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Thread: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

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    Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    As things keep shifting, this bit of news may or may not change things in the MF world. Saw this on Luminous Landscape this morning. I am sure more info will emerge, along with discussions.

    http://www.luminous-landscape.com/whatsnew/

    LJ

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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    Whoa, that came out of the blue. I wonder if Sinar's agreement with Leaf to supply Leaf high-end backs with their cameras is still relevant?

    ...and then there were three...
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    Writing been written on the wall for some time now. Just waited until it came to bear. This immediately proves one thing immediately with investment in Mamiya and now this. Phase One seems to have the the financial backing to do just about anything. This only proves to me as a phase owner my future with there products and a growing company to expand the system. Bottom line a smart choice for me and my decisions on what MF system was and is a valued choice I made.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Writing been written on the wall for some time now. Just waited until it came to bear. This immediately proves one thing immediately with investment in Mamiya and now this. Phase One seems to have the the financial backing to do just about anything. This only proves to me as a phase owner my future with there products and a growing company to expand the system. Bottom line a smart choice for me and my decisions on what MF system was and is a valued choice I made.

    I agree. I believe our current financial status and our business capabilities have been underestimated by some.


    Steve Hendrix
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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    wow
    I see this as one more step closer to a Phase/Hasselblad future....
    I guess we'll have to wait and see
    ( so can you tether leaf backs to C1 in the future??, I know no one knows that answer yet )
    and what does this mean to Leica? if anything.
    what will this do to the standing relationship between Leaf and the AFi/Hy6 ???
    Will phase buy out the AFi as well ???
    will we ever see a phase back on the AFi ???
    interesting to say the least.
    am

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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    These are great news!

    Such a cooperation - if it is a real cooperation, which I do not doubt a bit - can only bring even stronger and more innovative products and an acceleration of development of new technologies.

    For me already was clear that Phase was the market leader in revenue as well as technology of MFDBs over the past years. Now this shows even better commitment for the future of MFDBs and cameras and OPEN SYSTEMS! Which is absolutely great news.

    Have so far not been buying into one vendor or product, but the decision is pretty clear now.

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    Quote Originally Posted by arashm View Post
    wow
    I see this as one more step closer to a Phase/Hasselblad future....
    I guess we'll have to wait and see
    ( so can you tether leaf backs to C1 in the future??, I know no one knows that answer yet )
    and what does this mean to Leica? if anything.
    what will this do to the standing relationship between Leaf and the AFi/Hy6 ???
    Will phase buy out the AFi as well ???
    will we ever see a phase back on the AFi ???
    interesting to say the least.
    am
    Think it would be easy to buy the AFi and all around, seems to be cheap in the moment Maybe this will happen? Would make some sense and bring lot consolidation.

    WRT Leica I see their chances shrinking further. Not only will Hasselblad give them real hard time on pricing, they now also have an even more than potent and large competitor in Phase.

    Bad for Leica.

    GOOD FOR PHASE

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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    Good news. Two strong competitors with virtual market ownership will push faster tech innovation and more price competition. Helps keep everyone on their toes.

    While Leaf will continue to operate under own name, will be some time to see how weeding out of product over-lap, cross-pollination etc., will work and what the ultimate combined product portfolio from Phase/Leaf + Mamiya will look like. Nice move by Phase to acquire an installed user base, engineering talent, How the Hi6 will fit in with the Phamiya relationship, if at all, I expect will be up in air for some time. I would expect top see Leaf integrated into the C1 workflow - helps expand Phase's software base, avoids duplicate software teams, etc.

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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm under the impression that the Leica S2 will ship with C1 software as it's raw processing SW...
    I see this as one more alliance for phase.
    am

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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    Peter,
    Not sure that OPEN versus CLOSED systems is really relevant after this. Essentially, there may be three systems (Phase, Hasselblad, Leica) and each will be more or less "closed" to the others.

    While all of this consolidation and stuff sounds great, what happens to the rest of the gear lineup beyond the backs that Phase makes? What is really happening with bodies and lenses? Where are the leaf shutter lenses and T/S lenses from Phase/Mamiya?

    Not saying any of this to be disparaging, but fewer players, even if they will claim to preserve the name and direction of the newly acquired others does not mean it will always be a better or healthier situation. It is good to see struggling entities that do produce good parts be kept viable to some degree, but how long can that be sustained?

