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Thread: I'm going MFB with a Tech View for Landscape

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    Workshop Member kuau's Avatar
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    I'm going MFB with a Tech View for Landscape

    I just got back from Guy's wonderful workshop in Northern AZ and have decided to take the plunge and dump my FF 35mm A900 setup in favor of a tech view camera for attempting to master landscape work. I live in Flagstaff AZ so I am so close to so many great spots I figured if I am going to shoot I might as well do it the "right" way and go MF. I do my own printing on my HP Z3200 PS 24 inch printer so my largest prints will be up to 20x30.
    Of course I don't have a "ton" of money to spend so after talking with Doug from Capture Integration who was a huge help on the workshop we determined that all i need is a used/refurb P25 back. So that part I feel comfortable with what I am trying to figure out is what body to get. Right now I am either thinking of going Cambo Compact with a 24mm and 35mm lens or go for the horseman with a 35mm lens and shift the back to give me close to a 24 mm coverage I think. The Cambo RS is wonderful but out of my price range. So I can't decide which way to go, 1 lens with a system that has a moving back or go compact with 2 lenses. What I like about the Cambo is it sounds like when they release the tilt for the front it will work with the compact also. That is really nice feature to be able to get.
    Any thoughts???

    Thanks
    Steven
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    Re: I'm going MFB with a Tech View for Landscape

    Is the WDS also out of your price range? Which Horseman are you considering?
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: I'm going MFB with a Tech View for Landscape

    I guess it's this Horseman? http://www.komamura.co.jp/e/digital/SWD2pro.html

    Sounds like you want to use movements primarly to expand the image circle to get wider field of view... That is one of the options tech cameras offer but you can't (and won't) do it all the time. The main purpose is shift to compensate the perspective and/or tilt/swing.
    The compacts (Cambo Compact, Alpa TC) are nice tools but you can't compare them to a camera with movements.
    If you don't want to use movements for other purposes than a wider field of view I'd say take a Compact with a wider lens. Period.

    I didn't like the SW-D II Pro very much. The shift is not geared and when you unlock the back to shift it it's loose and may slip down easily. You definitely need both your hands to shift the back (hold the back with one hand, unlock the holders, shift the back, lock the holders).
    As to the Phase deal with the SW-D II Pro be aware that it comes with a Rodenstock Apo Sironar Digital 35... and thus not the HR version. The lens performs quite good with the P25 you are thinking about. On the P45 with its smaller pixel pitch it's somewhat lost (my Contax 35mm is significantly sharper). So if you think about a future upgrade DB-wise you should take a HR copy or a Digitar 35XL.
    The Cambo WDS Carsten mentioned is probably the best choice currently regarding price and options.

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    Administrator Bob's Avatar
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    Re: I'm going MFB with a Tech View for Landscape

    I am very happy with the WRS-1000 and 35mm Digitar XL in conjunction with a P45+.
    -bob

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    Re: I'm going MFB with a Tech View for Landscape

    I think that I woud like to have shift capabilities in a techn. camera.
    If you consider the price for the P25 and the lenses the additional money for a WRS1000 should be that much more money (difference maybe 1000$??) compared to the whole investment.
    I would therefore get the right body in the first step with only one lens and add the second lens later if the budget is tight.
    Personally I am planning more into the Artec direction, since I believe the sliding adapter with ground glass plus shift capabilities are nice things to have.
    My second choice would be probably the WRS1000 (however the ALpa SWA looks also very nice).

    Isnt a second lens more expensive than the difference in price between the WRS1000 and the Compact?

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    Re: I'm going MFB with a Tech View for Landscape

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    Personally I am planning more into the Artec direction, since I believe the sliding adapter with ground glass plus shift capabilities are nice things to have.
    I'd probably go for the ArTec as well if I would buy a camera now. Took the WRS last year; when I was in the market Sinar didn't offer Contax mount and didn't plan to do so (meanwhile it's there... damn). Beside the nicely designed sliding back and the excellent built quality it's all the small details as well that make the difference. The groundglass is really bright, the loupe is really usable, there are magnetic masks to fit on the groundglass... you just can work with it! The groundglass of the WRS is dark, the flexible focussing hood is flimsy, the loupe is crap... all that stuff works in a way but it's a challenge of its own.
    Upside of the WRS is the light weight and the small size ... really very strong benefits for me personally. Too, the four directions shift on the back are easier to handle and more accurate if you do a lot of stitching (I do).

