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Thread: Blimey, new 'Phase look-alikes' with LIVE PREVIEW!

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Blimey, new 'Phase look-alikes' with LIVE PREVIEW!

    Now this is interesting in about a thousand ways...

    http://www.dpreview.com/news/0906/09...gitalbacks.asp

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    Re: Blimey, new 'Phase look-alikes' with LIVE PREVIEW!

    OR re-badged P20+, P25+ and P30+ for the EU market?

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    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Blimey, new 'Phase look-alikes' with LIVE PREVIEW!

    Hmm, you can get a Sinar e54LV for nearly half the price of the M22. The Sinar has a 3 year warranty, live view, adapter options, built-in solid state memory (3GB I think), 1s per frame v 1.5s for the M22. That's what I call a no-brainer

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    Re: Blimey, new 'Phase look-alikes' with LIVE PREVIEW!

    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    That's what I call a no-brainer
    a no-brainer is a product of a healthy company.
    The e54LV might be a no-brainer price-wise.

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    Re: Blimey, new 'Phase look-alikes' with LIVE PREVIEW!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    re-badged P20+
    P21+ ;-)

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Blimey, new 'Phase look-alikes' with LIVE PREVIEW!

    Here I thought the 9 micron sensor was no longer being made. Sounds more like a rebirth /rebadge.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Blimey, new 'Phase look-alikes' with LIVE PREVIEW!

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    a no-brainer is a product of a healthy company.
    The e54LV might be a no-brainer price-wise.
    Jenoptik makes the Sinar backs (and owns Sinar). Last I heard they were making an annual profit in the region of $1bn - actually the most healthy of all MFDB makers.

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    Re: Blimey, new 'Phase look-alikes' with LIVE PREVIEW!

    I think you'll find this is Phase's way of clearing "old" stock of backs at very sharp pricing without hurting their brand.
    Nick-T

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    Re: Blimey, new 'Phase look-alikes' with LIVE PREVIEW!

    thomas - Sometimes I feel like we are more speculating about worst case scenarios of MF-back and camera manufacturers vs. discussing the equipment and photography. In one way it might include some interesting and important information but mostly it becomes a lot of negative speculation.
    I go further and my theory is that this pessimistic way of thinking and speculating and talking things bad is one of the reasons why the economical and financial crisis has come so fast and massive. I wonder why many people are so pessimistic those days. It almost seems that its more fun to discuss the bad things vs discussing the good things. Like rather discussing the posibility a back manufacturer might get some financial problems vs discussing the output of the back, rather discussing Leica M8 flaws vs the great IQ this little camera delivers, etc etc. I wonder why.

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Blimey, new 'Phase look-alikes' with LIVE PREVIEW!

    To me, ...."2.2" LCDs featuring a Live Preview mode" implies that the preview is available on the LCD, which if these are merely the re-badged items they appear to be clearly isn't the case... anyone know any more?

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    Re: Blimey, new 'Phase look-alikes' with LIVE PREVIEW!

    I think the live-preview on the lcd is wishful thinking on our part. I'd think that if Phase One had this capability we'd certainly hear about it and not on a Mamiya badged back. Of course I've been wrong before - just ask my wife...


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    Senior Member etrump's Avatar
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    Re: Blimey, new 'Phase look-alikes' with LIVE PREVIEW!

    According to Doug at Capture Integration the live preview is the same as the phase backs.

    Not LCD live preview but tethered preview on the computer screen.

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    Re: Blimey, new 'Phase look-alikes' with LIVE PREVIEW!

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    To me, ...."2.2" LCDs featuring a Live Preview mode" implies that the preview is available on the LCD, which if these are merely the re-badged items they appear to be clearly isn't the case... anyone know any more?
    The phrasing was likely the result of a press release written not-in-English and then translated into English.

    These backs do NOT have on-LCD Live Preview (authoritative and absolutely certain statement).

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    Re: Blimey, new 'Phase look-alikes' with LIVE PREVIEW!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    OR re-badged P20+, P25+ and P30+ for the EU market?

