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Thread: Stitching vs wideangles

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    Stitching vs wideangles

    I wonder about the pros and cons for a tech camera of stitching vs using a wider lens and why people stitch.

    The pros for stitching I see is:
    -(much) higher resolution
    -eventually less distorsion
    -maybe you need less lenses

    The pros for using a wider lens instead of stitching I see:
    -you need less time taking the image and less time processing it (specially if you also use white shading)
    - you can judge the exposure of the whole image in one histogramm - so it should be easier to find the right exposure compared to maybe having different bright subjects in the left and right of 2 stitched images
    - you dont have any problems with subject movement (clouds, trees in the wind, people,....
    - you capture one moment as it was when using a wide angle, a stitched images is like melting different points in of time into one image by software(maybe more a mental thing)
    -better/easier for composition

    And maybe for those who own both, a nice ultra wide angle (lets say 23,24,28) and a lens with large image circle (lets say 45,47,...) what do you prefer: stitchingor just using the wide angle and why?

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    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Stitching vs wideangles

    Subject movement isn't usually an issue, especially if you manually mask the stitched layers yourself. Clouds are probably the worst offenders, on a windy day.

    One advantage of stitching you missed is the extra FOV possible with this method, which is the main reason I use it. Secondary reason is the extra resolution.

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    Re: Stitching vs wideangles

    I think I agree to all of your points.
    Upside of wider lenses and single shot is certainly better corner sharpness.
    On the other hand if you are up to big prints stitching is superior as long as corner sharpness is within a certain quality. I feel that I can get very good results at around 70MP-80MP with the P45/47XL in conventional image format (i.e. cropped to 3:4 or 2:3). So it's basically twice the image plane of the P45.
    I think there is a lot to figure out for your particular needs and demands...

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    Re: Stitching vs wideangles

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    I think I agree to all of your points.
    Upside of wider lenses and single shot is certainly better corner sharpness.
    On the other hand if you are up to big prints stitching is superior as long as corner sharpness is within a certain quality. I feel that I can get very good results at around 70MP-80MP with the P45/47XL in conventional image format (i.e. cropped to 3:4 or 2:3). So it's basically twice the image plane of the P45.
    I think there is a lot to figure out for your particular needs and demands...
    I'd have to agree with Thomas on this. Corner sharpness and sheer file size would be incredible with stitching, especially if you do a 3+ image stitch. The big factor is what subject matter you will be shooting. If you are doing interiors or landscape, you would have the luxury of stitching. With other faster moving subjects you may consider single shot w/ wide lenses.

    One more thing to consider is what camera you will be shooting with. If it's a standard MF body, you will have to consider one of the many pano head options that are currently on the market. Another option that can offer both wide angle and stitching (in camera) are the Cambo WDS or RS. There are current threads from Don Libby of Iron Creek Photography comparing both systems here on Get DPI.

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    Re: Stitching vs wideangles

    Quote Originally Posted by Clawery View Post
    I'd have to agree with Thomas on this. Corner sharpness and sheer file size would be incredible with stitching, especially if you do a 3+ image stitch. The big factor is what subject matter you will be shooting. If you are doing interiors or landscape, you would have the luxury of stitching. With other faster moving subjects you may consider single shot w/ wide lenses.

    One more thing to consider is what camera you will be shooting with. If it's a standard MF body, you will have to consider one of the many pano head options that are currently on the market. Another option that can offer both wide angle and stitching (in camera) are the Cambo WDS or RS. There are current threads from Don Libby of Iron Creek Photography comparing both systems here on Get DPI.

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    Chris,
    personally I have decided for the Artec, but I was interested in the subject in general.
    It might influence my future lens choices. For now/ as a start I have decided for a "compromise" lens, the 35HR. It doesnt allow me much stitching/shift, but it has the angle of vieew which I find usefull for many shots.
    Now I was thinking which focal length might be ideal if one wanted to do stitching. a shorter focal length with a large image circle (like the coming 40mm HR or the Schneider 35 XL) or a little longer focal length with an even larger image circle (like th 47 XL, or even something in the 60-100mm range)
    I have never been a fan of stiching by turning the camera, but with shift/sliding adapter it could be easier/more accurate/better.
    Cheers, Tom

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    Re: Stitching vs wideangles

    I do a lot of my Pano shots with longer lenses like the Phase 150mm for landscape work. Sometimes in landscapes you just can't get close and more times I find a longer lens the answer to this. One reason I have not gone to a tech camera yet but that maybe my style of shooting also. But my last 3 shot Pano of Lake Powell was the 150 and it's killer sharp corner to corner. Now this is me and my style but my fear is a tech camera will slow my creativity. I like to shoot more freeing feeling. Hard to describe but I am a floater when I shoot
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Stitching vs wideangles

    keep in mind that panos and stitches are different, panos are not subject to corner sharpness/lightfalloff that occurs near the fringe of the lens' image circle used in a stitch.
    othoh, a stitch keeps the back in the same plane so you won't have perspective changes

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    Re: Stitching vs wideangles

    Thanks John I should have brought that up. Thanks for explaining that
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Stitching vs wideangles

    Stitching is a term used these days to describe any joining of images together, regardless of whether the sensor moved around the plane, or the whole camera moved.

