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Thread: The Shake Up: SINAR

  1. #51
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    Re: The Shake Up: SINAR

    hahahah Guy - well as you might remember I tested an early body down here, with a Schneider auto focus 80mm and the Sinar 75 back - and had a bit of a running argument with Thierry a couple of years ago over the issue...

    OK no BS - why am I upset at prospect of Sinar being collateral damage and going out of business?

    Well after shooting with the Sinar back/Hy6 and 5 Schnieder and Zeiss Rollie mount lenses ( a few months now) - all I can say is that this glass 'draws' better than any other MF glass I have ever used. In focus POPS and OOF is smooth like butter my acid test - rendering green foliage background - teh rollie glass rules better than anything - even Lieca in this test...- the Rollie mount Zeiss 110 I actually prefer to the Hasselblad mount version in F/FE form ( I own both) teh 180 2.8 - a dream lens..the 40mm? - most under rated wide out there

    The Sinar 75LV r back - the cleanest pure files I have ever worked with - no dicky prepackaged precanned look you get from other makers ( which you have to spend time eliminating before starting afresh) For sure you have to know how to use the back and software..rotating back? I never thought I would use it - how stupid was I!! it is a fantastic feature..

    I use the Sinar back on Hy6/Contax/RZ/Hasselblad V - via a simple mount change system - it is the most user friendly digi/film thing out there..

    Wanna shoot landscapes with corrected perspective with near and far in focus - with the best glass money can buy? stuff that shames MF lenses for contrast/resolution - the arTec..

    I could go on and on...thats why I don't want this company to go down..we would all be poorer and have far less options..thats why I am grumpy lately..not teh paper devaluations ( who cares) but I just hate the thought of Sinar going down...

    So of course lets use what we own and enjoy being alive!

    PS - if you ever get down here - i will let you drive my big boy..it has auto drive feature for you city slickers -

    Cheers
    Pete

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    Re: The Shake Up: SINAR

    hi friends,

    I do agree we you Pete, it would be a great lost for the photography community if Sinar would fold. I may say that it won't happen since they are Swiss, as my ex partner explain to me. Folding is a major failure for the Swiss and not seen very well by the Swiss peoples. Compare to here in North America.

    Later All, Michel

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    Re: The Shake Up: SINAR

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    hahahah Guy - well as you might remember I tested an early body down here, with a Schneider auto focus 80mm and the Sinar 75 back - and had a bit of a running argument with Thierry a couple of years ago over the issue...

    OK no BS - why am I upset at prospect of Sinar being collateral damage and going out of business?

    Well after shooting with the Sinar back/Hy6 and 5 Schnieder and Zeiss Rollie mount lenses ( a few months now) - all I can say is that this glass 'draws' better than any other MF glass I have ever used. In focus POPS and OOF is smooth like butter my acid test - rendering green foliage background - teh rollie glass rules better than anything - even Lieca in this test...- the Rollie mount Zeiss 110 I actually prefer to the Hasselblad mount version in F/FE form ( I own both) teh 180 2.8 - a dream lens..the 40mm? - most under rated wide out there

    The Sinar 75LV r back - the cleanest pure files I have ever worked with - no dicky prepackaged precanned look you get from other makers ( which you have to spend time eliminating before starting afresh) For sure you have to know how to use the back and software..rotating back? I never thought I would use it - how stupid was I!! it is a fantastic feature..

    I use the Sinar back on Hy6/Contax/RZ/Hasselblad V - via a simple mount change system - it is the most user friendly digi/film thing out there..

    Wanna shoot landscapes with corrected perspective with near and far in focus - with the best glass money can buy? stuff that shames MF lenses for contrast/resolution - the arTec..

    I could go on and on...thats why I don't want this company to go down..we would all be poorer and have far less options..thats why I am grumpy lately..not teh paper devaluations ( who cares) but I just hate the thought of Sinar going down...

