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My thoughts on T/S for techical cameras

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Don,

I thought I'd wait for a few other answers before responding myself. Let me begin by simply saying I agree with what you wrote above.

My landscape course ran from a start with the 35mm SLR, then though various MF cameras, then to a wide variety of view cameras including 4x5 through 8x10. I even used a digital scanning back on a 4x5 to get there. With that in mind, I was very aware of the limitations of each system to begin with: 35 was too small a neg for holding lots of detail in a larger print; then with MF you got better detail for larger prints but now very often could not get enough DoF. Enter the view camera. Here I got the image detail and control of DoF and perspectives I wanted, although it wasn't very portable and certainly forced you to pick and choose your compositions with care due to time and media constraints.

Now enter digital and I *assumed* I wanted the same view movements and shooting techniques I had with film. However, I knew from LF days that adjusting the 8x10 for perspective and DoF was a magnitude of order easier than doing the same with 4x5, and then 4x5 was a magnitude of order easier than doing the same with a MF view camera, I realized MF digital with movements might be more problematic than for MF view, and eons more problematic than 4x5; as we all know, precise alignment is hyper critical with high res MF digital so anything "off dead true zero" is going to show in the final. I proved this once again with the scanning back -- even with the relatively large 3x4 inch scanning area, you needed digital focus confirmation to get precise focus, and no way you hit it exactly even using a 10x loupe on a perfectly aligned groundglass...

So as I've learned to compensate for lack of camera movements by adjusting for perspective in post, learning to focus stack for added DoF and learned to blend exposures for DR (eliminating the need for SND filters), my desire for a full movement digital MF tech camera has essentially gone away. At least until they make one I can zero out *perfectly* and set all movements precisely with AND is as totally rigid and precise as my SLR. And to date, I have not seen that camera. In the meantime, I am additionally waiting for a true un-tethered live focus built into a back. When I get that camera and back together, I will have the ultimate rig. Until then, I'll stick with my current back and camera because it works as well as anything else I've seen, at least for MY uses...
 

thomas

New member
At least until they make one I can zero out *perfectly* and set all movements precisely with AND is as totally rigid and precise as my SLR.
Jack, I really think that tolerances and variances are more a problem of the DBs, not necessarily of the cameras. At least that is my experience with 3 different cameras and 4 different backs mounted on each of them.
So tolerances will be the same on the MF body. Of course they become more obvious whith larger movements.
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Jack, I really think that tolerances and variances are more a problem of the DBs, not necessarily of the cameras. At least that is my experience with 3 different cameras and 4 different backs mounted on each of them.
So tolerances will be the same on the MF body. Of course they become more obvious whith larger movements.
I have to respectfully disagree, at least given my experience.

I have used across four different Mamiya bodies -- an AFD1, AFD2, and 2@AFD3 -- a Mamiya ZD back, a P25+ back, a P30+ back, a P45+ back and a P65+ back and every one of the combinations focused perfectly using the camera's built-in AF... Moreover, when CI, Guy, and I tested the P65+, we did several comparison shots by swapping out the P25+, P45+ and P65+ backs on one of our bodies -- didn't matter which at the time -- without refocusing and had *perfect* results. IOW regardless of which three bodies we chose and/or combo of backs, we had no issues. I have even swapped out my Phase back with Jim Collum who shoots a Mamiya mount Leaf 75s, and we have not seen any problems.

Surely if camera or back tolerance were a serious issue, I would have seen it on at least one of the above occasions, and I simply have not...

Cheers,
 

thomas

New member
That's fine and I do not doubt it!
But my personal experience is different. Tendentially more like J. Holmes' experiences (regarding tolerances of backs I mean...)
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Thomas,

Just curious, but how many "bad" backs have you had, which models exactly, and how did you determine it was the back versus the camera?

I know that early on Joe got a bad P45 non-plus back, though also remarked on several of us he knows who got good backs out of the gate :)D). (Admittedly, there seemed to be more of an issue with Phase non-plus backs of a few years back than we see now.) He also had a few assorted lens issues, but most of these were with Tech camera lenses and not his Mamiya glass. While he's had some focusing screen issues, I know of no specific camera body issue I recall him mentioning (FWIW Joe shoots Mamiya mount)...
 

thomas

New member
How many "bad" backs did you have, which models exactly
3.
A P45 refurbished (they exchanged the sensor mount and re-adjustet it and since then it's really great).
And I returned 2 new P21+ each on the first day. The third was okay.

and how did you determine it was the back versus the camera?
when the backs do exactly the same on three different cameras (2 Contax', 1 WRS) I am quite sure that the 3 cameras are okay (they are as they work good with the P45 and the 3rd P21+).
 

Don Libby

Well-known member
Don - which other tech cameras did you take in your hands or looked through?
Thomas - very good question and a simple answer. Just the Cambo. I did my research on line with various manufactures as well as reading the thoughts and viewpoint of those who came before me. If Cambo had not come out with the WRS I might be using another body. However Cambo did release the WRS and I felt it was a perfect fit for me, for the way I work and for what I want to capture. This is not to say that there aren't better cameras out there most costing more however once I had it in my hands I knew.

