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dwdmguy
Guest
This kind of stinks for all the AFi owners/ lovers.
http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=864695
http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=864695
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carstenw
Active member
This link has been around for a few days now, with various discussions taking place. The final word will be the court decision due at the end of July. Until then, there is still too much rumour and too little fact. The AFi/Hy6 production may still be picked up by someone else, as the production equipment was leased, and the rights belong to Jenoptik, not Franke&Heidecke. Let's wait and see.
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dwdmguy
Guest
I'm sorry, I did not see the links. This just came across on the BJP news wire and did not know they confirmed it before. Again, sorry.
Graham Mitchell
New member
Might be nice to edit the thread title, as it is quite misleading!
As Carsten pointed out, it is up to Sinar, Jenoptik, and maybe even other players such as Phase, Kodak, Dalsa or Schneider to make their move.
Phase must realize that putting the P65+ on the Hy6 with a rotating adapter, leaf shutter lenses, Schneider glass and WLF option would really compete with the Hasselblad H. Rather than reinventing a whole line of leaf shutter lenses for the M645, they could join a proven system. It's such an obvious move.
As Carsten pointed out, it is up to Sinar, Jenoptik, and maybe even other players such as Phase, Kodak, Dalsa or Schneider to make their move.
Phase must realize that putting the P65+ on the Hy6 with a rotating adapter, leaf shutter lenses, Schneider glass and WLF option would really compete with the Hasselblad H. Rather than reinventing a whole line of leaf shutter lenses for the M645, they could join a proven system. It's such an obvious move.
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dwdmguy
Guest
I don't understand how the following is misleading at all:
However, in an exclusive interview with BJP, Henrik O Hakonsson, president and CEO at Phase One said that the new partnership could spell the end of the AFi system. 'The Leaf AFi is a camera system that is currently on hold,' he tells BJP. 'We have to determine if it is commercially viable and we are still not convinced by it. The new company - Leaf Imaging Ltd - has the rights for the Leaf AFi but we are not going to produce it.'
However, in an exclusive interview with BJP, Henrik O Hakonsson, president and CEO at Phase One said that the new partnership could spell the end of the AFi system. 'The Leaf AFi is a camera system that is currently on hold,' he tells BJP. 'We have to determine if it is commercially viable and we are still not convinced by it. The new company - Leaf Imaging Ltd - has the rights for the Leaf AFi but we are not going to produce it.'
Graham Mitchell
New member
"could spell the end" is not the same as "dead".
it only says that the leaf afi is on hold right now.
It doesnt say anything about other brands like Sinar which also do use the Hy6, and it doesnt say anything what phase will decide in a longer term. (Who knows what would happen if a square 6x6 sensor comes to the market one day.)
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dwdmguy
Guest
Well, I have to say, I am a Leaf owner. First a demo which I had to return and then a purchase. I don't like this either. But to me, and perhaps because I've been in business so long the following quote could not be clearer. I know that we do not like this one bit, I know I wish someone would pick this up and "Produce" it but, again, to me, the writing is one the wall and it's clear.
I have to say, I AM NOT wanting to start a flame here, again, I don't like it one bit. It's an amazing technology. I think the value is awesome but this is very clear to me. I ca't wish it away:
I don't know if the BJP released this exact press prior or this is new:
"The new company - Leaf Imaging Ltd - has the rights for the Leaf AFi but we are not going to produce it.' "
I have to say, I AM NOT wanting to start a flame here, again, I don't like it one bit. It's an amazing technology. I think the value is awesome but this is very clear to me. I ca't wish it away:
I don't know if the BJP released this exact press prior or this is new:
"The new company - Leaf Imaging Ltd - has the rights for the Leaf AFi but we are not going to produce it.' "
stephengilbert
Active member
I have no dog in this fight, but it seems to me that Hakonsson's statement that "we're not going to produce it" means just that. They have the right to produce the camera but have chosen not to. Graham is right that they could produce it, but it seems like they won't, unless there is some change.