    Of course each technique has its pros and cons as you point out.

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    Re: Stitching vs wideangles

    Funny that this should be the first thing I read this morning. Ken Doo and I were talking and lenses and what would make a good "one-lens wonder" for a technical camera. Here's my take on stitching and wide angles...

    24mm: No option of movements so this is a true one shot wonder. I guess one could attempt to do a panoramic by physically moving the camera using some sort of panning device however I've found the 24 can produce a large enough image that can be cropped into panorama proportions with little effort. You can also squeeze a little more by using 5mm shifts however you need to be prepared for the slight vignetting that'll occur.

    35mm: This is a sweet lens capable of shifts going into the extreme.

    72mm: Get out there a little bit better than the 35 with movements past 10mm.

    120mm: Will really bring the viewer into the scene and appears to be very friendly on movements.

    Back in the days of shooting 35mm I often used very long lens for my landscapes out to a 500 that I had for awhile.

    So which is better stitching or one-shot wide. It really depends on a couple factors; what lens do you have with you and more importantly what are you attempting to convey/capture. I agree with just about everything that's been said about both regarding IQ so there's no need for me to go there. If I were out and had my 24 and 72 with me I might choose either one depending on how close I wanted to capture.

    Re subject movement: It can be a PIA however it can be done with a little planning.

    Not sure if I answered the original question however these are just my first thoughts as I finish my coffee:sleep006:

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    Re: Stitching vs wideangles

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I do a lot of my Pano shots with longer lenses like the Phase 150mm for landscape work. Sometimes in landscapes you just can't get close and more times I find a longer lens the answer to this. One reason I have not gone to a tech camera yet but that maybe my style of shooting also. But my last 3 shot Pano of Lake Powell was the 150 and it's killer sharp corner to corner. Now this is me and my style but my fear is a tech camera will slow my creativity. I like to shoot more freeing feeling. Hard to describe but I am a floater when I shoot
    Guy, interesting, I just felt that using a tech camera and groundglass and all manual slows me down and forces me in a positive way to take more more time for composition, but still all this with an adorable simplicity.

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    Re: Stitching vs wideangles

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I do a lot of my Pano shots with longer lenses like the Phase 150mm for landscape work. Sometimes in landscapes you just can't get close and more times I find a longer lens the answer to this. One reason I have not gone to a tech camera yet but that maybe my style of shooting also. But my last 3 shot Pano of Lake Powell was the 150 and it's killer sharp corner to corner. Now this is me and my style but my fear is a tech camera will slow my creativity. I like to shoot more freeing feeling. Hard to describe but I am a floater when I shoot
    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    Guy, interesting, I just felt that using a tech camera and groundglass and all manual slows me down and forces me in a positive way to take more more time for composition, but still all this with an adorable simplicity.
    Everyone certainly has their own style of shooting which is a good thing if shooting my yourself. Sandy and I have always had different styles; I'm much more deliberate while Sandy is more "free-wheeling" - and that was when we both were shooting 35mm. I slowed down much more after MF and just about stopped now that I'm on a TC. Sandy will have taken several images by the time I have the tripod and camera setup for the first shot.

    Personally I enjoy shooting a TC more each time I use it. You can't be in a hurry. It slows your senses down to the point that you become part of the landscape and you see more.

    I might miss not using longer lenses however the 120mm seems good and it looks like I can go longer.

    As always this has been my 2¢

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    Re: Stitching vs wideangles

    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Creek View Post
    Personally I enjoy shooting a TC more each time I use it. You can't be in a hurry. It slows your senses down to the point that you become part of the landscape and you see more.
    This one of the reasons I might not be well suited for a workshop - I'd slow everyone down to a crawl.