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    Re: I'm going MFB with a Tech View for Landscape

    For flat wide angle shots I would recommend an Alpa 12 with shift capability - the arTec's ground glass darkens up when using combination shift and tilt with wide angle lenses ( image circle size matters here)

    No wide angle gives you decent tilt capability anyway as image circles are too small. For anything longer than 35 focal length - the arTec is a pleasure to use. I am ordering an artec with a 90mm to start and then waiting for the new 40mmVHR lens to become available - same image circle as 90 and large enough to need no more.

    the arca Swiss R3D is vapourware and certainly no artec in terms of use-ability. Once you have used the ground glass with inbuilt hood and magnifier and the built in sliding back..other solutions are clumsy at best and precarious at worst.

    of course it ll comes at a price and unfortunately (currently) is limited to Sinar/Leaf hy6/Afi mounts and V mount backs.

    I am waiting for someone to tell me how current lens technology - is capable of resolving P65+ resolution ...not in the center of the lens btw on the edges . I think we are approaching the limits of lens technology now and in some ways lower resolution backs may give better technical camera results - this is talking the best of the Rodenstock / Schneider glass currently available....

    I would be interested to hear Doug's thoughts on this conundrum.

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    Re: I'm going MFB with a Tech View for Landscape

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    ..... I am ordering an artec with a 90mm to start and then waiting for the new 40mmVHR lens to become available - same image circle as 90 and large enough to need no more.

    the arca Swiss R3D is vapourware and certainly no artec in terms of use-ability. Once you have used the ground glass with inbuilt hood and magnifier and the built in sliding back..other solutions are clumsy at best and precarious at worst.

    of course it ll comes at a price and unfortunately (currently) is limited to Sinar/Leaf hy6/Afi mounts and V mount backs....
    If you look at the current special offers from Sinar (example set Artec+lens+75LV-back ) and if you think that you get a sliding back, tilt mechanism, groundglass and loupe included I dont find the price/value higher than that from other tech-cameras.
    Last edited by Paratom; 22nd June 2009 at 06:31.

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    Re: I'm going MFB with a Tech View for Landscape

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    I guess it's this Horseman? http://www.komamura.co.jp/e/digital/SWD2pro.html

    Sounds like you want to use movements primarly to expand the image circle to get wider field of view... That is one of the options tech cameras offer but you can't (and won't) do it all the time. The main purpose is shift to compensate the perspective and/or tilt/swing.
    The compacts (Cambo Compact, Alpa TC) are nice tools but you can't compare them to a camera with movements.
    If you don't want to use movements for other purposes than a wider field of view I'd say take a Compact with a wider lens. Period.

    I didn't like the SW-D II Pro very much. The shift is not geared and when you unlock the back to shift it it's loose and may slip down easily. You definitely need both your hands to shift the back (hold the back with one hand, unlock the holders, shift the back, lock the holders).
    As to the Phase deal with the SW-D II Pro be aware that it comes with a Rodenstock Apo Sironar Digital 35... and thus not the HR version. The lens performs quite good with the P25 you are thinking about. On the P45 with its smaller pixel pitch it's somewhat lost (my Contax 35mm is significantly sharper). So if you think about a future upgrade DB-wise you should take a HR copy or a Digitar 35XL.
    The Cambo WDS Carsten mentioned is probably the best choice currently regarding price and options.
    Thanks for the info Thomas.
    Yes you are correct, I would only be using the movement for wider field of view for landscape work. So it looks like my options are Cambo compact with a 24 and 35mm or look at a usead WDS Cambo considering the cost factor

    Steven
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    Re: I'm going MFB with a Tech View for Landscape