Obviously if there were a groundswell of interest, with people clamoring for the camera, they could change course, but isn't the absence of such demand what got the AFI to where it is now?
Obviously if there were a groundswell of interest, with people clamoring for the camera, they could change course, but isn't the absence of such demand what got the AFI to where it is now?
carstenw
Active member
"We are not going to produce it" could also just be a smoke screen. If he has no intention to produce it, I would guess that he didn't actually pay for the rights to do so. That would just make no sense. His statement about having the rights to the camera probably just mean that he can buy it if he wants to, not necessarily that he has already bought it.
The AFi/Hy6 rights of ownership and prodution belong with Jenoptik. Leaf has access rights to the platform, but they took delivery from F&H, they didn't make them themselves. When Jenoptik makes a statement about the AFi/Hy6, it means something. When Håkonsson makes a statement about products other than his own backs, it is only politics.
I am guessing that he offered a low price for rights to the AFi, possibly tried to get exclusive rights (locking out Sinar), and was rejected, and is now using public announcements to drive the behind-the-scenes price down.
This is all conjecture, however, apart from the rights to the camera lying with Jenoptik.
Stephen, there have been statements to the effect that the Hy6 was quite popular, with production numbers being very good. The problems lie elsewhere, unless those statements weren't true...
The AFi/Hy6 rights of ownership and prodution belong with Jenoptik. Leaf has access rights to the platform, but they took delivery from F&H, they didn't make them themselves. When Jenoptik makes a statement about the AFi/Hy6, it means something. When Håkonsson makes a statement about products other than his own backs, it is only politics.
I am guessing that he offered a low price for rights to the AFi, possibly tried to get exclusive rights (locking out Sinar), and was rejected, and is now using public announcements to drive the behind-the-scenes price down.
This is all conjecture, however, apart from the rights to the camera lying with Jenoptik.
Stephen, there have been statements to the effect that the Hy6 was quite popular, with production numbers being very good. The problems lie elsewhere, unless those statements weren't true...
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
As I see it who would want to take the risk to produce it. To some degree the HY6 serves really no purpose at this point and Phase may just start from the ground up on a completely new body which actually makes more sense at this point since it can serve more backs. Sinar back owners can just switch adapter plates to a new camera and current Leaf owners could have a new adapter for something new. Not knowing all the facts of Contax but also knowing for it's time was the best thing out there no one went to pick up that body either but still viable for some shooters. Just from standing outside the door I see no value for Phase to make this camera for a select group but build a new one that just serves almost everyone. I know there is a lot of passion for this body and understand some of it from a users POV but from a manufacturing POV not sure it makes any sense for Phase to pick it up again. It really only serves there competition Sinar at this point and for Leaf owners there may have to be a hard change for them. We have to realize Phase bought them and could do whatever they want at any given time and actually a little surprised on how they actually want to maintain Leaf. They could have kept the employees and the intellectual properties and just canned everything else and forced there hand to buy Phase products. Something they did not do at least at this time. If i was Phase i would invest in a new body all together and get the most mileage from that instead of continuing a product that only serves part of there company. Just some random thoughts but I think we need to put our feet in Phases shoes and make some logical sense of what is best for Phase One the company.
Than again maybe i don't understand all this rights and ownership stuff either and i have not really paid much attention to it. I just don't see the HY6 all that popular and if it was it would not be here in this position.
Than again maybe i don't understand all this rights and ownership stuff either and i have not really paid much attention to it. I just don't see the HY6 all that popular and if it was it would not be here in this position.
