Leica S2 side-by-side with D3x and 645AFD

[Lars]

Well, seems there are really different approaches and different taste.
I still believe that I am faster with direct access to important functions. But I guess the S2 is also not planned to be a sportsshooter or reporter kind of camera.
As long as we dont have to go into the menue to release the shutter I am fine

Re direct access, here's an extreme example of "Form follows function": It's not pretty but nonetheless a design masterpiece.

 

[georgl]

"...Changing metering between spot and matrix is crucial..."

Ok, so please show us a picture of sombody just watching through the viewfinder, holding the camera and changing metering... I just want to see the ergonomic gymnastics necessary to reach the switch on the prism ;-)

A digital camera operates in at least two very different modes: "record" and "play" - my M8 has already six buttons surrounding the display which are useless during "record"-mode (just like N/C) - "soft"-buttons like those on the S2 make much more sense to me because they can be used with a different context in "record"-mode.

 

[Lars]

"...Changing metering between spot and matrix is crucial..."

Ok, so please show us a picture of sombody just watching through the viewfinder, holding the camera and changing metering... I just want to see the ergonomic gymnastics necessary to reach the switch on the prism ;-)

A digital camera operates in at least two very different modes: "record" and "play" - my M8 has already six buttons surrounding the display which are useless during "record"-mode (just like N/C) - "soft"-buttons like those on the S2 make much more sense to me because they can be used with a different context in "record"-mode.

This is getting ridiculous... On the D700, place your thumb on the metering mode wheel and turn. On D3, use your index finger. Duh.

 

[georgl]

Isn't the switch on the prism the only way to change metering modes or are we talking about two different things?

I handled it on Photokina and was unable to reach this switch while holding the camera for shooting - that's what I instantly noticed in comparison to my R8.

 

[carstenw]

If you really use 15-18 buttons during the average shoot, I would guess that you are rather unusual. Some of the buttons you listed are every-day buttons, others are surely once-a-month buttons. I don't want to go point-by-point with you, although I disagree with the need for some of those, because needs and preferences are different.

Suffice it to say that your statement that "Nikon and Canon designs are good" is also a personal statement. I, and at least some others here, don't agree with that. I much prefer a minimal camera, much like the DMR was, and find the typical Nikon/Canon/Sony incredibly cluttered, to the point where it interferes with my vision. I keep a clearer head, I know what I am changing much more on a DMR or my Contax 645 than on something like my 5D (which I sold; didn't like it).

Horses for courses. The S2 is not meant to be a photo-journalist tool, nor a sports-shooter's tool. Removing those two from the list of requirements changes the needs a lot. The popularity of the Contax 645 among studio pros tell me that the S2 will do just fine.

 

[carstenw]

Re direct access, here's an extreme example of "Form follows function": It's not pretty but nonetheless a design masterpiece.

And here is my preferred steering wheel:

There is a trend here I think the first wheel goes for ultra-high-tech, squeezing out every last little bit of performance with few other concerns. The second one has much more to do with the enjoyment of the process, and the quality of the experience, possibly at the cost of some ultimate performance.

 

[jonoslack]

There is a trend here I think the first wheel goes for ultra-high-tech, squeezing out every last little bit of performance with few other concerns. The second one has much more to do with the enjoyment of the process, and the quality of the experience, possibly at the cost of some ultimate performance.

Excellent Carsten
I think the issue might be that Lars uses his kit a lot more than I do.
I'm sure the Renault steering wheel is great - and, like the D3, having got it all figured it's really quick to do things. My problem is that if I don't need something for 3 weeks I've forgotten how to do it (of course, that could just be my problem).

 

[woodyspedden]

One question i have about the S2 is related to size and hand holding.

I wonder just how 'easy' it will be to get hand held seriously sharp in focus shots?

you have 40 megapixels AND heavy ( relatively slow by fast 35mm standards ) lenses hanging off an slr body..

thats a lot of resolving power with no anti-shake or image stabilisation technology either..

I cant shoot a 1dsmk11 hand held at low shutter speeds with only 16 megapixels and get seriously sharp pics ...

then I am thinking - hmm but leica make beautiful wide angle lenses - then I say to myself - what better than my Schneiders? Easier to hand hold at really low shutter speeds than on an Alpa? - no way...

nope.

then I ask myself what about tele? and I look at lens range and see hmm no tele and good luck if you think you can hold 40 megapixels in anything except really really FAT light - bye bye landscape work and anyway high end landscape stuff is now teh Phase One p65+ a LOT more resolution again

so if it s a tripod camera..hmm what do I get exactly?

if it is a studio camera - what does it give me that any existing MFD back doesn't..

So many difficult to answer questions..

Maybe there is a niche there for an SLR body and Leica lenses with 40 megapixels. It isnt wide angle shooting and it isnt tele shooting and it wont be hand held ex studio lights shooting either...

