Site Sponsors
Page 10 of 13 FirstFirst ... 8 9 10 11 12 ... LastLast
Results 451 to 500 of 637

Thread: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

  1. #451
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Fort Collins, Colorado
    Posts
    2,077
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    LJL

    Just a clarification from your last post.

    Filters were required to get accurate colors on "ALL" lenses, not just wide angles. The issue with the wide angles was that the filter caused cyan vignetting due to the wide angles of incidence. So the 6 bit coding was required for Leica correction algorithms to properly get rid of this cyan vignetting to a larger degree.

    Woody

  2. #452
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    True Woody but Leica did design or tune there firmware for there Leica filters which are a little less aggressive than the B+W. In the very wides it turned out to be mandatory to use the Leica filters because of the correction and cyan vignetting. You could get by with the B+W ones on the longer lenses but you are still off slightly by color. I did a lot of testing on this and bottom line conclusion . I used Leica filters on all lenses to be consistent. I think what LJ is saying is Leica could have tuned the firmware for the B+W ones but maybe costs to them may have been high to pass 2 to each customer and they actually went with Hoya to produce the Leica filters. Something we both saw in the factory for at least the 60mm which I needed at the time. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  3. #453
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1,513
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    LJL

    Just a clarification from your last post.

    Filters were required to get accurate colors on "ALL" lenses, not just wide angles. The issue with the wide angles was that the filter caused cyan vignetting due to the wide angles of incidence. So the 6 bit coding was required for Leica correction algorithms to properly get rid of this cyan vignetting to a larger degree.

    Woody
    Woody,
    that is correct....filters are needed on ALL lenses. What many folks had discovered was that they could use the stronger B+W filters on the longer focal length lenses, since there was no vignetting correction needed. The color balances were still a bit off compared to the Leica filters, but did not seem as objectionable or noticeable as on the wider angle lenses (generally around 35mm and wider), where there was both vignetting and color shift that was made worse because of the vignetting. So when one used a filter, as needed, that showed vignetting, there as a color shift in the vignetted area (green to pink) also. Hence, the vignetting correction, which was built into the in-camera processor and accessed through a table of correction values in the firmware, did require coding of the lenses to accomplish this. Folks could apply their own coding to non-coded lenses, which many did (and Carsten even posts a link to the various code patterns to be applied). Those codes are for Leica lenses with Leica filters only, though they seem to work for other lenses as well. There are cases where mounting screws or other features do not permit the application of the code correctly, and that became a problem. (For example, I use the coding for the Leica 24/2.8 on my Zeiss 25/2.8 and get very good, but not perfect results. I must use a Leica UV/IR filter however, as the B+W version still imparts a color shift in the vignetted area that is objectionable. That was why folks were asking Leica to enlarge the code table a bit to accommodate some of these other lenses and filter options, as well as to cover non-coded lenses with a software correction override of sorts. At least that is how I recall the many, long discussions.)

    As Guy said, that is a chapter from the past, and involves the M8. Some of us may just find it hard to shake off all of those issues when looking at the coming S2, which may have no issues, or new ones of its own. That is not trashing the S2, as I have welcomed the concept and design from the start. My issues are with cost and promises that remain to be executed. Lots we do not know beyond marketing releases at this point, yet the cost is quite steep, and there is no getting around that. Will the S2 live up to claims? We just to not yet know. I am sure it will be very good, but that much better than the other MF stuff with which it is now competing will be a tougher call for folks to make somehow.

    LJ

    P.S. The issue with the M8 was only asking Leica to make available a firmware adjustment that would permit the use of other options from those that were scarce at the time. The further issue that was raised with regard to the S2 and making adapters for using other lenses is far more involved than that. This entire discussion was to put that request/concept into perspective. With the S2, one has only Leica lenses as the option, and hoping that will change is an even steeper uphill battle for folks to consider in light of what went down with the M8. That is all I was trying to say from the start.
    Last edited by LJL; 7th August 2009 at 08:47.

  4. #454
    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Pratamnak
    Posts
    9,345
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2157

    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    There's another thread on this forum about some new, fantastic back for the H3D2. Here's a quote from that thread:

    "The only restriction is that a marginal crop is introduced with the HCD28 and the HCD35-90 in 35 mm setting. On a full frame 60 Mpix camera, the crop will result in an effective pixel count of 55 Mpix and a focal length factor of about 1.1."

    Like the S2, the H3D is a closed system, with no alternative suppliers. Still, within this system, Hasselblad has managed to introduce a sensor that isn't fully compatible with all their lenses. This is exactly the kind of blunders that I hope Leica will be avoiding for the S2. If I pay umpteen thousand dollars for a camera system, I don't want to concentrate on any crop factor for some of my lenses.

    Price is a worry, but getting things right, for every component within the system is even more important. Hopefully, Leica has learned that from the M8 experience.

  5. #455
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Well this is a point we have to see what Leica did as far as image circle. Okay it is designed for the S sensor but is it designed for a FF 645 sensor down the road if they choose to go in that direction. I will assume it is bigger than the S2 size today and most likely would handle even bigger but how much bigger if it went into say like a S5 or 6 camera with a 60mpx FF sensor like a P65+ size. Or Leica decided to separate the body and back at some point, will the lenses handle it. Questions to think about and see what they have done and what restrictions may attached to them if any of course. Obviously some lenses on the P65+ FF sensor today have some softness in the corners like the 28mm today. Now there is somewhat some control in the software to sharpen up those corners and actually does a nice job. But again we are back to software to do it and control it which is okay with me. But Leica also says everything is done in the design and no need for this. Well when you jump to a bigger sensor than all bets are off on that one.

