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Thread: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Look at how successful Sony has been with a Prosumer level, high meg camera because of the AF Zeiss lenses available for it. Granted, the A900 is only 3K, but the Zeiss ZA lenses aren't exactly inexpensive considering that none of them are APO designs.
    Has it been successful?
    I know it's much liked around here (I love mine). But I see no signs of it being a success, my dealer hasn't sold many, my other dealer stopped selling them altogether. Added to which I've never seen one in the 'wild' and I don't know anybody outside these forums who actually owns one.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by TRSmith View Post
    You might be right Jono. But if I were introducing a new product to market and encountered this sort of reaction to its pricing by one of the larger markets for said product, I'd have to be concerned. As in most aspects of life, perception is often the most critical part of success. So far, as Jorgen has suggested with his remarks about the Leica Marketing and PR, we have only their word that it's the "best" but very real evidence that it's the most expensive.
    Hi Tim
    I don't think this ever looked like a "larger market for said product". Maybe some of the well heeled amateurs (and I bet some will still fall for it). What I find really strange is that anyone is surprised at the price - they've always talked about €20,000 for the body. The lenses look to me to be exactly the prices I'd expect (especially when looking at the prices of the new M Lenses). It was never going to be attractive for anyone who is cost conscious AND also has an investment in other MF products.

    Manufacturing in Europe to Leica standards with a limited production - how was it going to be anything other than blisteringly expensive? Selling bodies at a loss so you can make money on the lenses means you have to put up the prices of the lenses!

    Their stated target was fashion and advertising (a rare beast around these forums?).

    I'm not for a second saying that it's going to be a success (I don't pretend to know), I'm just astonished at the outraged surprise for what was (even to me) absolutely obvious.

    I still think it's success hinges almost entirely on how good it is (which is rare for a camera).

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    The real issue here is the perceived value and costs are way out of line given the economy and competition out here already. When 99 percent of the people say ah crap it is way out of line than what we expected or what makes prudent sense to the wallet than you have a major issue. It is the stubborn corporate politics that is going to bury them. Obviously Leica completely ignored every comment and suggestion made when it came to introducing a new system to the market. People that know or deal with the industry on a daily basis and have a sense of value in the product lines and having systems out there already producing the best images on the planet. The other issue is it went beyond competing for 35mm users by around 22 thousand dollars and went beyond MF by around 8 thousand dollars. It jumped from a tweener system into something way beyond what it should be. It jumped complete categories by just the price alone 34k for a basic setup is beyond any reasonable reach for 99 percent of the population. That is way to big a number to be successful . If that number was even 95 percent that thinks it's too much at least they had 5 percent to maybe pull the rabbit out of the hat. In this case it is only as obvious as the nose on our face that Leica is truly trying to makeup there entire R&D output in a 1 or 2 thousand units and going for short term returns. At least this is very perceived by me. This is really depressing to watch and see them sleeves completely put a rope around there neck on release. There not even giving themselves a chance here and for what reason to say they have the most expensive system around and say we can pounce on everyone when we all know that is not remotely true at all. Maybe they don't follow the tests that go on between backs or completely ignore them. I'm going to say this and it is not very nice but the key word here and I truly believe what has everyone scratching there head is one word arrogance. Arrogance just does not work in the market anymore
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    There not even giving themselves a chance here
    Whatever - I'm just astonished that you're surprised - it's actually cheaper than they suggested they were aiming at!

    p.s. arrogance works in every marketplace I look at!
    Last edited by jonoslack; 1st August 2009 at 07:21.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    I think Leica is just doing what Leica does best... Selling to that elusive, yet deep-pocketed 1-2%. Is it expensive? Yes. Is it really nice stuff? Sure. But let's face it - Leica has never been about the mass market. They enjoy a niche that has become associated with the Leica brand name. There WILL be people buying the S2 at this price, rest assured. It's just a matter of how many, in the long run.

    As for Leica going for short-term profits, sure they're good at that. Sell less units but with a much higher profit. But even if they do sell out all of the 1,000 units in the first run - they still wouldn't recoup the R&D, tooling and marketing costs. So it seems one would have to take "short-term" a little loosely.