    Honestly, though we may have seen this coming, as Guy states, we still really have no real idea of what this means going forward, and for how long. Phase may become the great aggregator/consolidator operation for MF, but they now have a lot of very different pieces to really get assimilated. If they do not keep up with advances in bodies and lenses, like Hasselblad is doing, or Leica may be offering, so what if they have great backs that cannot be used with equally great bodies and lenses? Not saying they are in that situation now, but that is a possible future they will have to manage, I think.

    LJ

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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    I think 'alliance' (as per Leica's description of the arrangement on announcement day) is a (cough) bit (cough) of an overstatement. You can C1 with any number of cameras - the fact it will be able to 'develop' S2 files (DNG?) and will ship in the box with the body is no big whoop IMHO.

    Some of LJL's points are well made - Phase will have it's management talent now pretty busy integrating Leaf and they need to figure out the eventual depth and 'permanence' of their Mamiya relationship. Hassy is not exactly the type to sit back and whistle while Phase dots the i's and crosses the t's.

    Not implying it's going to happen by ANY means, but many a great firm has blown it's own foot off during an acquisition by taking it's eye off the ball.

    As for Leica being a player in MF - I'll wait until they actually start shipping the S2 in volume. Personally, I'm becoming more and more convinced that the S2, while a great idea (had it been launched x years ago in the 'bad old days' of the MFDB market), is going to be too little, too late, too costly and, as a result, potentially crippling for Leica.

    While the S2 was intended to allow Leica side-step the 'eat your own young' DSLR market with a product where they could better justify their 'premium' label, it appears as if they will be essentially entering a smaller volume/larger sensor version of just that. I wish them luck, but...
    Last edited by robmac; 25th June 2009 at 08:19.

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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    Leica could have just as well engineered the S2 to be more Phamiya-like with an external back attachment. Their strength is their glass, not sensors and firmware or software for that matter. Sure it would be clunky, but would have kept them focused on their core strengths.
    -bob

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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    i am more concerned about pricing as leaf seemed to be a lot more affordable then phase. Not that pahse owns leaf will prices rise for leaf owners? Sorry as I am a pro without the clients to buy a digital back and wanting one for my own work I am concerned.
    www.davidseelig.com

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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    We just have to wait and see what we get with the S2, I hope that it builds on the IQ of the dmr and not the M8 which I feel never really measured up to it. Personally I have very high hopes for it.

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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    I hope that this means that Phase gets access to the Hy6. Leaf's existing partnership with Sinar about high-end backs might mean that Phase would be able to focus on backs and 645 cameras, and Sinar could handle the Hy6, M, F- and P- lines, as well as the arTec, and in this Phase-centric universe, Hasselblad's strong position starts looking like a subset of Phase's. Then again, Hasselblad does some things really really well, so maybe things would stabilize at that point.

    I guess the next thing is to find out what is going on with the Hy6, Franke&Heidecke, Schneider glass, and Sinar.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    what is going on? I was about to get Sinar and now I hear about Phase buying Leaf

    does it mean I can use hy6 cameras with phase or what does it mean

    why would phase buy leaf ?

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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    I hope that this means that Phase gets access to the Hy6.
    wait and see: http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/...dpost&p=293670

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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    Classic acquisition - suitable vague announcement and the details will slowly (emphasis here) trickle out. Good news for Leaf users and IMHO industry but ST there will be FAR more questions on what will be left standing or changed from Leaf than there will be answers.

    Why do it? Combo of (at very favorable prices):

    - Acquisition of an installed base of users (hardware and software) to migrate to future Phleafmiya (someone had to say it first) products

    - Further to above, makes a larger percentage of the Leaf base less likely to shed Leaf gear for Hassy. Now they have to LOSE the Leaf user vs. CHASE them head-to-head with Hassy (who, IMHO, has MUCH better Marketing).

    - Acquisition of hard/software talent, design and production facilities.

    - Possible access to Sinar/F&H body/lens tech/usage - helps keep Mamiya side of Phamiya honest.

    Since it appears Leaf was logically shopping itself, one can assume they chatted to one degree or other with Hassy. However, this deal makes more sense for Phase as they have yet (stress here) to offer a fully integrated or 'closed' system. The integration of Leaf tech into a fully integrated system being far more costly in terms of time, management bandwidth and $$ for Hassy.