    Now back to Hassy obviously they built there lenses or older ones to the 39 sensor size and some of there newer ones they built to accommodate the new bigger sensors. So being around this long in digital it seems they have somewhat a mixed bag with regards to lenses and sensor sizes. Now again that is my assumption and maybe someone with more knowledge of Hassy can chime in on it but this seems to be the case. There image circle on there older H lenses isjust not big enough to handle the larger sensors of the 50 and 60. But there newer lenses are

    Obviously this could happen to Leica as well as they possible increase the sensor size down the road. We have to see the real specs on this to figure it out
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  6. #456
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Munich
    Posts
    876
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    I really hope the S2 lens line will cover the current P65 size. If not the S2 is a short lived project. They can't shrink the pixel size further and further, perhaos a S3 would be possible with the same sensor size, but after that they need a larger one. So as Guy said we all hope Leica thought about the future of the S2 before making the lens design.

  7. #457
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    1,347
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    12

    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    The 35mm format has been existing for ages. So other formats have. I think the S2 is not aimed at photgraphers that need the highest resolution (artists, high end product ...). I rather think a S3 or S4 (as long as we will ever see those) will focus on other features than resolution.

  8. #458
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Well this is a point we have to see what Leica did as far as image circle. Okay it is designed for the S sensor but is it designed for a FF 645 sensor down the road if they choose to go in that direction. I will assume it is bigger than the S2 size today and most likely would handle even bigger but how much bigger if it went into say like a S5 or 6 camera with a 60mpx FF sensor like a P65+ size. Or Leica decided to separate the body and back at some point, will the lenses handle it. Questions to think about and see what they have done and what restrictions may attached to them if any of course. Obviously some lenses on the P65+ FF sensor today have some softness in the corners like the 28mm today. Now there is somewhat some control in the software to sharpen up those corners and actually does a nice job. But again we are back to software to do it and control it which is okay with me. But Leica also says everything is done in the design and no need for this. Well when you jump to a bigger sensor than all bets are off on that one.

    Now back to Hassy obviously they built there lenses or older ones to the 39 sensor size and some of there newer ones they built to accommodate the new bigger sensors. So being around this long in digital it seems they have somewhat a mixed bag with regards to lenses and sensor sizes. Now again that is my assumption and maybe someone with more knowledge of Hassy can chime in on it but this seems to be the case. There image circle on there older H lenses isjust not big enough to handle the larger sensors of the 50 and 60. But there newer lenses are

    Obviously this could happen to Leica as well as they possible increase the sensor size down the road. We have to see the real specs on this to figure it out
    FYI, that's not quite correct Guy. The HC lens line up was developed for film 645s, just like most Mamiya lenses. No one makes a full 645 sized digital sensor. I can use all of my H/C lenses full 645 coverage on the H2F film camera except the more recent 28mm.

    The only two lenses that will NOT cover a film 645 are the 28mm and new short zoom. Those lenses will cover the 31/39/50 meg sensors and just a smidge under the the new 60mm sensor (which @ 94% of a true 645 will produce a slight crop using something like 55 meg of the 60 meg sensor).

    IMO, the 28 was developed back when the 31 meg camera needed a wider lens due to the 1.3X crop factor which made the widest effective focal length using the HC/35mm @ 45.5mm. The only reason I got the 28mm was for use on the 31 meg camera so I would have an effective 35mm field of view.

  9. #459
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    3,848
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Now back to Hassy obviously they built there lenses or older ones to the 39 sensor size and some of there newer ones
    I can always tell a post from Guy, as their is no doubt they're will always be the word 'there' in their.

  10. #460
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    FYI, that's not quite correct Guy. The HC lens line up was developed for film 645s, just like most Mamiya lenses. No one makes a full 645 sized digital sensor. I can use all of my H/C lenses full 645 coverage on the H2F film camera except the more recent 28mm.

    The only two lenses that will NOT cover a film 645 are the 28mm and new short zoom. Those lenses will cover the 31/39/50 meg sensors and just a smidge under the the new 60mm sensor (which @ 94% of a true 645 will produce a slight crop using something like 55 meg of the 60 meg sensor).

    IMO, the 28 was developed back when the 31 meg camera needed a wider lens due to the 1.3X crop factor which made the widest effective focal length using the HC/35mm @ 45.5mm. The only reason I got the 28mm was for use on the 31 meg camera so I would have an effective 35mm field of view.
    Thanks bud i was counting on you to correct me if I was off. Reason i usually qualify the Hassy talk to I believe or something like check to make sure. LOL

    BTW main reason I shoot the 28mm also is the crop factor
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  11. #461
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    I can always tell a post from Guy, as their is no doubt they're will always be the word 'there' in their.
    Well they screwed up the english language. What the hell where they thinking throwing me a curve ball. I seriously think i have a mental block on those two words.

    Now if they were correct would you actually believe it was my post.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  12. #462
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Thanks bud i was counting on you to correct me if I was off. Reason i usually qualify the Hassy talk to I believe or something like check to make sure. LOL

    BTW main reason I shoot the 28mm also is the crop factor
    Well, a forum member was kind enough to inform me of an error in my answer to you Guy. The HCD/28mm produces a field of view of 31mm on the H3D/31 ... not 35mm.

    I forgot that the HCD lenses have a smaller image circle so the 1.3X crop factor does not apply like it does with all the other HC lenses.

  13. #463
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    carstenw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Berlin, Germany
    Posts
    2,530
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    28mm is not the focal length of the lens? I would be ultra-surprised if that were the case. I have never in my life seen a serious lens with an equivalent focal length written on it, just compacts. Whether it can cover FF or not doesn't change the focal length, and the image that you crop down to still represents that, here 1.3x on the 31MP sensors.

