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Thread: "Trade Up" from P45+ to P40+?

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    "Trade Up" from P45+ to P40+?

    This sounds like madness but I saw some comparison files at my dealer today and

    * The DR looks better
    * The 40's smaller sensor crops off the weakest parts of some lenses
    * The pixel binning means no more switching to another camera when the light drops
    * As far as I can see even without pixel binning, ISO 400 is very nice

    For which benefits I'd pay the cost of a smaller sensor and therefore less wide lenses. I'm not a great wide shooter anyway but I also think this will give me an advantage as an occasional tech cam user.

    I write this in haste, convinced that I must be missing something. But what?

    Best

    Tim

  2. #2
    ddk
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    Re: "Trade Up" from P45+ to P40+?

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    This sounds like madness but I saw some comparison files at my dealer today and

    * The DR looks better
    * The 40's smaller sensor crops off the weakest parts of some lenses
    * The pixel binning means no more switching to another camera when the light drops
    * As far as I can see even without pixel binning, ISO 400 is very nice

    For which benefits I'd pay the cost of a smaller sensor and therefore less wide lenses. I'm not a great wide shooter anyway but I also think this will give me an advantage as an occasional tech cam user.

    I write this in haste, convinced that I must be missing something. But what?

    Best

    Tim
    Long exposure is the first thing that comes to mind!

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: "Trade Up" from P45+ to P40+?

    Quote Originally Posted by ddk View Post
    Long exposure is the first thing that comes to mind!
    And binned pixels for ISO 800 and 1600 dropping your resolution to a rather meager 10MP for another...

    You missed faster framerates on the positive side though.
    Jack
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    Member Clawery's Avatar
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    Re: "Trade Up" from P45+ to P40+?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    And binned pixels for ISO 800 and 1600 dropping your resolution to a rather meager 10MP for another...

    You missed faster framerates on the positive side though.
    The frame rate for the P40+ is 1.2 fps @ full resolution and 1.8 fps w/ Sensor+. The P65+ offers 1.0 fps @ full resolution and 1.4 fps w/ Sensor+ enables. With these frame rates fashion shooters should be pretty happy!

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: "Trade Up" from P45+ to P40+?

    I guess that the ISO800 performance from unbinned captures (i.e. at full res) would have to be personally tested and compared but the shots my dealer showed me were very nice indeed. He also showed me side by sides of scenes with very subtle complex colours taken on P45+ and P40+ and the latter captured subtle gradations of colour that the former missed entirely.

    I'd not easily give up that longer exposure ability but one minute at ISO50 is 16 minutes at ISO 800 so not all would be lost, though the results far less impressive I'm sure. But I'm finding that indoor portraits lit by a window need slightly more than ISO200 to give enough DOF so that better unbinned performance is really tempting!

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    Re: "Trade Up" from P45+ to P40+?

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    I guess that the ISO800 performance from unbinned captures (i.e. at full res) would have to be personally tested and compared but the shots my dealer showed me were very nice indeed. He also showed me side by sides of scenes with very subtle complex colours taken on P45+ and P40+ and the latter captured subtle gradations of colour that the former missed entirely.

    I'd not easily give up that longer exposure ability but one minute at ISO50 is 16 minutes at ISO 800 so not all would be lost, though the results far less impressive I'm sure. But I'm finding that indoor portraits lit by a window need slightly more than ISO200 to give enough DOF so that better unbinned performance is really tempting!
    Capture Integration will be doing some testing on the long exposure capability of the P40+. The internal target was 1 minute at ISO200 and full resolution with clean high DR files. This will need to be born out in hands on testing though and we'll do that for everyone soon.

    Focus/composition and the tactile connection to the image are hindered *slightly* by the smaller sensor (which makes the viewfinder crop a bit more).

    You're right about the advantages you stated. The lower price is also nice. There are a few nice smaller advantages as well: built in tilt meter, b+w LCD view, LCD grids, in-back ratings, built-in FW protection door.

    Also, there seems to be some confusion: ISO 50-800 is the full-resolution range. ISO200-3200 is the Sensor+ 10mp range and from my quick comparisons the 10mp file looks roughly the same in actual resolved detail as from a 1Ds II (16mp). Thorough testing on both long exposure, high ISO, and comparisons to dSLRs are on the docket, but we have a lot on our plate currently. Of course anyone who would like to test for themselves is welcome at our facilities in either Atlanta or Miami or at the GetDPI.com workshop (I'll have a 40+ there).

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  7. #7
    ddk
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    To a Leaf maybe?

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    He also showed me side by sides of scenes with very subtle complex colours taken on P45+ and P40+ and the latter captured subtle gradations of colour that the former missed entirely.
    Tim,

    That difference in tonal/color range and depth is exactly what I noticed when I was trying to decide between Leaf and Phase systems.

    I don't know wether it has to do with Dalsa vs Kodak chips or the rest of the hardware/software that each company uses but I do see more subtle color gradations and a deeper range of tones in my Leaf files; of course when the exposure is spot on.

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    Senior Member kdphotography's Avatar
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    Re: "Trade Up" from P45+ to P40+?

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    * The DR looks better
    * The 40's smaller sensor crops off the weakest parts of some lenses
    * The pixel binning means no more switching to another camera when the light drops
    * As far as I can see even without pixel binning, ISO 400 is very nice
    I think you've summed up the P40+ pretty well, but I'm not completely sure of putting the P40+ as an upgrade or trading up from the P45+ so much as just moving to a different MFDB with different abilities. (Hey, pretty much all the MFDBs are good, right?)

    The achilles heel to the P40+ will be the same as the P65+----long exposures. My thinking is that although the current line of Sensor+ enabled backs can do an exposure up to about a minute----it's an entirely different animal to actually produce a high quality file (minimal post processing)at that length of exposure. And that's what I see as the big trade-off. Rather minor for me since 99% of my work really doesn't require such long exposures.

    ...go ahead, buy it!

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    Re: "Trade Up" from P45+ to P40+?

    That would jive with testing I did of my 1Ds2 against a friends DMR with same (Leica) lenses. The lack of an AA filter gave the DMR a 6MP 'edge' vs a 10MP cropped Nikon/Canon DSLR as it were. On screen at 100% the 1DS2 shots and DMR shots were on par in terms of detail resolved.

    "...and from my quick comparisons the 10mp file looks roughly the same in actual resolved detail as from a 1Ds II (16mp)"

  10. #10
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: "Trade Up" from P45+ to P40+?

    Long exposures is what you are giving up and also do adapt a crop sensor and as a P30+ owner yes my 28mm is sharper than a knife in the corners. LOL

    Basically this is the same as the P65 + with a Dalsa sensor which will render different than the Kodak not necessarily better or worse just different and yes you will gain about 1/3 a stop in DR over your 45+. Not sure I would call it a trade up but a lateral shift . I don't consider the P25 to P30 a upgrade myself but a lateral one
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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