I'm going MFB with a Tech View for Landscape

[thomas]

I'd take the 35XL or the 47XL. The 28 is too special. In addition if you think about stitching the 47XL with its huge image circle covers them all together.
The 47 equals roughly a 28mm for a 35 SLR. With full shift on the WRS the 47XL equals something like a 27mm on the P25 chip format which is super wide.
I'd save one lens and go for the better body with more options. The WRS or the WDS...
As to the DB they are all very simliar (Phase, Leaf, Sinar). Look at the specs and at the software and go for the best deal. If you tend to Phase look for a P25 non plus. At base ISO it's the same as the Plus series beside the LCD (which is a bit better on the Plus but still not good) and the longer exposure of the Plus. And the Plus has "Live Preview" when tethered ... what you probably would never need...

 

[PeterA]

If you look at the current special offers from Sinar (example set Artec+lens+75LV-back ) and if you think that you get a sliding back, tilt mechanism, groundglass and loupe included I dont find the price/value higher than that from other tech-cameras.

I agree - but discusions about price and value are very specific to the person. It takes years to figure out what you need and what makes you happy and what that is worth to you and what that means regarding price. this si all discretionary expenditure.

 

[tashley]

I am very happy with the WRS-1000 and 35mm Digitar XL in conjunction with a P45+.
-bob

Me too. It is, as we rude English like to say, the dog's b*****ks!

 

[Don Libby]

Me too. It is, as we rude English like to say, the dog's b*****ks!

Me 3.5 (the extre .5 is due to added height)

Don

 

[archivue]

The New Arca M line Two is a good alternative... and lenses cost less... just a copal and a lensboard !

Otherwise the Arca RM3D is nice... but pricey !

 

[jdbfreeheel]

After trying both the Horseman and the Cambos, I ultimately went with the Horseman set up, mostly because it provided what I wanted in a decent package. The Cambos certainly have more fun bits to add and certainly have, probably, a longer product life (and future), but the Horseman does quite well. I use it with my Aptus II 6 (28mp) back and really enjoy it with the 35mm lens.

The movements on the Horseman are not as clean as the Cambo, but I appreciate the movement at least being both on the back and not up front on the lens. I'd give it a B versus an A for the Cambo set up. Ultimately, I'd suggest trying both and decided based on that experience, combined with your overall costs.

I got a great deal from Bob here on the forums and am a happy camper.

-Josh

 

[Don Libby]

It's been my experience the 35mm is a very sweet lens for the WDS and WRS and should be considered as part of any package whether it be a Cambo or Horseman.

 

[thomas]

The movements on the Horseman are not as clean as the Cambo, but I appreciate the movement at least being both on the back and not up front on the lens.

You are refering to the WDS. The WRS has all movements on the back and the lens is fixed.

 

[jlm]

here is a quick 3 x 3 stitch taken yesterday with the horseman and 35mm /CFV, 5mm shifts
and the second is 3 x 3 with 10mm shifts, taken a year ago, same rig

 

[thomas]

here is a quick 3 x 3 stitch taken yesterday with the horseman and 35mm /CFV, 5mm shifts
and the second is 3 x 3 with 10mm shifts, taken a year ago, same rig

as far as I can tell from the small JPGs corner sharpness is poor with the Apo Sironar Digital 35mm. Back in the days I tried the Horseman/35 Apo Sironar with my P45 and the lens was good in the center but poor at the edges with shift.
According to Rodenstock the Apo Sironar Digital lenses are designed for 9microns chips. The Rodenstock HR series is designed for 5microns chips (basically with smaller image circles) and the Schneider Digitars for 6microns chips (some with very wide image circles).
This is why I went Schneider Digitar for my P45.

(very nice image though - like your compositions with powerfull colours)

 

[fotografz]

as far as I can tell from the small JPGs corner sharpness is poor with the Apo Sironar Digital 35mm. Back in the days I tried the Horseman/35 Apo Sironar with my P45 and the lens was good in the center but poor at the edges with shift.
According to Rodenstock the Apo Sironar Digital lenses are designed for 9microns chips. The Rodenstock HR series is designed for 5microns chips (basically with smaller image circles) and the Schneider Digitars for 6microns chips (some with very wide image circles).
This is why I went Schneider Digitar for my P45.