    Where is David Grover these days? On vacation?
    Carsten - Website

  14. #464
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    The 35mm format has been existing for ages. So other formats have. I think the S2 is not aimed at photgraphers that need the highest resolution (artists, high end product ...). I rather think a S3 or S4 (as long as we will ever see those) will focus on other features than resolution.
    I tend to agree with this. Basically, the S2 is simply a different form factor ... much like 645 was when most MF cameras were 6X6, 6X7, or bigger.

    It just provides us with choices. High meg 35mm DSLR, this "tweener" S2, or the big guns with up to 60 meg and an even larger sensor.

    40 meg is a lot of resolution, more than most will ever need.

    I also still contend that an enormous amount of improvement is possible as software and firmware technology advances. That aspect will keep the S2 going IF Leica pays attention to it. Since they are not tied to an outside company like the DMR was, there is no reason to believe that Leica won't keep the S2 moving forward with tweaks. Hasselblad has vastly improved my current H system hardware performance with software and firmware improvements ... very easy to do with a so called "closed" system like the S2 is.

    The ace in the hole for Leica is the optics ... I am continuously delighted by what a measly 10 meg., crop frame M8 is able to produce even compared to my FF, state of the art 35mm DSLRs when it comes to the actual end product.

    If that performance ratio is anywhere similar for the S2, it will bark with the big MFD dogs and then some when it comes to the end product ... and the end product is all that matters.

    None of that mitigates the fact that it's something I wish I could afford and justify, but can't right now ... and maybe never will.

    Well, I'm close to retirement, so I shouldn't say "never". If I sold everthing (big PITA) I could probably do it. It'd be a nice way to thrift down the inventory of stuff I've collected over the years and settle in on one system for each form factor.

    But quite frankly I'm more interested in the impending M9 than the S2.

  15. #465
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Shodoshima, Japan
    Posts
    258
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Perhaps Leica isn't depending on the American market?

    http://retail-sector.suite101.com/ar..._retail_market

    Kumar

  16. #466
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    28mm is not the focal length of the lens? I would be ultra-surprised if that were the case. I have never in my life seen a serious lens with an equivalent focal length written on it, just compacts. Whether it can cover FF or not doesn't change the focal length, and the image that you crop down to still represents that, here 1.3x on the 31MP sensors.

    Where is David Grover these days? On vacation?
    Well in MF the focal length written is the number for a Full Frame 645 which as we all know is not really true with any of the systems because none are a true 645 FF film size. There is always some crop in it. My back is a 1.3 crop so it is really a 36mm( I think , need to look at that calculator again) focal length for my back . Now to get a equivalent of a 35mm framing I think is is like a 24mm. This is the case with any MF system, it depends on the crop factor.

    Now if your saying it may not be a true 28mm by definition of what is written on the lens well that maybe true most lenses are rounded up or down to some whole number. That goes for everything in all systems including 35mm. But that really is a moot point, that has been going on since the beginning. It truly maybe a 27.5 or 28.9 focal length.

    When you buy the lens you buy a 28mm even though your crop factor for each back will change the field of view. Yes it's a PITA to convert all the time for your own back. In this case Leica 70mm is considered the normal but in MF the 80mm is. Talk about confusing the issue even more.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  17. #467
    Senior Member Lars's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Sunnyvale, California
    Posts
    1,811
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    19

    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    28mm is not the focal length of the lens? I would be ultra-surprised if that were the case. I have never in my life seen a serious lens with an equivalent focal length written on it, just compacts.
    That's actually quite common among large format lenses. lens designs are aimed for a certain focal length but might be one or a few millimeters off. This can for example be seen in Schneider's published specs.
    Monochrome: http://mochro.com

  18. #468
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    carstenw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Berlin, Germany
    Posts
    2,530
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Lars, the Hasselblad 28mm might not be exactly 28mm, but that is not what I was trying to get at.

    I stand corrected. I just browsed Hasselblad's website, and the HCD 28mm lens is *effectively* 28mm on a 36,8x49,1mm sensor, i.e. the H3DII-50 and H3DII-39. This means that in reality it is a 25mm lens, roughly, but a 28mm on the cameras which Hasselblad last year called full-frame, i.e. 36,8x49,1mm.

    Marking a lens with an effective focal length rather than an actual focal length puts Hasselblad in the same company as the compact camera manufacturers. I don't know anyone else who uses these dubious marketing strategies. I wonder why they decided to do that? I guess the 35-90mm zoom is actually also wider than that in reality.

    http://www.hasselblad.com/media/1342...tasheet_v4.pdf
    Carsten - Website

  19. #469
    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Pratamnak
    Posts
    9,345
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2157

    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by FromJapan View Post
    Perhaps Leica isn't depending on the American market?

    http://retail-sector.suite101.com/ar..._retail_market

    Kumar
    The potential for Leica in China is probably huge. Not only are there lots of people with money, but buying expensive brands is very much in vogue. Nokia has been into that market for many years. Here's a model that sells well among rich people in Asia:

    http://www.nokia.com.hk/find-product...8800-gold-arte

    Price? Around $2,500. That's twothousandfivehundred American dollars, and the specs are rather mediocre.

    I remember reading a comparison of luxury cars here in Bangkok a few years ago. One of them was the Volvo S80, which was the cheapest one by a healthy margin. Was that counted as an advantage? Not at all. The opposite was the case. In that market segment, a lower price means lower status in many parts of Asia.

    Will those people buy a Leica S2? Some of them will, and I guess we should be happy about that. Just like those who buy a D3X with the 200mm f/2.0 to take photos of their cats and dogs, they help increasing the production volume thus making high end photo equipment cheaper for the rest of us.

  20. #470
    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Pratamnak
    Posts
    9,345
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2157

    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    They can't shrink the pixel size further and further, ...
    Yes, they can. That's what all sensor manufacturers have been doing for a decade now. Technology will just keep getting better. The limitation will be the lenses, but that's the part where Leica shines anyway, so hopefully there are no serious worries.