    ,
    Actually, they are re-badged P21+, P25+, and P30+ for the global market, including the USA. I got a MAC Group dealer memo a few days ago telling me of the "new" Mamiya backs with the next line reading, "yes, they are Phase backs."

    Not sure of USA pricing yet, but they are going to be sold through any and all Mamiya digital dealers who want them.

    Obviously missing in the lineup are P45+ and new P40+ and P65+. This is an interesting approach by Mamiya and Phase. First the Mamiya 645AFDIII got re-badged as the PhaseOne 645AFD, then the lenses became Phase One, now it's going to other way with Phase One backs getting the Mamiya moniker.

    When I get pricing, I'll post info.

    As an interesting footnote, I just received another MAC Group dealer memo just a few minutes ago about refurb/demo DL28 and DL33 kits (with Leaf Aptus backs) for $9,995 and $12,995 respectively. So, this Mamiya/Leaf arrangement might be coming to an end (unsurprisingly).

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    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: Blimey, new 'Phase look-alikes' with LIVE PREVIEW!

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post

    Not sure of USA pricing yet, but they are going to be sold through any and all Mamiya digital dealers who want them.

    Not necessarily.

    Also, I would say that Mac Group is jumping the gun a bit. There is much that has not been finalized.


    Steve Hendrix/Phase One

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    Subscriber gogopix's Avatar
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    Re: Blimey, new 'Phase look-alikes' with LIVE PREVIEW!

    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    Jenoptik makes the Sinar backs (and owns Sinar). Last I heard they were making an annual profit in the region of $1bn - actually the most healthy of all MFDB makers.
    $1Bn profit would have been nice, but
    it wasn't so.
    actually DID make some money about $15million. Turnover in 2008 was under $1Bn ($3/4 B)
    2009 will be an interesting year to watch for all.

    Victor

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    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: Blimey, new 'Phase look-alikes' with LIVE PREVIEW!

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    $1Bn profit would have been nice, but
    it wasn't so.
    actually DID make some money about $15million. Turnover in 2008 was under $1Bn ($3/4 B)
    2009 will be an interesting year to watch for all.

    Victor

    Is this for the Sinar division or Jenoptik overall?


    Steve Hendrix
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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Blimey, new 'Phase look-alikes' with LIVE PREVIEW!

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix/Phase One View Post
    Not necessarily.

    Also, I would say that Mac Group is jumping the gun a bit. There is much that has not been finalized.


    Steve Hendrix/Phase One
    Exactly what I heard also Steve. NOTHING is final
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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Blimey, new 'Phase look-alikes' with LIVE PREVIEW!

    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    Jenoptik makes the Sinar backs (and owns Sinar). Last I heard they were making an annual profit in the region of $1bn - actually the most healthy of all MFDB makers.
    Sorry but your talking Jenopik as a whole company , Sinar is a very small piece of it. Jenoptik has it's hands in many many things. Break the Sinar part off of it and it maybe a different story altogether. Could actually be running at a loss.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Blimey, new 'Phase look-alikes' with LIVE PREVIEW!

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Sorry but your talking Jenopik as a whole company , Sinar is a very small piece of it. Jenoptik has it's hands in many many things. Break the Sinar part off of it and it maybe a different story altogether. Could actually be running at a loss.
    I was correcting the inference that Sinar backs were made by a company on the verge of bankruptcy. This is far from the truth. And yes of course they are involved in many other activities but that's the whole point - it's a diverse and healthy company making these backs.

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    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Blimey, new 'Phase look-alikes' with LIVE PREVIEW!

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    $1Bn profit would have been nice, but
    it wasn't so.
    actually DID make some money about $15million. Turnover in 2008 was under $1Bn ($3/4 B)
    2009 will be an interesting year to watch for all.

    Victor
    Thanks for correction. Yes I meant sales, not profit - they made an EBIT of $50 million in 2008.

