Leica S2 Pricing

[carstenw]

Actually, although no one uses the terms this way, technically the Contax, Hasselblad, Mamiya et al are also DSLRs. One might argue about the D, since it is optional, but that is just part of the flexibility of these cameras, I suppose. Perhaps it would be better to call the 35mm DSLRs and the Leica S2 integrated DSLRs.

 

[fotografz]

It's a DSLR. It has an SLR form factor, it's weather sealed, it's anything a DSLR is, except it has a larger sensor and uses Leica glass with autofocus. Add to that dng file format, SD and CF cards and what seems to be good ergonomics in a fully integrated system, and I think it looks like better value than a traditional MF camera, even if it costs more than a Hasselblad.

I agree that this is a system that will mostly attract high-end DSLR users, photographers who want the ultimate quality in a portable system. As nice as the MF cameras are, they are not what you throw in your bag for a quick walk downtown.

The body and a couple of lenses of the S2 would probably fit easily in the bottom of my Kata weekend bag. No MF camera even comes close to that, partly due to the form factor and partly due to the size. Since I travel a lot, and travel light, this is a camera I could live with. A Hasselblad isn't. How much would I pay? Since I don't have the monies anyway, my estimate doesn't carry much weight here, but if I had them: around $20,000 for a body with two lenses. 35 plus 120mm would be ideal, but probably not realistic for that price.

Not sure about the travel part of your therory. I used to travel extensively with a Contax 645 and three lenses, and it took less space than a regular 35mm Pro DSLR and three similar lenses. Being modular, the 645 MF camera can be broken down and configured to fit much smaller carry-on bags. Could take a film back also for B&W.

IMHO, a "quick walk downtown" is Sony A900 or Canon 5D-MKII territory ... or in my case a Leica M8. But a H3D-II/39 with a 80mm isn't all bad for a walk-about. Actually, pretty compact. Done it many times.

 

[jonoslack]

Jono - how goes it? Won't do a point/counterpoint. Lets just say we come at this sucker from two different mindsets ;>

I'm Well thank you - I quite understand that my opinion is not the 'right' one - but I'm sure it's a point of view that lots of other people who "just like taking pictures" will feel. Let's face it, there's a lot more than two ways of looking at it!

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

Not sure about the travel part of your therory. I used to travel extensively with a Contax 645 and three lenses, and it took less space than a regular 35mm Pro DSLR and three similar lenses. Being modular, the 645 MF camera can be broken down and configured to fit much smaller carry-on bags. Could take a film back also for B&W.

IMHO, a "quick walk downtown" is Sony A900 or Canon 5D-MKII territory ... or in my case a Leica M8. But a H3D-II/39 with a 80mm isn't all bad for a walk-about. Actually, pretty compact. Done it many times.

The modular thing is one of the areas where preferences are different. I don't want modules, but a system that consists of as few components as possible. It saves me time and logistics (yes, I do forget to bring vital components sometimes). If I see a motive that I like, I want to be able to pull the camera out of the bag, being ready to shoot in an instant. Obviously, I usually wouldn't need the resolution and quality of an S2 for that kind of shots, but sometimes, the motives that appear out of nowhere are valuable enough for me to want them in the highest possible quality.

As for the walk downtown; the S2 isn't much bigger than the A900 or the 5DII, and if money wasn't an objection, I'm sure I would choose the S2 for that as well (or an M8, but I don't have that one either).

 

[jonoslack]

The modular thing is one of the areas where preferences are different. I don't want modules, but a system that consists of as few components as possible. It saves me time and logistics (yes, I do forget to bring vital components sometimes). If I see a motive that I like, I want to be able to pull the camera out of the bag, being ready to shoot in an instant. Obviously, I usually wouldn't need the resolution and quality of an S2 for that kind of shots, but sometimes, the motives that appear out of nowhere are valuable enough for me to want them in the highest possible quality.

As for the walk downtown; the S2 isn't much bigger than the A900 or the 5DII, and if money wasn't an objection, I'm sure I would choose the S2 for that as well (or an M8, but I don't have that one either).