    Another thing is that there is probably a limit with regards to how many megapixels are needed, even for high end pro cameras. The improvements in future models will probably be in other areas. There's probably no way around video. Like it or not, these technologies are converging, and photographers will have to adapt.

  21. #471
    Senior Member Lars's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Sunnyvale, California
    Posts
    1,811
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    19

    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    I just browsed Hasselblad's website, and the HCD 28mm lens is *effectively* 28mm on a 36,8x49,1mm sensor, i.e. the H3DII-50 and H3DII-39. This means that in reality it is a 25mm lens, roughly, but a 28mm on the cameras which Hasselblad last year called full-frame, i.e. 36,8x49,1mm.
    Aaargh! I wish lens manufacturers would use "angle of view" instead of "effective focal length". Hehe.
    Monochrome: http://mochro.com

  22. #472
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    carstenw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Berlin, Germany
    Posts
    2,530
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Yes, agree! It would take a short while to get used to, and then never again confusion! Although... angle of view for which sensor size? Argh. A table on each lens?
    Carsten - Website

  23. #473
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Munich
    Posts
    876
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Yes, they can. That's what all sensor manufacturers have been doing for a decade now. Technology will just keep getting better. The limitation will be the lenses, but that's the part where Leica shines anyway, so hopefully there are no serious worries.

    Another thing is that there is probably a limit with regards to how many megapixels are needed, even for high end pro cameras. The improvements in future models will probably be in other areas. There's probably no way around video. Like it or not, these technologies are converging, and photographers will have to adapt.
    Not if you stick with delsa and kodak. We won't see any new brilliant sensors from whem, perhaps one more step in a few years but that's probably it. I would say the future lies a lot more in CMOS like RED uses and not "old" CCD stuff. But than again we probably won't need any cameras anymore in the more distant future.

  24. #474
    Subscriber & Workshop Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    New York, NY
    Posts
    1,178
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    414

    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Lars Vinberg View Post
    That's actually quite common among large format lenses. lens designs are aimed for a certain focal length but might be one or a few millimeters off. This can for example be seen in Schneider's published specs.
    This is true for Leica M lenses as well. On some M lenses there is a code number inscribed after the infinity mark which is a code to the actual focal length.

  25. #475
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    carstenw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Berlin, Germany
    Posts
    2,530
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Yup, Leica M 50mm lenses tend to actually be 52mm, for some reason.
    Carsten - Website

  26. #476
    Administrator Bob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Prescott, Arizona
    Posts
    4,492
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    367

    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Well, if they are a little long, then they can be shimmed, if short, then you need to grind metal.
    -bob

  27. #477
    Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    245
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    Not if you stick with delsa and kodak. We won't see any new brilliant sensors from whem, perhaps one more step in a few years but that's probably it. I would say the future lies a lot more in CMOS like RED uses and not "old" CCD stuff. But than again we probably won't need any cameras anymore in the more distant future.
    actually as a recent Sigma DP-1 owner, I'm surprised we haven't seen more from Sigma or for that matter anyone else.
    A larger Foveon sensor or similar technology sensor could be absolutely amazing.
    but I'm going OT, sorry
    am

  28. #478
    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Pratamnak
    Posts
    9,345
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2157

    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    Not if you stick with delsa and kodak. We won't see any new brilliant sensors from whem, perhaps one more step in a few years but that's probably it. I would say the future lies a lot more in CMOS like RED uses and not "old" CCD stuff. But than again we probably won't need any cameras anymore in the more distant future.
    RED is obviously the key word when it comes to convergence. If Hasselblad and Phamiya doesn't respond to that challenge, they're history in ten years. The only way Leica can sneak around the problem, is to sell something that appears smaller, lighter and easier to use, which is what they've done. But even then, they will have to develop their offering in the future, and just more megapixels and/or lower noise probably won't cut it.

  29. #479
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    RED is obviously the key word when it comes to convergence. If Hasselblad and Phamiya doesn't respond to that challenge, they're history in ten years. The only way Leica can sneak around the problem, is to sell something that appears smaller, lighter and easier to use, which is what they've done. But even then, they will have to develop their offering in the future, and just more megapixels and/or lower noise probably won't cut it.
    I'm curious as to why the speculation that "convergence" is so critical to the future of these companies?

    I grasp the fact that video features are all the rage right now, but I don't think that the disciplines required for motion work are all that easy to acquire, nor are the ancillary aspects of it.

    If you think still still software is even slightly complex wait until you get involved with motion. Most people can barely handle the basics of Photoshop let alone Final Cut Pro. And you can pretty much toss your present computer and storage configuration while you're at it.

    I'm also curious as to who's going to use a converged system?

    Landscape photographers? There are so many super talented and highly dedicated wildlife cinematographers that are the target for RED, why would a dedicated still shooter add motion? The entire infrastructure of the still shooter would have to change ... and to what end?

    Portrait Photographers? Can't think of anything more boring than a 10 minute short of someone's face. Warhole comes to mind

    Tabletop shooters? Sure some dual still/motion shooters already exist. None of them BUY the motion gear and required lighting, they rent it and hire tech people to run it, AND rarely edit anything themselves ... that's the job of the edit houses. Still tabletop work is often done using T/S systems (???)

    Corporate shooters? Possibly, but most corporate motion work is for web sites. Sure don't need a RED outfit for that.

    Wedding photographers? At the prices paid for wedding videos, it would take a lifetime to pay for a RED outfit.

    I could go on, but I think my point is made.

  30. #480
    Senior Member Quentin_Bargate's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Saffron Walden, UK
    Posts
    1,983
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    58

    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    I agree, I am simply totally uninterested in using a "converged" system. I shoot still photography and have not the slightest interest in shooting video - or paying extra for a device that does. I don't even own a video camera.