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Posted Today
Latest from British Journal Of Photography
Title: Franke & Heidecke to close
Feature: Daily News
Date: 4 July 2009
The German manufacturer responsible for 6x6 format camera bodies for both Leaf and Sinar is to close, BJP can confirm. The firm broke the news to its 131 employees earlier this week. The closure could dramatically affect the medium format camera market, days after Phase One announced it would buy Leaf's assets
Franke & Heidecke owns and develops new products for the legendary Rolleiflex twin-lens camera system, but it also produces a 6x6 format camera body for both Leaf and Sinar, named the AFi and the Hy6 respectively. Last March, it announced that it was going into insolvency, saying it couldn't pay its bills.
BJP can now confirm that Franke & Heidecke will close its operations before September 2009. In the meantime, servicing and back orders will continue to be fulfilled, according to press reports in Germany.
Leaf and Sinar didn't return call and email queries as this article was published, however it is understood that Sinar still has significant stocks of its Hy6 system and shouldn't be affected, in the short term, by the closure.
As for Leaf, last week Phase One announced it was to form a new company, Leaf Imaging Ltd, which would purchase Leaf's assets and enter into an intellectual property licence with Eastman Kodak Company.
However, in an exclusive interview with BJP, Henrik O Hakonsson, president and CEO at Phase One said that the new partnership could spell the end of the AFi system. 'The Leaf AFi is a camera system that is currently on hold,' he tells BJP. 'We have to determine if it is commercially viable and we are still not convinced by it. The new company - Leaf Imaging Ltd - has the rights for the Leaf AFi but we are not going to produce it.'
Franke & Heideke's closure could quicken Leaf's AFi death, unless Phase One decides to produce and support the system on its own.
The full effect of Franke & Heidecke's demise has yet to be felt as it could force another wave of consolidation in the medium format camera market. Check back on bjp-online.com/news for regular updates.
Latest from British Journal Of Photography
Title: Franke & Heidecke to close
Feature: Daily News
Date: 4 July 2009
The German manufacturer responsible for 6x6 format camera bodies for both Leaf and Sinar is to close, BJP can confirm. The firm broke the news to its 131 employees earlier this week. The closure could dramatically affect the medium format camera market, days after Phase One announced it would buy Leaf's assets
Franke & Heidecke owns and develops new products for the legendary Rolleiflex twin-lens camera system, but it also produces a 6x6 format camera body for both Leaf and Sinar, named the AFi and the Hy6 respectively. Last March, it announced that it was going into insolvency, saying it couldn't pay its bills.
BJP can now confirm that Franke & Heidecke will close its operations before September 2009. In the meantime, servicing and back orders will continue to be fulfilled, according to press reports in Germany.
Leaf and Sinar didn't return call and email queries as this article was published, however it is understood that Sinar still has significant stocks of its Hy6 system and shouldn't be affected, in the short term, by the closure.
As for Leaf, last week Phase One announced it was to form a new company, Leaf Imaging Ltd, which would purchase Leaf's assets and enter into an intellectual property licence with Eastman Kodak Company.
However, in an exclusive interview with BJP, Henrik O Hakonsson, president and CEO at Phase One said that the new partnership could spell the end of the AFi system. 'The Leaf AFi is a camera system that is currently on hold,' he tells BJP. 'We have to determine if it is commercially viable and we are still not convinced by it. The new company - Leaf Imaging Ltd - has the rights for the Leaf AFi but we are not going to produce it.'
Franke & Heideke's closure could quicken Leaf's AFi death, unless Phase One decides to produce and support the system on its own.
The full effect of Franke & Heidecke's demise has yet to be felt as it could force another wave of consolidation in the medium format camera market. Check back on bjp-online.com/news for regular updates.
carstenw
Active member
I don't know how the math of the production numbers works out, but I could see it being interesting for Phase to have both a new, improved AFD body, being the sports model (in the sense of streamlined and light, not 10 fps), as well as the AFi for the studio, being the tractor (leaf shutter lenses, rotatable backs, waist-level finder, etc.). It would also help differentiate Phase products from Hasselblad's, while attacking them on their home turf (leaf shutter lenses). Maybe it is too expensive in reality, but as a sofa argument it makes sense.