    Steve I would maybe start with the Cambo compact than at a later time you still have the cambo mount on the lenses and if you wanted to move up to a shift camera than the RS 1000 would be a easy grade up the scale with your mount plate and your lenses. What you want to do is always think ahead on your next move up and not pin yourself into a corner and have to switch gears in mid stream. Right now i would think a body and two lenses to work with like a 35mm lens and maybe something wider or longer. Remember a 35mm lens on a P25 is like a 26mm I believe FF in 35mm cameras. The WDS is also a cheap option for shifting. I think to get started it maybe a good idea to keep the body cost down and put the money in glass and back.

    I simply would not think Sinar or Arca solutions to start with are good options. There expensive and it limits your purchasing power.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: I'm going MFB with a Tech View for Landscape

    The nice thing about Cambo (and Alpa ) are that they offer a compact body and a Shift body both using the same lenses.
    On the other side the Artec offers additionally tilt + sliding adapter etc.
    So I think one really needs to find out what one needs/wants.

    Probably also a question if you plan to use your back also with a MF-SLR later on and which adapters are available for the back and the tech-camera.

    Whats peoples opinion here for a first lens for a tech camera for landscape stuff? 28mm vs 35mm (on a P25-size sensor)?

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    Re: I'm going MFB with a Tech View for Landscape

    I'm with Tom Streng -- by the time you assemble the compact kit, the WRS body is maybe another $1000 or so tops and seems a no-brainer for the added versatility. My vote is to start with the WRS and the lens of choice -- for me that would be either the 35 or 47 since they offer generous shift circles.

    My .02 only,
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    Re: I'm going MFB with a Tech View for Landscape

    Thanks Guy, Tom and Jack,
    Jack I see your point on the WRS over the compact now I am all confused. Still not sure on what lens to get first. 35mm or 28mm

    Steven
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    Re: I'm going MFB with a Tech View for Landscape

    Hi Steven

    My recommendation is the WRS-1000. Okay got that off my chest.

    Now for the suggestion. Call Capture Integration and see what type of deal they can put together for a used WDS. The WDS is close to being as good as the WRS and will allow you to build off it as all your lens will work on either the Compact, WDS and WRS. I would also recommend not going with the Compact to begin with as it will not allow any movements.

    I'd also recommend one lens to begin with. The 35mm will work very well for you with either the WDS or WRS as you'll be able to go much wider just by using movements. The 35 was my first lens and it has served me well shooting the Grand Canyon and Redwoods.

    Welcome to the wonderful world of technical cameras!

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    Re: I'm going MFB with a Tech View for Landscape

    Opps just saw the price of a 28mm lens 6700.00 yikes.
    Jims horseman for 3800.00 may not be a bad deal for me.
    If I go cambo either the compact or WRS I am looking at over 6500-7500

    Steven
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    Re: I'm going MFB with a Tech View for Landscape

    Easy -- the 28 (or 24 for that matter) has virtually no added IC to do shifts with, while the 35 does. (Note that the 23m mHR does allow for a few mm of shift with full frame backs.)

    From a use standpoint, the Horseman D shift and Cambo WRS are not that different. The Cambo's movements are geared and not lockable with indents every 5mm, while the Horseman's movements are lockable friction with indents at 5 or 10mm increments -- I can't remember exactly.

    Advantage to the Cambo right now is the future option of being able to add the TS adapter. Advantage of the Horseman is the total price including a lens
    Jack
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    Re: I'm going MFB with a Tech View for Landscape

    Steven

    I too had thought about a Horseman when I first started looking however the advantages of the Cambo were just so overwhelming in their favor despite the price difference. The major factor for me was the movements.

    I know it sounds strange but don't think with your wallet for awhile - look at the long term effect of the systems and growth. Then start checking with dealers (calling CI first) and having them put together a proposal for you.

    You also don't want such a wide lens as a 28 if that's the only one you'll have for awhile. Start with a 35 or for that matter a 47 and you'll have the best of both worlds.

