Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

[Graham Mitchell]

This was about market share for Phase, and it's good news for Leaf users who must have been concerned. I don't think many at Leaf will keep their jobs in the long term. Phase will eventually be rebadging their own backs with a Leaf logo, rather than keeping two engineering divisions alive. Not a bad thing, especially if they merge the best of both technologies together.

If the Hy6 were to be discontinued, there would only be one active leaf shutter platform left (Hasselblad) and no camera left with a proper WLF. Phase and Leaf users will be stuck with the worst available camera body. That's the real tragedy. Phase was crazy to buy Leaf and not the Hy6! (A rotating 645 sensor like the P65+ on the Hy6 would be a dream combination). In fact, that would be such an obvious move that it makes me think they must have tried and the Hy6 is not for sale and must have some other future planned. We'll soon know.

 

[carstenw]

To be honest, the more I think about this move, the less I understand it. The cost can't be trivial, unless Kodak essentially gave Leaf to Phase for a vague promise to keep people employed or something. What does Phase need from Leaf? Bigger, tiltable screens?

I don't buy the "buying a customer base" argument. Leaf's proportion of the market, like Sinar's, has to be much smaller than either Phase's or Hasselblad's, and once the existing Leaf owners are done with their current back, what is to stop them from going to Hasselblad (or Leica)? What is the primary camera platform of Leaf users? The RZ67? The AFD? Phase would already have inherited those Leaf owners, since the CF backs are too expensive.

To me this smells more of desperation than cleverness. Time will show, however.

Graham, I am with you on the buying Leaf and not the Hy6 move. It is almost like they aimed and missed.

 

[Graham Mitchell]

To be honest, the more I think about this move, the less I understand it. The cost can't be trivial, unless Kodak essentially gave Leaf to Phase for a vague promise to keep people employed or something. What does Phase need from Leaf? Bigger, tiltable screens?

I can't think of anything that Phase can get from Leaf other than market share. No way will they keep developing two softwares, etc.

I think the cost probably was rather small. Kodak gets to clean up their folio, make a little cash on the sale at a time when there is little good news. Phase gets a chance at holding onto 10% of the MFDB market through the brand loyalty of exisiting user base. They might be hoping for an extra 1000 units sold per year, which is still worth millions to them.

Makes sense to me.

 

[thomas]

I don't buy the "buying a customer base" argument.

The total market worldwide is around 10.000 DBs per year. If there is only enough room for two players in the furture... it's a good move to save even a little customer base. If we talk about only 1000 Leaf customers worldwide it is 10% market share...

 

[Jack]

Phase and Leaf users will be stuck with the worst available camera body.

Graham:

I am going to disagree with you on this... It may be your OPINION, and that's totally fine. But, a few of us have used the Hy6 and did not care for it all that much, a differing opinion. (I definitely liked the adjustable grip and WLF, but a lot of the rest simply didn't work for me...) Anyway, that said, there are also a few things I don't like about the Hassy H body or the Mamiya AFD3 body either - IMO none of them are perfect. But at the end of the day, my opinion is I happen to prefer the Mamiya body over the other current alternatives -- at least for the present.

,

 

[thomas]

the Hy6 is not for sale and must have some other future planned.

http://www.spuer-sinn.net/blog1/?p=1141

Google translation: http://tinyurl.com/neuskj

 

[Graham Mitchell]

http://www.spuer-sinn.net/blog1/?p=1141

I just saw that. Sounds bad for F&H, but the Hy6 is owned by Jenoptik so this isn't actually the end of the Hy6 until Jenoptik pulls the plug. Someone might set up a new company, buying the tools, workshop, etc from F&H, just as Phase has done with Leaf, and sign a production deal with Jenoptik (or a new owner if Jenoptik sells).

 

[thomas]

Someone might set up a new company, buying the tools, workshop, etc from F&H, just as Phase has done with Leaf, and sign a production deal with Jenoptik (or a new owner if Jenoptik sells).

I hope so. But it would have been much more profitable to buy the Company F&H. To establish a new production factory elsewhere is quite expensive... unless you built it somewhere in the East...

 

[carstenw]

I am not so sure. There are strong indications that F&H had a lot of hidden debt, and I guess this is what killed them in the end, not the Hy6, as the article hints. The Hy6 apparently was selling well.

 

[Graham Mitchell]

What with this, the death of Michael Jackson, and the death of Farrah Fawcett, it's been quite a news day!

 

[Bob]

Well, except fpr the red suit photo taken in 1976, the Phase-Leaf news is the photo news of the day.
Of course, that 1976 photo is how I will remember Farrah Fawcett.
-bob

 

[Steve Hendrix]

What with this, the death of Michael Jackson, and the death of Farrah Fawcett, it's been quite a news day!

I know, and don't forget Shaquille O'neal traded to the Cavs...

I don't think I can take any more - way too much for one day. And I still have the NBA draft tonight (I'm a basketball fan).


Steve Hendrix
Phase One

 

[Bob]

Go Figure
LOL
-bob

 

[dougpeterson]

I can't think of anything that Phase can get from Leaf other than market share. No way will they keep developing two softwares, etc.