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    Re: Stitching vs wideangles

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    It might influence my future lens choices. For now/ as a start I have decided for a "compromise" lens, the 35HR. It doesnt allow me much stitching/shift, but it has the angle of vieew which I find usefull for many shots.
    Now I was thinking which focal length might be ideal if one wanted to do stitching. a shorter focal length with a large image circle (like the coming 40mm HR or the Schneider 35 XL) or a little longer focal length with an even larger image circle (like th 47 XL, or even something in the 60-100mm range)
    Tom, I think the 35XL as second lens to the 35HR is not really the best option. Sure, the XL offers more movements but likely you are not going to flat stitch all the time and basically you have twice the same focal lens.
    The 47XL is a great option as it offers really hugh image circle. With this lens you can use the full amount of shift the arTec is capable of. In addition you have a different focal lenght to the already existing 35HR.
    Or maybe the 60HR or the Digitar 72. Me personally I'd feel the gap from 35 to 60 or even 72 a bit limiting this is why I would go for the 47XL.
    But I think after some time and some more experince with your arTech and the 35HR you will see what your are missing. I thought about several lenses but infact I never needed something else as the 47XL. Maybe a 28HR ...

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    I have never been a fan of stiching by turning the camera, but with shift/sliding adapter it could be easier/more accurate/better.
    Flat stitching is a bit easier to handle in post once used to it. The big advantage of nodal point stitching is corner sharpness. But you have to shoot much more frames. Me personally I don't like nodal stitching very much but flat stitching seems to meet my style of shooting.

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    Re: Stitching vs wideangles

    The Schneider lenses are not available for the Artec.
    I also did not want to get a non-HR Rodenstock (like the 45 for example) because of the lower resolution), but the HR Rodenstocks with larger image circle are not yet available. I am not in a hurry with the decision since I have pretty much decided on the 35 allready. ( I have a 35 demo right now),
    I see it as the best first lens for me, however this might differ if you think longer term about a 2 or maybe 3 lens set . After some time I will figur out what I need.
    I didnt see the 35 as option for second lens (I probably wrote something which wasnt clear for the reader)

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    Tom, I think the 35XL as second lens to the 35HR is not really the best option. Sure, the XL offers more movements but likely you are not going to flat stitch all the time and basically you have twice the same focal lens.
    The 47XL is a great option as it offers really hugh image circle. With this lens you can use the full amount of shift the arTec is capable of. In addition you have a different focal lenght to the already existing 35HR.
    Or maybe the 60HR or the Digitar 72. Me personally I'd feel the gap from 35 to 60 or even 72 a bit limiting this is why I would go for the 47XL.
    But I think after some time and some more experince with your arTech and the 35HR you will see what your are missing. I thought about several lenses but infact I never needed something else as the 47XL. Maybe a 28HR ...

    Flat stitching is a bit easier to handle in post once used to it. The big advantage of nodal point stitching is corner sharpness. But you have to shoot much more frames. Me personally I don't like nodal stitching very much but flat stitching seems to meet my style of shooting.

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    Re: Stitching vs wideangles

    a 3 x 3 shifting stitch is pretty easy with the Horseman and it's click stops every 5cm. doing a 3 x 3 pano is not so simple unless you have a two axis rig with a degree scale on each axis...i suppose the cube owners can chuckle here.

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    Re: Stitching vs wideangles

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    The Schneider lenses are not available for the Artec
    WHAT??? All plans regarding a possible swap in the future are cancelled right now and forever. Sinar is a footnote of the market and offers a camera only for Sinar and V mount and exclusively for the Rodenstock lenses (without any reason but narrow-mindedness).
    They are so studip, I really don't get it. Heck, what a company!

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    I didnt see the 35 as option for second lens (I probably wrote something which wasnt clear for the reader)
    ah, okay

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    Re: Stitching vs wideangles

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    WHAT??? All plans regarding a possible swap in the future are cancelled right now and forever. Sinar is a footnote of the market and offers a camera only for Sinar and V mount and exclusively for the Rodenstock lenses (without any reason but narrow-mindedness).
    They are so studip, I really don't get it. Heck, what a company!
    I hope I didnt say something wrong and I dont know what they plan in the future but thats seems the situation right now.
    Not so much a problem for me but I totally agree it would be nicer if they offered both options.

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    Re: Stitching vs wideangles

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    I hope I didnt say something wrong and I dont know what they plan in the future but thats seems the situation right now.
    Not so much a problem for me but I totally agree it would be nicer if they offered both options.
    hmh, apparently you are right: http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/...dpost&p=208480
    insane

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    Re: Stitching vs wideangles

    A few other reasons:

    1. Sometimes you don't have the lens you need for the scene you want. Stitching gives you a lot of flexibility without the quality loss of a zoom lens.