    Just my 2¢

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    Re: I'm going MFB with a Tech View for Landscape

    i doubt you will come near the jlm horseman, with 35mm lens, price by a long shot. and it is primo and still for sale
    Last edited by jlm; 22nd June 2009 at 09:56.

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    Re: I'm going MFB with a Tech View for Landscape

    Thanks for your input Don.
    Question what about the leaf aptus 22 compared to the P25 any opinions?

    Steven
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    Re: I'm going MFB with a Tech View for Landscape

    Steven,

    Ditto on Don's comments. I am not familiar enough with the horseman to make a comparison but with an investment like this you definitely want to think long term. Once you start down a path, it is extremely difficult and costly if you make the wrong decision.

    One other point, I find the 35XL is in the sweet spot for landscape work, especially with the cambo's shift capabilities. The wider lens is going to add substantial distortion; while it may be correctable it doesn't stitch as wonderfully as the 35mm. With the 35mm you can stitch frames created with back shift alone which gives incredible quality. The 47 may even be better but I have been happy enough with my 35 that I have the 47mm way down the priority list.

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    Re: I'm going MFB with a Tech View for Landscape

    I'd take the 35XL or the 47XL. The 28 is too special. In addition if you think about stitching the 47XL with its huge image circle covers them all together.
    The 47 equals roughly a 28mm for a 35 SLR. With full shift on the WRS the 47XL equals something like a 27mm on the P25 chip format which is super wide.
    I'd save one lens and go for the better body with more options. The WRS or the WDS...
    As to the DB they are all very simliar (Phase, Leaf, Sinar). Look at the specs and at the software and go for the best deal. If you tend to Phase look for a P25 non plus. At base ISO it's the same as the Plus series beside the LCD (which is a bit better on the Plus but still not good) and the longer exposure of the Plus. And the Plus has "Live Preview" when tethered ... what you probably would never need...

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    Re: I'm going MFB with a Tech View for Landscape

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    If you look at the current special offers from Sinar (example set Artec+lens+75LV-back ) and if you think that you get a sliding back, tilt mechanism, groundglass and loupe included I dont find the price/value higher than that from other tech-cameras.
    I agree - but discusions about price and value are very specific to the person. It takes years to figure out what you need and what makes you happy and what that is worth to you and what that means regarding price. this si all discretionary expenditure.

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    Re: I'm going MFB with a Tech View for Landscape

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    I am very happy with the WRS-1000 and 35mm Digitar XL in conjunction with a P45+.
    -bob
    Me too. It is, as we rude English like to say, the dog's b*****ks!

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    Re: I'm going MFB with a Tech View for Landscape

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Me too. It is, as we rude English like to say, the dog's b*****ks!
    Me 3.5 (the extre .5 is due to added height)

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    Re: I'm going MFB with a Tech View for Landscape

    The New Arca M line Two is a good alternative... and lenses cost less... just a copal and a lensboard !

    Otherwise the Arca RM3D is nice... but pricey !

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    Re: I'm going MFB with a Tech View for Landscape

    After trying both the Horseman and the Cambos, I ultimately went with the Horseman set up, mostly because it provided what I wanted in a decent package. The Cambos certainly have more fun bits to add and certainly have, probably, a longer product life (and future), but the Horseman does quite well. I use it with my Aptus II 6 (28mp) back and really enjoy it with the 35mm lens.

    The movements on the Horseman are not as clean as the Cambo, but I appreciate the movement at least being both on the back and not up front on the lens. I'd give it a B versus an A for the Cambo set up. Ultimately, I'd suggest trying both and decided based on that experience, combined with your overall costs.

    I got a great deal from Bob here on the forums and am a happy camper.

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    Re: I'm going MFB with a Tech View for Landscape

    It's been my experience the 35mm is a very sweet lens for the WDS and WRS and should be considered as part of any package whether it be a Cambo or Horseman.
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    Re: I'm going MFB with a Tech View for Landscape

    Quote Originally Posted by jdbfreeheel View Post
    The movements on the Horseman are not as clean as the Cambo, but I appreciate the movement at least being both on the back and not up front on the lens.
    You are refering to the WDS. The WRS has all movements on the back and the lens is fixed.

