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Thread: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

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    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    I give in. I'm on my way to my local dealer to place my deposit on a pair of S2 bodies and one copy of each lens...
    See ....one positive post and the band wagon starts to load up. But they can t sell it by comparing it to the MF alternatives and making a "value proposition". It has to be based on a dream.....like Porsche . When I race home from the local Starbucks ..I am not bitching about the lack of cup holders or the abuse I take at the dealer. Its like comparing a Porsche to a Lexus. Both great cars but very different "value propositions" and customers.

    Now what if I could prove...that the S2 was as durable as a hockey puck . A camera for the adventure seeker. Jack would be perfect .....they could slap some mud on him and have him by his Jeep....try that with a 'blad. Or maybe we could try MR over at Luminous Landscape shooting the Moose walking on the ridge.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Conspicuous consumption is a pejorative term. Linking Leica products to 'conspicuous consumption' is a very insulting to both Leica and to those who buy Leica products.

    The simpe fact of the matter is that 'value' is not an absolute measure - it is a relative measure. The one company that seems to get continuously criticised for offering jewelry etc to 'conspicuous consumers' - is Leica - and yet anyone who has used the company's equipment in analogue or digital form knows very well how good it is.

    Leica doesn't make perfect anything - but Leica is entitled to charge whatever it sees fit for anything it makes, and people are entitled to buy whatever they wish to buy - without being insulted by meaningless 'tags'.

    Such labels are not helpful in promoting a friendly forum - perhaps instead of using satire I could have made the poits above - try as I might though I can never achieve pefection all the time.

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    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Peter

    Not sure if you are referring to my post in your comments . But I was being very serious and not at all disrespectful to Leica or anyone else. My initial post started with "conspicuous consumption will have nothing to do with the success of the S2" even if I am guilty from time to time of enjoying it. Rather it follows that regardless of the pricing that (1) leica needs to understand the consumers that could actually buy the product(for whatever reason) and (2) their marketing needs to bring out the value proposition.

    IMHO they have blown this to date (similar reasoning can be found in E Puts blog post).
    The S2 has the potential to create a new class of cameras and set the standard for quality and durability. The form and handling ,coupled with the weather sealed body and the MF image quality is unique. This needs to be substantiated and reenforced .

    The M series has this unique value proposition...its fun to use a rangefinder camera . I can make images that I wouldn t get with my DSLR and I could go on. But if I was doing a business like comparison ..I just couldn t pick a M8 ....too many better alternatives in auto focus DSLR . Its a waste of time to compare an M8 to say a D3 ...while they overlap in possible uses ..they are as different as a Porsche and a Lexus. Maybe the S2 can have this type of differentiation.

    The camera seems simply too expensive for a typical working pro and the economy is working against everyone. But I am not sure the product is even designed for the typical working pro. And I am absolutely sure that the S2 isn t a good choice for the "average " working pro.

    However there is a group of professionals that could make great use of the Leica S2 and it would be so clearly superior to other options ..then maybe some potential buyers might start to get it. My proposal is that leica adopt this group as the spokesmen and women for the value proposition. But and this is important (IMHO) .....they need to recognize that the money will be made from the well healed amateurs that wish to emulate professional results.

    Slight divergence in my post ..regarding price.....the concern is "will there be enough potential buyers that both see the value proposition and have the funds to follow through". Without a successful S2 , Leica will suffer and bring less great product to market. I care about that.

    Regarding criticizing Leica for IMHO pricing the product too high (hope I am wrong)......I have an exceptional investment in their product including a large number of R lenses. From my view ..that makes me important and a stakeholder in Leica s future. The way they handled the "end of the R" now that was disrespectful. A "half assed" leak to the LUF with no official statement from Leica.


    But then all this is just maybe slightly less than humble opinion.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Hi Roger,

    No my black comedy wan't aimed at you or anyone else in particular, rather at the notion of' 'conspicuous consumption' as an accusatory stab at those foolish enough to be considering the S2 etc etc etc Your observations regarding Leica's history - especially in relation to the R line and to a lessor extent the M8 are spot on.

    Some simple arithmetic defines Leica's relatively smal albeit important small target break-even regarding the S2 and gives me some hope that this fine company can survive and prosper - as like you I have significant investment in M lenses and paraphernalia.

