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Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

etrigan63

Active member
I, for one, see Phase One benefitting from Leaf's control systems (tilt-able touchscreen technology) and Leaf could gain access to Sensor+ technology, improving their ISO performance. Consolidating on C1 smoothes out the workflows and simplifies tech support on that end. And with Mamiya as a common shot platform (especially with the new digital-only body coming out soon) things become easier there too.
 

carstenw

Active member
Regarding expanded options - it has already done that Howard, iby keeping Leaf alive as a viable solution rather than allowing them to wither.
While not being quite as negative as Howard, I share his skepticism. In what form will Leaf be "kept alive"? No statements. In what form is Leaf owners' investment kept alive? No statements. In these days of no decent up-trade plans, I cannot see how this helps current Leaf owners, except by keeping their warranty useful (which is admittedly a good thing). I would hope that Phase devises a decent cross-trade plan for Leaf owners looking to switch, something with some real bite rather than the recent couple-of-bucks-for-your-old-back deals.

I cannot imagine that Phase will continue to fund Leaf in the same manner as they have been going. After all, they were losing money. So where will the cuts be? I would not feel safe if I was one of their Israeli employees. Keeping both lines of backs alive seems impossible in the long run, so what Phase's acquisition has done is extended the lease on life for Leaf and Leaf owners, and so far nothing more. It remains to be seen what Phase is *really* prepared to do. Phase may make the best back, but their politics are weird-alice.

Keep in mind that this is the same company which couldn't/wouldn't swallow the cost of upgrading the screen size in the Phase backs, due to retooling costs, as recently stated by either you or Doug on one of these forums.
 
S

smei_ch

Guest
....

I cannot imagine that Phase will continue to fund Leaf in the same manner as they have been going. After all, they were losing money.

.......
Do you have any facts to back up this claim? Kodak doesn't publish detailed figures, just consolidated reports.
 

Paratom

Well-known member
I have no idea what Phase and Leaf are planning but if you look into other idustries and mergers/aquisitions isnt it often the case that both brands/products would continue to exist but one just looks for cost savings by sharing certain resources?
For example R&D cost for parts which could be used in both systems, or sharing production capabilities, or sharing software development cost?

As we even can see in this thread there are some people who do like they AFI/Hy6 with its interchangable viewfinder, Rotating back, capabilities to use larger sensors in the future, Leaf-Shutter lenses and there are others to prefer the somewhat smaller and lighter Phase body/system, with focal plane shutter, and more DSLR-like appearance.

So why not continue to sell both systems and "catch" all those customers?
Sharing those cost for R&D and production could bring both, phase and Leaf into a stronger position vs other competitors like Hasselblad for example.

However this is just one scenario of many and I personally believe we just need patience etc. Overall I am glad that Leaf will survive.

Regarding holding off buying equipment - I can understand that position but on the other side I rather base my decision on what is available today, and what would fulfil my needs best, rather than on what could eventually dissappear or might appear one day. This article about F&H doesnt sound good though ;(
 
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carstenw

Active member
Do you have any facts to back up this claim? Kodak doesn't publish detailed figures, just consolidated reports.
It is generally known that photography in general, and the medium format segment in general, are under massive pressure from the bad economy. It would be a miracle if this were not the case.
 

Rethmeier

New member
If I was Phase,I would dump Leaf.I bet they purchased it only to get rid of the competition.
Also if I would ever go back to MFDB I probably purchase Phase,however it's clear that Hasselblad is the most complete system
 
S

smei_ch

Guest
It is generally known that photography in general, and the medium format segment in general, are under massive pressure from the bad economy. It would be a miracle if this were not the case.

A very general statement. No facts?
 
S

stevenkania

Guest
One thing that was very important for the MF users has now become a thing of the past.

Hasselblad was being criticized for deciding to va a "closed" system, and Phase and others were preferred greatly because of the ability to interchange components to some extent.

However now the industry is reducing to 2 or 3 (Hasselblad, Phase, Leica-if succesfull) main groups, and if you notice, all are heading to closed system eventually. No one can say that Leica is an open system for example. But Hasselblad is still accused for doing that, while Leicaphiles have not noticed that for Leica's strategy. Now Phase is in the same process, but not there yet completely. If you buy all your open system competitors, then what is left?

I own Hasselblad and Leica M8, and all Mamiya film cameras and lenses. I have no prejudice for any. For me the results count. And the moment I bought the HCD28 and HCD35-90 lenses, I agreed for the first time with Hasselblad's closed system. Otherwise I always had hoped to be able to use my existing DB with my Mamiya cameras. But not anymore.

The reason is the outstanding results that you get from a system, since lenses are designed accordingly, with compromises that may effectively be corrected with software, while improving the glass for other things. The result is just hard to beleive.
I like the HCD28, which is uncomparible with anything I have used until now. The HCD35-90 similarly is better than any 35mm or Mamiya zooms I heve used in the past. These are not even comparible.

Therefore from now on, I have to agree that "clsed systems" may yield better results, despite being more expensive and difficult to upgrade. The moves that are being made by Phase also excites me, because they have to be the side to push for further developments (hopefully not for even more pixels, but for photographic quality too, as they have always done).

I just wanted to remind you of the old discussion regarding Hasselblad's strategy. I know here is dangerous ground to write to. But these are also facts.

We need at least 3 competitors for better pricing and quality, and have to wish success to all 3 contenders to please stay afloat and continue to do the good products without further buying each other from now on.

Steve
 

carstenw

Active member
No one can say that Leica is an open system for example. But Hasselblad is still accused for doing that, while Leicaphiles have not noticed that for Leica's strategy.
A minor correction: everyone knows and has noticed that Leica is closed. No problem. So is Canon et al.