    Meh. I know I ain't buying one.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Whatever - I'm just astonished that you're surprised - it's actually cheaper than they suggested they were aiming at!

    p.s. arrogance works in every marketplace I look at!
    Actually Jono it is not what they promised and that was to be competitive to other MF systems. It is not even close as I said before i can get very close or way above the S2 and still come in at a much lower cost. Frankly I can get a P65+ for less. Am I surprised , yes I am they overshot this thing by a country mile. If it was closer than i would not had a issue at all but it's out of control when you can't get a lens for less than 5 K US. That's just sick

    The sad part really is this it is really taking the Pro's right out of it before it even starts and those superstars everyone keeps wishing for are almost vanished. I just spent a lot of time with the NY fashion shooters and they are hurting big time. We will never get back to those big productions and if we do they will be very limited in nature.

    All this did was keep my wife out of jail from shooting my head off if I bought one. LOL
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Doublle Negative - you're right in many respects and had the S2 being targeted as THE high-end very well-monied consumer camera, I think folks would still be surprised over the price, but just shake it off as Leica being Leica (as you say).

    However the S2 is designed as a pro-MF body (dual shutters, etc) designed to go up against Hassy/Phase - in the hands of pros. They designed (in their minds) a Hassy H3dII-39 'killer' yet priced it like they were totally ignorant of current state of the pro gear market: priced at 2007-08 levels, large $$$$ for a premium S&S package (when the reputation of their current S&S is in the toilet), won't have many lenses out until 2010, try justifying the price (to a pro) as it comes with a copy of LightRoom (what drugs are they on?), when they have a lousy rep for new (digital) body intros, no rental presence, their first commercial attempt at AF, no entry kit package etc, etc., etc.

    In short they design a pro MF body then price and market it like it was a platinum-plated limited edition 24x36mm AF version of the M9 - and then sum.

    In optics, Leica is second to none. In camera ergos/mechanics (IMHO) they excel, in electronics - uh, iffy. In marketing, PR and strategic planning - I've seen few worse (and that's saying something). As said in a post some time ago, from the perspective of who they designed it for and who they hope(d) to sell it to - this thing is DOA.

    Hopefully enough of the (monied) faithful, collectors, and so-called' superstars' pick up the 1000 unit slack or any meaningfully improved M8.2 or future FF M_ will be wishful thinking.
    Last edited by robmac; 1st August 2009 at 08:04.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Actually Jono it is not what they promised and that was to be competitive to other MF systems. It is not even close as I said before i can get very close or way above the S2 and still come in at a much lower cost. Frankly I can get a P65+ for less. Am I surprised , yes I am they overshot this thing by a country mile. If it was closer than i would not had a issue at all but it's out of control when you can't get a lens for less than 5 K US. That's just sick
    As I remember it they were always talking of body prices at around €20,000, and it's less than that - whatever the current dollar conversion rate is not their fault (although it might be their problem).
    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    The sad part really is this it is really taking the Pro's right out of it before it even starts and those superstars everyone keeps wishing for are almost vanished. I just spent a lot of time with the NY fashion shooters and they are hurting big time. We will never get back to those big productions and if we do they will be very limited in nature.

    All this did was keep my wife out of jail from shooting my head off if I bought one. LOL
    I don't think those superstars are vanished in Europe . . . but either way, the idea that any reasonable pro who already had a fully working MF setup was going to rush out and change it all for an S2 is cloud cuckoo land - you might want to do it, but getting out of your existing system (after they've all dumped their prices) was always going to be impossibly expensive.

    If they're really aiming at 1000 bodies a year (and perhaps that's all they can make). There are enough people who can easily afford it. You talk about turning off 99%, if they turn off 999 out of a thousand they still won't be able to make enough.

    I stick to my point - if it's good, then it'll sell - not to you - certainly not to me, but it'll sell. (there's no shortage of ferraris and bentleys in our streets)

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Another few stokes of this fire.....