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    Re: Blimey, new 'Phase look-alikes' with LIVE PREVIEW!

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    thomas - Sometimes I feel like we are more speculating about worst case scenarios of MF-back and camera manufacturers vs. discussing the equipment and photography. In one way it might include some interesting and important information but mostly it becomes a lot of negative speculation.
    I go further and my theory is that this pessimistic way of thinking and speculating and talking things bad is one of the reasons why the economical and financial crisis has come so fast and massive. I wonder why many people are so pessimistic those days. It almost seems that its more fun to discuss the bad things vs discussing the good things. Like rather discussing the posibility a back manufacturer might get some financial problems vs discussing the output of the back, rather discussing Leica M8 flaws vs the great IQ this little camera delivers, etc etc. I wonder why.
    Wonder why? Well, this gear is unbelievably expensive and pretty complex ... representing a huge financial decision in terms of system purchase and commitment on the part of the buyer. All at a time when most people are suffering from at least financial uncertainty, if not direct consequences of the economy. IF one is going to make the leap of faith I would think the health of the company they were going to commit their money to would be of some concern wouldn't you?

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    Re: Blimey, new 'Phase look-alikes' with LIVE PREVIEW!

    "t-streng": you are right (in part - the second passage is nonsense... at least as to me).
    and "fotografz": you are right as well ;-)

    My snippy comment wasn't meant so serious.
    It's just ... whenever there is something announced by Phase One (or in this case Mamiya) "foto-z" steps in and plays the part of a Sinar dealer or promoter. That's a bit annoying (and implicit it's a kind of negativity as well).
    Then again, yes, I care about future service and upgrade paths with regard to the DB (with regard to the camera I don't care so much). And - totally subjective - I feel more "safe" with Phase (or would feel more "safe" with Hasselblad) rather than with Sinar or even Leaf currently.

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    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Blimey, new 'Phase look-alikes' with LIVE PREVIEW!

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    It's just ... whenever there is something announced by Phase One (or in this case Mamiya) "foto-z" steps in and plays the part of a Sinar dealer or promoter. That's a bit annoying.
    Hmmm, I could point out that about half the forum members seem to be strongly biased towards a particular brand (I won't mention names) - why do you single me out? It's natural to recommend what you know, and I don't think it's an issue as long as you make a valid case, e.g. "If you are planning to do a lot of long exposures, then get a Phase" or "if you want the longest warranty get a Sinar" are constructive comments. "Buy brand XXX because I think they are awesome and all my friends have one" is not.

    Secondly, correcting incorrect statements or inferences is not playing a dealer - it is in everyone's interests to have the most correct information available. (Or even pointing out a MUCH better deal from a competitor). I don't see how anyone could object to that unless they had an agenda of their own. Again, I know more about Sinar products so I am naturally going to notice factually incorrect statements made about their products than for example Leaf. I have never been on Sinar's payroll, btw.
    Last edited by Graham Mitchell; 16th June 2009 at 04:09.

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    Re: Blimey, new 'Phase look-alikes' with LIVE PREVIEW!

    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    Hmmm, I could point out that about half the forum members seem to be strongly biased towards a particular brand
    that is certainly true.

    It's natural to recommend what you know, and I don't think it's an issue as long as you make a valid case, e.g. "If you are planning to do a lot of long exposures, then get a Phase" or "if you want the longest warranty get a Sinar" are constructive comments.
    yes, of course. But you comment even if none asks...

    Secondly, correcting incorrect statements or inferences is not playing a dealer - it is in everyone's interests to have the most correct information available.
    Again - you comment even a price list. There is nothing to "correct"... as long as the prices are "true".
    But tell me about these "adapter options" for the eM54LV (that count with additional ~ 1K officially). Is the adapter for, say, Mamiya or Contax included in the nearly "half of the price" of the M22? (I really don't know.)

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    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Blimey, new 'Phase look-alikes' with LIVE PREVIEW!