    So of course lets use what we own and enjoy being alive!

    PS - if you ever get down here - i will let you drive my big boy..it has auto drive feature for you city slickers -

    Cheers
    Pete
    Damn, Peter, if I didn't already have this kit I'd go out and buy it

  4. #54
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    Re: The Shake Up: SINAR

    Quote Originally Posted by MMPhoto View Post
    I do agree we you Pete, it would be a great lost for the photography community if Sinar would fold. I may say that it won't happen since they are Swiss, as my ex partner explain to me. Folding is a major failure for the Swiss and not seen very well by the Swiss peoples. Compare to here in North America.
    Somewhere Ayn Rand just rolled in her grave.

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    Re: The Shake Up: SINAR

    Peter waxes poetic on the gentle and gorgeous tendering of the Schneider lenses. As the one who sold the Hy6 kit to him I am mostly inclined to agree.

    I think the Schneider Super-Angulon 40mm PQ is a match for any medium format retrofocus wide angle on the market, even the Zeiss CFE 40/4 IF. They give somewhat different results, but each has its strengths, and the Schmeider's is certianly in it's rendering and bokeh.

    But not all the lenses were stellar-- IMHO, the 80/2 was one of the weaker optics, even stopped down.

    When I hear about the 110/2 drawing so much
    more nicely than the Zeiss, I believe it may be that the Sinar back/software is imparting a look. I'd need to see the same scene shot on the same back with the two different lenses to be sure (something I did not get a chance to do).

    As for the Sinar back, it was the weak point of the system for me. I did find myself fighting the back often for image review, CF card storage in the field and changing white balance. Most painful though, was the workflow involved in getting the files the back generates into a useable raw file format. I found wild variations in the greens/yellows that were difficult to fix, depending on whether I'd used eXposure or Brumbaer to create DNGs.

    With some more time to mature the software and hardware and a rev of the back I do think the Hy6 would have been one of the most compelling systems in MF photography.

    -Brad

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    Re: The Shake Up: SINAR

    I think commentary on software is even more qualitative and subjective in nature than descriptions about lenses and camera bodies. For me Exposure is missing only a couple of features that I can do without. The actual raw processing and DNG file delivery is elegant and easy. However what is very important to me is the fact that Sinar software produces the best correction for pink magenta caste when I use it on the Alpa and hopefully the arTec in due course. Colours are the most natural and most easilly white balanced corrected from backs I own and use - including Phase One/H3D11-39 and ( my favourit CFV11)

    I agree that the Sinar back menu system is at the margin clunkier than Hasselblad's and Phase One backs. Again - no biggy. As for the 80 - I dont use that focal length much. I also agree that capture One and Phocuys are very much more full featured - however again - I dont need most of the features.

    Happy to wax poetic about lens drawing - because that is the type of photograph I like to make - more painterly than not. To be perfectly frank - I woudl use an arTec or an Alpa for landscape work - as I prefer wide angle near and far captures and nodal point panoramas - rather than flat stitches so the Hy6 doesnt get much workout here.

    Every system has its strengths and weaknesses - but the Schneiders were a revelation to me. My hasselblad H system and lenses is till the benchmark for the best DSLR MFD overall experience - there is no doubt about in my mind.

    If a person needs 40/50/60 megapixels Sinar doesnt make these megapixels so that pretty much chops out teh latest and greatest market. Again - I am happy to stop @ 40 megapixels as i prefer larer rather than smaller pixel pitches. Why? Because ew have hit the practicla limits of lens resolving ability in real world use - simple as that.

    Anyway lets see what happens with Sinar. Cheers and happy shooting everyone - I am packing for a 2 week sailing holiday in teh Mediterannean - cant make up mind between my M8 gear and just an Alpa with one lens.

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    Re: The Shake Up: SINAR

    The software issues I raise are actually quite measureable. You can measure the yellow/green problem quite easily with a Gretag MacBeth chart. As for the batch DNG conversion headaches, the application would crash if more than ~100 items were queued at once.

