Leica S2 side-by-side with D3x and 645AFD

[Lars]

...just look at the switch for the exposure method. In the R8 it was perfectly integrated underneath the time wheel - where is it on the F5 (or D3x)? At the side of the prism, who came up with this idea? Just because there was space left?
...

The F5 (and earlier F series) had replaceable finders. The matrix metering technology was inside the finder, so from that standpoint it made sense from an engineering design perspective. Other F5 finders have other kinds of metering and lack this button.

This design stuck because people liked it. the switch is highly tactile - you can feel with your finger what metering you have set, no need to use eyes. The location of the metering mode switch makes it easy to reach, while at the same time being out of the way. In fact it's a great example of good industrial design where form follows function.

 

[Lars]

The S2 is menu-based, the buttons are "case-sensitive" or programmable. YOU choose which buttons you always need and program them - the primary controls are clean and intuitive - the camera feels "organic".

While that sounds great, an interface that is based on a display for determining the function of a button does require a two-way communication - the user needs to look at the device to control it. This works for some kinds of devices but it's not a good idea for a camera where the photographer needs to look through the viewfinder, or a car where the driver needs to keep eyes on the road.

 

[jonoslack]

While that sounds great, an interface that is based on a display for determining the function of a button does require a two-way communication - the user needs to look at the device to control it. This works for some kinds of devices but it's not a good idea for a camera where the photographer needs to look through the viewfinder, or a car where the driver needs to keep eyes on the road.

Not as long as you remember how you've programmed it!
The buttons on the D3x have labels too - you don't have to look at them if you know where they are!

 

[LJL]

Tend to agree with Jono on this. I instinctively know which buttons I need to press on my 1-series cameras while still looking through the viewfinder....even the odd multihand ISO changes. Once you know where things are and what directions to move things, it gets pretty easy.....but it will be a retraining process. The simplicity of the S2 controls appears nice, and I imagine, with careful programming of buttons, one will be able to make changes on the fly without looking away from the finder, but that remains to be seen.

LJ

 

[Guy Mancuso]

When I played with the S2 it was confusing how the buttons where set up but that also was me being used to the Phase backs being different. Also not final firmware either. Be nice and not sure that you can program the 4 buttons they way you like.

 

[Lars]

Not as long as you remember how you've programmed it!
The buttons on the D3x have labels too - you don't have to look at them if you know where they are!

Sure. But with only four buttons and a need for controlling a dozen or so parameters you'll need a menu system anyway. I'd say it would be OK on a MF camera but AF adds complexity.

 

[PeterA]

One question i have about the S2 is related to size and hand holding.

I wonder just how 'easy' it will be to get hand held seriously sharp in focus shots?

you have 40 megapixels AND heavy ( relatively slow by fast 35mm standards ) lenses hanging off an slr body..

thats a lot of resolving power with no anti-shake or image stabilisation technology either..

I cant shoot a 1dsmk11 hand held at low shutter speeds with only 16 megapixels and get seriously sharp pics ...

then I am thinking - hmm but leica make beautiful wide angle lenses - then I say to myself - what better than my Schneiders? Easier to hand hold at really low shutter speeds than on an Alpa? - no way...

nope.

then I ask myself what about tele? and I look at lens range and see hmm no tele and good luck if you think you can hold 40 megapixels in anything except really really FAT light - bye bye landscape work and anyway high end landscape stuff is now teh Phase One p65+ a LOT more resolution again

so if it s a tripod camera..hmm what do I get exactly?

if it is a studio camera - what does it give me that any existing MFD back doesn't..

So many difficult to answer questions..

Maybe there is a niche there for an SLR body and Leica lenses with 40 megapixels. It isnt wide angle shooting and it isnt tele shooting and it wont be hand held ex studio lights shooting either...