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    Re: I'm going MFB with a Tech View for Landscape

    here is a quick 3 x 3 stitch taken yesterday with the horseman and 35mm /CFV, 5mm shifts
    and the second is 3 x 3 with 10mm shifts, taken a year ago, same rig

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    Re: I'm going MFB with a Tech View for Landscape

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    here is a quick 3 x 3 stitch taken yesterday with the horseman and 35mm /CFV, 5mm shifts
    and the second is 3 x 3 with 10mm shifts, taken a year ago, same rig
    as far as I can tell from the small JPGs corner sharpness is poor with the Apo Sironar Digital 35mm. Back in the days I tried the Horseman/35 Apo Sironar with my P45 and the lens was good in the center but poor at the edges with shift.
    According to Rodenstock the Apo Sironar Digital lenses are designed for 9microns chips. The Rodenstock HR series is designed for 5microns chips (basically with smaller image circles) and the Schneider Digitars for 6microns chips (some with very wide image circles).
    This is why I went Schneider Digitar for my P45.

    (very nice image though - like your compositions with powerfull colours)

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    Re: I'm going MFB with a Tech View for Landscape

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    as far as I can tell from the small JPGs corner sharpness is poor with the Apo Sironar Digital 35mm. Back in the days I tried the Horseman/35 Apo Sironar with my P45 and the lens was good in the center but poor at the edges with shift.
    According to Rodenstock the Apo Sironar Digital lenses are designed for 9microns chips. The Rodenstock HR series is designed for 5microns chips (basically with smaller image circles) and the Schneider Digitars for 6microns chips (some with very wide image circles).
    This is why I went Schneider Digitar for my P45.

    (very nice image though - like your compositions with powerfull colours)
    I thought the Schneider Digitar wide angles from 35mm down had smaller image circles? I have to look that up because I'm using a Rodenstock 28/2.8 which has large image circle and is sharp as hell stopped down on a H3D-II/39 back. The Rodentock 90 is killer sharp, but after trying 2 different lenses I have found the 120 macro wanting and need to find an answer for that focal length on my commercial view system. The 6 micron info you just provided may be why.

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    Re: I'm going MFB with a Tech View for Landscape

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I thought the Schneider Digitar wide angles from 35mm down had smaller image circles? I have to look that up because I'm using a Rodenstock 28/2.8 which has large image circle and is sharp as hell stopped down on a H3D-II/39 back. The Rodentock 90 is killer sharp, but after trying 2 different lenses I have found the 120 macro wanting and need to find an answer for that focal length on my commercial view system. The 6 micron info you just provided may be why.
    You are refering to the Apo Sironar Digital 2.8/28? This is the non HR version. And these lenses have much bigger image circles. The HR lenses have smaller image circles (though more as stated in the specs).
    AFAIK it depends on the distinct lens - there are certainly Non-HR Rodenstock that perform very, very well even with the 6.8micron chip, especially longer lenses. The 35mm (non HR) I tested was very good at the center and actually for almost the entire image format of the P45. But with a few mm shift it was getting poor at the edges (very poor). Maybe it was a bad copy, too (but actually I don't think so as center was good).
    Beside the fact that one or another non HR lens might be very well for your 39MP back from the specs there are the Digitars and the HRs for these highres chips. And the Digitars have bigger image circles as the HRs.
    (The HRs were formerly named "Apo Sironar Digital HR" and now are named "HR Digaron-S" and "HR Digaron-W" - see: http://www.linos.com/pages/index.php?id=1933#c11391 ).

    edit: found the specs of the non-HR and HR - unfortunately in German:
    ■ Die Objektivserie HR Digaron-S mit extrem hoher Auflösung
    schon bei offener Blende (Optimum bei Blende 4 bis 5,6),
    perfekter Bildfeldebnung und Sensorglasdicken-Korrektion
    ist das Nonplusultra für kleinere Sensoren bis 33x44 mm
    (wenn geringere Verstellwege reichen, sogar bis 37x49 mm)
    mit Pixelrasterweiten unter 12 μm bis ca. 5 μm.