Still - I want one - just because...:ROTFL::ROTFL:

Hey Peter

You say no Tele but what about the 200 2.0 and the 400 2.8 or the 200-400 4.0 or the 500 4.0. Super expensive but surely these lenses are no slouches and reports compare the 200 2.0 to the wonderful Leica 180 2.0 which I owned and loved. I can't afford any of these beasties but I don't think they are at all anything but A class lenses. JMHO

Woody

 

[Paratom]

I think the S2 can not be compared with either the M or R series.
The upper 2 have manual focus and just a lot less functions. Therefore it works better to get along with few buttons and still have easy menus.
I find it much easier to remember and immendiatly understand 90% of the buttons, but I have more problems remembering custom funtions etc. in the menue.

 

[tetsrfun]

And here is my preferred steering wheel:

There is a trend here I think the first wheel goes for ultra-high-tech, squeezing out every last little bit of performance with few other concerns. The second one has much more to do with the enjoyment of the process, and the quality of the experience, possibly at the cost of some ultimate performance.

And the third wheel is the interface between girl and horse:

 

[PeterA]

Hey Peter

You say no Tele but what about the 200 2.0 and the 400 2.8 or the 200-400 4.0 or the 500 4.0. Super expensive but surely these lenses are no slouches and reports compare the 200 2.0 to the wonderful Leica 180 2.0 which I owned and loved. I can't afford any of these beasties but I don't think they are at all anything but A class lenses. JMHO

Woody

Woody - I have no doubt at all that Leica make wonderful glass - as you well know I pretty much own or have owned everythign they have ever made. So yeah - that tele stuff you allude to is wonderful. However - I dont think that the S2 is a tele camera...and in the same way it wont be able to match Schneider or Rodenstock in wides....

My rumination is about the handholdability issue of teh S2. I have no doubt that it will be easier than current MF systems - but still there ar ea LOT of megapixels there. It isntlike I dont have steady hands still I can still shoot a rabbit or a fox @ 200 meters with my Blaser.

I think ljl makes the point that the S2 is aimed at the fashion/portrait/wedding /studio shooter - perhaps a more elegant solution that the legacy MF glass systems we are using now.

what is NOT in doubt is that it will be the sexiest most beautiful kit around! :bugeyes:

I am a gear slut as Guys says - a lot of teh stuff I buy is because I liek teh engineering and teh look and fondle factor - I am not and hav enever been ashamed of saying that.

 

[bradhusick]

too many spokes in that porsche wheel. all you need is one:

 

[Terry]

Let's see...
AF servo S/C/M
Eposure mode (A and M)
Flash compensation
Compensation
Metering type
Exposure lock
Bracketing on/off
ISO setting
Output Quality/Size/Type
DOF preview
AF on

Review
Lock image
Delete image
zoom & pan image

That'a about 15-18 buttons right there depending on how you count.

Changing metering between spot and matrix is crucial to understanding the dynamic range of a scene, To see where the highlights are WRT exposure. I use it all the time.

The lock button is a must, I almost couldn't live without it. The way I use it is as soon as I review images I lock the good ones, then every now and then do a delete all, which keeps the locked ones. This means I can tag keepers with one button press as soon as I take the viewfinder from my eye. If I had to use two buttons to lock an image then that would break the flow, making it cumbersome. If I had to assign one out of four soft buttons to "Lock Image" then what function would I lose as a tradeoff?

There are several buttons on the Nikons that are programmable or context-sensitive.

We all have our ways. If you judge the world around you by using yourself as reference then everyone else is an idiot. A discussion around product design cannot be based on your own needs and preferences only.

In the end, the reason Nikon and Canon designs are good is that they are proven over time, with tens of thousands of working pros. You might not like them, but you'd be in a minority. Leica S2 is at this point as far as we know between design study and production, but not even version one of a shpping product.

Now take a woman's sized hand and try to change some of these buttons....Most of the buttons on the D700 I can't change without pulling the camera away from my eye.

 

[ptomsu]

Now take a woman's sized hand and try to change some of these buttons....Most of the buttons on the D700 I can't change without pulling the camera away from my eye.

Being a guy and having rather large hands - I also have to take my D3 from the eye to change anything. Simply not possible without looking on these 100es buttons to find the right one.

Canon comes much closer to the concept of aligning useful and reachable buttons which can be operated also in blind way

 

[Lars]

Suffice it to say that your statement that "Nikon and Canon designs are good" is also a personal statement. I, and at least some others here, don't agree with that.

Not really. It's not me saying they are good designs, it's the pro market saying so. Nikon/Canon cameras outsell the rest of the pro market by a large margin. OTOH, your statement that you don't agree is indeed a personal statement.