    Quentin
    Quentin Bargate
    Director of Bargate Murray, Law Firm of the Year 2012 - 2017, ”leading individual”, Chambers HNW guide, 2017, Photographer

  31. #481
    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Pratamnak
    Posts
    9,345
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2157

    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    "We", meaning the current crop of grumpy, old men who are calling ourselves photographers, are totally uninterested in the convergent technology. On the other hand, the marketing, engineering and management staff who leave the universities now and in the future, and who will work for our clients in a year or five, and the photographers who studied at the same universities at the same time, will see the possibilities. Possibilities for better marketing, more efficient use of online media, cost saving etc.

    Example:
    I do a lot of industrial photography. Some of it is documentation of production processes for use in internal documentation, marketing and training of internal as well as customer staff. So far, I've had inquiries from two clients if I would be interested in doing videos in addition to photos of these processes. One of the clients is a Nikon user, and asked directly if I would be able to use a Nikon D300s for this.

    For him there are cost savings having one person doing the whole process, and it simplifies his communication. For me, should I choose to accept the job, using an all Nikon system means large cost savings compared to buying a separate video camera. Yes, the software is a challenge, but those young, hungry photographers coming after us already know how to use that software. This is what they teach in universities these day. Luckily for me, I've already done some Flash animation, which makes it easier to adapt.

    It's important to remember that, 15 years ago, almost all photographic work was published on some kind of printed media. Today, printed media are shrinking, while internet and other interactive media have opened up a huge, new potential for photography, video and animation. Since I'm a graphic designer as well as a photographer, I see the whole world changing under my feet.

    Only four years ago, I was dragged into digital photography, kicking and screaming. Now, my attitude is that adapting is smarter than dying. It's great fun walking the streets of Hanoi with the Fuji and an 85mm, but I can't expect to make a living that way, not now and not in five years.

    As for Hasselblad and Phamiya, they are solidly placed in the tiny, little market segment where bleeding edge technology may suddenly take over, simply because it makes sense from a conceptual as well as economical point of view. It may not happen overnight, but the change will come, just as laser and ink-jet printers took over the computer printer market. Anybody remember line-printers? I used to work at a computer center that had a bunch of those. That's less than 25 years ago, and current teenagers haven't even heard of them.

    Edit:
    Never underestimate the need for high quality output. Today, people accept to see video on the internet in a tiny, low quality frame. Competition will drive that quality all they way to full HD and beyond. As for corporate customers, the need is already there. It's just a question of awareness.

    There will obviously be photographers in the future too who do only stills. The question is if they will be many enough to keep the high-end manufacturers like Hasselblad and Phamiya alive, particularly if longer production runs make convergent systems cheaper to manufacture.
    Last edited by Jorgen Udvang; 10th August 2009 at 03:45.

  32. #482
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    154
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    The focal lengthes of the HCD-lenses are real, so 28mm and 35-90mm. I've just calculated the theoretical angle of view of a 28mm-lens with a 36,8mmx49,1mm-sensor: it's 95°, just like they say.

    The S-lenses are designed for the 30x45, even taking the cover-glass into account - that was told to me by their engineers. It's the "LeicaPro"-format, so any future camera in the S-system and it's lenses are designed for 30x45mm image area - not less or more. Kodak (Dalsa and Schneider/Rodenstock seem to agree) claims that the pixel-pitch of sensors can be further reduced to 5µm (~2002: 9µm, ~2004: 7,2/6,8µm: ~2008: 6µm) without any revolution in sensor design and compromising IQ, which basically means improving the fill-rate (the pixel-pitch becomes smaller, but not the light-sensitive area).
    Delivering 100lp/mm (5µm) at high contrast over the whole image area (a large image area!) is really difficult and diffraction becomes a real issue (f8?)

    So I hope we will see more cool features and lots of investment into the professional/demanding-market (not only press-cameras) but right now, Leica seems to be the only one with an entirely new system - hopefully Phase will change Mamiyas investment-strategy... (how long do we wait for their central shutter lenses?). But major improvement regarding practical IQ? I don't think so.

    Lots of hopes seem to focus on RED. Their marketing is clever and powerful (the exact opposite of Leica?) but besides that, don't expect any wonders. They don't like to share any fundamental technical information like other professional companies do. We are thrilled by a modular camera-system with a 645-617-CMOS-sensor but when you talk to someone who actually used and compared their current offering (RED ONE) with other cameras you will see that their technology is as limited as others.
    It's CMOS-sensor delivers the usual performance you would expect from such a design with the usual problems (dynamic range, noise) and has very little to do with the quality MF-users are used to. The RED uses heavy compression algorithms (>>1:10!!!) so a higher-quality should be possible if they allow uncompressed photography with the promised cameras but just take a look at the so-called 4k-images, it's a video-camera, not a stil-photo-system:
    http://www.macvilleproductions.com/r...0518_00115.jpg

    Everybody seems to complain about DALSA/Kodak-sensors, they want smooth 1600ASA, 100fps, live-view... But regarding IQ, I don't think there's a viable option right now. At least DALSA (I have no idea what crazy cost-cutting-ideas will come into the minds of Kodak-mamagers and how it effects their future sensor-business) will improve their sensors, they have the technology and experience. And I'm sure when fast CMOS-sensors are possible without any restricition regarding IQ, they will offer it and I hope companies with great bodies, electronics and lenses will use them.
    Last edited by georgl; 10th August 2009 at 03:53.

  33. #483
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    2,338
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    52

    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    @ < 6microns and current areas - no manufacturer can make a lens able to make use of the resolving power of the chip - and that is assuming perfect workflow. It is already game over for the uber geek lens freak.