Keep in mind that not only is the sales market for digital backs pretty small but the market of talented Digital-Back-Savy marketing specialists, programers, engineers, sales/rep, service people is also very small.

Leaf had some very good people working for them. Buying leaf buys their brains and much of their intellectual property.

Moving forward Capture One support for Leaf backs will bring many photographers into the Capture One workflow which makes their eventual transition to Phase One or Pheaf backs much easier.

Also, Leaf makes some great products (as I have said many times before on this forum - before we bought them).

I don't see what's not to like about this.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
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[Graham Mitchell]

I don't see what's not to like about this.

Agreed, and I think it's a good thing. All that's unclear is the future of the Hy6/AFi.

 

[PeterA]

How much did Phase One 'pay' for Leaf Doug? Seems to be another example of a lot of noise - about not much really...

I am happy that good people are finding employement in good company - that is the real bonus here.

On the other hand I feel for all the employees @ F&H
I feel for all the customers who bought into Hy6/Afi
I feel for the negative consequences that Schnieder and Rodenstock will face
and ( it must be said) I am getting rather p***ed @ Jenoptic/Sinar total silence...

Put off enough for now - to cancel my order for the arTec and 3 lenses - unitl Jenoptic make some announcements regarding their stance on Sinar.

there are a great many customers of Leaf/Sinar and the Hy6/Afi - who may actually just exit interest in MFD capture all together - in effect making it all an even smaller market looking forward.

If all there is to choose from is a realtively clunky MF SLR from Mamiya system and Hasselblad - that isnt a good thing for anyone.

All in all a sad day in my books.

 

[hcubell]

How much did Phase One 'pay' for Leaf Doug?
All in all a sad day in my books.

How much did Phase pay?

1. About the same as they paid for Contax.
2. About the same as they originally put into the strategic alliance with Mamiya announced with great fanfare in 2006.
3. About the same as they put into the strategic alliance with Leica on the S2 also announced with great fanfare.

Answer? Bupkus. Not that they should have paid more. They got little, and gave little for it. This is a huge non-event. Look around at the product lineup in 12 months and ask what is better for mfd consumers because of this acquisition. Anything that detracts/distracts from the objective of developing a truly new camera body for Phase is a misstep, and that's what this misadventure is all about.

 

[Steve Hendrix]

How much did Phase pay?

1. About the same as they paid for Contax.
2. About the same as they originally put into the strategic alliance with Mamiya announced with great fanfare in 2006.
3. About the same as they put into the strategic alliance with Leica on the S2 also announced with great fanfare.

Answer? Bupkus. Not that they should have paid more. They got little, and gave little for it. This is a huge non-event. Look around at the product lineup in 12 months and ask what is better for mfd consumers because of this acquisition. Anything that detracts/distracts from the objective of developing a truly new camera body for Phase is a misstep, and that's what this misadventure is all about.

I think mfd consumers are better off with Leaf going forward rather than not. And that is what this aquisition (or whatever you want to call it Mr. Cubell) is about.

Amazing how we have a company with significant technical assets about to go kaput, their customers left in the dust and we come in, breathe life into them, and we're the bad guys.


Steve Hendrix
Phase One

 

[hcubell]

I think mfd consumers are better off with Leaf going forward rather than not. And that is what this aquisition (or whatever you want to call it Mr. Cubell) is about.

Amazing how we have a company with significant technical assets about to go kaput, their customers left in the dust and we come in, breathe life into them, and we're the bad guys.


Steve Hendrix
Phase One

You are not "bad guys" or "good guys". You are people who made a business decision because you thought it was in Phase's economic self interest. You probably insured that you put two competitors out of the way in one fell swoop for next to nothing. Big deal. Let's see what this "acquisition" does to advance and expand the range of options available to us 12 months from now. If you really want to do something valuable for all of us as consumers, dig DEEP into your pockets and fund the extended and expensive R&D effort to come up with a truly new and first class camera body, not a warmed over AFD VII. That would really be news and get our attention.

 

[Steve Hendrix]

You are not "bad guys" or "good guys". You are people who made a business decision because you thought it was in Phase's economic self interest. You probably insured that you put two competitors out of the way in one fell swoop for next to nothing. Big deal. Let's see what this "acquisition" does to advance and expand the range of options available to us 12 months from now. If you really want to do something valuable for all of us as consumers, dig DEEP into your pockets and fund the extended and expensive R&D effort to come up with a truly new and first class camera body, not a warmed over AFD VII. That would really be news and get our attention.

Regarding expanded options - it has already done that Howard, iby keeping Leaf alive as a viable solution rather than allowing them to wither. This aquisition wasn't meant to "get anyone's attention". And I believe it when we say that Leaf has significant advanced technology, not to mention talent and a loyal customer base that was attractive to us. It's not just you Howard, the whole atmosphere has been quite negative. For anyone who would consider Leaf or Phase One products, this is positive news. On the one hand, Leaf customers get new life from the company whose products they've purchased. On the other, Phase One customers can expect technology advances to their platform exceeding what was on the table before this transaction.

You're welcome to your opinion on what you think of our new camera that you've never even had your hands on.


Steve Hendrix
Phase One