    Regarding the R line management changes a couple of years ago - pretty much negated the confidence anyone had in the R solution that was promised and touted heavilly on this and other forums. This change of approach from Leica saw me exit the DMR and sell more than 10 lenses in the R line - to switch into Hassselblad - which then halved its prices a few months later...these are sunk costs - photography is a past- time for me and just fun - representing an insignificant proportion of the total discretionary outlay on fun I am fortunate to enjoy. To call me and other people like me conspicuous consumers - with all the associated implied criticism is a grave insult in my opinion - hence my black comedic response.

    The simple arithmetic is based on the assumption that Leica have invested $20M Euro in the S2 to date. At $20K per body - Leica would have to (over time) sell 1,000 bodies to break even. Assuming the average user bought 2 lenses @ 4.5K average - this would add a further $9M Euro in revenue.

    I think that (over time) there would be 1000 buyers of this camera - which in previous market conditions for MFD systems equated to around 10% of the annual market for new backs. Therefore I think that Leica has a decent chance of surviving.

    As for the S2 my benchmark is other DSLR type MF offers. I think that a minority of users - actually put the backs on a technical camera. Given the ergonomic advantage of a smaller lighter faster body - Leica may actually win more market share over time than many are expecting. As far as cost goes - Leica is no more expensive than other systems (where) 2 years ago - but offers many ergonomic advantages to those who thinK one can hand hold 40 megapixels.

    I make no apologies to anyone for responding to the notion of conspicuous consuption and its implict and heavy handed criticism of the company and the individuals who may buy the company's products. However - rest assured if i was having a go at someone directly I would use their name - directly.

    Kind regards
    Pete

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Who cares who consumes what, and at what price?

    Leica got the "jewelry" moniker because they turned serious gear into Jewlery with an endless parade of special editions, many of them meaningless excuses to gussy up a serious camera ... the latest of which is the white M8 and Safari editions. That's just a matter of taste in the stuff you buy ... but it tends to degrade it's serious functional history.

    Marketing wise, Leica has to aim the S2 at the Pro market, even if the Pro market isn't the real target. You don't sell a high-end funtional product to casual users by showing casual users wearing one to a social event.

    However, the notion of a mud covered S2 slung into the back of a beat-up Landrover Defender is in reality a humorous proposition. People look at used Leica gear with a magnifiying glass for any signs of use what-so-ever. At 50K for the S2 set, they'll probably start using an electron Microscope

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    All this comes to the point again and again:

    Will the S System be able to stand up against top MF systems from Phase and Hasselblad - quality wise and price wise.

    I tell you one thing - I would not mind to buy into the S System immediately if

    1) I would be convinced that Leica is really behind it and supprting it for at leas the next 10 years
    2) I could see an S3 and S4 (upcoming models) on the horizon - even in 5 - 8 years
    3) I could have a TS solution which is satisfying enough for me and coming close to a tech camera + digiback solution like Cambo WRS with P45+ and Schneider 35mm
    4) There would be support of this system in C1Pro or Lightroom.

    I would expect much easier handling, carrying etc of this camera system compared to existing MF systems. And I would expect some 60-80MP in one of the coming S3 or S4s ....

    It is as simple!

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    I think some of your points are unanswerable. After the launch of the S2 (some time after, at least several weeks, more likely several months, not immediately after), you might be able to judge for yourself if it will be successful. If it is, then I think that points 1) and 2) look good. 3) will be answered when the T/S lens is out, but keep in mind that it will just be the one lens, not a series. 4) is already known: Lightroom will support the S2 directly. The question is how well, since Lightroom is weak on white balance, sharpness and noise.
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Not sure if we discussed that in this thread - it was WRT full frame image circle on the new H3D2-60 in combination with the HCD28 lens.

    The answer is - have a look on the Hasselblad site and their documentation: all HCD lenses (28 and 35-90) will not deliver the full frame of the 60MP back - period!

    This is really unfortunate, as Hasselblad obviously made their FF decision some 3 years ago, when they did not know about the next generation sensor sizes, or simply were ignorant. So either there will be another "new" 28 lens which will support the larger image circle or simply Phase has a clear advantage here with their Mamiya solution and the P65+

    Also I can tell you that I tested Phocus - and of course I am not a very experienced user now after playing with it for several hours - but I find this SW on the level of C1Pro some 4 years ago - PERIOD!

    This is really not amusing - especially if one reads through all the nice stories behind and around Hasselblad!