    ■ Die Objektivserie Apo-Sironar digital und das für große Abbildungsmaßstäbe
    optimierte Apo-Macro-Sironar digital bieten
    noch größere Bildkreise für Scan-Rückteile sowie für aus
    mehreren „Kacheln” (Einzelaufnahmen mit versetzten Ausschnitten)
    zusammengesetzte Aufnahmen. Die Reserven für
    Kameraverstellungen sind beträchtlich. Das Auflösungsvermögen
    ist für Pixelrasterweiten bis etwa 9 μm konzipiert.
    source: http://www.linos.com/pages/mediabase...3-26__8222.pdf
    Last edited by thomas; 28th June 2009 at 05:09.

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    Re: I'm going MFB with a Tech View for Landscape

    and I think it was this article providing the info that Digtars are designed for chips up to 6microns:
    http://schneider-kreuznach.com/knowhow/digfoto_e.htm

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    Re: I'm going MFB with a Tech View for Landscape

    thomas you have provided solid info..

    Just for fun - do the arithmetic on line pair limits @ 6 microns. Most manufacturers quote @ centre line pair resolutions...

    You need about 83.3 LP to get full use out of the resolution @ 6 microns....

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    Re: I'm going MFB with a Tech View for Landscape

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Just for fun - do the arithmetic on line pair limits @ 6 microns. Most manufacturers quote @ centre line pair resolutions...
    Are you sure that is FUN?
    I don't shoot line pairs but with the Digitar 47XL shiftet to 20mm lateral in landscape mode you see quite well how the resolution gets less and less. I'd say in reality with the 6.8microns P45 you can use the 47XL stopped down to f11 excellent up to 12mm, still quite well up to 17mm and even 20mm is usable for certain purposes - but I'd guess at 20mm it's already half the resolution or so.

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    Re: I'm going MFB with a Tech View for Landscape

    What are you telling me? Nyquist isn't he everyone's compulsory bed side reading?

    I thought I had my problems solved with Sinar and a bunch of adapters..to use with any camera system I wanted..

    The H system kills any other body lens combo..and I already owned that!! (DOH)

    Then I thought after much much research - yay! the artec has arrived g'bye Alpa/ Hasselblad/mamiya/Contax/Nikon - I can get rid of a truck load of stuff...

    bada bing bada boom bada bing - Sinar/Jenoptic aren't telling us that they will even be around ...so ...STOP ORDER - till you guys actually promise you arent going to go way..

    - back to the drawing board - maybe Alpa can knock-off an arTec except eliminate the dicky and useless pan head and organsie a nodal point sliding system as part of the kit??

    it WAS suppossed to be an architectural/landscape 'solution'..!!! wot no one does nodal point stitiching? -

    The irony is that - from a view camera point of view - we still arent where LF shooters were 50 years ago...


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    Re: I'm going MFB with a Tech View for Landscape

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Sinar/Jenoptic aren't telling us that they will even be around ...so ...STOP ORDER - till you guys actually promise you arent going to go way
    hmh... I think an arTec is a rock and will be a lifetime-investment... as long as there is something to attach to it to record images... :-)
    But the camera itself is solid and so the lenses are. So if they go away the arTec will keep working for you.

    it WAS suppossed to be an architectural/landscape 'solution'..!!! wot no one does nodal point stitiching?
    more an architectural than a landscape solution. I think it's focussed on classical single shots with shift for perspective corrections and tilt rather than nodal point stitching or flat stitching other than a 2 shot stitch with the back vertical mounted and stitched to landscape mode (and to be honest - this is loads of resolution and it is already at the limit of the lenses). The integrated sliding back is unique and offers a certain usability other solutions don't offer. Makes sense to me. But the "price" to pay is certainly that nodal point stitching is more complicated (though not impossible as you can use an adpter plate or something...).
    What I don't like about the off-center tripod mount is that I "compse" without camera. I take my hands or the camera interface or the finder of the WRS... then I set up the tripod and the camera. The offset is confusing here though I think I would get used to it after some time...

