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Thread: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

  1. #101
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    Guy: lucky!

  2. #102
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    Yes could have been much worse. Luckily just water based paint.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  3. #103
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    Just playing devil's advocate here - Phase bought Leaf assets but not Leaf itself. I assume that the original company Leaf is being closed? Given that Leaf owners have their warranty provided by Leaf does this mean that Leaf warranties are now worthless? Will there even be service available on original Leaf products?

  4. #104
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    I guess we will have to see how this all works out for the Leaf owners. I would assume there warranties would be included in any kind of sale like this and the same for repairs. It's interesting news good for the companies and owners involved but I do agree the field of MF is getting smaller with players and with Sinar sort of in the air with the Hy6 body as users this could also be dangerous as our options get smaller. I think the bottom line on this good for the Leaf users they have a new home and have a place to turn. Phase gains some market share and some additional expertise in the MF world but in the end the choices do get smaller at least as far as systems wide . Now we have 3 Sinar, Hassy and Phase.

    We do have Leica entering the field but not so sure I call it MF to a certain degree. I think the difference or what makes it MF is the removable back at least by some definition that most of us perceive.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  5. #105
    ddk
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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    Just playing devil's advocate here - Phase bought Leaf assets but not Leaf itself. I assume that the original company Leaf is being closed? Given that Leaf owners have their warranty provided by Leaf does this mean that Leaf warranties are now worthless? Will there even be service available on original Leaf products?
    That's how I see it too Graham, wouldn't be surprised if they sold the Leaf name to a third party. I'm not so worried about warranties and repairs in the short term but probably someone else will pick up the slack long term.

    On a personal note, this has put a damper on my plans for a new Aptus that I was getting, not sure if I'm going to go through with it now, of course that's assuming that there still is some kind of production line.

  6. #106
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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    We do have Leica entering the field but not so sure I call it MF to a certain degree. I think the difference or what makes it MF is the removable back at least by some definition that most of us perceive.
    In fairness, I think we should think of the Leica S2 as a MF entry. That is exactly what the original Mamiya ZD was considered when it was first released as a body without removable back, no? The S2 sensor size is not that much smaller that some of the earlier MFDBs, or even some of those being sold today, WRT sensor size, and not just number of pixels. Just my thoughts on this. It does remain to prove itself, but if one goes back to the recent survey posted in another thread, the S2 will likely meet all the criteria listed except the one about back. It will surely hold its own in lenses, image quality, system options and other stuff, as far as we have been led to believe from the marketing stuff, demos and interviews announcing its pending release. This will all remain to be proven in a few months to a year, but although it is more like a 35mm DSLR in design and such, it is still quite different in other respects, including sensor size, image circle and other MF "criteria".

    LJ

  7. #107
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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Yes could have been much worse. Luckily just water based paint.
    So what did you end up with, desert camouflage?
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  8. #108
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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    Just playing devil's advocate here - Phase bought Leaf assets but not Leaf itself. I assume that the original company Leaf is being closed? Given that Leaf owners have their warranty provided by Leaf does this mean that Leaf warranties are now worthless? Will there even be service available on original Leaf products?
    Quote Originally Posted by ddk View Post
    That's how I see it too Graham, wouldn't be surprised if they sold the Leaf name to a third party. I'm not so worried about warranties and repairs in the short term but probably someone else will pick up the slack long term.
    Here's yet another thought - Phase brought Leaf assets as Graham points out so now they have a completely new/different line. Do they sell just the name and keep the assets renaming them under the Phase banner?

    Just wild speculation...
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  9. #109
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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Creek View Post
    Here's yet another thought - Phase brought Leaf assets as Graham points out so now they have a completely new/different line. Do they sell just the name and keep the assets renaming them under the Phase banner?

    Just wild speculation...
    Just speculating, imo, with this move Phase removed a competitor from the market. We have no idea what Leaf's assets were but we do know that they already closed their doors some time ago. So what is there that Phase couldn't live without? Surely not Capture software, tooling? maybe, but I don't see them coming out with a redesigned case anytime soon. There's really nothing obvious to me there. Leaf's dealer network isn't an issue, they already know one another's distribution network. The only thing that I can come up with besides removing the competition is that Leaf was actually profitable and this was just a sound business investment, hah!