I also knew almost from the start which one I wouldn't consider even through it would have saved a bundle of cash as it did offer the working solutions I required.

So again the answer must be none others were tested or handled - just the Cambo. I've never had one second of buyers remorse.

Don
 

Don Libby

Well-known member
Jack - It's always scary when we start a conversation as we thing a lot alike.

I went from 35mm to MF to MFTC and have yet to take it to the next step. I've got a large format camera sitting in a storage box in the closet of my studio that belonged to a very dear friend who got me back into photography shortly before his death. It would be the most logical step for me to go if I decide to take the route - time will tell.

Returning to the subject at hand - I have the groundglass for the WRS and use it - however not for focus as I hadn't brought it for that intention. I use it when I'm working with filters and alignment to a certain degree.

I believe there's a lot of compromising in any photographic effort and none more truer than in digital. There's a big however here - most of what we are looking to achieve can be accomplished in post. However you need a spanking sharp image to begin with.

I've used a Mamiya AFD I, II and Phase One III as well as a Phase One P30+, a P45+ and can't forget the Kodak I brought from Ken that started me on this trip. I've used lenses from 28mm to 300mm and in every case I was fortunate enough to get tack sharp images so long as I did my part.

I was very concerned about the switch to a technical camera (ask Chris or Ken). Was I "smart enough" could I be able to grasp the proper workflow? I was very concerned about using a camera system where I couldn't look through the lens and see what I was about to capture. I found out early on within the first day of testing the system that all my concerns were just a bunch of bunk. This is not to say there hasn't been some problems with critical focusing on close in subjects; then I learned and started using focus stacking to achieve exactly what I was after.

I agree in principle with what you ask for in un-tethered live focus I don't see that happening without a cost to something else.

I also feel you may have stated my case better than I and I like your final sentence. I'll stick with my Cambo/Phase combination "because it works as anything else I've seen, at least for MY uses..."

Don
 

carstenw

Active member
My bias is easy: IMO both are essentially vaporware. So show me a dealer who has IN STOCK a complete RM3D OR ArTec outfit with lenses and the sliding back that I can buy today. Not special order, but take home TODAY...
I have no data on the Arca, but Tom ordered an arTec and had it in short order. It is a bit disingenuous to ask where it is in stock, because these are specialty items not usually in stock anywhere. Delivery times are very short, on the order of 1-2 weeks, from what I have heard. It might be different in different countries though.
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Disingenuous??? :wtf:

Carsten, with all due respect I think ANY dealer should be willing to demo a complete kit (of either) to me BEFORE I have to order one! The idea of having to order and pay in full for anything before I've had my hands on it for a test drive is ludicrous!

Cheers,
 

eleanorbrown

New member
Oookkkk...now that my name has been mentioned ..smiles....I will offer you all the link to the download Ken is talking about. I didn't post it before because the image is sooo, "boring" and, as I told Ken, I have fully intended to shoot a "better image" to show, which so far I haven't done. So if any are interested here's the download link..but keep in mind that this is a full res jpg from the 65+ with hts 1.5 with my 50mm lens. At the time I was relegated to working off my small laptop so to make the file more manageable I cropped off the sides...not because they were sharp or blurry (I didn't take time to notice honestly) but just to reduce the huge file size on my very slow MacBook Air processor. Here's the link! Eleanor
http://files.me.com/eleanorbrown/5i5dbf




....I was thinking that after you've dropped about 2K on the Cube, dropping a couple more on a nice T/S adapter would be peanuts....:rolleyes:

I very much understand Don's way of thinking (that alone is a scary proposition) but it doesn't stop me from wanting a good t/s alternative. I recognize Helicon focus offers an alternative to some, but for some reason it (software solution) just does not seem as satisfying....

Eleanor Brown was so kind to share with me a quick down and dirty image she took with her H2 and P65+ outfitted with the HTS 1.5. And I was impressed. Certainly better than a spit-shined Hartblei.... I wish the Phase platform had something like this.

The better alternative, of course, is a technical camera. And having t/s---it's just sexy.... I've spent too much this year already.....but I would love to have a technical camera with a t/s option--- Cambo or Alpa...
 

Don Libby

Well-known member
I feel I need to put a caveat here for those who may not know - much like standing up in front of a group of people and saying Hi my name is Don and I'm a landscape photographer..

I really thought I "needed" a viewfinder and sliding back to do "proper" photography - ended up not needing either.

The viewfinder would come handy so little and cost so much that I now know I don't need it. My normal capture workflow is to look over top of the camera as it faces "down range" and visualize the area the lens will be picking up. Call if a cone for lack of a better term. I also spend many days testing getting used to a new lens prior to taking it out for anything real (I've shared some of this in past posts). Once you know what your tolls are capable of giving you the rest is easy. I am not so full of myself as to say I always get exactly what I'm after however once I do a spot check on the LCD I'll know I either have it or need to add another image for additional movement (I don't move the camera rather I add whatever additional amount of movements I feel is necessary and correct in post). I have never taken an image where I've completely failed. There's been some discussion here regarding the use of viewfinders and I think I remember a couple of people saying that while they have viewfinders they've stopped using them.