 

[carstenw]

But Lars, we don't know *why* pros buy the Nikons and Canons in such large number. You presume it is because of the buttons. I presume it is because of the IQ combined with convenience, speed, and complete systems... The fact that they sell well doesn't make every aspect of their design perfect, and I would bet (if there were some way to resolve it) that for every owner who uses many of these buttons on every shoot, there are three who don't touch them, except for one or two.

Anyway, there really is no way to resolve this, so why don't we leave it? I hope for a Leica S2 with a dead-simple interface, you hope for more buttons: I won!

 

[ptomsu]

But Lars, we don't know *why* pros buy the Nikons and Canons in such large number. You presume it is because of the buttons. I presume it is because of the IQ combined with convenience, speed, and complete systems... The fact that they sell well doesn't make every aspect of their design perfect, and I would bet (if there were some way to resolve it) that for every owner who uses many of these buttons on every shoot, there are three who don't touch them, except for one or two.

Anyway, there really is no way to resolve this, so why don't we leave it? I hope for a Leica S2 with a dead-simple interface, you hope for more buttons: I won!

I am pretty sure the most important reason why Nikon and Canon Pro are sold is, because agencies are simply buying them in huge numbers and do not even think about asking the Pro's who have to work with that equipment if they like it or not.

Buying (or leasing) in large numbers is simply related on the best price at reasonable IQ. But be honest, what IQ do these agencies really need??? Even for printing double pages in nice glossy magazines these cameras all outperform what is needed

This is NOT the market the S2 or any other MF solution is aiming at!

 

[LJL]

Let me see if I am understanding this rather strange discussion or not. Are some of you guys seriously dismissing (or reveling) in an as yet unreleased camera/system because of the number, placement and style of control buttons??? Folks, get real. Do the lack or abundance of control buttons really make that much difference if the camera is able to be operated by the user after they gain familiarity with it?

I do understand personal preferences, but they do not make one design "better" or "worse" than another.....to the opposing individual maybe, but from a functional standpoint, they really do not. Sure, there is the ongoing beef about a lack of an easy to use MLU button on the Canon cameras (notably by complaints by Michael Reichmann in all of his reviews), but has that feature ever prevented folks from getting the shots and using the camera? Hardly.

I happen to presently shoot Canon, after shooting Nikon for 25 years or more. I also shot Minolta, Leica, Hasselblad, Exakta and others. Each had its own design and quirks for use. They all work quite well, and after using any of them for a bit of time, the placement and number of controls became second nature. Some things may be easier to use for some, but all the needed features were there and accessible to get the job done. Personally, I like uncluttered, but I also like practical functionality for the way I use things. My M8 is not a speed demon, nor does it have ready access to control features, except through the menu system, while my Canons have what some describe as obscure button combinations and stuff in order to change things. They both work. Neither is the epitome of design for utility, if there is such a thing. Use either for more than a few days, and everything is pretty easy to figure out and make it do what you need it to do. There is not "perfect camera", nor "perfect design" for use. All are design compromises or plans to accommodate the builder's objectives. In the case of Canon and Nikon, some things are vestigial carryovers, others are designed by committee to some extent. In the case of Leica, there is a drive toward sleekness and apparent simplicity or lack of clutter, but maybe at the expense of some greater utility by some users. Everything is that way....cars, steering wheels, radios, cell phones, etc. What is the big deal? We each have our personal preferences, but that surely does not make one design or function "better" or "worse" than another....just different.

LJ

 

[Ben Rubinstein]

I have my 5D in my hand. It certainly doesn't have a huge amount of controls. With that in mind I want to ask...

How do I have direct control over both shutter and aperture at the same time? This is such a basic concept that none but the most amatuer and basic SLR's leave this to only one wheel. Or if using aperture or shutter priority, how do I apply exposure compensation? The idea that a pro photographer would have to press a button then turn the wheel to do either of the things mentioned is shocking when even the mid range SLR's provide it as a given.

You can use a 4 button system on a back. I can see that. All you need is a menu and playback system. To expect those 4 buttons to also give you one button access to ISO/Shooting mode/exposure compensation/exposure lock/AF point selection - all things that are a one button or dial away on my simple 5D, that's giving a MF SLR less functionality than a Drebel. Who thought that was a good idea?

I can understand the want for simplicity. Losing the most basic of functionality to more than one button press away relegates this to a slow working camera. A studio camera. Certainly not a DSLR. If you can't change aperture and shutter speed at the same time or apply exposure compensation without hitting a button first then the idea that Leica is doing something new and different is a joke. It won't even have the ease of use of a D30, the first of the DSLR's.

 

[carstenw]

In shooting mode, the S2 has aperture on the wheel, and there is a dedicated shutter speed wheel on top. Applying exposure compensation can not be done without pushing a button on any DSLR I know of, unless I am missing something? The D3x has it under the right index finger, the +/- button. The 1Ds3 is the same. So I am not sure which camera you are referring to. The S2 has the same level of indirection for these controls as the top DSLRs.