    Leica has always reveled in being an "uber" brand of sorts. O.K., that is a given. However, as Guy and others have mentioned, Leica went out of its way at the initial announcement of the S2 to declare that they were planning on moving into a market segment with a superior product at competitive prices. At the time, they were still sounding like they wanted to create a tweener market niche. So far, fine. Well, now they are trying to deliver into that tweener market niche, but at prices that exceed the MF niche. Hmmm, something seems amiss already, but most of us that have used Leica glass were prepared for some premium, just not what Leica is asking now. It remains to be proven that this new camera is able to produce everything it touts, all the time, every time without issues. But wait, we have yet to see anything beyond a few Webified images in a market pandering ad. We have heard a few folks that have handled it be impressed, etc., but none in the hands of testers, nobody really shaking it down, no images to display the boasted superiority of things, etc.

    As others have stated more elegantly than me, the price of the body is almost insulting from several perspectives. First, it is single body design, just like the 35mm DSLRs it is really competing with. None of those competitors have every looked at their bodies as anything more than nearly obsolete in a few years. Leica is on that same track, regardless of what they say. It may have a 56% bigger sensor than a 35mm DSLR, but that hardly supports a 300% price differential in my mind, nor in the minds and pocketbooks of a lot of folks that seriously shoot for a living. It will need to be replaced at some point, and probably sooner than later, so the cost is hard to swallow.

    Secondly, and the point I keep making that really galls me is the lens pricing. Leica had gone out of their way to brag about how their new design and manufacture would allow them to offer their great glass at more competitive prices than we see in MF. So far, that is not true, based on their price schedule and nothing more than a few MTF charts....again, where are the real images! Now, if you do not want to doubt the Leica lens capability, that is fine, but the premise of offering stellar optics at more competitive prices is pure B.S. Leica did prove that it could redesign lens construction with their M Elmarit line, and keep prices in check. So what happened with these S lenses? (Not looking to debate size of glass and stuff, as that is not as significant as some think. AF and internal shutters are bigger points, but again, that was the big claim Leica boasted early on about how they have made that entire process more streamlined and therefore less costly.) Guess they just figure all of that cost savings does not have to be passed on to consumers and they could ask uber-premiums for the new glass that everybody has to have to use this new system. If that is not last century arrogance in the new economy, I really am at a loss for a better example.

    Start doing the math.....instead of calculating how much you need to save and spend, calculate the number of missteps in marketing....calculate the amount of overpricing against anything else in the market....calculate the number of promises broken or more than subtly changed....calculate the lack of evidence that this new tweener system will produce.

    Sorry, but even if I were to keep drinking the Kool-Aid from Solms over the supposed greatness and capability of this unproven system, the pricing scheme is still way out of whack to the economy and to the veiled promises made from the start and throughout the entire ramp up. At this point, it is not even as much an issue of not being able to afford this system, as not wanting to afford this system after all the wait. Leica blew way past the mark on pricing this thing, regardless of whether you live in Europe, Asia, the US or anywhere else. That used to be just my "opinion", but now it is looking more and more like both a shared "opinion" with many others who would have been excellent candidates for it, as was as some "fact" about pricing out of reality compared to any of the competitor markets, 35mm DSLR or MF. I wish Leica well, I guess, but my interest in this has fallen deeper than that initial gut-kick feeling when I saw the prices.

    LJ

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    I stick to my point - if it's good, then it'll sell - not to you - certainly not to me, but it'll sell. (there's no shortage of ferraris and bentleys in our streets)
    Jono, you may well be correct... only time will tell. Anybody remember that special edition Noctilux they brought out recently at $16k plus... it sold. Compared to that these lenses are a bargain On the other hand, conspicuous consumption is no longer considered cool. I read an article recently that net-a-porter, which sells very high end fashion items, now gives it's customers the option of having their goods delivered in brown paper wrapping. Think for a moment of the reception an S2 buyer would get on this forum. My guess is that he/she would more likely be ridiculed than envied... and not all of that would be sour grapes. The consensus seems to be that you'd have to have no regard for money to buy this system. Not an image many are looking to project these days.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    Jono, you may well be correct... only time will tell. Anybody remember that special edition Noctilux they brought out recently at $16k plus... it sold. Compared to that these lenses are a bargain On the other hand, conspicuous consumption is no longer considered cool. I read an article recently that net-a-porter, which sells very high end fashion items, now gives it's customers the option of having their goods delivered in brown paper wrapping. Think for a moment of the reception an S2 buyer would get on this forum. My guess is that he/she would more likely be ridiculed than envied... and not all of that would be sour grapes. The consensus seems to be that you'd have to have no regard for money to buy this system. Not an image many are looking to project these days.
    Hi David
    there is a pretty clear difference between conspicous consumption and prestige. I don't think that anyone who has the financial clout to spend 50 grand on a camera system is going to give a damn about what people on a forum think (do you?).