    What finally counts for me is execution - and I do not see execution anymore in the Hasselblad camp - rather fighting competition and closing the camp

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Okay just wanted to add this in the mix.I did have a 45 minute conversation yesterday with a leica executive and mainly it was all about the S2 . I can't get into all the details but a couple things of note maybe worth bringing up. Data and samples are coming very soon so this will gives us more meat to discuss obviously on the S2. I maybe also be underestimating it's IQ and with that the cost of entry for the IQ. This remains to be seen and evaluated but you folks know I am a tough sell but I did feel better after I hung up the phone. If that means anything but we need more meat to play with and discuss here as well and obviously that has been lacking. Hopefully soon this data and images will hit the forum and i am on the short list to get that data up on the forum for our members.
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I maybe also be underestimating it's IQ and with that the cost of entry for the IQ.
    Actually I'm confident that the S2 system will beat a lot of (or maybe the most of) the MF lenses on a MF camera with a 39 or 40MP back (unless you crop down the S2 files to a 4:3 image format). If you use your digiback not just with MF lenses but also with Digtars or Rodenstock HRs you'll see how important very good glass is. Epecially regarding corner sharpness the smaller chip size is an advantage here IMO.
    Add some better ISO, (maybe) better and faster AF and (maybe) better usability (handling wise not necessarily workflow wise) compared to a MF camera ... and the S2 truly has some strengths.
    Whether this will be enough to establish a successful system remains to be seen.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Agreed Thomas if it has that horsepower it could succeed. Obviously everything else that supports this effort needs to be in check as well but hopefully we will learn a lot more in the coming weeks. Not a big fan of the 3:2 shooting ratio since going 4:3 but I have bounced around on that for many years on image format size.
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Not sure if we discussed that in this thread - it was WRT full frame image circle on the new H3D2-60 in combination with the HCD28 lens.

    The answer is - have a look on the Hasselblad site and their documentation: all HCD lenses (28 and 35-90) will not deliver the full frame of the 60MP back - period!

    This is really unfortunate, as Hasselblad obviously made their FF decision some 3 years ago, when they did not know about the next generation sensor sizes, or simply were ignorant. So either there will be another "new" 28 lens which will support the larger image circle or simply Phase has a clear advantage here with their Mamiya solution and the P65+

    Also I can tell you that I tested Phocus - and of course I am not a very experienced user now after playing with it for several hours - but I find this SW on the level of C1Pro some 4 years ago - PERIOD!

    This is really not amusing - especially if one reads through all the nice stories behind and around Hasselblad!

    What finally counts for me is execution - and I do not see execution anymore in the Hasselblad camp - rather fighting competition and closing the camp
    Several hours with Phocus and you're expert enough to make declaritive statements? Trust me, you are NOT. Period!

    Execution? What do you mean by execution? Please clarify.

    This is execution that benefits me:

    Hasselblad has continuously upgraded my H3D-II performance with software and firmware improvements. Not that others haven't ... just that they have!

    They have offered a T/S device that uses my existing lenses should I opt for that. They didn't promise it and not deliver it. They delivered it. Period.

    They have improved the performance of the camera itself without making me buy another body. The focus accuracy is improved. The ISO performance has improved. Power use has improved. They added the ability to use shutter delay to aid in slower shutter hand-held work ... which actually works! And so on, and on, and on.

    I had a Mamiya 645 and hated the camera so much I got out of it at a loss. A declarative statement based on a lot more than a few hours playing around with it ... more like real jobs over a year of heavy use. Multiple batteries, no ability to swap finders, shooting delay, slower AF than the H camera, no central leaf shutter lenses as promised forever . IMHO, despite the H camera being over a decade old now, it's still a better camera. Period.

    Fighting competition? You mean making competitive products at a more reasonable price point? Sounds good to me.

    Mamiya 28 an advantage due to full frame coverage? Not the one I tried on my Mamiya. Soft in the corners even on a crop frame DB ... can't imagine it on a 60 meg back.

    The Hassey 28 was made so people that needed a wide angle solution for then existing 31 meg back @ 1.3X crop and 39 meg back @ 1.1X crop could have one THEN, not years later. Whether they bring out a FF 28 will probably depend on how popular the 60 back is eventually.

    If by "execution" you mean IQ ... I've used them all quite a bit (except the Sinar Backs), and don't see one iota of difference, just differences in philosphy on how to get there.

    BTW, the nice stories around Hasselblad are because it delivers. At least for me it does. Relentlessly and reliably. Period!