    The question is how Phase will leverage the deal into a more integrated offering vs an la carte offering of (in future) compatible parts - some of which overlap at current. I don't expect to see a lot of the Leaf catalog left at the end of the day. That said, if I were a Leaf shooter, this would be a nice breath of fresh air into what was looking like a crappy situation.

    In the short-term I'd expect to see some sweet offers from Hassy as Phase manages the integration. You may also see some nice prices on Leaf product as any left-over stock that will not be kept as active product is purged.
    Last edited by robmac; 25th June 2009 at 12:32.

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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Phleafmiya
    I vote for: "Leave 1" :-)

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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    I hear you. 'Phleafmiya' just doesn't roll of the tongue like 'Phamiya' did. ;> How about 'Phleamiya' (flee mee ya). Then there's 'Phleya' (flee ya). They need to buy-out Mamiya so we can keep it simple ;>

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    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    This was about market share for Phase, and it's good news for Leaf users who must have been concerned. I don't think many at Leaf will keep their jobs in the long term. Phase will eventually be rebadging their own backs with a Leaf logo, rather than keeping two engineering divisions alive. Not a bad thing, especially if they merge the best of both technologies together.

    If the Hy6 were to be discontinued, there would only be one active leaf shutter platform left (Hasselblad) and no camera left with a proper WLF. Phase and Leaf users will be stuck with the worst available camera body. That's the real tragedy. Phase was crazy to buy Leaf and not the Hy6! (A rotating 645 sensor like the P65+ on the Hy6 would be a dream combination). In fact, that would be such an obvious move that it makes me think they must have tried and the Hy6 is not for sale and must have some other future planned. We'll soon know.

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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    To be honest, the more I think about this move, the less I understand it. The cost can't be trivial, unless Kodak essentially gave Leaf to Phase for a vague promise to keep people employed or something. What does Phase need from Leaf? Bigger, tiltable screens?

    I don't buy the "buying a customer base" argument. Leaf's proportion of the market, like Sinar's, has to be much smaller than either Phase's or Hasselblad's, and once the existing Leaf owners are done with their current back, what is to stop them from going to Hasselblad (or Leica)? What is the primary camera platform of Leaf users? The RZ67? The AFD? Phase would already have inherited those Leaf owners, since the CF backs are too expensive.

    To me this smells more of desperation than cleverness. Time will show, however.

    Graham, I am with you on the buying Leaf and not the Hy6 move. It is almost like they aimed and missed.
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    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    To be honest, the more I think about this move, the less I understand it. The cost can't be trivial, unless Kodak essentially gave Leaf to Phase for a vague promise to keep people employed or something. What does Phase need from Leaf? Bigger, tiltable screens?
    I can't think of anything that Phase can get from Leaf other than market share. No way will they keep developing two softwares, etc.

    I think the cost probably was rather small. Kodak gets to clean up their folio, make a little cash on the sale at a time when there is little good news. Phase gets a chance at holding onto 10% of the MFDB market through the brand loyalty of exisiting user base. They might be hoping for an extra 1000 units sold per year, which is still worth millions to them.

    Makes sense to me.

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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    I don't buy the "buying a customer base" argument.
    The total market worldwide is around 10.000 DBs per year. If there is only enough room for two players in the furture... it's a good move to save even a little customer base. If we talk about only 1000 Leaf customers worldwide it is 10% market share...

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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    Phase and Leaf users will be stuck with the worst available camera body.
    Graham:

    I am going to disagree with you on this... It may be your OPINION, and that's totally fine. But, a few of us have used the Hy6 and did not care for it all that much, a differing opinion. (I definitely liked the adjustable grip and WLF, but a lot of the rest simply didn't work for me...) Anyway, that said, there are also a few things I don't like about the Hassy H body or the Mamiya AFD3 body either - IMO none of them are perfect. But at the end of the day, my opinion is I happen to prefer the Mamiya body over the other current alternatives -- at least for the present.