    As for the prices of the lenses. To my bitter regret I've sold a couple of Leica lenses over the last couple of years at sensible prices: I want them back now, and they've both increased in secondhand value by around 40%, who else can you say that about?

    I have a small business (very small). When I look at the capitL expenditure we've made over the past year on stuff which is going to be worth nothing in two years.......

    "value for money" simply isn't a factor with some products. Leica has always been like that.

    You speak of the Noctilux. There was also the Safari and the white l
    M8s. Both greeted with hoots of derision here, but I don't see anyone offering them cheap. Do you?

    Apologies for typos. iPhone in car!

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    O.K., had another espresso (or two). Maybe I and others are looking at this the wrong way. Maybe Jono is on target. Maybe Leica just wants to claim some sort of bragging rights over superior pricing or something. But why build and tout a camera that offers capabilities far beyond what only wealthy collectors or such will ever use, if they even use it at all? What is really to be gained for the Leica brand if their new system never gets used and talked about or its results displayed in stunning ads and stuff? What is the point? At least really expensive jewelry can be worn, or really expensive cars can be driven around town to impress, but a highly professionally oriented camera that the rich owners probably are clueless over its capabilities and use? (Not saying that these rich buyers are all dumb or something, so to be a bit more politically correct, just think about how many of those Bentleys and Ferraris that Jono mentions being put through the paces regularly on any road or track. What is the point of that much wasted potential besides bragging?)

    So, maybe that is the real Leica strategy.....build and try to sell something only to those with more money than can use the capabilities and thereby enhance the brand. At least Ferrari has some some serious racing heritage in Formula One that they defend, and Bentley does exploit its exquisiteness and performance among the wealthy, or Rolex and others actually being used by folks daily. But a Leica S2 being the tote-along P&S toy of Paris Hilton? Or showing up at the polo club to snap a few shots for the scrapbook? Seriously? Just not seeing that. Who is Leica really making this camera for and trying to sell it to? (sorry for the dangling prepositions....too many espressos)

    LJ

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Is everyone looking at this in a very insular way. If you are a big name photographer and are shooting something like a vogue layout or the sports illustrated swimsuit edition do you mean to tell me the costs of owning/renting the S2 system can't be buried into your pricing? I know there are a lot of working pros on this forum but isn't there a group of fashion oriented photographers where this pricing isn't an issue?

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    LJ
    you can't sell it to the well heeled unless you can convince them that it's the best. Or at least allow them to convince themselves.

    Just as there are some good drivers who can afford Ferraris, so there are some good photographers who will be able to afford S2s (lots more I would think).

    Leica has always been like this: I assumed the M finish was indestructable because all the secondhand ones in dealers (and most of those offered for sale on this forum) are pristine. I now know better: my two year old black m8 hasn't got a scratch on it. It hasn't got much paint on it either

    Yes. And then there is the group Terry talks about.

    photography is full of fantastic photographs taken by well heeled amateurs. (by the way, in case it looks like it I am not for a second claiming to be a member of that club. .... Just the amateur club that does actually use it's Leica!)

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Terry,
    You may be correct. However, the number of those big shoots has dropped a lot in this economy, and the costs being paid as well. So some may still be able to garner the premium on the shoot, but do you think they will risk it with a new, unproven system that still does not even have all the glass and other pieces ready? Not for some time, I would bet. So owning or renting (still unknown where anybody will go for that part), may become possible, but not for while. Now, if one could do it with the 70mm or whatever is available out of the gate, great, but most of those folks probably already have and use Hasselblads, so where is their incentive when they absolutely must deliver? Also, check how many of these shoots are also now being done with Canons and Nikons. That may be more of a trend for some time to come, at least for the magazine sized spreads. For the big in-store prints and billboards.....existing MF or Genuine Fractals will probably continue to cover the needs at present and near future spending levels. Just my thoughts here.