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    Workshop Member Woody Campbell's Avatar
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    We really ought to give this thread back to the S2, but a couple of thoughts on Hasselblad and raw converters:

    Raw converters to three things: (1) sort and grade photos (ie photo editing in the editorial sense), (2) convert raw files to usable files, and (3) permit the user to apply image adjustments to the conversion. I've spent a lot of time with LR, Phocus and C1. Both Phocus and C1 are poor at (1); LR is brilliant. Both Phocus and Ci make remarkably good conversions (2) however you judge them - they find stuff in the files that you can't believe is there; LR is only very good at conversions. In terms of the sophistication of (3) - image adjustments, I rank C1 first, LR second and Phocus third. But balanced against this is the fact that Hasselblad produces brilliant color without much fuss. My process is to make "centered" conversions in Phocus, convert to 16-bit tiff and carry on in Lr if necessary (it usually isn't).

    As far as the camera is concerned I've got a H3D 39 (not a II) that a purchased for a decent price 18 months ago; I've been thrilled at Hasselblad's ongoing support for this camera, which has been improved substantially during this period through firmware updates; I've been thrilled at Hasselblad's service, which has provided 2-day turn around (not including shipping time so 4-5 days altogether); and I'm thrilled that I can use a large range of excellent (in some cases brilliant) V glass, glass that Hasselblad now supports with DAC corrections in a recent firmware update.

    The tilt shift adapter is another interesting aspect of the system; I've had one for a month or so and when I get a chance I'll post a mini-review on this forum.

    I've suspected for some time that you don't see many Hasselblad shooters on these forums (at least compared to the number of cameras out there) because they are all out shooting and don't have a lot of technical issues.

    finally on open vs. closed system: I can put my Hasselblad back on my Horseman body - in that sense it's open - but I can't put a Phase back on my Hasselblad. Are there any shooters on this forum who are using a non-Phase back on a Phase One or Mamaya body? If the answer is "none" it what sense is the Phase system "open" or more to the point why does it matter?

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Folks just FYI i got word that I will have specs coming today so we can chew on what they are and get a better idea of what is under the hood. I think that is something we can look at and get some better idea of where we as individuals are at with regards to understanding it better and as a forum able to discuss on those specs from Leica in a more less speculative light.
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    That is good news Guy. I look forward to seeing the specs. I am also anxious to see proof photos from a production S2 although that may not happen today. I fully expect initial reviews from well placed photographers/reviewers to start showing up in the next few weeks - certainly before the launch date which isn't that far away now.

    Mark

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    They are up on a new thread. Photos should be coming soon
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Great, Guy. Thanks for posting.

    Noticed that ISO is 80-1250 (those odd conventions again, like on the M8). So it should cover the lower end for some shooters, but looks a tad short of original target on the high end. Will have to wait to see the images to see how clean things are at 1250. Not picking nits here, just commenting on what they are posting now that it is production.

    Looking forward to images. Did they say if they will be available as full resolution raw samples or just processed JPEGs? Time to get monitors recalibrated (if folks do not do that regularly now).

    LJ

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Yeah, I had hoped for ISO 100-1600, but I am a lot happier with 80-1250 than the M8's 160-2500. 2500 is more or less useless anyway, except for grungy B&W, but 160 is just too high on sunny days. Actually, I could get used to 80, I suppose. A little leeway on the bottom end is a good thing.
    Last edited by carstenw; 14th August 2009 at 13:07.
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Just got the specs myself.

    We'll have to see how the pixel binning turns out and whether it allows for higher ISOs at lower MPs.

    The ISO range is interesting. The prototypes had "normal" ISO ranges (100, 200, 400, 800, 1600). Seeing 80 is nice from a studio perspective, though.

    Some questions answered, many remain. Now we just wait for images.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    We'll have to see how the pixel binning turns out and whether it allows for higher ISOs at lower MPs.
    David,
    Maybe I missed something, but nowhere in these published specs does it mention "pixel binning for higher ISOs at lower MPs". I know this has been speculated and discussed, but if it is real, why does Leica not mention it? Curious.

    LJ

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Ya know we talked about it yesterday too about the pixel binning. Not sure why those are not in the specs.
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Well the specs don't really give us any news. They confirmed a few things, but we will have to wait to see some real images. Especially about the ISO part. 1250 can be good or bad. We will see in thex next few days. I only really hope Leica gives us some real images and not some small jpgs and some 100% crops were you can't tell how much work has been done.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    I agree we need to see raws and play around with them.
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    That is another part I am really worried about. Lightroom as final raw software. Don't get me wrong I love it as sorting and final editing tool. I do 80% of my work in Lightroom, but when it comes to the final conversion from raw to TIFF, there is only Capture One or Raw Developer. I would prefer RD, but it's mac only so no option. So I am left with C1 which I hate and love. I mean the interface I think is sad, I think the speed sucks, the layout is **** and even after using it since it came out I hate the program, but the TIFFs just look better, I mean High ISO looks terrible in lightroom, it looks more like pixelated dark stuff compared to fine "film" grain noise from C1. Sad that Adobe can't do better or some people really think Lightroom files look better :Q.