Still - I want one - just because...:ROTFL::ROTFL:

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Still - I want one - just because...:ROTFL::ROTFL:

Gear slut comes to mind :ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL:

 

[rmueller]

Hi,

I wonder why people are not complaining about the position (and functions) of the exposure wheel located at the very top of the camera. I somehow prefer two small wheels for aperture and exposure, one located close to the right thumb and the other close to the shutter.
I see that might not be an issue with Aperture Priority but then how would I do
exposure compensation (in say 1/3 or 1/2 meter steps) ?
Somehow I'm not sure this device is for me, it looks slick but seems to lack some of
the usability features modern AF cameras have today, hope I'm proven wrong here and
the Leica designers made their homework.

Just my 2 cents,
Ralf

 

[LJL]

Peter,
I wrestle with some of the same sorts of questions. In my thinking, the S2 is not a direct replacement for a fast DSLR, and I am not sure I would really want to use it that way. With 38MP sized files, fast action does not seem to be its calling, just as it is not with any MFDB today. Leica originally, and still targets the S2 to studio, portrait, fashion, wedding and a few other shooters, from what they have said. Does not mean it cannot work as a landscape camera, but for most of that, folks would be using a tripod anyway, so no change. The lens line-up underscores its "niche" of sorts, but it does look like it will cover the needs of that target group of shooters for the most part.

The slightly smaller than MF sensor means a smaller mirror box also, so mirror slap should be less than other MF systems, thus reducing some vibration issues. The lenses may look heavy, but are they really that heavy for their design? Not hearing much feedback from folks that have handled them on whether they really are heavy glass or just look heavy in the images.

I agree that it will probably not be the speedy shooter that some DSLRs are today, but I really do not think sharp images will be too much a problem with it hand held either. I really have no way of knowing for sure yet....just my thoughts. I really do not see the S2 as a "tripod" camera. I see it as a more nimble DSLR-like rig that may produce superb MF images....but that is partly my hope for it also ;-)

LJ

 

[ddk]

Boy what a tough crowd!

Here's a chance at getting a brand new and MODERN MF system designed from ground up and by Leica no less, yet there are already complaints about lack of buttons before its even out. I don't know what you guys do with your cameras for a shoot outside of WB, ISO, and sometimes Quality/Size or a useless Profile selection with MFDBs that you need more than 4 buttons? On playback surely 4 buttons can easily take care of zooming and histo views.

Leica be warned, you wont be able to get anything past this crowd here!

 

[Paratom]

The S2 is not a light camera. If we can handhold our Mamiyas and Hy6 and AFI and Hassy etc why should it not be possible with the S2 system?
Compared to the Alpa you would gain the ability to compose in the viewfinder and to precisly focus.
I think the S2 is not a "breaking news" system in one area but more like small improvements in various ways:
-a little bit smaller
-a little bit better lenses
-leaf shutter and focal plane shutter
-a little bit more compfortable in hand (?)
-a little bit faster
-weather proof
- a little bit more expensive

So maybe its the combination of all the slight (eventual) advantages which makes it interesting

One question i have about the S2 is related to size and hand holding.

I wonder just how 'easy' it will be to get hand held seriously sharp in focus shots?

you have 40 megapixels AND heavy ( relatively slow by fast 35mm standards ) lenses hanging off an slr body..

thats a lot of resolving power with no anti-shake or image stabilisation technology either..

I cant shoot a 1dsmk11 hand held at low shutter speeds with only 16 megapixels and get seriously sharp pics ...

then I am thinking - hmm but leica make beautiful wide angle lenses - then I say to myself - what better than my Schneiders? Easier to hand hold at really low shutter speeds than on an Alpa? - no way...

nope.

then I ask myself what about tele? and I look at lens range and see hmm no tele and good luck if you think you can hold 40 megapixels in anything except really really FAT light - bye bye landscape work and anyway high end landscape stuff is now teh Phase One p65+ a LOT more resolution again

so if it s a tripod camera..hmm what do I get exactly?

if it is a studio camera - what does it give me that any existing MFD back doesn't..

So many difficult to answer questions..

Maybe there is a niche there for an SLR body and Leica lenses with 40 megapixels. It isnt wide angle shooting and it isnt tele shooting and it wont be hand held ex studio lights shooting either...

Still - I want one - just because...:ROTFL::ROTFL:

 

[ptomsu]

Folks,

all these discussions about IS, too many MP or too less MP, too heavy or not ....