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    Again - you comment even a price list.
    Well as I said I do think it's in everyone's interest to be informed about cheaper deals on very similar products. If someone were about to buy a ballhead for $500 and I pointed out that an equally good ballhead with triple the warranty was available for $250, then I doubt anyone would complain - it would be seen as doing them a favour!

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    But tell me about these "adapter options" for the eM54LV (that count with additional ~ 1K officially). Is the adapter for, say, Mamiya or Contax included in the nearly "half of the price" of the M22? (I really don't know.)
    From the prices I've seen, the e54 is about 6K (ex tax, which is what pros would pay). The adapters range in price from about 465 to 1406 and would be extra unless you can do a deal.

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    Re: Blimey, new 'Phase look-alikes' with LIVE PREVIEW!

    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    I was correcting the inference that Sinar backs were made by a company on the verge of bankruptcy. This is far from the truth. And yes of course they are involved in many other activities but that's the whole point - it's a diverse and healthy company making these backs.
    It's the Sinar division that concerns me. Here in the States it always seems like a very quiet brand. We don't hear much about them outside the forums and such. Nothing like what goes on with Phase and Hassy. These brands seem to be in many stores both retail and dealers. I think Sinar is just more popular over in Europe than here. Just a perception that I believe we see.
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    Re: Blimey, new 'Phase look-alikes' with LIVE PREVIEW!



    if Phase One could ever 'make' anything like this ( instead of just piggybacking other people's work) - I might take thier stuff a tad more seriously.

    In the meantime I am too busy making shots and printing them with the stuff that works for me - to bother too much with the fan boy stuff.

    Cruel? Smarty Pants? maybe - but hey...Phase One is the number one HOT AIR balloon in the market. Get over it guys...there are real camera companies and there are ..umm 'marketing and sales' noise makers. Enjoy the extra megapixels ....like they make one IOTA of difference ..

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    Subscriber gogopix's Avatar
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    Re: Blimey, new 'Phase look-alikes' with LIVE PREVIEW!

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post


    if Phase One could ever 'make' anything like this ( instead of just piggybacking other people's work) - I might take thier stuff a tad more seriously.

    In the meantime I am too busy making shots and printing them with the stuff that works for me - to bother too much with the fan boy stuff.

    Cruel? Smarty Pants? maybe - but hey...Phase One is the number one HOT AIR balloon in the market. Get over it guys...there are real camera companies and there are ..umm 'marketing and sales' noise makers. Enjoy the extra megapixels ....like they make one IOTA of difference ..
    For a small company with a hand made product, they may be smart to leave the machine shop action to the experts-alpa, kapture group etc. There is every bit a precision, maybe more and getting the focus correct is not trivial. Phase I don't think has the experience.
    But what they have a good understanding of is sensors and SW. I believe early Leica SW (DMR? M?) was built by Phase. C1 is a very sophisticated product and others took quite a while to catch up. They buy the sensors; seems their core competence is FW and SW.

    The Phamyia, Mamase re-badging (both ways!) may just help each. The better they do, the more profit, the better product. For once I guess we would like to see a growth, not a death spiral in this business.

    Now, about that S2....

    regards
    Victor

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    Re: Blimey, new 'Phase look-alikes' with LIVE PREVIEW!

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    yes, of course. But you comment even if none asks...
    I have to agree with Graham here, we hear on this forum all day and all night about Phase One backs and how great they are, and about Mamiya/Phase One cameras, and how sharp the D lenses are, but for some reason, Hasselblad proponents are defensive, Leaf comments are more or less ignored, but often when someone mentions Sinar backs, there are snide remarks about playing dealer, and so on.

    IMO, all comments about all backs and cameras are welcome. Each of us is perfectly capable of filtering the stuff which doesn't interest us.