    ( A small note: I use C1 only with minimal color noise reduction and NONE lum. noise. I still think if you leave on noise reduction in C1 the file looks even worse than in Lightroom. Every smaller detail is getting mushed. RawDeveloper is another story)


    So bottom line I would have wished Leica had thought of a better solution than Lightroom, but perhaps Lightroom 3 isn't to far off and Adobe actually worked on the whole processing engine. Well or not ^^

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    I am just not the biggest Lightroom fan. So this part does bug me. I guess since it is a DNG that C1 may see them but you may have to buy a ICC profile software package to create a ICC profile to use in C1 if that is something you wanted to try. I think they are around 500 to 700 dollars and a real PITA to do.
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    I would think that Leica worked a little more closely than most with Adobe as they did with Phase and the M8. I find that Aperture does a better job at converting my M8 files than LR but that LR is better with my Canon files.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I am just not the biggest Lightroom fan. So this part does bug me. I guess since it is a DNG that C1 may see them but you may have to buy a ICC profile software package to create a ICC profile to use in C1 if that is something you wanted to try. I think they are around 500 to 700 dollars and a real PITA to do.
    If that would work then the whole S System becomes much more interesting for me! I need to be able to work with C1Pro in order to love a camera/system, because this is what became my quasi standard

    So let's hope!

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    The S2 uses the open DNG-standard - and C1 supports DNG!? What happens when somebody (even from Solms) would deliver a non-official S2-color-profile for C1? Would C1 still detect it as a file it is not allowed to open?

    I wonder what happens to all the know-how that was invested into the internal JPG-engine, if it really works as well, wouldn't it possible to transfer the algorithms into a PS-plugin?

    I love the conversion quality of C1 but hate it's instability and their unwillingness to improve certain bugs.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    C1 supports third party profiles.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Is a profile all that is needed to support a camera as well as the Phase backs, or are there other pieces needed for that level of integration?
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    I think Adobe is providing tools for those interested which allow for custom profiling into ACR5 - which is common to Lightroom and CS4 - you can build any 'look' you like.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Is a profile all that is needed to support a camera as well as the Phase backs, or are there other pieces needed for that level of integration?
    Each Phase back has several profiles for different lighting conditions and also has profiles for each Phase lens being used.

    I was told the S2 will work with Aperture and LR and they are working with Adobe on there plugin for it.

    For C1 just like any other profile outside the Phase backs it is like one generic profile. You could with profiling software create them for different lighting.

    But here is a issue I am just not sure about is C1 actually seeing the S2 for one and than if it does than you would have to select your built profile do a select all and apply it or make a preset. But the just seeing it part is my real question.

    The one big issue I see for the S2 is noise and high ISO . LR is not known to be a good high ISO raw processor at least every camera i have tried C1 had much better noise
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    All this comes to the point again and again:

    Will the S System be able to stand up against top MF systems from Phase and Hasselblad - quality wise and price wise.

    I tell you one thing - I would not mind to buy into the S System immediately if

    1) I would be convinced that Leica is really behind it and supprting it for at leas the next 10 years
    2) I could see an S3 and S4 (upcoming models) on the horizon - even in 5 - 8 years
    3) I could have a TS solution which is satisfying enough for me and coming close to a tech camera + digiback solution like Cambo WRS with P45+ and Schneider 35mm
    4) There would be support of this system in C1Pro or Lightroom.

    I would expect much easier handling, carrying etc of this camera system compared to existing MF systems. And I would expect some 60-80MP in one of the coming S3 or S4s ....

    It is as simple!
    Peter

    If I understand it correctly, Adobe has done the lion's share of the work for raw conversion for the S2. Not just unwrapping the DNG shell but true optimization. If this is indeed true both ACR (CS4) and Lightroom will have the lead for this camera.

    As to C1 Pro, given the falling out between Phase and Leica it is doubtful that Phase will spend a nanosecond supporting the S2. I understand that the newest versions of C1 and C1 Pro have dropped some features for the M8 and C1 was originally shipped with the M8 as the standard raw conversion software. Given that Leica and Phase are now serious competitors in the MF end of things Leica will have to have a partner like Adobe to be able to do optimized Raw conversions.