Hi Jorgen
I'm right with you here - whether it's possible to use MF as a travel setup or not isn't really the point, it's about perception and ease of use, and modular systems aren't that.

My angle on all of this is of someone who hasn't ever used MF - and I still think that's going to be the biggest part of the S2's market. I think it's tough for those who HAVE used MF to conceive of the apparent barrier to use (whether it's real or not is a different matter).

 

[robmac]

Indeed.

.........Let's face it, there's a lot more than two ways of looking at it!

 

[LJL]

I am agreeing with Jorgen and Jono on the modular v. contained design for ease of use, and that is something that most DSLRs have as a perceived advantage. Being able to reach into a smallish bag and pull out a camera that handles more like a 5DMkII or A900, but more weather sealed and with even better glass, and delivers more like a H3DII-39 or Phase w/40+ back is very attractive. We shall have to wait to see if that is real, but having used MF (Hassy film) and 35mm DSLRs, the size and handling of the latter is much preferred, especially if it can deliver the IQ of the former....or better ;-)

LJ

 

[Bob]

From my point of view (TM Leica) the right price is the price that maximizes profits for the company. I am not sure how elastic the S2 market might be, so it will probably be forced into "Leica scale" regions of manufacturing volume such that many of the possible economies of scale will not be available to the company. Given that, and the necessary amortization of R&D expense over the units sold plus waranty reserve, which seems pretty large in Leica's case, means that the price will be on the high side.

The other option for Leica, and it is a very big risk, is to assume that the market is quite elastic, so it will assume a lower price point at a larger manufacturing volume.
That assumption will very significantly drive up the cost of manufacturing facilities, unless that manufacturing out-sourced to the usual flexible manufacturing suspects. In any case, manufacturing tooling costs would be much higher essentially driving R&D expense much higher.
This would be a potentially fatal assumption, which I do not think they will take since my landsmen are a fairly conservative bunch.
So, the only question in my mind is will the camera deliver in its complete package, value that enough folks think is worth the coin. Looking at the low volume high cost alternatives out there, I would reach the conclusion that pricing at a premium to Phase/Phamiya or Hassy at similar resolutions would be the most likely result.
I wonder if thi is the reason for Phase to buy a controlling interest in Mamiya? hmmmm, yup that must be it along with the disappearance of other platforms that Phase might sell backs for.
So my $0.25 bet is that there is a good chance that Phamiya comes out with a more integrated solution. BTW, it is still possible to make such a camera sensor upgradable with only a minor penalty in ergonomics if the processing circuitry, power, and memory were to be integrated into the body. If I were running that show, that is what I would pursue, and quickly.
-bob

 

[arashm]

So my $0.25 bet is that there is a good chance that Phamiya comes out with a more integrated solution.

Actually I've thought about this...
The ZD is there, all it would take is for Phase to "stick" the P40+ sensor/electronics in there update the body and they have a S2 competitor....
we'll see
am

 

[LJL]

So my $0.25 bet is that there is a good chance that Phamiya comes out with a more integrated solution.

Actually I've thought about this...
The ZD is there, all it would take is for Phase to "stick" the P40+ sensor/electronics in there update the body and they have a S2 competitor....
we'll see
am

Me thinks Phase would have to put quite a bit of effort into improving the body they have for the ZD, like maybe a complete redesign and build to get the quality up several notches. Then the only other thing some folks would continue to wait for are those long ago promised leaf shutter lenses that are still not available....or just live with the focal plane shutter as now and not have very high sync speeds.

Nah, I think the Leica S2 solution is so much more elegant and practical. I may start thinking about upping my threshhold just a bit to maybe $16K for the starter kit, but the added lens costs are still going to be an issue.

LJ

 

[John Black]

LJ - Have you used the ZD?

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

Here's a rather well thought out comment to pricing of low volume products:

http://theonlinephotographer.typepa...he-price-of-being-small-and-taking-risks.html

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Short and simple answer I think it is worth 15k for body and lens kit. Let's see what Leica thinks.

 

[ptomsu]

I would not pay more than 14k$ for the body and lens too!

 

[LJL]

LJ - Have you used the ZD?