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    Re: I'm going MFB with a Tech View for Landscape

    yes it is way cool - I shot with it for a day the other week. It is brilliant...and also extremely sexy ..the offset centre actually doesnt bother at all - the pan head at bottom is silly - better off using the Cube or even teh click stop device from off the manfrotto Panorama kit..

    but - come on...Would you really fork out the cash for a body and 3 lens kit - even if you know chances are that no one will be there to fix anything in a few months? I ahev already been Hy6'd...do I need another ?

    hahahha - why not! -

    re framing - I am thinking of getting myself one of those Directors Scopes..

    btw - down here in OZ ..everything is imported and there are no dealers you want to do business with except maybe Hasselblad and the David - Sinar guy in Sydney..

    People in the US have it so good regarding service and choice...there is no equivalent to Capture Intergration or DavidF on Leica in OZ....

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    Re: I'm going MFB with a Tech View for Landscape

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    but - come on...Would you really fork out the cash for a body and 3 lens kit - even if you know chances are that no one will be there to fix anything in a few months?
    well, we are talking about the camera, not the digital back. I think Sinar will continue to construct and sell cameras. And if not... there will be a certain time span of service as it is always the case when companies fade away. Too, I live in Germany and I think it would be always possible to find someone to fix certain things (a former employee of Sinar, or W. Gottschalt, or Marek Wiese or someone at Linhof, Arca... I don't know. At least there are some guys around - yet. Sure you would have to find them and would have to pay more... but at least there would be any possibility... I think).
    Or maybe you buy 2 arTecs and 6 lenses so you have a back up

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    Re: I'm going MFB with a Tech View for Landscape

    All my lenses are Schneider digitar's and perform very well. The 24mm has no movements. The 35 and 72mm both have great movements as does the 120. I can expect 10mm 15mm movements with the 3 lenses and maybe more although I haven't yet documented it yet.
    Don Libby
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    Re: I'm going MFB with a Tech View for Landscape

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    You are refering to the Apo Sironar Digital 2.8/28? This is the non HR version. And these lenses have much bigger image circles. The HR lenses have smaller image circles (though more as stated in the specs).
    AFAIK it depends on the distinct lens - there are certainly Non-HR Rodenstock that perform very, very well even with the 6.8micron chip, especially longer lenses. The 35mm (non HR) I tested was very good at the center and actually for almost the entire image format of the P45. But with a few mm shift it was getting poor at the edges (very poor). Maybe it was a bad copy, too (but actually I don't think so as center was good).
    Beside the fact that one or another non HR lens might be very well for your 39MP back from the specs there are the Digitars and the HRs for these highres chips. And the Digitars have bigger image circles as the HRs.
    (The HRs were formerly named "Apo Sironar Digital HR" and now are named "HR Digaron-S" and "HR Digaron-W" - see: http://www.linos.com/pages/index.php?id=1933#c11391 ).

    edit: found the specs of the non-HR and HR - unfortunately in German:

    source: http://www.linos.com/pages/mediabase...3-26__8222.pdf
    Thanks tons for that info. I've been absorbed with 35mm DSLR stuff so much I haven't been tracking developments in view camera lenses. I'm going to look into the 40mm HR Digaron-W. The 28 I have will do for now since I use it wide open with severe tilts for creative effect and only care that the subject center is crisp ... which it seems to do. I don't do much landscape work (if any) ... more environmental portrait stuff with some tilts, and studio product work which is why the 90 and 120 macro are so important.

    Thanks again for taking the time with an update and the links.

    -Marc

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    Re: I'm going MFB with a Tech View for Landscape

    Yea need to get back to your roots Marc. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: I'm going MFB with a Tech View for Landscape

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Yea need to get back to your roots Marc. LOL
    Yeah Guy, truer than you may think. I think it's because commercial studio view camera work dropped off so badly this past 6 -8 months for me. Weddings are the only thing keeping me afloat ... which is more DSLR and M8 territory.