    Woody

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by georgl View Post
    The S2 uses the open DNG-standard - and C1 supports DNG!?
    Not. C1 supports only some specific sub-types of DNG. Whether the S2's DNG's are one of those - we'll just have to wait and see.

    Sandy

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    We will have to wait to see. However, Phase One is not just a camera/back company, but a serious software company too. While they may not be able or interested in supporting every single RAW format for the various cameras, it still seems to be in their better (maybe not best) interest to make efforts to support the top end stuff if they can. If there are very proprietary formats or profiles that just take too much effort to work with, they may be less enthusiastic or up to date in their efforts. That is just my opinion. I would expect that they will support the S2, at least in some generic way at minimum. Maybe not the finest tuned profiles and stuff, but I just do not see them walking away from what could still be an important part of their customer base. If folks have Canons, Nikons, Sonys and maybe Leaf and Phase backs, in addition to a brand new S2, Phase One would want to keep those customers, rather than lose them to Adobe or Aperture or whatever as folks prefer to streamline their workflow with one really good app. LR may not be the best, but if it could handle everything one shoots with, it may be a preferred choice. So why would Phase One want to risk losing those customers just because they may also shoot an S2? I think in the end, Phase will support the S2, maybe generically, but with a DNG format, it is going to be hard for Phase to completely ignore the S2 and anything else from Leica, despite they're not working together anymore. Just my thoughts.

    LJ

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    LJ, I specifically don't think that Phase One sees it as being in their interest to support the high-end stuff. D3x and 1Ds3 will probably be as high as they go, for non-Phase products. There may be some rudimentary S2 support, but not what S2 owners will want, which is to get the same or better results compared to Phase backs.
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by georgl View Post
    I love the conversion quality of C1 but hate it's instability and their unwillingness to improve certain bugs.
    4.8.2 has been extremely stable for nearly all of our customers (assuming they are using a supported computer and have used our instructions to ensure a clean installation). If you're experience does not line up with this I'd encourage you to PM or call me and maybe we can get you fixed up.

    Capture One 4 Pro has been out for only about 11 months now and has made incredible progress during that time. To say they are "unwilling" to fix certain bugs strikes me as unfair. They have eliminated very nearly all of the general bugs and have added countless little tweaks (both visible and behind the scenes). If this is how far they've come in 11 months I can't wait to see the software in another 6 months. That said: I do sympathize; specific bugs that affect your particular workflow can be very frustrating. But there is every reason to think they will be fixed.

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    Last edited by dougpeterson; 18th August 2009 at 13:18.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Carsten,
    I understand that sentiment. It just seems like Phase would be moving itself to become that "closed" system that they have sort of railed against in the past if they do not work their very popular app to support the gear that many photographers use. I would bet there may be more Canon, Nikon, Sony, and Leica users that work on Phase One C1 than Phase back owners. Why would they want to lose all those folks, just to dedicate their efforts only to their backs and to not support other systems as they have been trying to do for some time. If they pride themselves in having a really good app with great algorithms and hopefully more speed to convert files shot by a variety of folks, why abandon that business and revenue stream? If Phase One stopped supporting the next generation of Nikon and Canon and Sony cameras, they will suddenly be strapped with an even more expensive app to sell to fewer customers. They took a lot of time to build it, build a following, and create a tool that many photogs like to use. If they shut the door on all those folks just because they see them as competitors to their own MF line-up, they are essentially closing themselves off. If that becomes the case, then Adobe, Aperture, RD and some others will become the preferred defacto raw developers. I have DPP for my Canons for example, and it does a very nice job, but I do not use it hardly ever, since it does not handle my M8 files or stuff others send me to look at and maybe tweak. Phase One C1 does a very nice job on files from many cameras, giving up that base group would probably diminish interest in them, just as Phocus is pretty much a Hassy only app. It may do a great job with those files, just as DPP does with Canon files, but it is not robust enough to become something one goes to for all their work, which is what Phase had been claiming it was aiming to do.

    Let's wait to see just how good or not the S2 files are straight out of the camera and with simple, but good raw conversion. LR is not my choice as a converter, though I do use ACR (same engine and stuff) for a lot of utility work that usually get post process tweaking in PS anyway. I think LR is mediocre, but because it covers a very broad range of cameras files, and it has DAM, folks like to use it. If they will be driven to use it more because Phase stops supporting the cameras they shoot, that is not good for Phase....unless they really want to become more closed.