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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    the Hy6 is not for sale and must have some other future planned.
    http://www.spuer-sinn.net/blog1/?p=1141

    Google translation: http://tinyurl.com/neuskj

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    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    I just saw that. Sounds bad for F&H, but the Hy6 is owned by Jenoptik so this isn't actually the end of the Hy6 until Jenoptik pulls the plug. Someone might set up a new company, buying the tools, workshop, etc from F&H, just as Phase has done with Leaf, and sign a production deal with Jenoptik (or a new owner if Jenoptik sells).

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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    Someone might set up a new company, buying the tools, workshop, etc from F&H, just as Phase has done with Leaf, and sign a production deal with Jenoptik (or a new owner if Jenoptik sells).
    I hope so. But it would have been much more profitable to buy the Company F&H. To establish a new production factory elsewhere is quite expensive... unless you built it somewhere in the East...

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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    I am not so sure. There are strong indications that F&H had a lot of hidden debt, and I guess this is what killed them in the end, not the Hy6, as the article hints. The Hy6 apparently was selling well.
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    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    What with this, the death of Michael Jackson, and the death of Farrah Fawcett, it's been quite a news day!

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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    Well, except fpr the red suit photo taken in 1976, the Phase-Leaf news is the photo news of the day.
    Of course, that 1976 photo is how I will remember Farrah Fawcett.
    -bob

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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    What with this, the death of Michael Jackson, and the death of Farrah Fawcett, it's been quite a news day!
    I know, and don't forget Shaquille O'neal traded to the Cavs...

    I don't think I can take any more - way too much for one day. And I still have the NBA draft tonight (I'm a basketball fan).


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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    Go Figure
    LOL
    -bob

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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    I can't think of anything that Phase can get from Leaf other than market share. No way will they keep developing two softwares, etc.
    Keep in mind that not only is the sales market for digital backs pretty small but the market of talented Digital-Back-Savy marketing specialists, programers, engineers, sales/rep, service people is also very small.

    Leaf had some very good people working for them. Buying leaf buys their brains and much of their intellectual property.

    Moving forward Capture One support for Leaf backs will bring many photographers into the Capture One workflow which makes their eventual transition to Phase One or Pheaf backs much easier.

    Also, Leaf makes some great products (as I have said many times before on this forum - before we bought them).

    I don't see what's not to like about this.

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    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    I don't see what's not to like about this.
    Agreed, and I think it's a good thing. All that's unclear is the future of the Hy6/AFi.

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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    How much did Phase One 'pay' for Leaf Doug? Seems to be another example of a lot of noise - about not much really...

    I am happy that good people are finding employement in good company - that is the real bonus here.

    On the other hand I feel for all the employees @ F&H
    I feel for all the customers who bought into Hy6/Afi
    I feel for the negative consequences that Schnieder and Rodenstock will face
    and ( it must be said) I am getting rather p***ed @ Jenoptic/Sinar total silence...

    Put off enough for now - to cancel my order for the arTec and 3 lenses - unitl Jenoptic make some announcements regarding their stance on Sinar.

    there are a great many customers of Leaf/Sinar and the Hy6/Afi - who may actually just exit interest in MFD capture all together - in effect making it all an even smaller market looking forward.

    If all there is to choose from is a realtively clunky MF SLR from Mamiya system and Hasselblad - that isnt a good thing for anyone.

    All in all a sad day in my books.

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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    How much did Phase One 'pay' for Leaf Doug?
    All in all a sad day in my books.
    How much did Phase pay?

    1. About the same as they paid for Contax.
    2. About the same as they originally put into the strategic alliance with Mamiya announced with great fanfare in 2006.
    3. About the same as they put into the strategic alliance with Leica on the S2 also announced with great fanfare.

    Answer? Bupkus. Not that they should have paid more. They got little, and gave little for it. This is a huge non-event. Look around at the product lineup in 12 months and ask what is better for mfd consumers because of this acquisition. Anything that detracts/distracts from the objective of developing a truly new camera body for Phase is a misstep, and that's what this misadventure is all about.

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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    Quote Originally Posted by hcubell View Post
    How much did Phase pay?

    1. About the same as they paid for Contax.
    2. About the same as they originally put into the strategic alliance with Mamiya announced with great fanfare in 2006.
    3. About the same as they put into the strategic alliance with Leica on the S2 also announced with great fanfare.