I guess phase wants to continue with their mamiya 645 lens line, and therefore I agree it does not make much sense for phase/Leaf to produce a body which doesnt support their lenses and is focused on a larger image circle than the phase lenses can provide.
Now for other companies like Zeiss, Schneider, Sinar it could make sense to continue the hy6 system with the Hy6 body and the Schneider and Zeiss lenses in Rollei mount. If sensor get bigger they could take advantage of Hy6-lenses larger image circle.
Anyways, all speculation - I will wait for facts.
Now for other companies like Zeiss, Schneider, Sinar it could make sense to continue the hy6 system with the Hy6 body and the Schneider and Zeiss lenses in Rollei mount. If sensor get bigger they could take advantage of Hy6-lenses larger image circle.
Anyways, all speculation - I will wait for facts.
Graham Mitchell
New member
This seems to be a common misconception. The Hy6 itself was successful and apparently F&H even expanded the workforce on that production line to keep up with demand.
F&H's problems arose from the burden of a large and old debt (which pre-dated the Hy6), and this was stated in an earlier press release.
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
It does make sense but than again maybe some heavy costs producing two . I guess Phase would really have survey the market to see if it would be viable. Just reading the above quotes, I don't think I would bet any money on the HY6 being produced from Phase. If we look at the market in total today there really only 3 bodies being made, Hassy, Phase and the Hy6/AFI. Now it may make a lot of dollar sense for Phase/Mamiya to produce a really great body to handle almost all the backs out there and get a major share of that market alone. Than also do some packaging with Leaf and Phase backs in different flavors. The question remains how ultimately will this affect Sinar even though backed heavily by Jenoptik which has a ton of money, they could easily just call it quits on it if there not selling. In the US Sinar is not nearly as popular than the international scene. We all don't know the true sales numbers but these companies do look at regions on there product lines. The US rental houses are heavily Hassy and Phase.
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Bottom line no matter how we slice the pie it is just not that great for the end users in many ways it just limits our buying power. Anyone on the edge these days does not look like survival is a guarantee. I may not like the Hy6 from a personal POV but I would rather see it survive than fail. Just not good things being sucked up and sold off all the time. Makes a large purchase a risk, one reason I did not go into MF for awhile there.
Graham Mitchell
New member
That makes no sense to me. How could it be less trouble to develop a new body, and new interface (which would initially be compatible with no backs whatsoever), and develop a whole line of leaf shutter lenses, and have no used market to make the price of entry to the system cheaper, rather than just adding the Hy6 mount to the choice of mounts Phase already offers?
And I'm not sure what you mean by the Hy6 'serving no purpose'
Its purpose is to take photos and it does so with some of the finest optics available, it offers metering with the WLF and other finder options, it offers a rotating back, AF, the fastest leaf shutter lenses (and therefore fastest flash sync) of any camera, and more. Overall it is probably the most advanced medium format body on the market.Graham Mitchell
New member
How about this as one of many possible scenarios? Sinar backs out of the digital back business and forms a partnership with Phase - Phase makes the backs, and Sinar produces the Hy6 and arTec. That would not be such a surprising outcome.
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Phase has no interest in the Rollie glass they want sell there own, so for them it is not a camera worth building. Graham your thinking of yourself which is fine but we need to put ourselves in Phase shoes deciding if the HY6 is a viable option for them to gain market share, you can't do that if you can't sell your lenses and your backs. Bottom line they make money from selling backs and lenses and whatever they build it will be geared to that end, not to use anyone else's glass and they own Leaf now, they can easily switch the mount to whatever camera platform they want along with there Phase backs and that would most likely be a Mamiya mount which serves all there current user base. Making lenses is something they are doing anyway and will stay with a mount of there own which is the Mamiya mount. To them it is NOT a viable asset to make the Hy6. It maybe cheaper to take all the current users of Leaf and the AFI mount and make a adapter for those wanting to switch to a Mamiya mount and do it at cost.