(very nice image though - like your compositions with powerfull colours)

I thought the Schneider Digitar wide angles from 35mm down had smaller image circles? I have to look that up because I'm using a Rodenstock 28/2.8 which has large image circle and is sharp as hell stopped down on a H3D-II/39 back. The Rodentock 90 is killer sharp, but after trying 2 different lenses I have found the 120 macro wanting and need to find an answer for that focal length on my commercial view system. The 6 micron info you just provided may be why.

 

[thomas]

I thought the Schneider Digitar wide angles from 35mm down had smaller image circles? I have to look that up because I'm using a Rodenstock 28/2.8 which has large image circle and is sharp as hell stopped down on a H3D-II/39 back. The Rodentock 90 is killer sharp, but after trying 2 different lenses I have found the 120 macro wanting and need to find an answer for that focal length on my commercial view system. The 6 micron info you just provided may be why.

You are refering to the Apo Sironar Digital 2.8/28? This is the non HR version. And these lenses have much bigger image circles. The HR lenses have smaller image circles (though more as stated in the specs).
AFAIK it depends on the distinct lens - there are certainly Non-HR Rodenstock that perform very, very well even with the 6.8micron chip, especially longer lenses. The 35mm (non HR) I tested was very good at the center and actually for almost the entire image format of the P45. But with a few mm shift it was getting poor at the edges (very poor). Maybe it was a bad copy, too (but actually I don't think so as center was good).
Beside the fact that one or another non HR lens might be very well for your 39MP back from the specs there are the Digitars and the HRs for these highres chips. And the Digitars have bigger image circles as the HRs.
(The HRs were formerly named "Apo Sironar Digital HR" and now are named "HR Digaron-S" and "HR Digaron-W" - see: http://www.linos.com/pages/index.php?id=1933#c11391 ).

edit: found the specs of the non-HR and HR - unfortunately in German:

■ Die Objektivserie HR Digaron-S mit extrem hoher Auflösung
schon bei offener Blende (Optimum bei Blende 4 bis 5,6),
perfekter Bildfeldebnung und Sensorglasdicken-Korrektion
ist das Nonplusultra für kleinere Sensoren bis 33x44 mm
(wenn geringere Verstellwege reichen, sogar bis 37x49 mm)
mit Pixelrasterweiten unter 12 μm bis ca. 5 μm.

■ Die Objektivserie Apo-Sironar digital und das für große Abbildungsmaßstäbe
optimierte Apo-Macro-Sironar digital bieten
noch größere Bildkreise für Scan-Rückteile sowie für aus
mehreren „Kacheln” (Einzelaufnahmen mit versetzten Ausschnitten)
zusammengesetzte Aufnahmen. Die Reserven für
Kameraverstellungen sind beträchtlich. Das Auflösungsvermögen
ist für Pixelrasterweiten bis etwa 9 μm konzipiert.

source: http://www.linos.com/pages/mediabase/original/d_Rodenstock_Digitalobj__3-26__8222.pdf

 

[thomas]

and I think it was this article providing the info that Digtars are designed for chips up to 6microns:
http://schneider-kreuznach.com/knowhow/digfoto_e.htm

 

[PeterA]

thomas you have provided solid info..

Just for fun - do the arithmetic on line pair limits @ 6 microns. Most manufacturers quote @ centre line pair resolutions...

You need about 83.3 LP to get full use out of the resolution @ 6 microns....

 

[thomas]

Just for fun - do the arithmetic on line pair limits @ 6 microns. Most manufacturers quote @ centre line pair resolutions...

Are you sure that is FUN?
I don't shoot line pairs but with the Digitar 47XL shiftet to 20mm lateral in landscape mode you see quite well how the resolution gets less and less. I'd say in reality with the 6.8microns P45 you can use the 47XL stopped down to f11 excellent up to 12mm, still quite well up to 17mm and even 20mm is usable for certain purposes - but I'd guess at 20mm it's already half the resolution or so.