    LJ

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    isn't there a group of fashion oriented photographers where this pricing isn't an issue?
    Terry, even if the pricing isn't an issue for that select group there are other negatives that will militate against buying into this system... availability in rental shops is the first one that comes to mind. FWIW, the comments over on LL, which include some of those guys seem to be pretty much consistent with what we're reading here. I was speaking to a pro photographer friend of mine who shoots Hassy MF and his current experience is that with the downturn in advertising much of what he's doing is intended for the web, and he's shooting Nikon for that stuff. All in all, not auspicious for the success of this platform with that group.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    To those who offer that this thread is just a lot of unfair Leica bashing, I suggest that this thread is the very debate Leica should have had before putting the S2 into production. That they "might have" and still continued with the S2, knowing the difficulties of launching a new closed system (with no existing lenses), well established competition that is available in rental departments nationwide and knowing the direction the world economies were headed (and please don't say this took us all by complete surprise as the writing has been on the walls for years) indicates, as Guy stated earlier, a rather supreme arrogance.

    Some of the anger (and disappointment) is coming from those R users who feel supremely disappointed. The DMR, good as it was and still is, was at best a stopgap effort that was designed to buy Leica some time to design a proper digital 35mm camera. What have they been doing for these past 10 years? Did they not see that film was losing market share to digital at increasing rates each year?

    Why did they design ROM contacts, if not for autofocus (or at minimum focus confirmation)? Given what Contax was able to do with manual focus lenses and a moving film plane on the NX: couldn't Leica have licensed this technology and improved upon it rather than design an entire new line of costly autofocus lenses? After all... Leica invented autofocus.

    Many Leica SLR users don't require super fast auto focus. They don't require 5-10 frames per second image capture either. I think that for those who do need some help with focusing - focus confirmation, at minimum, might have kept many in the fold, especially if Leica had released a purely digital slr with outstanding IQ.

    The fact that there are thousands of existing R lenses would have given many R users reason to buy an R10, even given the premium Leica would have had to charge over Nikon and Canon. What matters most to Leica users is the IQ their lenses provide (made possible by good sensors, of course). An up-to-date R10 with stellar IQ, focus confirmation and a SSS equivalent would have captured my vote. (That Sony incorporated SSS into their A900 proves that it is possible and that it works. Could Leica have licensed this technology for use in an R10 if not develop their own version?)

    This is all second guessing from one who feels deceived and conned by what I feel is a very misguided policy by Leica. Reminiscing on what might have been and shaking my head at what is. Bummer!
    Lawrence

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    you can't sell it to the well heeled unless you can convince them that it's the best. Or at least allow them to convince themselves.

    photography is full of fantastic photographs taken by well heeled amateurs. (by the way, in case it looks like it I am not for a second claiming to be a member of that club. .... Just the amateur club that does actually use it's Leica!)
    Jono,
    I agree. My point being that Leica has yet to prove its new system is the best and worth that cost. I still have some faith that it will be able to deliver, but if very few actually buy it, use it and display the results, will that convincing process not take a lot longer?

    My M8 is still a favourite camera of mine, and it does turn out some very decent stuff for me, despite the history with it. I just have not found it able to be put into full-time production that I can count on without having my Canons in the bag "just in case". I held off buying a second body or so as back-up, since the price was daunting and I still had to keep another system to deliver things the M8 could not. The S2 is shaping itself into much the same mold with regard to needing another system for other capabilities for me, and probably a lot of other potential shooters. That is one of the reasons I have not jumped back into MF on the digital side, as I still need to support my Canon system where MF cannot deliver. The S2 might have been able to change that game for me up to a point, but it is not even close to being ready there yet, nor is it proven, nor are the prices in line with being able to test the waters, as there is no secondary market with used glass or bodies that I could experiment with. At least the M8 had a huge secondary market in glass that was affordable. This is a different game and market right now.

    LJ

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    Is everyone looking at this in a very insular way. If you are a big name photographer and are shooting something like a vogue layout or the sports illustrated swimsuit edition do you mean to tell me the costs of owning/renting the S2 system can't be buried into your pricing? I know there are a lot of working pros on this forum but isn't there a group of fashion oriented photographers where this pricing isn't an issue?
    Apparently Leica thinks there are about 1000 of them a year. I hope they are right.