Sliding back is the other item that was on my original must have list. Sure it looks good but does it "fit my workflow need"? The answer quickly came up no. Let's face it there simply isn't a decent groundglass available for MF. Add to the fact I now wear tri-focals. Yes it would be "nice" to have a better way to check on filter alignment other than removing the back and adapter put the groundglass on then remove that and replace it with the adapter and back. However I'm unwilling to give up the other things I love about the WRS in order to save a little bit of time.

Simply put if you like to run and gun then you don't want to be with me when I'm photography landscape. Time stands still.. It will often take me in excess of 5 minutes before I hit the first shutter release. Once I have the camera ready I'll often times pause to allow me to take everything in at the same time allowing for my heart rate to settle back down. I even try to release the shutter in between heart beats. Okay maybe not that bad but you get the point.

I guess the point I'm trying to get across is not all the wiz bang gizmos are needed or even necessary for everyone. The recommendation I would make is to slow down and think before you buy as it's harder to sell it after you find you really don't need it.

I'll step down from my soap box now...
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
I have no data on the Arca, but Tom ordered an arTec and had it in short order. It is a bit disingenuous to ask where it is in stock, because these are specialty items not usually in stock anywhere. Delivery times are very short, on the order of 1-2 weeks, from what I have heard. It might be different in different countries though.

Disingenuous??? :wtf:
Carsten, with all due respect I think ANY dealer should be willing to demo a complete kit (of either) to me BEFORE I have to order one! The idea of having to order and pay in full for anything before I've had my hands on it for a test drive is ludicrous!
Cheers,
In stock for purchase is a bit much to ask for these specialty items. Having a demo unit however is not out of line to expect so that potential buyers can actually shoot images with the $5k+ kit they are considering buying.

Also, speed has many aspects: shipping times, repair times, service times, and even answering simple questions by email are all slow as molasses from Arca Swiss. Cambo is just all around easier to deal with. Which is not a comment on their products: everything from the Cube to their Viewcameras are really solid products.
 
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Don Libby

Well-known member
Disingenuous??? :wtf:

Carsten, with all due respect I think ANY dealer should be willing to demo a complete kit (of either) to me BEFORE I have to order one! The idea of having to order and pay in full for anything before I've had my hands on it for a test drive is ludicrous!

Cheers,
Spot on Jack - much like buying a vehicle without the opportunity to test it. A camera dealer might not have the specific model I'm after but he/she should sure as hell be able to obtain a copy of it for me to evaluate it otherwise goodbye.
 

Don Libby

Well-known member
In stock for purchase is a bit much to ask for these specialty items. Having a demo unit however is not out of line to expect so that potential buyers can actually shoot images with the $5k+ kit they are considering buying.
God! I'd love it if the things I lusted after only cost $5K:ROTFL::ROTFL:
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
In stock for purchase is a bit much to ask for these specialty items. Having a demo unit however is not out of line to expect so that potential buyers can actually shoot images with the $5k+ kit they are considering buying.
Agreed on in stock versus demo copy...

But that $5K only gets me the LENS I want!!! :ROTFL: :ROTFL: :ROTFL:

(LOL! Don beat me to it!)
 

carstenw

Active member
Disingenuous??? :wtf:

Carsten, with all due respect I think ANY dealer should be willing to demo a complete kit (of either) to me BEFORE I have to order one! The idea of having to order and pay in full for anything before I've had my hands on it for a test drive is ludicrous!
Okay, I take back disingenuous and maybe give you unrealistic instead. In every category you care to mention there are items that a dealer doesn't stock, because they are special. Not only expensive items. I mean, you don't take hard drives out for a test drive either, right? :D And where can you test-drive a Canon 600mm f/4? And there are cars you can't test drive, at the top end. The arTec is no different. Don't expect to find one at your dealers. On the other hand, Tom was able to ask Sinar directly for a test drive, and IIRC got one shipped to him for a few days. I don't know what Arca does.
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Okay, I take back disingenuous and maybe give you unrealistic instead. In every category you care to mention there are items that a dealer doesn't stock, because they are special. Not only expensive items. I mean, you don't take hard drives out for a test drive either, right? :D And where can you test-drive a Canon 600mm f/4? And there are cars you can't test drive, at the top end. The arTec is no different. Don't expect to find one at your dealers. On the other hand, Tom was able to ask Sinar directly for a test drive, and IIRC got one shipped to him for a few days. I don't know what Arca does.
If I buy a hard drive from any dealer I regularly visit, I can return ir for an immediate replacement or refund if defective.

Yes, I can go test drive a Canon 600mm f4 IS lens right now at my local dealer that is less than a 15 minute drive for me.

I can even go test drive a Tessla in less than 20 minutes. The Vanquish I'd love to own is more like a one hour drive away, and I can drive virtually any Ferrari I might consider if I take a one-hour flight.

So yeah, I'd expect to be able to demo or "test drive" ANY camera I was seriously thinking about buying... :D
 
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