    What I want is seriously larger chips with fatter pixel pitches > 9 microns so I can catch bucket loads of fat light on a technical camera with movements and can get back to serious control over the making of an image.

    If photographers want to be something different to a still frame grab from a video camera - photographers need proper cameras - think 4x5 film and all the benefits of movements - and lenses that actually aren't out resolved by chips.

    Of course this wont appeal to the SLR brigade who are getting exactly what they are asking for from MFD company marketers - more useless megapixels and less useability - because the SIZE of the chips are just too damn small to do anything with in terms of composiiton - thats why people are screaming for live video - some way to be able to actually frame /compose/focus using combinations of shift/tilt and swing..but the chip areas are just too small to work with easilly

    What is needed is less minituarisation tech ..I am happy with 25 or 50 ISO a tripod / some fat light and an ability to use movement via fresnel. That workflow is what photographers used to be able to use with film - and that is why I have noted a resurgence amongst serious hobbyists with larger format film.

    Sure your P65+ can match or exceed the resolution of large format film - what it can't do is allow for an easy picture making workflow incorprorating movements. no movements and all you end up with is same ol same ol perspectives and the usual photoshop workarounds - so boring to the eye so very very boring..

  34. #484
    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Pratamnak
    Posts
    9,345
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2157

    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Peter et all,
    This is a very interesting discussion, along the lines of "In what directions is photography heading". A separate thread?

  35. #485
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Montreal, Canada
    Posts
    47
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    @ < 6microns and current areas - no manufacturer can make a lens able to make use of the resolving power of the chip - and that is assuming perfect workflow. It is already game over for the uber geek lens freak
    I don't think this is accurate! Zeiss already mentioned in 2002 that they were reaching over 250 lp/mm with the lenses Zeiss Distagon T* 3,5/60 and
    Zeiss Superachromat 5,6/250. They also currently mention on their FAQ that they reached 280 lp/mm with the Superchromat 250. Based on a previous post on the page, if 5 microns = 100lp/mm, lenses are fine in terms of resolution. A fair conclusion may be that lenses are still outresolving sensor at this point and for at least a couple of years.

    The issue in digital is not the resolving capacity of lenses, it is the collimation of light, or having the light hitting the sensor more perpendicular. The 4/3 world refer to telecentric, although I prefer the physics term collimation.

    Now where's the issue? Is it the lens that doesn't collimate the light enough or is it the the sensor that doesn't tolerate enough a non perpendicular light? LOL! The problem definitely lies between the lens and/or the sensor and it depends which point of view one is taking.

    No matter where is the problem, the issue is one of collimation, not of resolution.

    Also that is purely a physics phenomenon, I don't think the workflow has anything to do with that as it is mentioned into the quoted text.

    Please someone corrects me if I wrong, but my understanding leads me to that instead! And as a potential "uber geek lens freak" I think I will still survive!
    Francois B.

  36. #486
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Montreal, Canada
    Posts
    47
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    I hope that Leica made the design of their S lenses to better collimate the light, That will ease the making of the sensor and avoiding to put offset microlenses as they have done on the M8 to rectify the insane incident angle of light rays found on rangefinder lenses.

    If Leica lenses collimate the light well, I think it may helps them to reach a better quality (i.e. IQ) directly or indirectly by using a better lens design to start with. My guess is that they used their experience with the M8 and came up with something to avoid the encountered issues, unavoidable at that time!
    Francois B.

  37. #487
    Member Arjuna's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Calgary, Alberta
    Posts
    203
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    With all due respect, I think that the resolution measurements for a couple of exotic, highly corrected, very expensive, telephoto lenses may not be completely representative of all the lenses that are in common use. In particular my understanding is that wider angle lenses present more optical challenges. Also, I think that collimation is not quite as big an issue in the medium format world, with its much longer flange to film/sensor distances, as it is in the Leica rangefinder / 4/3 format / 35 mm SLR heritage worlds.

  38. #488
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Montreal, Canada
    Posts
    47
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    I agree that it might in fact be a mooter point for MF than what I could have initially thought! Good point!

    The "exotic, highly corrected, very expensive, telephoto lens" would certainly be the 250mm, I don't think the 60mm is so exotic lens and it does reach at least 250 lp/mm. Not bad I think! I don't know if that lens is still expensive or not on the market.

    Edit: After some searches, I found the lens to be well position price wise into the Hassy lens lineup according to its focal length.
    Last edited by Mozbee; 10th August 2009 at 11:07.
    Francois B.

  39. #489
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Well just to add I do have a Phase P30+ back that does have micro-lenses and it's purpose is to gather light. Now i do have the only back rated at ISO 1600 as well . Full resolution i should add. Now i can't use my back on a tech camera though because i will get color shift. I think the M8 had a different purpose for the micro lenses and was designed more to bring light to the corners because of the sensor to lens closeness. This is not a issue with MF or DSLR's for that matter. I can't speak for the S2 which has micro lenses but I will assume that is for the same purpose as my back just to gather more light and not a corner issue like the M8. Now I would like to hear just for clarification from the Phase folks and the also Leica for the purpose of the S2 and micro lenses
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  40. #490
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Montreal, Canada
    Posts
    47
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Guy,
    Some more techies people can probably say more on the collimation and in regards to the format. From what I've read in the past, 35mm DSLR are also affected by collimation, just at a different degree compares to a rangefinder camera. I think the microlens is playing both roles of concentrator and collimator of light. The importance of one or the other will vary from body/lens combination to another. The idea is the same, you want the most number of photons to it the bottom of each sensor's cells.

    My main point with this was just to bring more substance around the fact that lenses are having enough resolution, the perceived issue resides elsewhere!
    Francois B.