    But tell me about these "adapter options" for the eM54LV (that count with additional ~ €1K officially). Is the adapter for, say, Mamiya or Contax included in the nearly "half of the price" of the M22? (I really don't know.)
    Most are around €1000 (compared to €3000 for a mount-swap for a Phase One out of warranty), but the neat thing is that they can be user-swapped in a few minutes, so you could have one back for Hasselblad V and Contax 645, for example. The adapter is not included normally, but the e75LV deal does include one, i.e. back and adapter for €7500, plus VAT, in case you pay that.
    Last edited by carstenw; 16th June 2009 at 07:56.
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    Re: Blimey, new 'Phase look-alikes' with LIVE PREVIEW!

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    For a small company with a hand made product, they may be smart to leave the machine shop action to the experts-alpa, kapture group etc. There is every bit a precision, maybe more and getting the focus correct is not trivial. Phase I don't think has the experience.
    But what they have a good understanding of is sensors and SW. I believe early Leica SW (DMR? M?) was built by Phase. C1 is a very sophisticated product and others took quite a while to catch up. They buy the sensors; seems their core competence is FW and SW.

    The Phamyia, Mamase re-badging (both ways!) may just help each. The better they do, the more profit, the better product. For once I guess we would like to see a growth, not a death spiral in this business.

    Now, about that S2....

    regards
    Victor
    FYI, the DMR was a joint venture/supplier relationship with Imacon (i.e., now Hasselblad) ... and when Hasselblad and Imacon became one, the relationship ended leaving Leica and it's owners high and dry. Probably one reason why Leica took everything they could in house on the S2.

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    Re: Blimey, new 'Phase look-alikes' with LIVE PREVIEW!

    Re the brand war debate, I see both sides.

    In threads discussing the particulars of one brand it can be irritating when someone pops in with "don't forget about brand X because it does A, B, and C better!" it can sound like a sales pitch. OTOH, in most of the threads it's appropriate to discuss any brand, and adding a similar comment is clearly helpful, though it's usually worded more like, "I chose brand X because it does A, B and C better and those are important benefits to me." And IMO the difference in how one words a response is not trivial to setting the tone of the post...

    The other aspect is number of users of a particular brand... In our case, about the only regularly vocal Sinar user is Graham, so he unfairly becomes labeled the poster boy for them. By contrast, we have maybe a dozen regular vocal Phase users, so when they speak it (again unfairly) usually starts to sound like a fan club. But the reality in both cases is these folks are just trying to share their opinions toward the goal of helping others, AND THAT'S WHAT WE'RE ALL ABOUT here at GetDPI!

    I think every regular poster here behaves very well, especially when compared to other forums, and personally I do not want to see that change --- EVERYBODY is entitled to share their opinion and be treated respectfully even when there is disagreement. In the end, I think we'd all agree on the same goal: it is the image that counts and how you get there is less important than what you got. But to get there, we all want to choose gear that allows us to get there as efficiently AND as enjoyably as possible. So to use a weak analogy, just like when getting to point B in our cars, some of us want to slide through the turns in the latest sports car while others want to cruise casually in a discontinued classic with the top down while still others want to take the boulder-strewn dirt bypass in an SUV...

    And from my point of view, it's all good
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    Re: Blimey, new 'Phase look-alikes' with LIVE PREVIEW!

    Carsten - in the US the Sinar backs are quite expensive. That 6k Euro price sounds sexy on the forums, but once it gets to the US soil the prices are quite different. They use a high Euro to USD conversion factor, so that back is more like $8200 (probably higher now than when I checked last fall/winter). Next, SinarBron adds ~25% for distribution, so now $10k. And the adapter plates are $1500-$2500. "My" price was going to be ~$11,800 for a Contax AF mount - and that's for an old product with a very outdated LCD screen.

    Meanwhile a new Hasselblad H3DII-31 set-up without the 80mm lens is $12,995. It's a bit apples & oranges due to crop factor, but in effect you're getting the H3DII-31 body for $1k. And now there a Mamiya DL28 bundles for $9990. In comparison the Sinar price / benefit / value offer is out of balance. A 6000 number sounds intriguing, but with a couple phone calls, one quickly realizes that's not how it plays out in this market. Add on top of that the uncertainty regarding surrounding F&H, Leaf and the HY6, spending $11-12k on a 54LV back is an unsettling feeling (IMO).