    Answer? Bupkus. Not that they should have paid more. They got little, and gave little for it. This is a huge non-event. Look around at the product lineup in 12 months and ask what is better for mfd consumers because of this acquisition. Anything that detracts/distracts from the objective of developing a truly new camera body for Phase is a misstep, and that's what this misadventure is all about.

    I think mfd consumers are better off with Leaf going forward rather than not. And that is what this aquisition (or whatever you want to call it Mr. Cubell) is about.

    Amazing how we have a company with significant technical assets about to go kaput, their customers left in the dust and we come in, breathe life into them, and we're the bad guys.


    Steve Hendrix
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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix/Phase One View Post
    I think mfd consumers are better off with Leaf going forward rather than not. And that is what this aquisition (or whatever you want to call it Mr. Cubell) is about.

    Amazing how we have a company with significant technical assets about to go kaput, their customers left in the dust and we come in, breathe life into them, and we're the bad guys.


    Steve Hendrix
    Phase One
    You are not "bad guys" or "good guys". You are people who made a business decision because you thought it was in Phase's economic self interest. You probably insured that you put two competitors out of the way in one fell swoop for next to nothing. Big deal. Let's see what this "acquisition" does to advance and expand the range of options available to us 12 months from now. If you really want to do something valuable for all of us as consumers, dig DEEP into your pockets and fund the extended and expensive R&D effort to come up with a truly new and first class camera body, not a warmed over AFD VII. That would really be news and get our attention.

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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    Quote Originally Posted by hcubell View Post
    You are not "bad guys" or "good guys". You are people who made a business decision because you thought it was in Phase's economic self interest. You probably insured that you put two competitors out of the way in one fell swoop for next to nothing. Big deal. Let's see what this "acquisition" does to advance and expand the range of options available to us 12 months from now. If you really want to do something valuable for all of us as consumers, dig DEEP into your pockets and fund the extended and expensive R&D effort to come up with a truly new and first class camera body, not a warmed over AFD VII. That would really be news and get our attention.

    Regarding expanded options - it has already done that Howard, iby keeping Leaf alive as a viable solution rather than allowing them to wither. This aquisition wasn't meant to "get anyone's attention". And I believe it when we say that Leaf has significant advanced technology, not to mention talent and a loyal customer base that was attractive to us. It's not just you Howard, the whole atmosphere has been quite negative. For anyone who would consider Leaf or Phase One products, this is positive news. On the one hand, Leaf customers get new life from the company whose products they've purchased. On the other, Phase One customers can expect technology advances to their platform exceeding what was on the table before this transaction.

    You're welcome to your opinion on what you think of our new camera that you've never even had your hands on.


    Steve Hendrix
    Phase One

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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    I, for one, see Phase One benefitting from Leaf's control systems (tilt-able touchscreen technology) and Leaf could gain access to Sensor+ technology, improving their ISO performance. Consolidating on C1 smoothes out the workflows and simplifies tech support on that end. And with Mamiya as a common shot platform (especially with the new digital-only body coming out soon) things become easier there too.
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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix/Phase One View Post
    Regarding expanded options - it has already done that Howard, iby keeping Leaf alive as a viable solution rather than allowing them to wither.
    While not being quite as negative as Howard, I share his skepticism. In what form will Leaf be "kept alive"? No statements. In what form is Leaf owners' investment kept alive? No statements. In these days of no decent up-trade plans, I cannot see how this helps current Leaf owners, except by keeping their warranty useful (which is admittedly a good thing). I would hope that Phase devises a decent cross-trade plan for Leaf owners looking to switch, something with some real bite rather than the recent couple-of-bucks-for-your-old-back deals.

    I cannot imagine that Phase will continue to fund Leaf in the same manner as they have been going. After all, they were losing money. So where will the cuts be? I would not feel safe if I was one of their Israeli employees. Keeping both lines of backs alive seems impossible in the long run, so what Phase's acquisition has done is extended the lease on life for Leaf and Leaf owners, and so far nothing more. It remains to be seen what Phase is *really* prepared to do. Phase may make the best back, but their politics are weird-alice.

    Keep in mind that this is the same company which couldn't/wouldn't swallow the cost of upgrading the screen size in the Phase backs, due to retooling costs, as recently stated by either you or Doug on one of these forums.
    Carsten - Website

  43. #43
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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    ....