 

[PeterA]

What are you telling me? Nyquist isn't he everyone's compulsory bed side reading? :ROTFL::ROTFL:

I thought I had my problems solved with Sinar and a bunch of adapters..to use with any camera system I wanted..

The H system kills any other body lens combo..and I already owned that!! (DOH)

Then I thought after much much research - yay! the artec has arrived g'bye Alpa/ Hasselblad/mamiya/Contax/Nikon - I can get rid of a truck load of stuff...

bada bing bada boom bada bing - Sinar/Jenoptic aren't telling us that they will even be around ...so ...STOP ORDER - till you guys actually promise you arent going to go way..

- back to the drawing board - maybe Alpa can knock-off an arTec except eliminate the dicky and useless pan head and organsie a nodal point sliding system as part of the kit??

it WAS suppossed to be an architectural/landscape 'solution'..!!! wot no one does nodal point stitiching? -

The irony is that - from a view camera point of view - we still arent where LF shooters were 50 years ago...

 

[thomas]

Sinar/Jenoptic aren't telling us that they will even be around ...so ...STOP ORDER - till you guys actually promise you arent going to go way

hmh... I think an arTec is a rock and will be a lifetime-investment... as long as there is something to attach to it to record images...
But the camera itself is solid and so the lenses are. So if they go away the arTec will keep working for you.

it WAS suppossed to be an architectural/landscape 'solution'..!!! wot no one does nodal point stitiching?

more an architectural than a landscape solution. I think it's focussed on classical single shots with shift for perspective corrections and tilt rather than nodal point stitching or flat stitching other than a 2 shot stitch with the back vertical mounted and stitched to landscape mode (and to be honest - this is loads of resolution and it is already at the limit of the lenses). The integrated sliding back is unique and offers a certain usability other solutions don't offer. Makes sense to me. But the "price" to pay is certainly that nodal point stitching is more complicated (though not impossible as you can use an adpter plate or something...).
What I don't like about the off-center tripod mount is that I "compse" without camera. I take my hands or the camera interface or the finder of the WRS... then I set up the tripod and the camera. The offset is confusing here though I think I would get used to it after some time...

 

[PeterA]

yes it is way cool - I shot with it for a day the other week. It is brilliant...and also extremely sexy ..the offset centre actually doesnt bother at all - the pan head at bottom is silly - better off using the Cube or even teh click stop device from off the manfrotto Panorama kit..

but - come on...Would you really fork out the cash for a body and 3 lens kit - even if you know chances are that no one will be there to fix anything in a few months? I ahev already been Hy6'd...do I need another ?

hahahha - why not! -

re framing - I am thinking of getting myself one of those Directors Scopes..

btw - down here in OZ ..everything is imported and there are no dealers you want to do business with except maybe Hasselblad and the David - Sinar guy in Sydney..

People in the US have it so good regarding service and choice...there is no equivalent to Capture Intergration or DavidF on Leica in OZ....

 

[thomas]

but - come on...Would you really fork out the cash for a body and 3 lens kit - even if you know chances are that no one will be there to fix anything in a few months?

well, we are talking about the camera, not the digital back. I think Sinar will continue to construct and sell cameras. And if not... there will be a certain time span of service as it is always the case when companies fade away. Too, I live in Germany and I think it would be always possible to find someone to fix certain things (a former employee of Sinar, or W. Gottschalt, or Marek Wiese or someone at Linhof, Arca... I don't know. At least there are some guys around - yet. Sure you would have to find them and would have to pay more... but at least there would be any possibility... I think).
Or maybe you buy 2 arTecs and 6 lenses so you have a back up

 

[Don Libby]

All my lenses are Schneider digitar's and perform very well. The 24mm has no movements. The 35 and 72mm both have great movements as does the 120. I can expect 10mm 15mm movements with the 3 lenses and maybe more although I haven't yet documented it yet.