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    Re: Blimey, new 'Phase look-alikes' with LIVE PREVIEW!

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    I have to agree with Graham here, we hear on this forum all day and all night about Phase One backs and how great they are
    it belongs to you to see it that way and that's okay (really okay!). And with regard to this particular forum you might be right. I mixed my perception with contributions on LuLa... so my fault.
    As to how great Phase products are on my part you'll never hear (read) something like that. I like my Phase backs and C1 but my list of flaws goes from Munich to Hamburg and if asked I'll report about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    the neat thing is that they can be user-swapped in a few minutes, so you could have one back for Hasselblad V and Contax 645, for example.
    am I right to assume that in this case there is no communication from camera to back through the camera contacts but through an additional cable? Which EXIF data the RAW files contain then? ISO and exposure or just ISO?

  35. #35
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Blimey, new 'Phase look-alikes' with LIVE PREVIEW!

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    am I right to assume that in this case there is no communication from camera to back through the camera contacts but through an additional cable? Which EXIF data the RAW files contain then? ISO and exposure or just ISO?
    Some adapters support communication with the camera, but others do not (in cases where the camera itself does not support this, such as the Hasselblad V or Rollei 6008). I only have ISO recorded in my EXIF - that would be one of the improvements I could look forward to if I upgrade to the Hy6.

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    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Blimey, new 'Phase look-alikes' with LIVE PREVIEW!

    Quote Originally Posted by John Black View Post
    Carsten - in the US the Sinar backs are quite expensive. That 6k Euro price sounds sexy on the forums, but once it gets to the US soil the prices are quite different. They use a high Euro to USD conversion factor, so that back is more like $8200
    Of course there's nothing (afaik) to stop you picking up an e75LV + adapter in Europe for $10,400 (i just checked today's exchange rate). Everyone is free to decide their own priorities in terms of price v. convenience.

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    Re: Blimey, new 'Phase look-alikes' with LIVE PREVIEW!

    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    Some adapters support communication with the camera, but others do not (in cases where the camera itself does not support this, such as the Hasselblad V or Rollei 6008).
    Do you happen to know if on Contax the aperture is in the EXIF as well?

    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    I only have ISO recorded in my EXIF - that would be one of the improvements I could look forward to if I upgrade to the Hy6.
    I honestly keep my fingers crossed for you. Would be a real pity if a great brand like Rollei would disappear.
    Well... somewhere an old B35 lies around here

  38. #38
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Blimey, new 'Phase look-alikes' with LIVE PREVIEW!

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    Do you happen to know if on Contax the aperture is in the EXIF as well?
    Sorry I don't know. I hope someone else can answer this.

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    Re: Blimey, new 'Phase look-alikes' with LIVE PREVIEW!

    John, I know the situation isn't the same in the states. Often it is the other way around, so I guess we all have to filter what makes no sense, and PeterA has to filter everything, being in Australia But specifically, I was addressing "thomas" (thomas, bist du tho_mas auf LL?), and he is in Germany, where the current deal is.

    I don't yet know if the Contax stores more than EXIF in the Sinar back's files' EXIF, but I presume it stores shutter speed, aperture, ISO, and various strings, since it is able to write these values to a film (!), and has a full data connection to the back. It should be verified though.
    Carsten - Website

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Blimey, new 'Phase look-alikes' with LIVE PREVIEW!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Re the brand war debate, I see both sides.

    In threads discussing the particulars of one brand it can be irritating when someone pops in with "don't forget about brand X because it does A, B, and C better!" it can sound like a sales pitch. OTOH, in most of the threads it's appropriate to discuss any brand, and adding a similar comment is clearly helpful, though it's usually worded more like, "I chose brand X because it does A, B and C better and those are important benefits to me." And IMO the difference in how one words a response is not trivial to setting the tone of the post...