John,
Used?....no. When the ZD was first announced, I waited until one finally arrived at a dealership nearby. I thought the idea and such was really interesting until I saw the execution. It is not a bad camera, but coming from using high end Canons and Nikons, it handled like an oversized, slow plastic box, in my thinking at the time. On the MF side, I was used to shooting Hasselblad film cameras, not digital, and the ZD seemed about as bulky, but with far less precision and finish. I was not impressed. I recently picked one up again in a shop, and frankly, am still not impressed. It is not a bad camera, but it just seems to mimic the 35mm DSLR form, but falls short on many of the more important functions for handling and speed. It also was not delivering that much more of an image than I can get with the high end Canons I use. The ZD sounded like a great offering when announced, but I still cannot see it living up to the expectations I may have for it. The S2 may fall into the same area, but it sure does not look that way at this point. Sorry if I have offended ZD owners, but that camera looks and handles like a bold step that has failed to some degree. Will a revamped version be better? That is another thing to wait and see. I still think there is promise, but so far, the execution seems less than great. (I feel the same way about the AFD/Phase bodies, BTW. They are on the third iteration at this point, and it still does not excite me. Others feel quite differently, and love the body. I am not one of those folks. Sorry.)

LJ

 

[carstenw]

I have a slightly different feeling about the ZD, and find it quite attractive. It does have a slightly plasticky feel to it, but I don't see that as a problem. I don't see it as inferior to a 5D2 in any way that matters to me, and it is superior in the important ways.

Ultimately, I found it a bit limited and was unsure it would give me what I wanted (I am also not a Mamiya fan) and so I ended up with a Contax 645 and Sinar back, but I am sure that if I had bought it, I would be happily taking non-anti-aliased photos with great reds and detailed shadows at low ISOs

 

[LJL]

to be clear and fair, the ZD is not a plastic camera. It has a good metal alloy frame and such. It just has the feel of a plastic body that seems less sturdy. It may be the overall bulk of it that makes it seem that way. Not sure.

Secondly, in my very brief handlings of the ZD, I found it overloaded with controls (Nikon fans will like that sort of thing). I also was really unimpressed with how slow everything seemed on it. Took forever to get an image on the postage stamp sized LCD, for example, and the write to card was like molasses once the buffer filled. I realize that the files are big, but....

I was also not attracted to its rather limited ISO range.....50-100 for best work and starting to get marginal at 200 (fair amount of noise), and pretty ugly at 400. These are my impressions, and why I was not thrilled with the ZD. As I said, the concept is great....a bigger sensor in a somewhat more ergonomic body like a 35mm DSLR, but the overall execution just seemed to fall short for me. Sorry.

LJ

 

[Sharokin]

Short and simple answer I think it is worth 15k for body and lens kit. Let's see what Leica thinks.

Based on this do you think a P40+ back is worth $20K?

 

[arashm]

Based on this do you think a P40+ back is worth $20K?

I won't speak for others, but to me.... NO!
am

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Based on this do you think a P40+ back is worth $20K?

To me it is a much more valuable choice. I can use it on a Mamiya body and any tech camera made which gives me many choices. But i also would not be paying 20 k either. These are posted prices that are not always what you write the check for. The real question for me personally is how much worth it is it to me over the P30+ i currently own. The S2 is a new system that would not interest me or tickle my pocket for at least 6 months after it hits the streets and proves it's worth for one and also establishes some base to getting parts, lenses and service in hours and not in weeks. bottom line is I can't go down period and any system i pick or use will have the support for it on a immediate basis. Not saying the S2 will not but that will take time in the market to be established for those kinds of needs. I speak of this because this morning with 100 people on the line to shoot my Ranger pack went down and had to wait 4 hours to bring it back up. Not really it's fault but the battery was on in shipping and charging cord got beat up. Than my 1200 watt mono is about to hit the dirt and I still have to shoot. I'm in NY and no rental house open on saturday. So the bottom line in any of this is don't get screwed over by marketing hype and BS. I NEED **** THAT WORKS all the time. This is a no risk business and my bloody neck is on the line to say i am a bit miffed is a under statement at the moment.