    I'm not here to beat up on Sinar or eXposure. All of the issues I've raised are fixable (and many may have been in the months since I've left the Sinar family). In fact, Sinar provided me with hands down the best customer service and support while I owned the camera that I've received since coming to medium format. Exceptional, really. But I just wanted folks to understand that my Hy6 experience, although good, wasn't quite as rosy.

    A little more time and maturity could have made the difference.

    I'm jealous--your holiday sounds awesome!

    Take care,
    -Brad

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    Re: The Shake Up: SINAR

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    I think commentary on software is even more qualitative and subjective in nature than descriptions about lenses and camera bodies. For me Exposure is missing only a couple of features that I can do without. The actual raw processing and DNG file delivery is elegant and easy. However what is very important to me is the fact that Sinar software produces the best correction for pink magenta caste when I use it on the Alpa and hopefully the arTec in due course. Colours are the most natural and most easilly white balanced corrected from backs I own and use - including Phase One/H3D11-39 and ( my favourit CFV11)

    I agree that the Sinar back menu system is at the margin clunkier than Hasselblad's and Phase One backs. Again - no biggy. As for the 80 - I dont use that focal length much. I also agree that capture One and Phocuys are very much more full featured - however again - I dont need most of the features.

    Happy to wax poetic about lens drawing - because that is the type of photograph I like to make - more painterly than not. To be perfectly frank - I woudl use an arTec or an Alpa for landscape work - as I prefer wide angle near and far captures and nodal point panoramas - rather than flat stitches so the Hy6 doesnt get much workout here.

    Every system has its strengths and weaknesses - but the Schneiders were a revelation to me. My hasselblad H system and lenses is till the benchmark for the best DSLR MFD overall experience - there is no doubt about in my mind.

    If a person needs 40/50/60 megapixels Sinar doesnt make these megapixels so that pretty much chops out teh latest and greatest market. Again - I am happy to stop @ 40 megapixels as i prefer larer rather than smaller pixel pitches. Why? Because ew have hit the practicla limits of lens resolving ability in real world use - simple as that.

    Anyway lets see what happens with Sinar. Cheers and happy shooting everyone - I am packing for a 2 week sailing holiday in teh Mediterannean - cant make up mind between my M8 gear and just an Alpa with one lens.
    The M8 ...

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    Re: The Shake Up: SINAR

    Quote Originally Posted by BradleyGibson View Post
    The software issues I raise are actually quite measureable. You can measure the yellow/green problem quite easily with a Gretag MacBeth chart. As for the batch DNG conversion headaches, the application would crash if more than ~100 items were queued at once.

    I'm not here to beat up on Sinar or eXposure. All of the issues I've raised are fixable (and many may have been in the months since I've left the Sinar family). In fact, Sinar provided me with hands down the best customer service and support while I owned the camera that I've received since coming to medium format. Exceptional, really. But I just wanted folks to understand that my Hy6 experience, although good, wasn't quite as rosy.

    A little more time and maturity could have made the difference.

    I'm jealous--your holiday sounds awesome!

    Take care,
    -Brad
    Brad,
    from your measuring, which software seemed more correct?

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    Re: The Shake Up: SINAR

    Definitely eXposure, but remember these were DNG conversions. So Adobe Lightroom (not exactly known for its out-of-the-box color capability) did the demosaicing.

    Whoever was messing up the color (and I honestly don't know who's issue it was), the color correction required was non-trivial.

    But even the colors from eXposure in the green-yellow area were not right; while adjusting the color wasn't hard (just time-consuming), the whole 'unfinished file' from the back was really the problem. It was incredibly time-consuming to deal with large numbers of images (due to crashes), multiple folders (since only one can be selected at a time).

    The post-shoot workflow was one of my top issues with the platform--it was certainly doable, but could have been so much less time-consuming--that is what frustrated me, personally.