    Bear in mind, this is an extremely small number compared to the big guns...I still maintain this is an amazing price for what is essentially a limited edition product. The engineering and tooling expense for all the pieces is expensive, we are talking the best manufacturing available, in high-cost Germany, in small numbers...it makes for an expensive product.

    And we've just seen the pricing so far...I'd like to see how well it performs.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    Apparently Leica thinks there are about 1000 of them a year. I hope they are right.

    Bear in mind, this is an extremely small number compared to the big guns...I still maintain this is an amazing price for what is essentially a limited edition product. The engineering and tooling expense for all the pieces is expensive, we are talking the best manufacturing available, in high-cost Germany, in small numbers...it makes for an expensive product.

    And we've just seen the pricing so far...I'd like to see how well it performs.
    But at the same time Leica said the R&D used to do Maestro the fiware was going to be shared with the R (whatever form it comes in) and future M cameras. So, there could be a bit of scale here.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    I have no doubt that the S2 and its lenses will be top notch, but, as the Pennsylvania Dutchman would say, "It wonders me" why they decided to pursue the nearly MF market to begin with. It seems counter to their history and their acknowledged strengths.

    IMNSHO, they would have been far better advised to offer an R10 digital followed by the FF M9. More money would be flowing into their coffers over a shorter time frame and could, in this tough market, help Leica survive.

    Time will tell, all else is speculation.
    Roger
    Leica M6, M8.2 & assorted Leica glass

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    But at the same time Leica said the R&D used to do Maestro the fiware was going to be shared with the R (whatever form it comes in) and future M cameras. So, there could be a bit of scale here.
    O.K., but they also have said that there is no R10 anymore, and that any DSLR they may decide to pursue will be new and different. And they also say that an M9 is a ways off and that they will not be upgrading the M8/8.2 line anymore. So where are these "shared" development costs going to be laid off or shared? Seems like they are passing the full boat directly onto the S2 on some very short amortization schedule, meaning S2 buyers are footing the bill right now. Some may think that O.K., but again, it is total market BS spin from Leica and contrary to what they had planned and shared with folks for some time. Sorry, but this smells bad, feels bad, looks bad....

    LJ

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    r. grischek - a working photographer more than happy to buy the s2.

    http://www.s.leica-camera.com/robert-grischek

    check out the video at the bottom of the page.
    he says it handles like a 35mm camera and the pictures are sharp.

    i guess that's all it takes to pry 60 thousand dollars out of photographers pocket.


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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    "Fashion photographer Robert Grischek tests the prototype of the S2"

    Not even the version that will be shipping but a prototype.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by apocolibri View Post
    <big snip> The fact that there are thousands of existing R lenses would have given many R users reason to buy an R10, even given the premium Leica would have had to charge over Nikon and Canon. <snip> Lawrence
    I'll second everything Lawrence said.....as a relative new comer to the Leica R world with just a handful of manual focus R lenses.....I would have nonetheless pulled together every possible dollar to buy an R10 (assuming the IQ itself was every bit as good...and then some...as the offerings from Canon and Nikon).

    Gary

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Has it been successful?
    I know it's much liked around here (I love mine). But I see no signs of it being a success, my dealer hasn't sold many, my other dealer stopped selling them altogether. Added to which I've never seen one in the 'wild' and I don't know anybody outside these forums who actually owns one.
    Actually, that's a good question. I was thinking more in terms of owner satisfaction than sales numbers ... which I assumed would be nitch like the Leica R would be. The lenses seem to sell out pretty fast at B&H, but maybe it's not as many as one would suppose.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    20K does not buy a camera with LiveView focus? This camera would live on a tripod if I bought it. No I don't want to bring an LCD panel with me... the whole idea of this system is "easier to use than MF" right? Wake me up twenty years from now and let's see what manufactures can make.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    I'm not outraged at the pricing. I'm sure it's what they needed to charge for what is for sure a wonderful system. The problem is I don't think anyone will buy it at least not in the pro MF market. That bothers me because now they have put the company at risk. I want them around to keep developing the M and in the hope that who knows they might even develop the small digital reportage camera of the future.