    LJ

    P.S. Further, what will happen to the techs and folks that support photogs at the pro level? Most of those guys become C1 gurus and magicians of sorts. Will busy pros have to start looking for camera file specific techs that use only the software that supports those files? That will create a bigger nightmare in an already tough environment.
    Last edited by LJL; 18th August 2009 at 13:28.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    [QUOTE=LJL;126968]Carsten,
    I understand that sentiment. It just seems like Phase would be moving itself to become that "closed" system that they have sort of railed against in the past if they do not work their very popular app to support the gear that many photographers use. /QUOTE]

    Well, there is a word for it. Hypocrisy. Phase has never supported the medium format digital backs of its competitors in Capture One. Canon and Nikon, OTOH, make DSLRs, which are not considered direct competitors to Phase One's backs. When and if Nikon or Canon produces a larger sensor camera that is a direct threat to Phase backs, I can assure that Phase's support will come to a screeching halt.
    I don't fault them for doing this; this is business, not a T-Group. I fault them for being phonies about it.
    Last edited by hcubell; 18th August 2009 at 17:39.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    We will have to wait to see. However, Phase One is not just a camera/back company, but a serious software company too. While they may not be able or interested in supporting every single RAW format for the various cameras, it still seems to be in their better (maybe not best) interest to make efforts to support the top end stuff if they can. If there are very proprietary formats or profiles that just take too much effort to work with, they may be less enthusiastic or up to date in their efforts. That is just my opinion. I would expect that they will support the S2, at least in some generic way at minimum. Maybe not the finest tuned profiles and stuff, but I just do not see them walking away from what could still be an important part of their customer base. If folks have Canons, Nikons, Sonys and maybe Leaf and Phase backs, in addition to a brand new S2, Phase One would want to keep those customers, rather than lose them to Adobe or Aperture or whatever as folks prefer to streamline their workflow with one really good app. LR may not be the best, but if it could handle everything one shoots with, it may be a preferred choice. So why would Phase One want to risk losing those customers just because they may also shoot an S2? I think in the end, Phase will support the S2, maybe generically, but with a DNG format, it is going to be hard for Phase to completely ignore the S2 and anything else from Leica, despite they're not working together anymore. Just my thoughts.

    LJ
    LJ

    this is unfortunately the issue! If you talk about MFDBs from whatever vendor (Hasselblad, Leaf, Sinar, etc) so far there was and is NO support in C1. Because in this area Phase obviously sees clear competition!

    For the S2, as this is a clear competitor now, there will in my opinion be no native support in C1. Maybe one can generate their own profiles but this is not the way I like to go - so for me this is a clear exclusion.

    It may be true that Leica working together with Adobe will bring great profiles and converters in the Adobe products (PS and LR) but this has to be seen. I already used LR and also Aperture for years but now I am back at C1 and I love C1. So hard for one like me to step "back" to LR or Aperture.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Well, given how much attention Leica is giving the jpeg engine in their marketing, maybe they are confident that the files don't require as much tweaking as other medium format back makers? A lot of this is philosophy. From what I gather, Hasselblad and Phase emphasize getting very good out of the box images and the files as you open them in C1 and Phocus have already had a number of corrections applied. You might be able to turn most of those off, but they are applied as default. Sinar on the other hand, does almost nothing to their files out of the camera, and so while they are perhaps more raw than other raw files, they are like a blank canvas. This has an advantage in that you have complete control, but a disadvantage in that the files tend to look less than perfect out of the back.

    If Leica is paying so much attention on jpeg, then they are clearly working on optimizing output directly in the camera. This would mean that they might need to rely on dedicated software less than some of the other MFDB players. This makes some sense too, as Leica has been burned in the past by third party partners. It makes sense they would do everything in their power to make the files come out of the camera as optimized as possible. Surely, the RAW files will allow you to turn off all the adjustments and noise reduction, curves etc, but it would make sense to me if the files right out of the S2 require very little RAW adjustment.
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Richardson View Post
    Well, given how much attention Leica is giving the jpeg engine in their marketing, maybe they are confident that the files don't require as much tweaking as other medium format back makers? A lot of this is philosophy. From what I gather, Hasselblad and Phase emphasize getting very good out of the box images and the files as you open them in C1 and Phocus have already had a number of corrections applied. You might be able to turn most of those off, but they are applied as default. Sinar on the other hand, does almost nothing to their files out of the camera, and so while they are perhaps more raw than other raw files, they are like a blank canvas. This has an advantage in that you have complete control, but a disadvantage in that the files tend to look less than perfect out of the back.

    If Leica is paying so much attention on jpeg, then they are clearly working on optimizing output directly in the camera. This would mean that they might need to rely on dedicated software less than some of the other MFDB players. This makes some sense too, as Leica has been burned in the past by third party partners. It makes sense they would do everything in their power to make the files come out of the camera as optimized as possible. Surely, the RAW files will allow you to turn off all the adjustments and noise reduction, curves etc, but it would make sense to me if the files right out of the S2 require very little RAW adjustment.
    I do agree to this, as long as the RAW files (and I am ONLY interested in RAWs) come out of the camera without the need for many tweaking

    Albeit, I never ever saw and used any DSLR nor a MFDB irregardless of the manufacturer, where I did not need to apply a number of corrections before converting the RAWs into TIFFs for further development in PS.

    Maybe my workflow is not the common one, but for Fine Art Landscape I think that there are no other options if you want to get highest quality for large fine art prints. I want the TIFFs which I import into PS be already optimized and this optimization I can do currently best in C1, just because of the clever combination and availability of the tools. If the same would be possible from LR or Aperture, I would not mind using these, but all my experiences I had over the past years tell me that this is not the case and C1 is clearly leading the secenery

    So we need to wait and see what we really get from Leica .....

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    In the end each digital camera I have owned before offered a software solution to convert its images. Some more compfortable, some less, but after geting used to it one could work. C1 is nice, but IMO its not the only usable software in the world.
    So I dont think we have to be afraid of getting a usable software for the S2 as well.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    In the end each digital camera I have owned before offered a software solution to convert its images. Some more compfortable, some less, but after geting used to it one could work. C1 is nice, but IMO its not the only usable software in the world.
    So I dont think we have to be afraid of getting a usable software for the S2 as well.
    Your view, ok!

    But I have a different view on that. You know, I am getting so tired of always getting comfortable with a new SW and I have now a great workflow developed for me - and Leica always offered C1 to their products - and suddenly they start competition with Phase and all things get bad

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Some more info. I'll assume it's true;

    14 bit
    Moire correction in camera, yes - but for jpegs only, NOT DNG. Begs the question....
    No binning
    No AF microadjust by photog possible - calibrated in lens at factory
    1/2 ISO steps

    etc

    Last post, this thread

    http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/top.../0#lastmessage

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    14bit ADCs are the standard and have little to do with the 16bit internal image processing that is written in the technical specs (DMR/M8/S2/Phase/Hassi).

    There are 16bit ADCs for the linear CCDs used scanners, because they have a higher DR which can actually use 16bits. You can sample as many bits as you want, you need data to fill them...

    http://www.analog.com/en/audiovideo-...cts/index.html

    I have no idea what they want with the internal JPG-processing, maybe it's a technology important for "dentists" or some M9-amateurs (which will use S2-technology) but it's simply not a professional solution for demanding work.

    But moire has to be removed by the user, because selective (and therefore not affecting the other parts of the image) recognition is easier for the human brain than for any software, no surprise here - just like in all other pro-systems.

    "AF-microadjust" is a "feature" to compensate for higher production tolerances and less testing - let the customer do the work and we have an additional feature for marketing...

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    YESSSSS 1/2 ISO steps! I always found 1/3 steps very fiddly and pointless in real-world situations, and very annoying when combined with 1/2 stop aperture and shutter speeds. In a studio you can just fiddle a little with the light or something.
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    I do agree on AF MA - if factory QC is tight enough and lens's can stay in calibration over time.

    Jpegs - agree. Maybe quickly sorting images - or accommodating the "carry-it-as-status-symbol" vs true photo enthusiast market. The M8.2 does have an S mode after all.

    Agree moire removal needs to under photog's direct control in PP.

    That said, am curious as how folks will approach it lacking dedicated PP SW a la C1 and Phocus. Never had to try and use LR etc for moire removal, though I do understand there are some 3rd party plug-ins around and various painting/masking techniques one can try in PS, etc.
    Last edited by robmac; 19th August 2009 at 10:55.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Jpegs
    ... for fast and good balanced preview in the studio to show to the art director...

    That said, am curious as how folks will approach it lacking dedicated PP SW a la C1 and Phocus
    basically true. But in reality the moire tool in C1 sucks... it's actually completely useless. I remove moire all the time selectively on layers in Photoshop...

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    good point on the jpegs - assuming the processing is up to snuff

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