    The good news is that this issue (software) was very fixable, and subsequent backs like the eSprit 65 were beginning to deliver finished .DNGs. This is why I say that a bit more time to mature would have really helped the platform.

    -Brad

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    Re: The Shake Up: SINAR

    Quote Originally Posted by BradleyGibson View Post
    Definitely eXposure, but remember these were DNG conversions. So Adobe Lightroom (not exactly known for its out-of-the-box color capability) did the demosaicing.

    Whoever was messing up the color (and I honestly don't know who's issue it was), the color correction required was non-trivial.

    But even the colors from eXposure in the green-yellow area were not right; while adjusting the color wasn't hard (just time-consuming), the whole 'unfinished file' from the back was really the problem. It was incredibly time-consuming to deal with large numbers of images (due to crashes), multiple folders (since only one can be selected at a time).

    The post-shoot workflow was one of my top issues with the platform--it was certainly doable, but could have been so much less time-consuming--that is what frustrated me, personally.

    The good news is that this issue (software) was very fixable, and subsequent backs like the eSprit 65 were beginning to deliver finished .DNGs. This is why I say that a bit more time to mature would have really helped the platform.

    -Brad
    Brad,
    I asked since I only have used exposure and not Brumbär and havent felt a problem in the green/yellow area - but I have not done any comparisons /measurements with color charts-just say what I see/like.

    I also found that the best thing is to use exposure not only for converting the raw files to dng but also for converting the dng to tif/jpg. I tried c1 and adobe but at least the standard dng profiles provide by those didnt work that great for me, plus some moire-problems appeared.

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    Re: The Shake Up: SINAR

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    plus some moire-problems appeared.
    is there an auto correction for moire in eXposure? can you diasable it if you'd like to?

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    Re: The Shake Up: SINAR

    The software team has been promising a moire tool in future versions, along with other things, but I wonder if there is some low level 'automatic' moire reduction going on. I have very rarely seen moire with my eMotion 75 when processing with eXposure.

    Ben

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    Re: The Shake Up: SINAR

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    is there an auto correction for moire in eXposure? can you diasable it if you'd like to?
    frankly I dont know - I dont see any softening or anything bad goin on but some (neg) effects which appear in c1 or adobe dont appear in exposure when working with sinar files.

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    Re: The Shake Up: SINAR

    Quote Originally Posted by bdp View Post
    The software team has been promising a moire tool in future versions, along with other things, but I wonder if there is some low level 'automatic' moire reduction going on. I have very rarely seen moire with my eMotion 75 when processing with eXposure.
    Thanks.
    I shoot the P45 that has 6.8 microns and therefore should be a bit less prone to moire as the eM75. I have always moire in the areas you would expect to find some. As moire correction is one of the most destructive things you can do with an image I never correct moire in Capture One as it would affect the entire image. I always correct only the affected areas on layers in Photoshop and leave the rest of the image without correction. (In addition the moire correction in C1 doesn't work very well IMHO.)
    I don't like it when software does something "hidden" and you can't change it (the same applies to C1 but here not regarding moire).

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    Re: The Shake Up: SINAR

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    frankly I dont know - I dont see any softening or anything bad goin on but some (neg) effects which appear in c1 or adobe dont appear in exposure when working with sinar files.
    no wonder - only the manufacturers software can read all RAW data. I would always use the manufacturers RAW processor for MFDB files. Too, DNG support in C1 is somewhat noisy... IMHO. But C1 is very strong if it supports the files with respective settings and profiles... which is not the case with DNG files.
    And ACR... is a "RAW? Yes we can!" plugin. Actually ACR supports nothing. All cameras are treated the same way. There are no useful "profiles", everything is a bit washy, the midtones are very pronounced and images are a bit coarse... strange tool.
    Last edited by thomas; 10th July 2009 at 14:48.

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