    The other aspect is number of users of a particular brand... In our case, about the only regularly vocal Sinar user is Graham, so he unfairly becomes labeled the poster boy for them. By contrast, we have maybe a dozen regular vocal Phase users, so when they speak it (again unfairly) usually starts to sound like a fan club. But the reality in both cases is these folks are just trying to share their opinions toward the goal of helping others, AND THAT'S WHAT WE'RE ALL ABOUT here at GetDPI!

    I think every regular poster here behaves very well, especially when compared to other forums, and personally I do not want to see that change --- EVERYBODY is entitled to share their opinion and be treated respectfully even when there is disagreement. In the end, I think we'd all agree on the same goal: it is the image that counts and how you get there is less important than what you got. But to get there, we all want to choose gear that allows us to get there as efficiently AND as enjoyably as possible. So to use a weak analogy, just like when getting to point B in our cars, some of us want to slide through the turns in the latest sports car while others want to cruise casually in a discontinued classic with the top down while still others want to take the boulder-strewn dirt bypass in an SUV...

    And from my point of view, it's all good
    I'm running out the door but had to reply here. I agree about 150 percent here if that is possible. ALL MF shooters are welcome and ALL are entitled to share there opinion. Some are just more vocal than others and it may seem the balance is one way or the other. Me i shoot what works for me period and if i need to switch systems I will on a dime but I like to stay involved in all systems , others do not and that is perfectly fine.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Blimey, new 'Phase look-alikes' with LIVE PREVIEW!

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    (thomas, bist du tho_mas auf LL?)
    ja, genau
    I don't yet know if the Contax stores more than EXIF in the Sinar back's files' EXIF, but I presume it stores shutter speed, aperture, ISO, and various strings, since it is able to write these values to a film (!), and has a full data connection to the back. It should be verified though.
    that the Contax can write it to the film has nothing to say here as the film back has the 9 contacts the camera has. The Phase backs with Contax mount have these 9 contacts as well so the aperture (shutter speed and ISO, too, of course) is stored in the EXIF.
    Somewhere I read (or heard?) that there was knowlegde exchange between Phase and Contax in the construction phase of the Contax. Don't know if anything of this is true... anyway the Contax with a Phase back is a unity, it works with a digiback more or less like with a filmback (just slower... depending on the back); e.g. you set ISO at the back and the Contax metering considers the ISO (which is trivial but obviously not possible with all cameras). And no cable needed of course.

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    Re: Blimey, new 'Phase look-alikes' with LIVE PREVIEW!

    I meant only that the camera is clearly in possession of all of this information. I didn't know that the Contax worked so well with Phase backs, but it doesn't surprise me. I am 99% sure that the Contax adapter for the Sinar back has electronics in it, so I presume that the communication is full. Anyway, verification is of course still necessary.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Blimey, new 'Phase look-alikes' with LIVE PREVIEW!

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    I am 99% sure that the Contax adapter for the Sinar back has electronics in it, so I presume that the communication is full.
    if so it is probably the same as with the Phase backs.
    Aperture in the EXIFs is great to use presets for lens corrections in the RAW software. I stored colour cast-, CA- and vignetting-corrections together as presets for all my Contax lenses at all apertures... it's comfortable working.

  44. #44
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    Re: Blimey, new 'Phase look-alikes' with LIVE PREVIEW!

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    FYI, the DMR was a joint venture/supplier relationship with Imacon (i.e., now Hasselblad) ... and when Hasselblad and Imacon became one, the relationship ended leaving Leica and it's owners high and dry. Probably one reason why Leica took everything they could in house on the S2.
    Yes, you are right. The Leica phase relationship is newer.


    Leica Camera and Phase One Form Strategic Alliance





    Solms/Copenhagen/Cologne, September 22, 2008 (PHOTOKINA) - Leica Camera AG and Phase One A/S have agreed to enter into a long-term strategic alliance.