I am shooting since almost 40 years now, since the beginning with all different types of DSLRs (Nikon, Canon, Leica, Olympus) with stabilized and non-stabilized lenses, and I almost never had problems of getting unsharp pictures without IS.

IS helps, weight helps, less vibrations from mirror and shutter help, but as I said I actually do not know these problems. Once I run into such a problem it is usually my own fault and I did the mistake in too long exposure time for the lens or not using a tripod in the right way etc....

Have used Hasselblad V system, Contax 645 and Rollei 6006 and also never had these issues even when handheld. I even used Hasselblad SWC wide angle camera for shooting out of a heavy motorized helicopter and did not have issues with sharpness etc.

I think we are overhyping here. I know I can make sharp handheld pictures with a Phase camera and a P45+ or a P65+ back, I was using this equipment first time and did NOT need a tripod. Of course I would take a tripod if I did landscapes etc, but all in the respective area of use.

So I think - and knowing Leica - I am almost sure that they have done their homework and built a beautifully quiet and vibration free camera, which can be nicely held to achieve sharp results under a large number of conditions. I would not go as far as using this camera predominantly for available light work of course, but in most situations, where you can do good work as an average good photographer you should be able to do even better with the S2.

As I said, I fear this system will have other issues - like support and quality of the product from the beginning, but I do not doubt even a little bit about the great technical concept. Realization of this concept is the big question mark.

 

[georgl]

You program one or two of the buttons of the S2 to control ISO, then you have direct access to every important function.

Only half of the buttons of the Nikon are reacheable with the eye on the viewfinder, various positions/shapes of buttons spread all around the body. Why is there a switch with three different positions (C/S/M) on the front, you have to turn the camera around to see the switch! Ok, so the metering switch was positioned on the prism because of technical restrictions but they don't use changeable viewfinders anymore, but the switch stayed on it's position - because people got used to it.
That's what I like about the S2: it started on a blank paper, I'm sure people who got used to the quite different concepts of Nikon/Canon will need some time with the S2, but in the end it's better to leave traditionalism behind.

You have basic functions you'll always need but some functions are rarely needed and I don't think you can justify an extra button/switch for every of those functions, because they're just too many in the end and have to be positioned somewhere, even in unergonomic locations. The S2 puts those rarely used functions in the menus - I'm fine with that.

 

[bradhusick]

I don't plan to replace my Canon / long IS lenses with the S2.

That's what I am waiting for the R10 system to do. And no, I don't know anything more about it than the rest of you do.

Brad

 

[carstenw]

Sure. But with only four buttons and a need for controlling a dozen or so parameters you'll need a menu system anyway. I'd say it would be OK on a MF camera but AF adds complexity.

Do you really modify a "dozen or so parameters" during a shoot? There is no need to move everything to a button, just those things you want to change while pressed for time, i.e. while shooting. The camera can be comfortably set up with most of the parameters before the shooting gets going.

Or do you somehow use your camera differently?

IMO, one of the things Canon and Nikon get wrong is to move so much onto buttons, whether it is relevant for a shoot or just for general setup. The interfaces are incredibly cluttered. Who switches between spot and matrix metering during a shoot? Similarly with locking photos (one dedicated button on the D3x!), recording an audio message for a photo, changing JPG quality, deleting images, and so on. There are many functions on cameras like the 1Ds3 and D3x which would be very well handled by soft-buttons with programmable or context-sensitive buttons.

The S2 is very minimal, true, but it remains to be seen if that really impacts real-world workflow. One would need to use it in anger before really knowing.

 

[ptomsu]

WRT buttons and individual controls:

I would love a few buttons which can be individually programmed, which is in case of the Phase backs as well as the S2 how it seems to work.

I HATE all the knobs and buttons on the D3 series from Nikon - one of the reasons why I am finally selling this system. They did not learn, they are just repeating and making the whole Pro concept pretty ugly every time they come with a new body

I like much more what Canon does (did) with their 1DsMkxyz series and they also align this nicely over their complete DSLR range.