The problem with Hasselblad is that they were open, and then went closed. A lot of people were using Phase backs on H2 cameras back then, and after this move, they could no longer move forward in that direction. Some went to Hasselblad, some stuck with Phase and used another body. No one was happy to lose the option with no warning, especially those who preferred hybrid systems.

*That* is the problem, not simply being closed.
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
Having experienced the great freedom of "open" systems with Phase last week, I only can say I will never return to a closed system like Leica or Hassi.

Although I must admit that Phase is also closing their system a bit, at least if it comes to the Phase camera and their backs - seems to become similar to Hasselblad.

But Phase is still the most open system overall!
 

thomas

New member
The backs with adapter systems are the most open of all (Sinar eMotion/eSprit and Hasselblad CF)
are the CF backs continued (don't know...)? Is there a Contax mount for the new 50MP and 60MP Hasselblad backs?
As to the eSprit65LV I can't find Contax or Mamiya mount an Sinars webpage (quote: "Camera interface: Sinar Hy6, Sinar m, Hasselblad V 500 series, Hasselblad H1/H2"). And regarding Sinar DBs we have to wait and see in how far production will be continued. Maybe Sinar backtracks to what they came from: the construction of excellent cameras.

The Phase backs are available for all existing platforms (including RZ, V, Contax, H1/2 ... well, except of H3 and Hy6) - sure, no adapter system, but at least users can buy a brand new back for their system (and can change mount within a certain amount of time for free).
In this sense Phase is definitely the most open system (and BTW the AFI II is available for all platforms as well).
With Phase and Leaf the two companies team up that both continued to produce for the existing market, not only for the newly developed own camera platform (like Hasselblad and Sinar).
 

Graham Mitchell

New member
In this sense Phase is definitely the most open system
Sorry but I didn't get your point at all. How can a back with a fixed mount be more open than a back which will fit on many mounts? You are right that the eSprit65LV no longer supports the Contax interface but the eMotion series does.
 

thomas

New member
Sorry but I didn't get your point at all. How can a back with a fixed mount be more open than a back which will fit on many mounts? You are right that the eSprit65LV no longer supports the Contax interface but the eMotion series does.
the point is that Phase continues to produce NEW PRODUCTS for camera systems that are still alive in the market (though discontinued in production). I can order the newest Phase backs (P40+/P65+) right now for my Contax (or RZ or whatever). The mentioned CF and eMotion backs are discontinued AFAIK. At least they are not the latest generation of backs from the respective company.
Sole newest generation backs available for all plattforms are P40+/P65+ and AFI II.
 

thomas

New member
The eMotion backs are current models, and still available.
in this sense the P25+ is a current model as well...
There is no current replacement for the eMotion backs from Sinar, that's right.
But the eMotion backs are not the latest generation of backs offered by Sinar - this is just the eSprit.
 

Graham Mitchell

New member
But the eMotion backs are not the latest generation of backs offered by Sinar - this is just the eSprit.
The e75 is in its second generation, with larger LCD and improved high ISO performance. I don't know why you think the eMotion series is discontinued. Sinar certainly never made such a statement.
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
However now the industry is reducing to 2 or 3 (Hasselblad, Phase, Leica-if succesfull) main groups, and if you notice, all are heading to closed system eventually. No one can say that Leica is an open system for example. But Hasselblad is still accused for doing that, while Leicaphiles have not noticed that for Leica's strategy. Now Phase is in the same process, but not there yet completely. If you buy all your open system competitors, then what is left?
....

The reason is the outstanding results that you get from a system, since lenses are designed accordingly, with compromises that may effectively be corrected with software, while improving the glass for other things. The result is just hard to beleive.
I like the HCD28, which is uncomparible with anything I have used until now. The HCD35-90 similarly is better than any 35mm or Mamiya zooms I heve used in the past. These are not even comparible.

Therefore from now on, I have to agree that "clsed systems" may yield better results, despite being more expensive and difficult to upgrade. The moves that are being made by Phase also excites me, because they have to be the side to push for further developments (hopefully not for even more pixels, but for photographic quality too, as they have always done).


Having experienced the great freedom of "open" systems with Phase last week, I only can say I will never return to a closed system like Leica or Hassi.

Although I must admit that Phase is also closing their system a bit, at least if it comes to the Phase camera and their backs - seems to become similar to Hasselblad.

But Phase is still the most open system overall!
For what it's worth Hasselblad didn't need to disable 3rd party backs on the H3 to allow lens corrections. In fact the Capture One lens corrections for the HC glass which Hasselblad didn't purposefully lock (everything but the 28mm and 35-90mm) works every bit as good as the Phocus corrections (you can talk about enhanced metadata use all you want, but I dare you to show me a difference even at 100% views).

I strongly disagree that Phase is "heading to a closed system eventually".

Phase is still making, and will still make, service, and support new backs for Contax, Rollei 6008, Hasselblad H, Hasselblad V, Mamiya AFD 1/2/3, Mamiya RZ, as well as the Phase One Body. The backs have an integrated battery and can be moved without external accessories to any of dozens of view cameras and technical cameras, and the triggering mechanism is designed so that the back can be fired from ANY system on which it will physically mount provided that the system has a flash sync port (I've even seen Holga Phase systems). That integrated battery is a Canon-spec battery which can be purchased at any Wal Mart and is made by several off-brand makers. The raw file can be opened in C13, C14, PS, LR, RD, and RPP and can be converted to DNG to be opened in Aperture, Bibble etc. Furthermore the Phase One Body is an open platform that can accept backs from any current/legacy manufacturer which fits on a Mamiya body and can accept lenses from the Hasselblad V, Pentax 6, Hartblei, manual focus mamiya glass, 1st gen AF mamiya glass and Phase One digital glass. It also uses AA batteries which are about the least proprietary battery one can find.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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