    The SLR market seems to be like a tar pit for them historically.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    I'm picking up on an interesting current that is running, without comment, underneath the discussion of the price. That is, how "good" does a camera system need to be? I see comments from professionals that they are not even using their current equipment at it's maximum capabilities. Is there a point beyond which "better" has no real meaning except when pixel peeping? Is there a need for "better" for fashion photography? Commercial, including billboard, photography? Sports? Landscape? If you can't see a difference in the format the photo will be presented in, then who cares?

    I'm willing to be educated that "better" is always "better", but I have been impressed by some comments that lead me to believe this may not be so.

    By the way, I dabbled a bit with Contax MFDB for a while. Took some spectacular pics (luck more than skill), very impressed with what it can do, but for me the awkwardness of the system (how many different batteries do you need?) was a problem, and in the end for this amateur it was too much money to sink into the system. The S2 sounds way cool, but obviously the price is an enormous barrier. However, my question is not about persons of my skill level; it is directed to photo professionals and highly skilled amateurs.
    Last edited by tom in mpls; 1st August 2009 at 23:27.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    As for the prices of the lenses. To my bitter regret I've sold a couple of Leica lenses over the last couple of years at sensible prices: I want them back now, and they've both increased in secondhand value by around 40%, who else can you say that about?
    Canon... In 2005/2006 we're buying 135L's for $769'ish after rebate; today $999. The lowly 50/1.4 that was $250'ish after rebate is now $399! $399!!! Can you believe that?!?! 85L's have gone from $1399 to $1769 after the current rebate. The 70-200/2.8 IS is $1699 --AFTER-- the current $200 rebate. We were picking this up for $1399 and $1449 2-3 years ago... Very frustrating. All these companies are jacking up the prices and the used market follows proportionately.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by John Black View Post
    Canon... In 2005/2006 we're buying 135L's for $769'ish after rebate; today $999. The lowly 50/1.4 that was $250'ish after rebate is now $399! $399!!! Can you believe that?!?! 85L's have gone from $1399 to $1769 after the current rebate. The 70-200/2.8 IS is $1699 --AFTER-- the current $200 rebate. We were picking this up for $1399 and $1449 2-3 years ago... Very frustrating. All these companies are jacking up the prices and the used market follows proportionately.
    They are not jacking up prices, from 2005/2006 till now the dollar fell to the yen 20%.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Hank Graber View Post
    I'm not outraged at the pricing. I'm sure it's what they needed to charge for what is for sure a wonderful system. The problem is I don't think anyone will buy it at least not in the pro MF market. That bothers me because now they have put the company at risk. I want them around to keep developing the M and in the hope that who knows they might even develop the small digital reportage camera of the future.

    The SLR market seems to be like a tar pit for them historically.
    Considering DMR and M8 prices the S2 price is in straight line, no surprise to me
    The following is what I posted on another forum in September 2008 :

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinwen; 28.09.2008
    I am an old timer Leica customer, M3, M6, RE, R6 with seven lenses, and I am very mad and dissatisfied to say the least by Leica these last few years because, I have to face it, I was under the illusion they would at last produce a sensible digital camera after so many years.
    This Photokina was a dead line and my disappointment is high.

    But to understand lets go back to the beginning.
    In the film days Leica provided first rate mechanical cameras at very high prices, simple and long lasting, the top premium spent could be justified in that respect, one ten years investment. But still Leica played on it and sometime fool themselves with golden jubilee. The camera business isn't jewellery, a watch can be plain gold casted, not a camera and a plated gold item isn't a jewel.
    Camera manufacturing is no luxury business, but Leica is still in this mindset.
    Leica confused the businesses and mixed up prices.

    Then digital era arose and Leica was sleeping. They finally proposed the DMR, a reserved R8/R9 owners digital back. The thought behind was that every R owners would rush to buy a R9+DMR following their great reputation. Missed ! At the indecent 5K$ for a bulky DMR alone, it didn't fit many. Proof it was a wrong commercial and technical choice, it is discontinued for a long time now and R owners are left behind. Even if Leica faced problems with a supplier, when a concept is good, you find means to produce it. They didn't because it was a failure !

    In fact they fail to understand that digital add “electronic” into the equation, which in return means fast obsolescence, poor reliability, therefore quick turnover and low prices. It also means the second hand market is virtually non existent. Getting back to luxury, watches of value are mechanical, not electronic.