    I cannot imagine that Phase will continue to fund Leaf in the same manner as they have been going. After all, they were losing money.

    .......
    Do you have any facts to back up this claim? Kodak doesn't publish detailed figures, just consolidated reports.

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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    I have no idea what Phase and Leaf are planning but if you look into other idustries and mergers/aquisitions isnt it often the case that both brands/products would continue to exist but one just looks for cost savings by sharing certain resources?
    For example R&D cost for parts which could be used in both systems, or sharing production capabilities, or sharing software development cost?

    As we even can see in this thread there are some people who do like they AFI/Hy6 with its interchangable viewfinder, Rotating back, capabilities to use larger sensors in the future, Leaf-Shutter lenses and there are others to prefer the somewhat smaller and lighter Phase body/system, with focal plane shutter, and more DSLR-like appearance.

    So why not continue to sell both systems and "catch" all those customers?
    Sharing those cost for R&D and production could bring both, phase and Leaf into a stronger position vs other competitors like Hasselblad for example.

    However this is just one scenario of many and I personally believe we just need patience etc. Overall I am glad that Leaf will survive.

    Regarding holding off buying equipment - I can understand that position but on the other side I rather base my decision on what is available today, and what would fulfil my needs best, rather than on what could eventually dissappear or might appear one day. This article about F&H doesnt sound good though ;(
    Last edited by Paratom; 25th June 2009 at 23:38.

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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    Quote Originally Posted by smei_ch View Post
    Do you have any facts to back up this claim? Kodak doesn't publish detailed figures, just consolidated reports.
    It is generally known that photography in general, and the medium format segment in general, are under massive pressure from the bad economy. It would be a miracle if this were not the case.
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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    If I was Phase,I would dump Leaf.I bet they purchased it only to get rid of the competition.
    Also if I would ever go back to MFDB I probably purchase Phase,however it's clear that Hasselblad is the most complete system

  47. #47
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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    It is generally known that photography in general, and the medium format segment in general, are under massive pressure from the bad economy. It would be a miracle if this were not the case.

    A very general statement. No facts?

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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    Quote Originally Posted by smei_ch View Post
    A very general statement. No facts?
    There is any number of unsubstantiated claims in the average thread around here, or in any other forum. This is one of the least contentious. What is your point, or is there none?
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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    I hope its ok to post thislink but I think there we have some more information: http://www.dpreview.com/news/0906/09...aseoneleaf.asp

  50. #50
    stevenkania
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    Re: Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....

    One thing that was very important for the MF users has now become a thing of the past.

    Hasselblad was being criticized for deciding to va a "closed" system, and Phase and others were preferred greatly because of the ability to interchange components to some extent.

    However now the industry is reducing to 2 or 3 (Hasselblad, Phase, Leica-if succesfull) main groups, and if you notice, all are heading to closed system eventually. No one can say that Leica is an open system for example. But Hasselblad is still accused for doing that, while Leicaphiles have not noticed that for Leica's strategy. Now Phase is in the same process, but not there yet completely. If you buy all your open system competitors, then what is left?

    I own Hasselblad and Leica M8, and all Mamiya film cameras and lenses. I have no prejudice for any. For me the results count. And the moment I bought the HCD28 and HCD35-90 lenses, I agreed for the first time with Hasselblad's closed system. Otherwise I always had hoped to be able to use my existing DB with my Mamiya cameras. But not anymore.

    The reason is the outstanding results that you get from a system, since lenses are designed accordingly, with compromises that may effectively be corrected with software, while improving the glass for other things. The result is just hard to beleive.
    I like the HCD28, which is uncomparible with anything I have used until now. The HCD35-90 similarly is better than any 35mm or Mamiya zooms I heve used in the past. These are not even comparible.

    Therefore from now on, I have to agree that "clsed systems" may yield better results, despite being more expensive and difficult to upgrade. The moves that are being made by Phase also excites me, because they have to be the side to push for further developments (hopefully not for even more pixels, but for photographic quality too, as they have always done).

    I just wanted to remind you of the old discussion regarding Hasselblad's strategy. I know here is dangerous ground to write to. But these are also facts.

    We need at least 3 competitors for better pricing and quality, and have to wish success to all 3 contenders to please stay afloat and continue to do the good products without further buying each other from now on.

    Steve

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