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Thread: P1 645 vibration with 300mm lens

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    Senior Member etrump's Avatar
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    P1 645 vibration with 300mm lens

    I have both the M645 300mm f/5.6 and AF 300mm f/4.5. With both of these lens I get vibration in the image. This is using mirror lockup and waiting 6-8 seconds for everything to settle before firing the shutter. It seems the shutter itself is adding some vibration to the image.

    Putting manual pressure on the camera body helps but does not eliminate it in some circumstances. I am interested to know how others handle this problem especially with longer exposures. I am especially concerned because I am getting a P65+ next month which will exacerbate the problem.

    I had the same problem with the 300mm on the 645 AFDII as the P1 645 so it is I don't believe it is a camera problem.

    Thanks,
    Ed

  2. #2
    jmvdigital
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    Re: P1 645 vibration with 300mm lens

    What tripod and head are you using? I was having similar problems with my 150mm with extension tubes. I upgraded to a Gitzo Systematic tripod and an RRS BH-55 ball head... problem solved.

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: P1 645 vibration with 300mm lens

    Have to use a good tripod like a Gitzo 3 series or equivalent, a good head like an Arca B1, RRS BH55 or equivalent, and make sure all of your QR plates and clamps are TIGHTLY mounted to the camera body, and clamps are TIGHTLY secured to the head. Next, NEVER shoot with a center column on the tripod extended even an inch, and better if you don't even have a center column on your pod.

    Then once you have all that absolutely confirmed, try to primarily avoid 1/15th second and secondarily avoid 1/8th and 1/30th on either side as these are the most problematic shutter speeds.
    Jack
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    Senior Member etrump's Avatar
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    Re: P1 645 vibration with 300mm lens

    I use a Gitzo 1325 which has no center column and RRS BH-55 head. I will double check everything but I am pretty sure it is tight.

    Jack, Your shutters speeds limitations make sense. The attached image was 1/20th and is unusable for print (not that the light is that great). If I understand you right avoid shutter speeds between 1/8th and 1/30th of a second? If so, then any focal length will be somewhat impacted but not as noticeable.

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: P1 645 vibration with 300mm lens

    Quote Originally Posted by etrump View Post
    If I understand you right avoid shutter speeds between 1/8th and 1/30th of a second? If so, then any focal length will be somewhat impacted but not as noticeable.
    Absolutely correct. In addition to longer focal and higher resultant image magnification, it is also the the increase in mass and moment of the 300 that accentuate the vibrations, so often that speed range is not nearly as detrimental with shorter lenses.
    Jack
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    Re: P1 645 vibration with 300mm lens

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Then once you have all that absolutely confirmed, try to primarily avoid 1/15th second and secondarily avoid 1/8th and 1/30th on either side as these are the most problematic shutter speeds.
    Jack, does this apply to all focal length or especially to long lenses? I've never heard about that... but my longest lens is a 120mm.
    Thanks!
    Regards,Thomas

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: P1 645 vibration with 300mm lens

    Thomas,

    It affects all focals, but per my comment directly above yours, it affects shorter focals less. Even with the 120 however, I would avoid 1/15th to insure the sharpest image possible.
    Jack
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    Re: P1 645 vibration with 300mm lens

    The longer the focal length the quicker vibrations from the tripod and the lens enters into it; you may end up with yet another problem of mirage that could affect the finished image.

    I've had the camera body locked down tight and still got vibrations off the lens that was hanging off.

    The faster you can shoot the better you are in combating the effects of vibration.

    Agree w/Jack this occurs at all focal lengths however you see it more with longer lens.

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    Re: P1 645 vibration with 300mm lens

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    It affects all focals, but per my comment directly above yours, it affects shorter focals less. Even with the 120 however, I would avoid 1/15th to insure the sharpest image possible.
    wow! thanks a lot. Actually makes sense if you think about it but I really wasn't aware of that.
    Thanks again!
    Thomas

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: P1 645 vibration with 300mm lens

    The other thing, with your 120 focused down in the macro range, it starts behaving more like a longer tele
    Jack
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    Re: P1 645 vibration with 300mm lens

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    The other thing, with your 120 focused down in the macro range, it starts behaving more like a longer tele
    :-)) okay!
    I use the macro range indoors with a lots of light and tethered... so this seems to be not an issue for the things I do.
    Anyway: good to know!
    Regards, Thomas

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    Re: P1 645 vibration with 300mm lens

    There was a considerable thread on this on L-L but I can't remember where - MR and I had the same problem on a shoot as described here. I recommend NOT using the lens' tripod mount because it balances too well - you need inertia so I use the camera mount. (The lens is not very heavy and won't hurt the mount.)

    I find any exposure longer than 1/100th problematic, even with a very solid tripod/head, weight suspended from tripod/sandbag draped over lens.