I think that Leica is doing pretty right in this direction. There might also be some more changes in the future, there might be a S2v2 which could get additional controls, or they might just change the functionality via firmware.

So I think such a concept is something slowly evolving over the years and hopefully improving. BUT the right starting point needs to be there from the beginning, which seems to be the case with the S2.

 

[LJL]

Carsten,
I think for the more casual shooter or the pros that do mostly one thing, your comments about setting things up beforehand works very well. However, if you ever have to do a lot of photojournalist style shooting (even weddings now), you are moving from good to marginal to horrid lighting very quickly, so things can change dramatically. And PJs and sports shooters themselves have very differing demands. Sometimes they need to get a small JPEG out right NOW for broadcast. (I watched the Preakness this weekend, and at the news break just after the race, there were a couple of shots of the philly winning being displayed. That takes immediate download via WiFi and similarly near instant upload to the wire services. No time for processing, or even resizing. Sending a small JPEG to one service while planning a larger JPEG of the next shot to another service and still collecting the RAW shots for later magazine publications is pretty normal nowadays.)

Besides, the Nikons and Canons are selling to a much, much larger base of users, so familiarity and demand is probably much broader than what is normally seen is MF, with respect to controls and operation. Not saying one is better or worse than the other, but the user bases for the gear may be dramatically different. Buttons are good for folks that may not have a lot of familiarity with menus and programable stuff. Less buttons is sleek, but it does require a bit more investment in learning the camera system, and as we all know, lots of folks never read the manual ;-)

Personally, I know I can get used to whatever I need to use. I might complain and curse a few times early on, but it all becomes second nature rather quickly. The more you use it, the more familiar and easy it becomes, regardless of the set-up.

LJ

 

[Paratom]

Well, seems there are really different approaches and different taste.
I still believe that I am faster with direct access to important functions. But I guess the S2 is also not planned to be a sportsshooter or reporter kind of camera.
As long as we dont have to go into the menue to release the shutter I am fine

 

[Lars]

Do you really modify a "dozen or so parameters" during a shoot? There is no need to move everything to a button, just those things you want to change while pressed for time, i.e. while shooting. The camera can be comfortably set up with most of the parameters before the shooting gets going.

Or do you somehow use your camera differently?

IMO, one of the things Canon and Nikon get wrong is to move so much onto buttons, whether it is relevant for a shoot or just for general setup. The interfaces are incredibly cluttered. Who switches between spot and matrix metering during a shoot? Similarly with locking photos (one dedicated button on the D3x!), recording an audio message for a photo, changing JPG quality, deleting images, and so on. There are many functions on cameras like the 1Ds3 and D3x which would be very well handled by soft-buttons with programmable or context-sensitive buttons.

The S2 is very minimal, true, but it remains to be seen if that really impacts real-world workflow. One would need to use it in anger before really knowing.

Let's see...
AF servo S/C/M
Eposure mode (A and M)
Flash compensation
Compensation
Metering type
Exposure lock
Bracketing on/off
ISO setting
Output Quality/Size/Type
DOF preview
AF on

Review
Lock image
Delete image
zoom & pan image

That'a about 15-18 buttons right there depending on how you count.

Changing metering between spot and matrix is crucial to understanding the dynamic range of a scene, To see where the highlights are WRT exposure. I use it all the time.

The lock button is a must, I almost couldn't live without it. The way I use it is as soon as I review images I lock the good ones, then every now and then do a delete all, which keeps the locked ones. This means I can tag keepers with one button press as soon as I take the viewfinder from my eye. If I had to use two buttons to lock an image then that would break the flow, making it cumbersome. If I had to assign one out of four soft buttons to "Lock Image" then what function would I lose as a tradeoff?

There are several buttons on the Nikons that are programmable or context-sensitive.

We all have our ways. If you judge the world around you by using yourself as reference then everyone else is an idiot. A discussion around product design cannot be based on your own needs and preferences only.

In the end, the reason Nikon and Canon designs are good is that they are proven over time, with tens of thousands of working pros. You might not like them, but you'd be in a minority. Leica S2 is at this point as far as we know between design study and production, but not even version one of a shpping product.