  41. #491
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Yea i know when to get off the bus and ask questions. I am no engineer. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  42. #492
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    carstenw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Berlin, Germany
    Posts
    2,530
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Mozbee View Post
    Guy,
    Some more techies people can probably say more on the collimation and in regards to the format. From what I've read in the past, 35mm DSLR are also affected by collimation, just at a different degree compares to a rangefinder camera. I think the microlens is playing both roles of concentrator and collimator of light. The importance of one or the other will vary from body/lens combination to another. The idea is the same, you want the most number of photons to it the bottom of each sensor's cells.

    My main point with this was just to bring more substance around the fact that lenses are having enough resolution, the perceived issue resides elsewhere!
    I am not convinced that you are right. In fact, Olympus bet their boat on this strategy with the 4/3 system, thinking that perpendicularity of ray impingement (which as a term I prefer to collimation, which sound too much like sublimation to me) was a far bigger deal than it eventually turned out to be. The very large, for the sensor's size, distance from mount to sensor in the 4/3 system resulted in cameras which never reached the expected diminutive sizes envisioned early on, until very recently, much too late to conquer the market.

    Clearly, the issue remains for the Leica M system, but most other systems have larger problems elsewhere.
    Carsten - Website

  43. #493
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    "We", meaning the current crop of grumpy, old men who are calling ourselves photographers, are totally uninterested in the convergent technology. On the other hand, the marketing, engineering and management staff who leave the universities now and in the future, and who will work for our clients in a year or five, and the photographers who studied at the same universities at the same time, will see the possibilities. Possibilities for better marketing, more efficient use of online media, cost saving etc.

    Example:
    I do a lot of industrial photography. Some of it is documentation of production processes for use in internal documentation, marketing and training of internal as well as customer staff. So far, I've had inquiries from two clients if I would be interested in doing videos in addition to photos of these processes. One of the clients is a Nikon user, and asked directly if I would be able to use a Nikon D300s for this.

    For him there are cost savings having one person doing the whole process, and it simplifies his communication. For me, should I choose to accept the job, using an all Nikon system means large cost savings compared to buying a separate video camera. Yes, the software is a challenge, but those young, hungry photographers coming after us already know how to use that software. This is what they teach in universities these day. Luckily for me, I've already done some Flash animation, which makes it easier to adapt.

    It's important to remember that, 15 years ago, almost all photographic work was published on some kind of printed media. Today, printed media are shrinking, while internet and other interactive media have opened up a huge, new potential for photography, video and animation. Since I'm a graphic designer as well as a photographer, I see the whole world changing under my feet.

    Only four years ago, I was dragged into digital photography, kicking and screaming. Now, my attitude is that adapting is smarter than dying. It's great fun walking the streets of Hanoi with the Fuji and an 85mm, but I can't expect to make a living that way, not now and not in five years.

    As for Hasselblad and Phamiya, they are solidly placed in the tiny, little market segment where bleeding edge technology may suddenly take over, simply because it makes sense from a conceptual as well as economical point of view. It may not happen overnight, but the change will come, just as laser and ink-jet printers took over the computer printer market. Anybody remember line-printers? I used to work at a computer center that had a bunch of those. That's less than 25 years ago, and current teenagers haven't even heard of them.

    Edit:
    Never underestimate the need for high quality output. Today, people accept to see video on the internet in a tiny, low quality frame. Competition will drive that quality all they way to full HD and beyond. As for corporate customers, the need is already there. It's just a question of awareness.

    There will obviously be photographers in the future too who do only stills. The question is if they will be many enough to keep the high-end manufacturers like Hasselblad and Phamiya alive, particularly if longer production runs make convergent systems cheaper to manufacture.
    I think you may be over-estimating the skill and talent of new people using video, and under-estimating the skill and talent needed to make motion pictures. Yes, there are exceptions to the rule, but by no means is it a common skill or talent ... in fact, it's quite uncommon.

    BTW, my career was motion work. Planning, executing and post is an entirely different discipline. It's been the lead photographic form factor for decades. Nothing new there. Yet, I'm still alive as a still shooter. Yes, still photography is a shrinking business. But so is motion work.

    IMO, our corporate industrial example is hardly typical and a Nikon D300s is hardly a RED outfit. Most people just do not grasp what's involved with shooting motion work of a high quality nature.

    Some fine examples of videos have been shown from the 5D-MKII ... they were mostly shot by professional videographers that were already very good and quite talented. Lot's of people will be profoundly disappointed when they try to duplicate that experience. Just because their camera can do it, doesn't mean they can.

    As far a quality is concerned, that's been dumbed down by the internet to the point that cell phone video has become acceptable ... even for TV programs.

  44. #494
    Administrator Bob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Prescott, Arizona
    Posts
    4,492
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    367

    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    I find the prospect of shooting video daunting. I will try, but I am full of trepidation.
    -bob

  45. #495
    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Pratamnak
    Posts
    9,345
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2157

    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I think you may be over-estimating the skill and talent of new people using video, and under-estimating the skill and talent needed to make motion pictures. Yes, there are exceptions to the rule, but by no means is it a common skill or talent ... in fact, it's quite uncommon.

    BTW, my career was motion work. Planning, executing and post is an entirely different discipline. It's been the lead photographic form factor for decades. Nothing new there. Yet, I'm still alive as a still shooter. Yes, still photography is a shrinking business. But so is motion work.

    IMO, our corporate industrial example is hardly typical and a Nikon D300s is hardly a RED outfit. Most people just do not grasp what's involved with shooting motion work of a high quality nature.

    Some fine examples of videos have been shown from the 5D-MKII ... they were mostly shot by professional videographers that were already very good and quite talented. Lot's of people will be profoundly disappointed when they try to duplicate that experience. Just because their camera can do it, doesn't mean they can.