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    Re: I'm going MFB with a Tech View for Landscape

    Yea I know the corporate world is taking no interest in outside vending. Although I am starting to hear from these clients again but it's been 4 or 5 months since they breathed a word on work. Finally there is hole in the tupperware lid. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: I'm going MFB with a Tech View for Landscape

    curious about the relationship of sensor size...my 35 is not the HR and the back has 9 micron sensors

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    Re: I'm going MFB with a Tech View for Landscape

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    curious about the relationship of sensor size...my 35 is not the HR and the back has 9 micron sensors
    so you have exactly the right lens for your back!
    The more you use movements the higher the resolution of the lenses should be. If you use a lot of large movements maybe you should try a Digitar. The 47XL is not so expensive and it is a very beautyful lens (though has to be stopped down to f11 or f16 ... f8 is good without movements).

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    Re: I'm going MFB with a Tech View for Landscape

    " dump my FF 35mm A900 setup in favor of a tech view camera for attempting to master landscape work. "

    Steven,

    It goes without saying that you've received excellent advice from some
    very knowledgeable people here but the quote above from your original post
    struck a chord with me.

    Of course, you don't need to justify squat to anyone but, in light of your quote,
    I'm curious as to how you feel changing formats will better help you in
    your attempt to master landscape photography?

    You have a perfectly capable system that offers significant versatility
    much of which you will lose by going the Tech camera route.

    You trade off a modest amount of sharpness, at the wide end, with a
    35mm system but if you stick with a 22 mp back you don't gain a
    significant amount from an enlargement potential as compared to your
    current camera.

    As someone who is on a learning curve to mastering one aspect of photography (apologies if I am reading between the lines, inaccurately)
    I think you might be doing your learning process a disservice by moving
    to a more restrictive platform.

    Anyway, just an alternate viewpoint on your original post.

    Best,
    Mark

    www.marktomalty.com

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    Re: I'm going MFB with a Tech View for Landscape

    Quote Originally Posted by mtomalty View Post
    You trade off a modest amount of sharpness, at the wide end, with a
    35mm system but if you stick with a 22 mp back you don't gain a
    significant amount from an enlargement potential as compared to your
    current camera.
    I agree; I was stuck for a while deciding between a Sony A900 and a 22MP back. In the end, I found a back, but I would never trade it for the A900, nor the reverse, had I bought the Sony. If you already have the Sony, keep it, make the most of it, and wait for the price of the 39MP backs to come down before buying. At least then you will have much more resolution, instead of slightly less (albeit with better per-pixel sharpness). But keep both; they don't have the same strengths.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: I'm going MFB with a Tech View for Landscape

    Quote Originally Posted by mtomalty View Post
    You trade off a modest amount of sharpness, at the wide end, with a
    35mm system but if you stick with a 22 mp back you don't gain a
    significant amount from an enlargement potential as compared to your
    current camera.
    The point that better gear doesn't make you take better pictures (just more print/post flexibility and image quality on the good images you do take) is perfectly valid. You're also of course right that the versatility of the A900 is higher, but Steven is really interested in Landscape.

    The image quality difference between a Phase One P25 and an Sony A900 is much more significant than the similar "marked resolution" of the systems would indicate. This can be attested to by the several A900 owners who were at the workshop that were able to freely work with both Phase and Sony systems.

    Those same people can attest to Steven's penchant for "crackling" sharp images corner-to-corner as well as the other measures of IQ like shadow color accuracy, tonal smoothness, 3D effect, and dynamic range.

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    Re: I'm going MFB with a Tech View for Landscape

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    sharp images corner-to-corner as well as the other measures of IQ like shadow color accuracy, tonal smoothness, 3D effect, and dynamic range.
    A few days ago I looked through the entire "fun pictures" thread of the A900 and that of the MFDB forum here. Do it by yourself... not to eye up the images and to do pixel peeping, just take the impression "over all". Great images in both the threads. But totally different look - either way which genre, either way who's the photographer.

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