    2. With stitching you can go wider without the WA distortion of switching to wider glass.

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    Re: Stitching vs wideangles

    Here's an example with Digitar 47XL (@ f11) and P45 on Cambo WRS at 20mm shift.

    The movements the WRS is capable of:


    Scene.
    Red frame is the film plane of the P45. Right side is 20mm shift:


    Crop center (lens wise):


    And here's an 100% crop. On the top of the image I indicated the amount of shift in mm.
    JPEG quality 80% but I think it's good enough.
    Should also be viewed in print size (@ 300dpi).
    http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/show...s&cutoffdate=1

    A plane motif would have been better to show sharpness fall off but as an exapmle this should be fine.
    Last edited by thomas; 5th July 2009 at 14:05.

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    Re: Stitching vs wideangles

    I don't completely understand the math of shifting yet. What is the effective focal length of the 47mm shifted and stitched to its limits?
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Stitching vs wideangles

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    I don't completely understand the math of shifting yet. What is the effective focal length of the 47mm shifted and stitched to its limits?
    Carsten,

    the film plane of the P45 is 49.1 x 36.8mm.
    If you stitch to the limits lateral you add 20mm on each side so the film plane is 89.1 mm wide.
    If you go for a 3:4 format it's 89.1 x 66.8mm and the diagonal is 111.4mm.
    So the coefficient is 0.55. The 47mm will be like a 26mm.
    If you go for 2:3; 47mm ~ 27mm.
    If you go for the full film plane with shift to the limits lateral and vertical the film plane is 89.1 x 76.8mm; 47mm ~ 24.5mm.

    edit:
    but of course you have to consider sharpness fall off (that's what my test shot is about).
    I feel totally safe within +/- 12mm [so the film plane is 49.1mm + 12mm(left) + 12mm(right) = 63.1mm wide here].
    +/- 17mm is still good enough for the most purposes.
    +/- 20mm is a bit too soft but usable for some purposes (depends very much on the motif as well).
    The vertical -25mm is only usable if there is sky in the respective area of the image... (sky is very forgiving if it is not sharp...)
    Last edited by thomas; 5th July 2009 at 15:14.

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    Re: Stitching vs wideangles

    Interesting! Thanks for working through this. It seems that for someone shooting static subjects, the 47 might even be preferable, as long as I am not adverse to extra work.
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    Re: Stitching vs wideangles

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Interesting! Thanks for working through this.
    you're welcome!

    It seems that for someone shooting static subjects, the 47 might even be preferable, as long as I am not adverse to extra work.
    it is extra work of course! But don't forget that at the same time you add a remarkable increase of resolution as well!
    When you did it a few times and have a sophiticated workflow you get used to it and actually if you appreciate the quality of each of your images it's worth the effort.
    Exposure is tricky. I expose for the shifted capture, not for the center shot. If you push the shifted shots in post to correct light fall off you basically end up with ISO 150 (or what) at the edges (light fall of at full shift is 1.7EV at the edges) - not good with the P45! On the other hand highlight recovery in Cature One works so brilliant that some overexoposed highlights in the center shot are mostly not a problem. Best is to shoot exposure variants but it's not always possible to merge them afterwards.... you have to decide it during the shot. Or just do exposure variants all the time and look what works best in post.
    Oh, yes, I have a center filter as well but the color cast is sheer maddening - the center filter adds lens cast to the sensor cast and you just can't get it right therefore.

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    Re: Stitching vs wideangles

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    a 3 x 3 shifting stitch is pretty easy with the Horseman and it's click stops every 5cm. doing a 3 x 3 pano is not so simple unless you have a two axis rig with a degree scale on each axis...i suppose the cube owners can chuckle here.
    Here a 3x3 stitched image .
    Camera is ARCA SWISS 6x9 + APO-SIRONAR DIGITAL 4,5/35mm.
    Shift is done in 10mm steps both axis .
    The first image shows the "base image" , shot from center position , and is what you would get , when you would not use the stitching technique .

    Attachment 19045

    Attachment 19046

    Jürgen

    What I do not understand yet , is the cyan cast in the left part of the sky and the deep dark blue in the right part .

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    Re: Stitching vs wideangles

    Quote Originally Posted by jotloob View Post
    What I do not understand yet , is the cyan cast in the left part of the sky and the deep dark blue in the right part .
    Magenta cast center/right hand as well.
    The colour cast calibration is off here I think.
    Or did you use a center filter?

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    Re: Stitching vs wideangles

    Thomas

    Color Cast Calibration ? ? ? Please give more details .
    NO centerfilter was used .