  10. #110
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    In fairness, I think we should think of the Leica S2 as a MF entry. That is exactly what the original Mamiya ZD was considered when it was first released as a body without removable back, no? The S2 sensor size is not that much smaller that some of the earlier MFDBs, or even some of those being sold today, WRT sensor size, and not just number of pixels. Just my thoughts on this. It does remain to prove itself, but if one goes back to the recent survey posted in another thread, the S2 will likely meet all the criteria listed except the one about back. It will surely hold its own in lenses, image quality, system options and other stuff, as far as we have been led to believe from the marketing stuff, demos and interviews announcing its pending release. This will all remain to be proven in a few months to a year, but although it is more like a 35mm DSLR in design and such, it is still quite different in other respects, including sensor size, image circle and other MF "criteria".

    LJ
    Exactly LJ and reason I said perceived as the Mamiya Zd was in the same boat as what some folks called MF or not. I guess the bottom line is there is no true definition that I have ever seen. So kind of a open question mark
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  11. #111
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    Quote Originally Posted by ddk View Post
    Just speculating, imo, with this move Phase removed a competitor from the market. We have no idea what Leaf's assets were but we do know that they already closed their doors some time ago. So what is there that Phase couldn't live without? Surely not Capture software, tooling? maybe, but I don't see them coming out with a redesigned case anytime soon. There's really nothing obvious to me there. Leaf's dealer network isn't an issue, they already know one another's distribution network. The only thing that I can come up with besides removing the competition is that Leaf was actually profitable and this was just a sound business investment, hah!
    Hard to say Phase removed them though. I mean they(Kodak) have been looking for a buyer for awhile now. i see it more as saved the users than removed a competitor , they did that on there own. Depends on how you look at it I guess but Hassy could have bought them too or even Canon or Nikon that have a bunch of money. I see good and bad in this. We are down to four no matter how we got there and that is a worry point.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  12. #112
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    Quote Originally Posted by ddk View Post
    The only thing that I can come up with besides removing the competition is that Leaf was actually profitable and this was just a sound business investment, hah!
    Assets sometimes include IP and/or the actual people that developed that IP. So by purchasing Leaf, they just maybe removed a competitor by name and acquired some key technology in a single stroke. Factor in there are likely some assets worth selling off, and maybe they got that first part netted out for really cheap.

    Just a thought...
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  13. #113
    Subscriber Member Georg Baumann's Avatar
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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    I remember when I was on Photokina 08, Sinar announced a cooperation with Leaf. Btw. It is still a head line on SINAR's main website. <shrugs> Nothing was sealed then, and Lorenz Koch was planing to go to Israel soon to put that baby to sleep, but I have not heard anything afterwards, and Lorenz is not working anymore for Sinar.

    At Sinar we have a sixty year long tradition of excellence in designing and building innovative and precise camera systems for photographers around the globe." said Wolfgang Keller, CEO of Sinar AG. "The new Leaf AFi-II digital back would complement our own digital product range perfectly, like the brand new eSprit 65, and with this cooperation we will be able to provide solutions for an even broader spectrum of professionals."
    Fascinating how a few months time can shake up that much.

    I wonder what the future for Sinar will be like, I am hearing all kind of rumors concerning Jenaoptik plans since a few weeks.

    I intend to think, at the end of the day, I'd hate to see companies like LEAF disappear, in my view, less competition certainly is no good news for endusers.

    The demand in this high end sector was driven to a degree by the ridiculous budgets available to marketing and advertisement agencies, hence paying outrageous sums to a small elite of star photographers and very serious money to a trail of second line photographers. Or am I wrong in that assumption?

    Now I would guess, from talking to friends long established in that business, and some openly admitting their books to be at least half empty, some of them even down to zero, the market deals with a large amount of shrinking which of course effects the weakest the most.

    Taking economical depression into account, the order of business should be consolidation, and re thinking of existing business models that were valid in the past, but are now pulverised to dust in face of the new reality.

    One way of looking at it is to look for new segments in the given market, and expand into their turf, but this can not happen on a pricing level we still face in the MFDB world. I think, and I stand to be corrected, the pricing of gear will have to come down further, and there is plenty of scope to do that.

    Interesting times for sure!

  14. #114
    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    What we see today in the MFDB business is clearly the result of recession. As budgets are significantly down, there is much less demand for new equipment. And as we see today already some saturation in the target segment of MFDBs, this is even worse. But I am also convinced that the advertisement market will revamp again pretty soon, if there are no further economic bubbles left for near future.