    As far a quality is concerned, that's been dumbed down by the internet to the point that cell phone video has become acceptable ... even for TV programs.
    Your last sentence is unfortunately(?) the key to a big portion of the future market. I've been raised with the artistic and technical pride of real TV production (my father is a retired TV director), but that kind of quality thinking is getting increasingly difficult to find. Most of what is distributed today, even by large, commercial TV station, is of rather mediocre quality.

    I mention the D300s example, not because I think it's "the same as" RED, but because it shows that clients are often aware of the technical development, and want to take advantage of it for their own applications. I do think however, that Nikon, as well as all other manufacturers of photo equipment, will have gear for professional productions available within a time frame of five years, and the 5DII as well as the GH1 have shown that in skilled hands, even these early generation cameras can be used to produce outstanding results. Unfortunately, they will mostly be used to produce mediocrity and garbage, also for the "professional" market, but that is no different from what's being made with other photographic equipment. It's simply the nature of the digital game.

    I remember very well when PageMaker was launched, with the notion that "Now, everybody can be a graphic designer". They can, and it shows.

    I do also believe that photographers with a certain kind of clients will either have to learn videography or hire someone who does it (as is frequently the case today), unless the photographer in question has so outstanding skills that he will survive on those alone, within his own exclusive, little niche. Video and photography are different art forms, but they are not like brain surgery and carpentry. They are rather closely related.

    When you can pull a full resolution photographic frame from a video sequence recorded on a RED, that is obviously an options that will appeal to many clients, and although the quality and composition will not be the same as if it was captured by a dedicated still photographer, the savings by having one, two or three people less to pay, is tempting to any bean counter, and as has been shown many times, bean counters and marketing gurus rule the corporate world. Unfortunately, many of them do so with a rather distorted view upon reality.

    The conclusion for me is that, even if the learning curve will be steep, and even if those who know the trade (video) will often achieve better results than a "converted stills photographer", the market decides what the market will buy. And the trend, at least among some of my clients, is that the market will buy more video. Not necessarily advanced stuff, and absolutely not high quality movies, but good enough to convey a simple message in an understandable way to a new generation of customers that has been raised in front of a TV with non-stop MTV and little else.

    Will the quality suffer? Yes, often, but by focusing on learning the skills properly and combining the technologies in the best possible way, I also believe that it's achievable to get results that are well above the future average. While most of us, at least those that we meet on this forum, would prefer to make great art, only a small part of the market is willing to pay for that. With internet as the most important communication channel, the trend is frequent updates, but lower quality. "Good enough" really is good enough most of the time. It is also important to remember that this convergence of technologies that more or less come from the same offspring, does give us some new creative possibilities. I would prefer to explore those possibilities rather than argue about the limitations.

    10 years ago, few photographers had much knowledge about digital processing of photos. That has changed. Other sides of this trade will change too. And although high-end photography may be affected later than the big masses, the changes will come, particularly on the equipment side. Cheap gear can be used for things today that you needed investments the size of a house to achieve just a few years ago. There's a reason why there are only three MF cameras left in the market. If those three manufacturers don't continue to innovate, they are history pretty soon as well.

    And to keep this slightly on topic; this is where I think Leica has done something right. Instead of making a traditional MF body, they have installed what we must assume is good MF quality into a form factor that is preferred by most photographers. Time will show if that's enough for Leica to succeed.

    Sorry for the long posts, but I do believe that there are changes ahead that are at least as big as the transition from film to digital, probably even more so. Believing that the transition from film to digital photography was it, simply doesn't hold enough water.
    Last edited by Jorgen Udvang; 10th August 2009 at 15:06.

  46. #496
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    I find the prospect of shooting video daunting. I will try, but I am full of trepidation.
    -bob
    It's fun at first ... then it gets boring. It requires a lot of time and dedication to follow through to the final product. Some people have the patience and appitude for it, and some don't.

    What's interesting about using the FF DSLRs is the use of lenses that deliver the full DOF experience compared to the smaller chip video cams. It's more like the big 35mm cine cameras.

  47. #497
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Convergence means simply this to me = Retirement.

    To me the art will be gone, time to go to sleep.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  48. #498
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    2,338
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    52

    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Good points on the difference between making motion and making stills - different world's and I have no interest in making crappy home videos - dont own a video camera think that they are silly toys..

    Re Line Pairs - I dont give a rats tail about Zeiss claimed nonsence - neither of these quoted lenses is going to give me movements my friend - which was the point of my post - intenet chatter gets very tiring when people pervert a discussion by focusing on a phrase and missing the woods for a a tree as they say.

    You get to a certain age (some of sooner some of us later) and you just dont want any more - you start wanting less...quality becomes more important and gimmicks become tiresome bumps in the road.

    I am pretty close to ditching all my MFD gear except for one back to use on an Alpa and an arTec - hand held MF is not for me.

  49. #499
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Fort Collins, Colorado
    Posts
    2,077
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    I find the prospect of shooting video daunting. I will try, but I am full of trepidation.
    -bob
    and you are a scientist Bob, as am I. I too am filled with trepidation about getting good at video.

    If you look at what is being produced with these video cameras by more normal people than professional videographers such as Uwe Steinmuller who is a pretty fair stills photographer you will see what I mean. He is getting pretty good at the basics but mastering the software like Final Cut Pro is a different b all of wax. Photoshop pales by comparison. And finally you have to rewire your brain to think like a videographer.

    Man I have enough issues with still photography

    Woody

  50. #500
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Dallas, TX
    Posts
    819
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    10 minutes on YouTube makes me wonder if we need anymore video devices. I'd rather see the R&D dSLR budgets spent on better sensors capable of greater DR, full 16-bit files, etc. In that regard the S2 might be a good thing. But I don't have $30k laying about, and even if I did, I doubt I spend it on an S2.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •