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Thread: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    LJ, I understand your point and it's certainly got validity. I suspect the same discussion is going on at Leica right now. It's a tough call anyway you slice it. I had this same discussion with my partners on our last condo development which was completed just as the market tanked. Some wanted to lower prices below cost just to move units. Others (me included) wanted to mothball the project, pay the carrying costs and wait for things to improve. With the benefit of hindsight (almost two years worth) they were right and I was wrong. If I were Leica I'd try to move this kit at cost or even at a small per unit loss. I'd speculate that, even doing that, the price would still be very high.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    David, that may be a compassionate way to look at things, but Leica, just like the rest of us, are trying to exist in this crappy economical climate. So, you are correct, that one cannot fault them for not predicting the present conditions, but they can be faulted for not adjusting their pricing and sales plan to better reflect those conditions. They have seen this developing just as long as customers, competitors, and potential customer clients have seen it. If one looks at recovery trends, whether they think they are optimistic or not, things look like a long slow climb up, and cost consciousness is going to be a new mantra for quite a while for a lot of folks....even those that may have the ability to cover these costs. Personally, I think they should try to flood the market with bodies at a much more reasonable cost, and make up some margin over time with lens sales. The $23K price for the S2 alone is just over the top, in my thinking.

    LJ
    Well I don't think this market is 'floodable'. One thing that IS for certain, is that if you sell things for a loss, you go bust.

    My thinking on this is that they aren't going to sell very many at any cost that the average photographer will be able to afford - if they aren't going to sell very many, they need margin.

    If it costs 10,000 to make and market . . . .
    if you sell it for 11,000 you have to sell 10 times as many as if you sell it for 20,000. I simply don't believe that the price for kit like this is that sensitive.

    If their sales target really is 1000 per annum worldwide, then I would have said that they'll walk it. I'm aware of photographers who'll buy it just to see, I'm also aware of plenty of well heeled amateurs who can get it . . . and then there are the collectors who'll buy them and put 'em on the shelf.

    It's beautiful, cool and exclusive, and it has the red dot - if it works it'll sell.

    It may not sell to working photographers and the average gentleman photographer like me, but it'll sell.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    LJ, I understand your point and it's certainly got validity. I suspect the same discussion is going on at Leica right now. It's a tough call anyway you slice it. I had this same discussion with my partners on our last condo development which was completed just as the market tanked. Some wanted to lower prices below cost just to move units. Others (me included) wanted to mothball the project, pay the carrying costs and wait for things to improve. With the benefit of hindsight (almost two years worth) they were right and I was wrong. If I were Leica I'd try to move this kit at cost or even at a small per unit loss. I'd speculate that, even doing that, the price would still be very high.
    David - the difference is that they haven't made them yet.
    Much better than selling them for a loss would be to shut down the lines and call it a day.

    As you say - even if they did sell for a loss the price would be very high. There may be a limited market, but what small market there is ain't likely to be that price sensitive - If you want it and you've got that kind of disposable income, then you'll buy it.

    I would suggest that they really don't have the facilities to make that many anyway, which is another nail in the coffin of 'flooding the market'.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    The H3DII-39 with 80mm lens and VAT is 16100. There is no price given without the lens. I don't want to get into whether the lenses are equivalent, so mentally deduct a little for the lens. The S2 is 16000. I would say that the prices are extremely close, with the Hasselblad being a little cheaper. Leica always said that they would be competitive with similar products. I think they have delivered that.

    Another issue is whether the price is realistic. It is out of my reach, but that is not hard
    But for the S2 you then have to buy lenses. You just can't spin these types of numbers. I'll also be willing to lay money that getting expedited service with the Hasselblad is either included or a tiny fraction of the price Leica want (and if not it will be soon, they are very savy), plus they're universal in rental shops. Those last two matter more to pro's than even the first.
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Jono,
    I agree that they will sell....maybe not to the market they claimed to have targeted so much, but the others you mention will buy. That will not a success make, in my opinion. If they are fortunate to sell a body and lens, maybe two lenses, to that group, it is done. On the other hand, were they to sell the bodies nearer cost, they could get more into the market, and make up ground on the lenses. There is no other option for lenses to work on the S2, so a buyer is locked in. If the body were more affordable to those that may actually use it, there would still be good lens sales for them. The lens prices are not too far beyond what folks sort of expect from Leica, and if they deliver, as expected, there will be folks wanting those optics.

    I understand your point about selling for margin, but I think that should be applied more to the lenses, and not the body at this point, but that is just my thinking on this. Fair to say, more disappointment on my part, as I was seriously thinking about the S2 to become a serious system for my needs, but at nearly $75K to get in (couple of bodies plus the glass), it is too much for me. If the price were closer to $45-50k for the same two bodies and all the glass, it would be a much more realistic consideration in my mind. Leica could still charge full fare for the glass, as it may really be worth it, but the bodies are most likely going to be used and replaced more often, so they need to be more affordable. Again, just my thinking on this. I understand your perspective, but remain disheartened by Leica's chosen scheme. It more or less worked for the M8, but there was a huge installed lens base and alternatives to help fuel the drive for the body. That is not the case with the S2.

    LJ

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    I dont post to this board often. Mostly because there usually is another member who says what i'm thinking in a much more eloquent way.

    But today. Im pissed.

    As a photographer who makes his living primarily shooting with M cameras I need Leica to stay in business. To remain strong, healthy, (and most of all) able to service my cameras and lenses.

    So when i see that a fully blown out S2 system is going to cost 50k or so. And then i read that the S2 is 'the focus' for the company in the future.

    I just shake my head. Maybe it is time to really give those zf lenses a go on a d3x. Not because the S2 wont be great. Just because, (and i pray its not) - it might be the anchor to finally sink an already leaky ship.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    I understand your point about selling for margin, but I think that should be applied more to the lenses, and not the body at this point, but that is just my thinking on this. Fair to say, more disappointment on my part, as I was seriously thinking about the S2 to become a serious system for my needs
    HI LJ
    Of course I also understand your point of view, one must also consider what capacity they actually have for making the camera - If they can only make 1000 a year, there isn't much point in trying to sell 5000.

    I also understand that there are a lot of people in your position who are actively disappointed with the price. I KNEW I wasn't going to buy one, not because I don't want one (I do), or even because I can't afford it (which I shouldn't), but because it wouldn't really suit what I shoot. So, of course, disappointment isn't part of the equation for me, and I wasn't spending my time dreaming of it being affordable.

    But the streets of our towns are full of cars which cost twice as much as your two body system - when a decent BMW 5 series would be just as comfortable/fast/roomy etc.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    Jono,
    I agree that they will sell....maybe not to the market they claimed to have targeted so much, but the others you mention will buy. That will not a success make, in my opinion. If they are fortunate to sell a body and lens, maybe two lenses, to that group, it is done. On the other hand, were they to sell the bodies nearer cost, they could get more into the market, and make up ground on the lenses. There is no other option for lenses to work on the S2, so a buyer is locked in. If the body were more affordable to those that may actually use it, there would still be good lens sales for them. The lens prices are not too far beyond what folks sort of expect from Leica, and if they deliver, as expected, there will be folks wanting those optics.

    I understand your point about selling for margin, but I think that should be applied more to the lenses, and not the body at this point, but that is just my thinking on this. Fair to say, more disappointment on my part, as I was seriously thinking about the S2 to become a serious system for my needs, but at nearly $75K to get in (couple of bodies plus the glass), it is too much for me. If the price were closer to $45-50k for the same two bodies and all the glass, it would be a much more realistic consideration in my mind. Leica could still charge full fare for the glass, as it may really be worth it, but the bodies are most likely going to be used and replaced more often, so they need to be more affordable. Again, just my thinking on this. I understand your perspective, but remain disheartened by Leica's chosen scheme. It more or less worked for the M8, but there was a huge installed lens base and alternatives to help fuel the drive for the body. That is not the case with the S2.

    LJ
    My thinking exactly.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    I guess they did the math and figured they had enough Sultans, Princes and potentates to sell 1,000 units. In this economic environment taking a $50,000 flyer on a new system does not make business sense for anyone. I'm not sure at this point the market needs another MF system unless it was a 'game changer' which in a recession like this probably the only game changer that would count would be it costs as much as a Canon.

    The M digital still occupies a unique market segment and probably will continue to for the near future at least but it seems every-time Leica ventures into the SLR market they get their head handed to them.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    I may be the odd man out here, but for a little company to engineer the development and tool up for an annual production run of only 1000 units, with manufacturing in Europe, these prices look amazing to me. If the average buyer spends $50k on their S2 kit, that's $50M in revenue; a pittance in the grand scheme of things.
    I agree 100% and admire Leica for attempting this project... It's kind of sad to read the comments in this forum (and others) trashing the system already...

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    My thinking exactly.
    You seem to be assuming that they can make enough to be able to do this. It's not a great idea to sell bodies cheap (which you can't make enough of) as a loss leader for lenses (which you can't make enough of either).

    If you find you've miscalculated, and you can't sell the bodies at a profit, and therefore you aren't selling the lenses either . . . well, that might be a time to drop the price.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hank Graber View Post
    I guess they did the math and figured they had enough Sultans, Princes and potentates to sell 1,000 units. In this economic environment taking a $50,000 flyer on a new system does not make business sense for anyone.
    Nor does spending $20,000 if you already have a kit which works and you aren't doing the turnover.

    On the other hand, if you're a truck driver working for yourself, you're going to have to pay twice this much for a truck.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Leica, as expected, priced the S2 using the M8/DMR model. Old habits are hard to break (assuming you even want to break them), the KoolAid is freshly mixed in Solms and this one's obviously a strong batch.

    They'll likely sell their target 1000 units to the well-monied Leica faithful - the expected price justification from some is starting to intermingle with the shock from the rest on LUF already.

    However, that 1000 units WON'T be to the 10% of the typical MF market they spoke of. Those folks are just shaking their heads - as they're unwilling, especially in today's world, to take a Solms-derived time travel trip back to 2007-2008 MFDB pricing - especially for a new entrant with an iffy (digital) new-model intro, S&S history, etc.

    The majority of the actual buyers of the S2 at these $$$ will never have been in the market for a Hassy or Phamiya. However, now that Leica has an SLR back in the game and it happens to have a > 24x36mm sensor, they will become Leica-specific MF customers. In short, they won't be stealing share, but creating a small, niche market that happens to own what could be described as either an MF camera or a large DSLR depending on your mood and ego.

    A handful of 'superstar' pros may acquire one to play with, but it will be one of many high-end systems they own - the bulk of which will derive the bulk of their revenue-generating work. As to the service such folks will receive - it's of little concern. If you're public profile is high enough, premium white-glove swap-out, etc service is a given from ANY vendor who's not an utter idiot.

    Had Solms swapped the Kool-Aid for some Red Bull and looked fwd instead of backward at Leica 'tradition' (one of the great hazards of having a CEO/Owner who is one of the faithful), things might have been VERY, VERY different - assuming word got around that their service and support measured up. This was a chance, (very) arguably THE chance, for Leica (technology aside) to remodel itself and it's business habits -- and it stuck to the formula.

    The trick will be as to whether or not, as Hassy and Phase (and Nikon, Canon and Sony) keep lowering the price/performance bar if that 1000 unit market (which will top-out in body sales relatively quickly in terms of years and units) will be enough to take Leica fwd comfortably.
    Very well put. The problem isn't whether they will sell 1,000 units - the problem is that the strategy they have adopted fits very well in the "new niche market" as noted above. They'll sell the 1,000 units - but then the next year, or the year after, they won't sell. And they'll be right back in the DMR dilemma - the faithful want them to continue, but there are just no new sales to prop up the machine.

    Leica can always find 1,000 who will support them - the issue is rather the ongoing 1,000 per annum that they seem to lose.

    Geoff

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike M View Post
    I agree 100% and admire Leica for attempting this project... It's kind of sad to read the comments in this forum (and others) trashing the system already...
    Mike,
    Maybe I missed a lot in the reading, but I have not really seen anybody trashing the new Leica S2 system in this thread. There is a lot of trashing the Leica pricing scheme, and that is sort of the focus coming from the just released pricing schedule. I think a lot of folks are impressed that Leica attempted this, and a lot do hope they succeed. I am one of those for sure. My disappointment was believing Leica when they talked about all the cost savings and stuff that would make this system possible for a new market segment (those in 35mm DSLR wanting more, plus some MF folks looking for more of the DSLR handling and "contained complexity" for lack of a better way to describe it).

    I still think the S2 system has tremendous potential, and could be somewhat of a game changer between 35mm DSLR and MFDB systems. That does appear to be a possible target market that may have been willing to jump in, but after seeing the breathtaking pricing scheme more like the old Leica offerings, it just seems a bit too much for many potential buyers, myself included.

    So, I agree that trashing the S2 system is unwarranted, unless it does fail miserably in performance, but trashing the marketing and pricing schemes that Leica is positing seems pretty fair game at this point.

    LJ

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike M View Post
    I agree 100% and admire Leica for attempting this project... It's kind of sad to read the comments in this forum (and others) trashing the system already...
    I can understand your frustration in the comments. I don't think people are trashing the product so much as the marketing strategy. I don't think most people here WANT Leica to fail but given the economy, the competition, and several other factors the company often leaves people scratching their heads. Traditions are one thing and understanding the market for long term self sustainability is another. Outside the niche and quirks of the M-System they really don't have much to stand on.

    I hate to reiterate this but the focus should have been on on the R10 as there are already an existing line of lenses. There would only be a need to make AF versions of existing lenses and fill the gaps in the R-System. Yes it would cost more than the mass market SLR's, yes there would be questions about the electronic ability, but there would be more people willing to buy into it if nothing else for Leica optics.
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    TBH, I was waiting for the official USA pricing to be delivered on high from Mount Solms before making my decision about MF digital. As someone who wants to make money with his photography, I cannot justify this cost in any business plan when the alternatives on the market are a much better deal. Unless the IQ is orders of magnitude better than all the rest combined, I don't see this camera making a dent in the market. I am planning to go Phamiya/Cambo for my MFD needs.

    Maybe Leica will survive long enough to adopt the Hummer product philosophy. Hummer produced their most expensive model first, the H1 and sold quite a few (but not market-shakingly so) to the well-heeled, discriminating buyer with cash. They then introduced the H2, a smaller, more fuel-efficient, less expensive version which did much better. Then they came up with the H3 - Hummer for the masses, which did very, very well compared to the H1 & H2.

    Granted, Hummer did have a military contract to start off with and keep them afloat during the "growing pains" phase.
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Regardless of whether they meet or even exceed their sales goals, in terms of capitalizing on the marketing opportunity of introducing a brand new system, this price announcement sounds more like a thud than a chorus of hallelujah.

    I'm sure it will be a splendid camera in every way. I'm proud (as a Leica owner) of their R&D and wonderful design. But I have yet to see any images from it except those from months ago during the video demo. Even if it lives up to every bit of marketing hyperbole, Leica has chosen to aim for an elite club/market. And as others have suggested, if the strategic direction for the future of Leica is to be based around the S2, that's a club I'll not soon be enrolled in as a member.

    All this time I was madly saving my pennies for a nice middle of the line Porche 911 only to find out what's really being sold is a Ferrari Enzo. Again, bummer.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Brad, I know what you mean, but 1000 cameras per year in a world of 6-7 billion people is not exactly "quantity". Perhaps Leica plans to sell to well-heeled photographers as well as collectors and rich people in general in year 1, only to sell based on earned reputation in year 2...

    Personally, I think they won't need to. There must be thousands and thousands of well-established pros in fashion photography using DSLRs who are looking for that advantage over their peers, and for whom the money can be justified by the subsequent increase in high-end business...
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by etrigan63 View Post
    Maybe Leica will survive long enough to adopt the Hummer product philosophy. Hummer produced their most expensive model first, the H1 and sold quite a few (but not market-shakingly so) to the well-heeled, discriminating buyer with cash. They then introduced the H2, a smaller, more fuel-efficient, less expensive version which did much better. Then they came up with the H3 - Hummer for the masses, which did very, very well compared to the H1 & H2.

    Granted, Hummer did have a military contract to start off with and keep them afloat during the "growing pains" phase.
    and they also transformed from building the H1 from the ground up to using existing GM frames and drivetrains for the H2 and H3. So what should we anticipate the S3 to be.....a smaller cheaper version built on the R platform that has now been discontinued?

    LJ

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    That said, the market will be efficient in good times, so maybe Leica needs to be patient. Also, I have no doubt the S2 system will be as good, or better in some ways than Hasselblad-and you will spenf 40-50K new for that as well.
    Interesting point, and very true... I wonder if Leica isn't actually expecting any MFers to switch, but is counting purely on DSLRers to upgrade... If so, and at similar prices for the Hasselblad system, the Leica system has some major advantages in speed and integration, something which DSLRers are used to.
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by TRSmith View Post
    Regardless of whether they meet or even exceed their sales goals, in terms of capitalizing on the marketing opportunity of introducing a brand new system, this price announcement sounds more like a thud than a chorus of hallelujah.
    Tim, this sums it up nicely.

    LJ

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Interesting point, and very true... I wonder if Leica isn't actually expecting any MFers to switch, but is counting purely on DSLRers to upgrade... If so, and at similar prices for the Hasselblad system, the Leica system has some major advantages in speed and integration, something which DSLRers are used to.
    HI Carsten
    I think you've hit the nail on the head - if you already spent $50,000 on Hassy or Phase gear (which is now worth $25,000) then Leica would be mad to expect you to take that loss and spend the money all over again.

    I never believed they would be taking many existing MF users - but if I was planning on moving in that direction these prices wouldn't stop me (anyway, they're what we expected aren't they?).

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    and they also transformed from building the H1 from the ground up to using existing GM frames and drivetrains for the H2 and H3. So what should we anticipate the S3 to be.....a smaller cheaper version built on the R platform that has now been discontinued?

    LJ
    I've seen mockups of a Leica S5 floating around the rumor mills. Smaller body, same lenses. Don't ask how they'd pull that off but using R-technology and scaled-down S-lenses (to R-format) or S-autofocus retrofitted onto R-lens designs and the FF sensor rumored to be in the M9...
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Not even will they start at this price, but Leica will probably set the price even higher three times before next summer. Just like they have done with the M line the last years. Sorry, but Im not riding on this boat...

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    There must be thousands and thousands of well-established pros in fashion photography using DSLRs who are looking for that advantage over their peers, and for whom the money can be justified by the subsequent increase in high-end business...
    actually those guys would much rather spend their money on better retouchers and stylists....

    Most of them do just fine with a 1Ds3
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Of course Hasselblad will drop their prices another couple of K before the Leica hits the street if the intention is woowing DSLR users.
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by arashm View Post
    Most of them do just fine with a 1Ds3
    Agreed. It is the difference between "most" and "all" which is interesting here. The top few hundred or thousand might be looking to take a step forward in quality and resolution. It remains to be seen.
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    I have another take.

    I'm not interested in whether their pricing is 'right' or 'wrong' other than that as an owner of some of their gear I'd prefer the S2 not to bankrupt them. I'm sorry that people feel disappointed or let down - but there seems to be the faintest whiff of moral outrage around at the pricing... or maybe I'm just imagining that bit?

    Whatever. My hope for the system was that it might banish the need for me to have both an SLR and a MF setup. Like one or two others here I was maybe thinking that I could sell my P45+ and Phamiya setup and my 5DII and glass and just have one system to deal with. But the release of pricing has really focussed my mind on this as a real rather than a theoretical choice and I have to say that unless the test and user reports on the S2 are astonishing, I won't be going for it because on reflection it can't replace either my SLR kit OR my MF kit.

    It can't replace my MF kit: I HATE my Phamiya 645III body. It is a dinosaur of the worst kind. I would dearly love the resolution of a P45+ (or thereabouts) on a camera with proper AF, a mirror that didn't slam like a barn door, a shutter that didn't have the torque of a Ferrari and that didn't have a battery habit like a milk float...... and so on. But the truth is, I kinda like the P45+ on my Cambo technical camera with Schneider glass. I like the movements and the precision and the surprisingly small and light form factor. So whatever tricks the S2 has that I would love to have, it lacks some I need.

    It can't replace my SLR kit (5DII): as far as I can see from the Leica website it doesn't have live view. I seriously doubt that it can do clean ISO over 1000. It can't shoot video (which a year ago I wouldn't have given a damn about but now it matters). It won't let me do the odd long lens job (can you imagine how much they'd charge for a 300 or God Forbid 500 or 600mm equivalent lens?!).

    In other words, it doesn't allow me to consolidate by replacing other kit and it doesn't offer enough in the middle ground to make me want to add yet another camera system. Especially at this price.

    Exing out for the moment those 'doctors and princes' who will buy it because they can (and I have no problem with that whatsoever!) I have to stop thinking about how it will suit me (because unless it's truly incredible it won't) and think who it will suit.

    Not the landscape photographer: even when the TS lens comes, the movements will be on the front.

    Fine art photographers? Probably not: they are quite often landscape-like in their needs

    Not the street shooter. Too big, too obvious, too expensive to get nicked or smashed, too shallow DOF.

    Wedding guys with a really good business? Maybe but I think they're starting to get expected to supply some video and generally their revenues wouldn't support the system (they can't afford not to have a backup as well).

    Sports/Editorial/News photographers. Nah. They need Canikons becaue they need a wide but compact range of focal lengths and are starting to have to produce video.

    Fashion/glamour/portrait photographers with a mixture of studio and location work? If that was my only or very main work, I'd maybe spring for it.

    So the more I look at the issue the more it seems to me that without video, and in a world where resolution requirements for professional output are actually falling in some sectors (anything with screen or small editorial as the likely destination) it's gonna appeal to a very narrow field.

    I so want to justify buying one and to be honest with a bit of heavy eBay action and some high levels of self delusion I could afford it... but I won't. And I can't think of a single person who will. Which is a real pity cos I want to play with one without disappointing a dealer afterwards!

    Tim
    Last edited by tashley; 30th July 2009 at 12:35.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    PDN just released an article where Christian Erhardt addresses the S2 pricing (http://www.pdngearguide.com/gearguid...4a4dfe18007090)

    Cheers,

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Imagine how different the response on this thread would be if Leica had priced the body at ~$12k.....I'm guessing that alot of folks would have put their names on the waiting list, even with the high lens prices. Leica missed a game-changing opportunity here.

    Personally, I still think a 50% premium over a D3x is about right. To me, pricing of an S2 vs the truly pro-level DSLRs is the real comparison (not the Phase One/Hasselbald interchangeable digital back systems).....as much as Leica might want us to think otherwise. But heh....as an amateur with no money for new toys, what do I know?

    Gary

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Riccis View Post
    PDN just released an article where Christian Erhardt addresses the S2 pricing (http://www.pdngearguide.com/gearguid...4a4dfe18007090)

    Cheers,
    "Other features of the S2 he felt justified the $22,995 price tag include.....a full version of Adobe Lightroom that will ship with the camera..."

    Oh yeah, that's got to be worth at least a few hundred dollars (x3)!

    Gary

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Gary,

    I already own Lightroom. I wonder if I could get a few thousand dollars off?

    Steve

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Riccis View Post
    PDN just released an article where Christian Erhardt addresses the S2 pricing (http://www.pdngearguide.com/gearguid...4a4dfe18007090)

    Cheers,
    "Responding to questions why Leica choose not to offer a lens package with the Leica S2, Erhardt said: "It's Leica's policy to keep all the options open to the consumer rather than just bundle an entry-level lens with the S2."

    I'm sorry....this just keeps getting better and better. Clearly, Leica didn't have the consumer's best interests in mind when they offered an R9 entry-level package with the 35-70 lens.

    "The entry-level set includes a LEICA R9 in classic black, featuring the high-grade LEICA VARIO-ELMAR-R 35-70 mm f/4, at a highly attractive price."

    What we need here is a "highly attractive price". Too bad the folks at Leica didn't see it that way.

    Gary

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    Gary,

    I already own Lightroom. I wonder if I could get a few thousand dollars off?

    Steve
    I would certainly hope so!

    Gary

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    You know what it should be and that is what counts. Regardless being a Pro or not you are a consumer. And no one on this planet can justify these costs to me , NO ONE. They frankly are irresponsible to what the market will bear. Seriously there is nothing a S2 has that a Hassy or Phase does not have , maybe some change in features but not starting at 6k than moving up to about 20k or more for a system wide setup. And yes i wanted one but you will not move me with overpricing by a country mile. This has nothing to do with anything but value for your dollar so really hearing how our reactions are to this is not what the issue is . Most of us would want to get in. That is not the issue , what is pushing the envelope way beyond reasonable and prudent even for the wealthy but more important what the competition already has as the standard as reasonable and prudent. These prices no matter how much you think there maybe some advantage to owning the Leica which it clearly is not does not justify these kinds of price swings. Not in MF for sure, 35mm than we are talking a different language. Last comment and i am already over it and looking back into my Phase kit. I honestly can't be motivated to buy even if money was no object.
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Guy,
    Interestingly, I am about at the same place in my mind. I figured Leica would carry a bit of premium that would be worth it if all goes well, but not the premium that they are asking at this point, given everything else.

    There is a new calm that came across me after reading that PDN article where Erhardt steps all over things trying to "justify" the pricing. I laughed over the LR comment also, and realized they are just not getting it....the S2 is flatly overpriced in a most arrogant and foolish way on Leica's part, in my opinion. You are correct....no way they can now convince me to pony up for what could be a great system....unless they get very real and put the pricing much closer to the 56% difference over top end 35mm DSLRs, and stop saying it is a MF so it should be priced like one. It is neither, but closer to a 35mm DSLR in my mind at this point, but with killer optics and imaging potential, and should be more competitively priced along those lines.

    Leica lost my interest at this point, and it will be tough to get it back. I still love my M8 and the glass I have for it, but even that glow is gone a bit more now. Just my thoughts over this debacle of Leica marketing ineptitude. They had a real opportunity to change the game, create a market lead position in a new niche with tons of potential, and instead they tout providing a full copy of Lightroom!!!! Insane.

    LJ

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by kinok1 View Post
    I dont post to this board often. Mostly because there usually is another member who says what i'm thinking in a much more eloquent way.

    But today. Im pissed.

    As a photographer who makes his living primarily shooting with M cameras I need Leica to stay in business. To remain strong, healthy, (and most of all) able to service my cameras and lenses.

    So when i see that a fully blown out S2 system is going to cost 50k or so. And then i read that the S2 is 'the focus' for the company in the future.

    I just shake my head. Maybe it is time to really give those zf lenses a go on a d3x. Not because the S2 wont be great. Just because, (and i pray its not) - it might be the anchor to finally sink an already leaky ship.
    I hope the Hell not. I want/need the M9 to make it to market. My eggs are in that basket with the lenses and all.

    I'm the creaky old ship here, and I need to be able to swap out to a M camera when doing weddings just for the relief

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by etrigan63 View Post
    TBH, I was waiting for the official USA pricing to be delivered on high from Mount Solms before making my decision about MF digital. As someone who wants to make money with his photography, I cannot justify this cost in any business plan when the alternatives on the market are a much better deal. Unless the IQ is orders of magnitude better than all the rest combined, I don't see this camera making a dent in the market. I am planning to go Phamiya/Cambo for my MFD needs.

    Maybe Leica will survive long enough to adopt the Hummer product philosophy. Hummer produced their most expensive model first, the H1 and sold quite a few (but not market-shakingly so) to the well-heeled, discriminating buyer with cash. They then introduced the H2, a smaller, more fuel-efficient, less expensive version which did much better. Then they came up with the H3 - Hummer for the masses, which did very, very well compared to the H1 & H2.

    Granted, Hummer did have a military contract to start off with and keep them afloat during the "growing pains" phase.
    A perfect example of a product that contributed to the insolvency of a company.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    I have another take.
    <big snip of an interesting post>
    Tim
    Sad to say, but if Tim's evaluation is correct, Leica has a product which itself only fits a very small niche market....which they've made even smaller by the high price of entry.

    Good luck with this one Leica....but I sure wish you had put a few of those research and development dollars into a digital R10 instead. I would have loved to put my R lenses to good use on one (someday).

    Gary

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    Of course Hasselblad will drop their prices another couple of K before the Leica hits the street if the intention is woowing DSLR users.
    I would not be surprised if Hasselblad discontinued the H3D-II/31 in the near future.

    Personally, I think that it is a losing game for them. They can do the price trick once to attract 35mm DSLR users, maybe twice, just like they did. Then the reality of it hits the consumer that the money loss is substantual unless they make a living with cameras, and MF isn't 35mm DSLRs.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Sent to dealers, talking points attached.

    From: Erhardt, Christian
    To: Photo Reps
    Sent: Thu, Jul 30, 2009 4:17 pm
    Subject: Leica S2 comments / talking points

    Dear all,

    This morning we were asked by PDN Magazine to give an interview in regards to the S2 pricing. This interview was meant to reiterate some of the major talking points of this product that separate us from the lower-end medium format cameras.

    Soon we will be able to address image quality, where we are confident to show a clear quality difference in regards to high ISO and other key measurement points.

    For your own reference we have attached a document with the most talking point that have been released so far. A more detailed list will follow in the coming 2 weeks with a press release a complete spec sheet.

    If you have any questions, please feel free to contact me any time.

    http://www.pdngearguide.com/gearguid...4a4dfe18007090

    ---
    Best regards
    Christian Erhardt

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    You know what it should be and that is what counts. Regardless being a Pro or not you are a consumer. And no one on this planet can justify these costs to me , NO ONE. They frankly are irresponsible to what the market will bear. Seriously there is nothing a S2 has that a Hassy or Phase does not have , maybe some change in features but not starting at 6k than moving up to about 20k or more for a system wide setup. And yes i wanted one but you will not move me with overpricing by a country mile. This has nothing to do with anything but value for your dollar so really hearing how our reactions are to this is not what the issue is . Most of us would want to get in. That is not the issue , what is pushing the envelope way beyond reasonable and prudent even for the wealthy but more important what the competition already has as the standard as reasonable and prudent. These prices no matter how much you think there maybe some advantage to owning the Leica which it clearly is not does not justify these kinds of price swings. Not in MF for sure, 35mm than we are talking a different language. Last comment and i am already over it and looking back into my Phase kit. I honestly can't be motivated to buy even if money was no object.
    It's too bad you feel that way Guy. YOU were a real potential target for this camera as it was moving toward your desire for a consolidated system to meet most if not all of your needs with one system ... something you have been clear about for some time now.

    Like a few other folks here have stated, for me it can't replace my swift shooting, longer lens using D3X, dual card, user selected 51 AF points (that I actually use all the time) ... that's backed up by a super high ISO D3. It can't replace my H3D-II/39 since I use that on a Rollei Xact-II with digital view lenses.

    I could eliminate the Sony ... and Hasselblad V system ... and the H3D-II/31 ... which would net enough to maybe buy the body with the "Peasant" warranty and poor man's LCD. But then I'd have to cash in some IRA's to get a lens ... oh wait, that money is in some Wall Street banker's account now, not mine. Sorry I forgot what year this was ... had a flash back to prosperious times Maybe Leica forgot also?

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I hope the Hell not. I want/need the M9 to make it to market. My eggs are in that basket with the lenses and all.

    I'm the creaky old ship here, and I need to be able to swap out to a M camera when doing weddings just for the relief
    Now I'm scared to death that Leica will price the M9 at some ridiculous price level to offset for S2 losses... One way or another we're all stuck paying for the S2 (assuming we buy a new Leica M lens, accessory, etc).

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    All I can say is "wow". This could be a perfect camera for me -- I would happily sell the entire Hy6 kit for it, as well as anything else I have laying around. But my lord, the pricing is pretty insane. I bought the DMR when it came out, I bought the M8 -- I am a huge Leica fan and their cameras and lenses work very well for my photography. But this is beyond the pale. The standard body price is about 5000 more than I was expecting (and 10,000 more than I was hoping), but this is really only part of it. You have to factor in the lens prices, as everyone else has mentioned, there are no other options. You must buy new lenses -- 20,000 USD for a moderate wide, standard lens, and moderate tele with lens shutters. I know they will be great, but it just doesn't make sense.

    I know they sold less than 5000 DMR's, and this was with an embedded user base and people who already owned the camera and lenses -- all they had to buy was a digital back that was 5000 USD when it was released (into a MUCH better economic market). With this they will need to buy every piece of the kit, at 40,000-50,000. Selling 1000 might be a difficult task.
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    How many $30 magazine covers would one need to sell and in what time frame over the expected usable lifespan of the S2 system to recoup your outlay and justify buying into the S2 system?

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Leica needs to do a "Cash for Clunkers" deal to the tune of about $10k for any old camera and lens

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Well I think Leica really missed it. I studied the prices again quite a few times and I'm still shocked.

    The first problem is the 70mm lens. Sorry 4500 for a normal lens ? If you buy Phase or Hassi you get that lens with your body. I don't know about the hasso, BUT I know the Phase One 80mm D is REALLY good. Will the Leica be even better ? Yes, but I don't think anyone would ever see it. The 80mm from Phase is great even with the P65, wide open and sharp from corner to corner, there is nothing Leica could ad to that.

    Second problem, real problem. What typ of service do you get without all these options ? The saem as with the M line ? Having to wait months for repairs and replays ?

    I really hope Leica stays in business, but as I said before, these S2 prices will kill Leica in the next 2 years.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Thing is, I don't even see sheiks and sultans ponying up for this. It's just too much camera for amateur shooters. It doesn't have that classic appeal and legacy and portability that say the M8 had. Yes, there are some very very wealthy photography buffs out there. But many wealthy people I know are just fine with a Canon p&s or maybe a Nikon D300 etc. Plus, how many dealers will actually have an S2 to fondle and play with? Even the M8 showed up in duty free shops - I seriously doubt that with a system like the S2. Yes, there are those out there who drop $100K on watches, but cameras are different. They just are.

    And pros? hell, when Leibowitz is in trouble you know the industry is hurting. Personally I'm doing best these days with my archives - all shot on film Nikons and lenses which all cost me less than the damn S2 grip and charger.

    Personally I find the premium pricing on service an insult and will put off even the pros that can afford this. They should drop that asap. It just makes them look bad, esp as they don't have the most stellar rep in servicing though M users will put up with it because the camera is so unique.

    Love the camera and concept and I'm sure it would be seriously fun to shoot with. But they don't factor in all of the other costs of doing photography. Gear is really only a very small part of it and most shooters (myself included) are seriously scaling back esp now that 35 bodies in the $2-8K range have become so good it's best to get one and stick with it awhile as they'll only be getting better and cheaper the longer one waits.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Lars Vinberg View Post
    That's today (or last year). S2 product life must span 2010-2011 considering no realistic possibility of high volume ......
    High volume is no problem for leica, they are "special editions" manufacturer.

    Since the announcement of this S2 I keep saying they bury their grave.
    One didn't need to be a fortune teller to guess it would be over priced as usual I tend to say, for a very small niche product, during a very bad financial crisis
    Something can be over priced if cost 5000 units and be selling well, at 25000 it's a different story.

    No matter how good the system is, at this point it's irrelevant. Leica has never understood the difference between the digital and film market, they never graps the fast obsolescence of digital, the poor reliability of electronic and resale value, and that prices should follow in consequence.

    Sad story but so predictable.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by bensonga View Post
    Sad to say, but if Tim's evaluation is correct, Leica has a product which itself only fits a very small niche market....which they've made even smaller by the high price of entry.

    Good luck with this one Leica....but I sure wish you had put a few of those research and development dollars into a digital R10 instead. I would have loved to put my R lenses to good use on one (someday).

    Gary
    The R serie owners have been waiting for the R10 for so long they finally quit and buy Canon to make use of their lenses.
    If a R10 was to hit the market, it would have been long time ago and at comparable price with the competitors.
    Leica didn't understand they can't sell the same electronic components the market provides to every manufacturer, with a 5 times mark up over the competition. The jackup coefficient for Leica brand is over since digital, only Leica don't know this.
    So a R10, yes but NOW at 2000! Nonetheless, the buyers should factor in they would get only half of what is into Canonikon techno. This isn't a dream but what Leica should have done long ago to float in this market.

    Lucky there are other brands giving us the possibilities to make use of our R lenses, Leica managed that, get their business stolen, lens making, because of total irrespect for their customers.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    I woke up at 4 am still in sticker shock. I honestly can't believe Leica missed the mark this bad. There was serious hope for me and a lot of other folks. But even after some careful thought and reasonable strategy in my head because i truly want to get down to one system which I am actually doing anyway. I just keep coming up short on any justification even figuring you threw a 35mm system into the whole factor and get a two for one. Still does not cut it. We are still back to two viable systems in the market that don't have some trouble spots attached to there back side. Hassy and Phase. I'm very happy with what I have but obviously a body improvement is needed in the Phase area which is no secret coming from me. Now I certainly hope Hassy and Phase take a page from this get there *** in gear and give us more what we need and want than stand still. I also wake up with a really bad feeling for Leica. This is not a small increase in pricing over other systems like the M8 was , sure maybe overpriced but still within grasp. This S2 is not even in the same galaxy and to have talking points out before the thing hits the streets only proves they know how much there screwed even going in. The big question is WHY and WHY bother. Two questions at thispoint I don't need to know the answer. They finally left me at the door stop. I have some very good friends at Leica and this morning I realize how much i would not want to be in their shoes explaining this one. There is no explanation that is reasonable and prudent to listen too.

    Honestly like Marc said I was and am the perfect target for the S2, no question about it right squarely the proper beast for what I do. To leave me wanting and a lot of shooters like me wanting at the curb with our hands still in our pants pockets playing pocket pool is just a bad call.
    Sorry for the graphic but this is just upsetting for the industry. Oh well it's anew day and guess i just have to get over it. Back to vacation. LOL
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