    Jürgen

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    Re: Stitching vs wideangles

    Quote Originally Posted by jotloob View Post
    Color Cast Calibration ? ? ? Please give more details .
    Jürgen,

    "lens cast calibration" or "white shading" or "white reference" or however named in your raw software.
    Mostly you shoot a white opal plate for every position of the lens/back.
    Don't you?
    Here's the workflow for Phase backs in Capture One - http://www.phaseone.com/upload/4_sim...es_windows.pdf - there must be something similar in your software as the procedure is basically the same with all tech cameras/LF lenses.

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    Re: Stitching vs wideangles

    Thomas

    Thank you for pointing out "Lens Cast Calibration" .
    I did not know anything about that topic , because up to now , I did not do any stitching with super wide angle lenses .
    That on the other side means , learning again and find the process for PHOCUS , the HASSELBLAD software .
    I will then come back , with a hopefully better result .

    Jürgen

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    Re: Stitching vs wideangles

    Quote Originally Posted by jotloob View Post
    Thank you for pointing out "Lens Cast Calibration" .
    I did not know anything about that topic, because up to now , I did not do any stitching with super wide angle lenses.
    you'll see that even without movements there is colour cast... not that obvious but still.

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    Re: Stitching vs wideangles

    Now , for a better understanding .
    Assume , I want to do a 3x3 (3x2 , 3x1) stitched image using a particular lens .
    It is brilliant sunshine .
    My understanding so far is , that I take a custom white shot and a real shot of every stitching position . Then I process these with PHOCUS and I keep the custom white shots for future use with the same lens for similar light situations .
    (their positions noted down , of course) .

    Do I have to follow that procedure for an image I will take when it is cloudy or any other light condition ? ? ?

    What is the information from that custom white shot to be "combined" with the real shot in the raw converter . In my case PHOCUS .

    And yes , I do agree , there is a color cast , even when shooting just out of a center position with a SWC , for example .

    Jürgen

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    Re: Stitching vs wideangles

    Unless you take a purely neutral white shading file, I am not sure that you will be able to reuse it. If you get a neutral one done, then it would correct the general tendency for the lens at that shift position, but any casts in the scene would be uncorrected.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Stitching vs wideangles

    Carsten

    You express what I thought it would be .
    To be correct , for any image you want to shoot , using stitching techniques , you will have to take a custom white shot for every shift position .
    And if you want to shoot an other image next day , you will have to do the same again .
    Is that what you mean ? ? ?
    It would make sense to me as the light conditions vary a lot .
    Daylight is not daylight . There might be slight differences .
    I found this by using my SEKONIC C-500 prodigi color meter .

    Jürgen

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    Re: Stitching vs wideangles

    There's certainly different schools of thought about taking LCCs. One school says you have to take one for every exposure while the other describes having a "library" of the various movements.

    I subscribe to the library method. The first thing I do with a new lens is shoot a complete library of movements beginning at zero-zero and working my way in 5mm increments. When finished I load them in C1 and go from there.

    The only time I bother shooting a LCC is is I do something out of the ordinary like tilting the camera (level on the horizontal but tilted upwards or down).

    The library has worked well for me.


    Don

    I also normally take detailed noted on what I shoot with each image using a voice recorder. Frame #, f/stop and movements.
    Don Libby
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    Re: Stitching vs wideangles

    "Colour cast" we are talking about here is actually "sensor cast". Therefore a library of LCCs should work. However I find the correction is more accurate if I do the LCCs for each capture in the particular light situation.
    Too, I rarely shoot with the film plane shifted to maximum. Mostly I do two shots with the back turned 90° in portrait mode and shift left/right 17mm... but rise and/or fall varies with the motif. In addition it's handy to have the LCC shots right within the session as I process them as well as TIFs to use them for correction of vignetting afterwards in Photoshop (could take them from a library as well of course... but this way it's a bit faster).
    So I'm on the "every exposure" side...

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    Re: Stitching vs wideangles

    a four shot pano, rollei 110, also a test of a 1200pix wide attachment

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    Re: Stitching vs wideangles

    Beautifully done John, as always

    Must be nice to walk out the door of your workplace for lunch and have these images to work for. Love it LOL

    Best

    Woody

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    Re: Stitching vs wideangles

    i see those cranes every morning when i go to work and have tried to shoot them many times. tough with all the background, plus they are huge and move around. i need to keep at those buggers

    thanks woody

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    Re: Stitching vs wideangles

    test load of a 1200h by 2300w jpg

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    Re: Stitching vs wideangles

    Here my latest 2x3 stitch . No LCC done .
    I do hope you like it .
    Attachment 19276

    Jürgen

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    Re: Stitching vs wideangles

    I see yellow cast, bottom left!

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