    Mount a laser pointer on the lens and watch the red blob move with the shutter motion! It is clearly the "every action has a reaction" of the focal plane shutter. MLU is a must, but the mirror is not the souce of the problem

    Bill

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    Senior Member etrump's Avatar
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    Re: P1 645 vibration with 300mm lens

    Interesting comment about not using the lens mounted tripod collar. I will try that.

    Is this a result of the shutter curtains and would it be reduced by a leaf shutter lens?

    With the laser pointer, it would be difficult to tell the difference between the shutter vibration and mirror dropping down. I guess you could do a long exposure and watch the initial vibration.

    Makes me glad I have the Cambo with the P65 on order.

    Useful information, thanks Jack and Bill.

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    Re: P1 645 vibration with 300mm lens

    Quote Originally Posted by etrump View Post

    Is this a result of the shutter curtains and would it be reduced by a leaf shutter lens?
    It is my personal opinion that this is the case, by a significant amount.

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    Re: P1 645 vibration with 300mm lens

    Quote Originally Posted by David Grover / Hasselblad View Post
    It is my personal opinion that this is the case, by a significant amount.
    I'd go further than David and say that it is demonstrable fact.

    High-End photography is all about trade-offs. With every positive you gain you give up something else. If your main style of photography is with an ultra long lens then you are better off with a leaf shutter lens MF system (e.g. a Phase One back on a Hasselblad H2 body) or a dSLR (smaller shutter and image stabilization).

    Note that the HC300mm is 1.5 pounds heavier than the Mamiya 300mm (both f/4.5 lenses) and 3 pounds heavier than the Mamiya 210mm (f/4) and uses a large 95mm filter size (the Mamiya uses a 77mm filter size) which is one of the disadvantages of including a leaf shutter in each lens (it increases the overall mass and size of any given design).

    That said it is absolutely possible, with good technique and following the advice above, to use the long Mamiya glass with extremely sharp results.

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    Re: P1 645 vibration with 300mm lens

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    I'd go further than David and say that it is demonstrable fact...

    (e.g. a Phase One back on a Hasselblad H2 body)...
    Or even better an H3D!

    (Thanks Doug)

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    Senior Member etrump's Avatar
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    Re: P1 645 vibration with 300mm lens

    My main style is not 300mm but there are times when the image you want requires 300mm.

    I haven't had time to test yet, but if it is just a matter of avoiding a specific range of exposures than I can live with that. A slight aperture, iso or ND change is always an option.

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    Re: P1 645 vibration with 300mm lens

    Does a 300mm Hasselblad lens with a leaf shutter perform better at "problematic" shutter speeds than the Mamiya 300mm lens apparently does? David Grover says so, but what's that worth? He works for the competition. So, I have attached two jpegs, one is a jpeg showing the full frame of a photograph I took last Fall at Acadia with the H3D-39 and a 300mm HC lens at f/9 and 1/10 second, the other is a crop of a very small area of the file. (Nothing special to stabilize the camera; a Gitzo 1348 and an Arca Swiss ballhead.)It is from the center of the image and is amazingly sharp and contrasty, but I think the corners are also remarkably sharp. There are evergreen trees in the photograph, and on my screen I can make out the texture of the foliage on those trees.
    Anyone spending $40k on a P65 has the right to demand way better, and not be told that a 300mm lens is a "super telephoto" with limited application in landscape work, so don't worry about the abysmal performance. A 300mm lens for 645 is the equivalent of a 200mm lens for 35mm dslrs. I use this lens extensively in shooting landscapes, way more than my 35mm lens.
    BTW, I knew this lens would be sharp. I bought it from Steve Hendrix, and he said it was exceptional.

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: P1 645 vibration with 300mm lens

    Cannot say if finally a Hassi 300 works better than a Mamiya 300, it will depend how wise you use your system.

    What helps with Hasselblad is for sure

    1) leaf shutter
    2) pre release of mirror, which is configurable up to a few 100 milliseconds in the H3D2

    So it might be easier to get good results with the Hasselblad than with the Mamiya I assume.

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    Re: P1 645 vibration with 300mm lens

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Cannot say if finally a Hassi 300 works better than a Mamiya 300, it will depend how wise you use your system.

    What helps with Hasselblad is for sure

    1) leaf shutter
    2) pre release of mirror, which is configurable up to a few 100 milliseconds in the H3D2

    So it might be easier to get good results with the Hasselblad than with the Mamiya I assume.
    I would say you assume correct.

    As well as a pre release you could also use the self timer (highly configurable) or simply lock the mirror and use the electronic release.

    Mirror Up control can be placed on one of four buttons depending on your ergonomic preference.

    David

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    Re: P1 645 vibration with 300mm lens

    Quote Originally Posted by hcubell View Post
    Does a 300mm Hasselblad lens with a leaf shutter perform better at "problematic" shutter speeds than the Mamiya 300mm lens apparently does?
    Thanks for proving the point Howard.

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