    Both companies have agreed to enter into a long-term strategic alliance and are in mutual agreement on the terms of close future cooperation in the technical development and marketing of premium products for the professional photography segment. The objective is to offer photographers innovative high-end solutions that guarantee the greatest possible creative freedom and set standards in terms of performance, quality and technological maturity. Close cooperation has also been decided upon for the expansion of effective service and marketing structures......


    Victor

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    Re: Blimey, new 'Phase look-alikes' with LIVE PREVIEW!

    I don't care if Graham's views are biased or not. I appreciate that he has a lot of experience with some of the Sinar products, adapters, etc. and is willing to share it. Without him doing so I would know even less about the Sinar product line.

    Most of us tend to have biases – some logical for our uses, and some emotional. I think it's best to take all of the posted info as simply an expression of someone's own biases and experiences as they use certain products in their world of photography.

    Plenty of salt to go around for all.

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    Re: Blimey, new 'Phase look-alikes' with LIVE PREVIEW!

    Even though its nice to have fstop and exposure in the EXIF I have to say its mostly informative. I dont think exposure does any corrections based on those infos and frankly I have never felt the need for any corrections so far.

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    Re: Blimey, new 'Phase look-alikes' with LIVE PREVIEW!

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    Even though its nice to have fstop and exposure in the EXIF I have to say its mostly informative. I dont think exposure does any corrections based on those infos and frankly I have never felt the need for any corrections so far.
    if you don't apply any corrections you don't need the EXIFs.
    Sometimes I don't apply corrections but often it's great to have them stored (instead of recreating again and again)... and then it's essential to know the aperture.
    attachment 1: before/after
    attachment 2: my lens settings
    Last edited by thomas; 15th January 2011 at 08:38.

  48. #48
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    Re: Blimey, new 'Phase look-alikes' with LIVE PREVIEW!

    why is it so hard to couple hy6 and phase one?

    it would be very logical of phaseone to make an offer (solution) to F&H about hy6 and
    extremely ignorant of F&H not to except it or consider it.

    benefit is obvious.

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    Re: Blimey, new 'Phase look-alikes' with LIVE PREVIEW!

    Quote Originally Posted by Alexander Bauer View Post
    why is it so hard to couple hy6 and phase one?

    it would be very logical of phaseone to make an offer (solution) to F&H about hy6 and
    extremely ignorant of F&H not to except it or consider it.

    benefit is obvious.

    Alexander - F&H are merely licensed manufacturers of the Hy6/Afi - the ownership of the camera platform rests with Jenoptic which owns Sinar. The current problems at F&H are a negative to Sinar and Leaf - because that is the in house camera platform which these backs attach to. Of course a Sinar back can attach itslef to any camera platform via adaptor system and Leaf can attach itself via change in adaptor plates..

    It must be galling to sinar and leqaf to have seen their brand new and lovely MF camera and Rollie lens production lines - fail because of issues particular to F&H. This is costing market share and credibility. For Leaf it may have cost even more..we dont know (yet)

    All I can say is that it woudl be a shame to lose the Hy6 platform because even though a lot of stuff doesnt exist ( yet) a lot of stuff does exist and works beautifully. In particular the Rollie mount lenses from Scheider and Zeiss.

    The F&H situation may imporove and then F&H can get back to making teh Hy6 and Rollie lenses and accessories. OR F&H may be a basket case - we dont know.

    However - we do know that IF jenoptic wishes to continue investing in MFD camera system - they coudl always find another manufacturer if B&H was not viable.

    Finding another manufacturer is easier said than donre though. It will all take a long time to sort out if Jenoptic was forced to find an alternative manufacturer. Maybe too much time..no one knows and teh current economic envirionment isnt helping.

  50. #50
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Blimey, new 'Phase look-alikes' with LIVE PREVIEW!

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Finding another manufacturer is easier said than donre though. It will all take a long time to sort out if Jenoptic was forced to find an alternative manufacturer. Maybe too much time..no one knows and teh current economic envirionment isnt helping.
    One option might be for someone to buy the workshop, machinery, staff from F&H and continue production with minimum disruption (assuming F&H is free to do so under German insolvency law).

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