    I also believe that price levels have to come down further. A MF camera with MFDB and standard lens has to be available under 10k€ in order to get really into some sort of low mass market for MFDBs. Will this happen now faster with less competition? Hard to say, as this also means that price levels can be kept high. On the other hand all remaining MF vendors need to increase their sales numbers in order to survive, so they also need to come to the lower price MF segment.

    I think we will see entry level offers for under 10k especially with lower resolution and "older" MFDB designs, but on the other side the high end top level will stay in the same price region as today's 60MP backs.

    But forget about more competition in this area. And in fact I think that even Leica has already missed the train

  15. #115
    Member Frank Doorhof's Avatar
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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    @Peter,
    There are already a lot of sub 10K MF solutions.
    Think about the mamiya solutions and although I really don't like the ZD back the new Phase one backs on the Mamiya are a nice start for the people starting below 10K.

    And also hasselblad, in the netherlands you can buy a H3DII31 with lens for I believe 9950.00 euro.

  16. #116
    Subscriber Member Georg Baumann's Avatar
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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    Yup, got a call as well, below 10K for the Kit with 39MP, body and 80mm. Pretty amazing isn't it?

  17. #117
    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Doorhof View Post
    @Peter,

    And also hasselblad, in the netherlands you can buy a H3DII31 with lens for I believe 9950.00 euro.
    To my knowledge the H3D2 with 31MP without lens is available for 9990.- excl. VAT in Europe. Still some way to go till a complete camera with back and lens is there for less than 10k incl. VAT - final customer price.

    But I agree we are getting there - maybe it could be a bit faster

  18. #118
    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Georg Baumann View Post
    Yup, got a call as well, below 10K for the Kit with 39MP, body and 80mm. Pretty amazing isn't it?
    Georg,

    are you talking about the Hasselblad with 39MP back? Less than 10k including a lens would be a great price

  19. #119
    Member Frank Doorhof's Avatar
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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    You can get Phase one backs like the 18/20 with camera and lens below 10K at the moment.

  20. #120
    Subscriber Member Georg Baumann's Avatar
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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    Peter, I looked it up again, as I am not really interested in buying a Hassy I messed it up a bit, it was 31 MP not 39. Sorry about that!

  21. #121
    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Georg Baumann View Post
    Peter, I looked it up again, as I am not really interested in buying a Hassy I messed it up a bit, it was 31 MP not 39. Sorry about that!
    Same for me, after trying all these wonderful Phase backs recently and being able to use them on tech cams and also feeling the smooth and nice workflow with C1 Pro I am not much motivated to really look into Hasselblad. The price would need to be VERY much better, but this of course will not happen

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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    I think that in the climate of the current market they simply refused to offer one. An adapter is not a big deal...
    Do you think they would make one for Mamiya as well, as they formerly did for the eMotion?
    I would think that they go where the market is. Designing a new adapter for a camera for which you already have an old adapter is certainly possible, without breaking a sweat, but the demand for the adapters is not necessarily there. I would guess that Mamiya owners mostly buy Phase backs.

    Congratulations! I wish you a lot of fun and great captures with your new system. And I'm sure you will get both.
    Yes, thanks! It is quite the steep learning curve. I had to re-learn how to meter, of all things. Everything seems completely different somehow, even though I have been using the same camera and lenses with high-resolution B&W film. Weird.
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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    ...but the demand for the adapters is not necessarily there.
    So let's sum it up as another mistke in marketing. If I (as Contax user) would be interessted in the eSprit and can't find a note about compatibility (but can find e.g. V mount) on their web page I simply think it's not there...
    They could have announced all mounts without producing them... and if somene orders one they would simply say with adapter it takes 10 days delivery.
    But also I remember discussions on LuLa were TH had to defend the missing Contax mount ... and he didn't mention the possibility that there will be one if there is demand.
    Anway...

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Weird.
    maybe weird. But you get used to it quite quickly and will be very pleased with the results - I am dead sure. The 3.5/35 and especially the 4/120 macro you use will be extremly good with the DB.
    Have fun!

  24. #124
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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    Yes, these two lenses are awesome. I took my entire cemetary B&W film series with just those two lenses, and this trend looks to be continuing with my Sinar back. I also use the Hasselblad 110/2, but the adapter is off, and can't reach infinity. I will have to look for a better one. I have posted my first result in the photo thread.
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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    I have posted my first result in the photo thread.
    please don't take it personally - I stopped posting and commenting images in public photo forums some time ago (though made some few exceptions I actually regret). But let me say it looks promising, okay?! :-)

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