    Then after another long period came the M8, a flawed 5K$ piece of electronic with a very annoying cropping factor. It was that bad that they proposed a special upgrade plan/contract for another 1K to partially correct misconception. We don't hear about it anymore, they propose the M8-2 instead.
    So many customers were waiting for this M digital that it probably sold quite well. Quid of the following M8-2, the ones who wanted one M8 have already bought it, will they plunge into the upgrade for 6K$ ?
    Proof Leica misunderstood the digital market was their declaration the M8 concept was here to last!
    Hey ! They didn't mention the length! They speak of FF M9 now!
    M8 owners are going to cry the day they want to switch to FF M9, because their beautiful M8 will have no resale value. They will need to dig their pockets again for another 6 or 7K$.
    Final joke, Leica present a new 50mm M lens for 9K$, you better have “black holes” type of pocket, deeper than deep. Why did they spent time and money in R&D for such product ? The M9 should have been here at photokina and on the shelves in October if they wanted to be in the wagon !

    Instead, Leica propose the beautiful new S system, probably wonderful, but the entry is 20K$ ! Delivery will be in 10 Months time at best, this is centuries in digital age ! I have a nice and more useful car for that price, right now, is it another subject ?
    OK, let say Leica targets the professional market with this one. From what I read, pros have been cooled by the M8. They wait to see if it is reliable and just don't want to deal with after sales service anymore, they complain a lot about it if you hear them. It took months to recover their brain new flawed camera with no informations of what was going on. This kills a pro market, if something is wrong they need an exchange within 24h, obvious, even amateurs cannot wait for months and deserve at least some attention, you ask for top price give top service in return.

    But these pros didn't wait for Leica and if they needed MF sensor they already have it with the traditional MF brands. And while they applaud to the news, they don't seem prepared to make the switch. Beside the price there is the concept, the S system is fixed back, means fixed sensor, and again this is “electronic”. As soon as an improvements hit the market, they just have to change the back, not the camera. Moreover they can switch to film instantly if nescessary.
    Therefore, the S2 must not cost more than a MF back to be updated each time some useful technology is implemented. They can't renew a 20K$ camera every two years.
    Moreover, the actual economic crisis is going to hit them badly, they will have to be very careful on budget.
    In other words, we amateurs and professionals, all applaud to the beauty but wont buy it.

    M.Kauffman says “R10” is on the way. Great ! Understand you'll have to wait at least a year an a half for a 6 to 7K$ camera with today's technology. (sic !!). Again the R10 should have been here TODAY if not long ago and at a competitive price! We don't care for the bells and whistles but we care about price and when you over shoot the market, when you give one while the competition gives two or more, all your hard work and efforts wont be rewarded. It could have been during mechanical technology time, tho already difficult, but it cannot be now with digital!
    We are waiting for years now for just a FF R6, simple, light, at the right price which is the price of the competitors.

    Leica R customers had to find a way as nothing was coming. Most joined the competition, with just an adapted ring they could use their R lenses, fine. But they also tried and bought the competitors lenses, as many sales lost for Leica and some of these customers are lost may be forever. The worm is in the fruit for a long time now, never under-estimate the competition.
    Even if Leica decided today to concentrate only on lenses manufacturing, the competition didn't wait for them, and they are a step behind. Zeiss is already doing that very well. By the way, notice they don't have much electronic in their lenses, the tendency to add motors, ships and who knows what else is simply a gamble on reliability.

    Sadly this Photokina is no good news for Leica customers and I fear the worst for the brand I kindly regarded.
    Until next spring, planned launching period for the S system, what will be the sales of Leica ? M8-2 and lenses, but it seems quite saturated by the first model and I guess the 9K$ Noctilux won't be a star selling. Will that be enough to survive ?

    Owner of both M and R systems, I refused to slaughter my bank account for a piece of electronic and I never will ! Leica has to land and hear that!

    All the best.

  33. #183
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by tom in mpls View Post
    I'm picking up on an interesting current that is running, without comment, underneath the discussion of the price. That is, how "good" does a camera system need to be? I see comments from professionals that they are not even using their current equipment at it's maximum capabilities. Is there a point beyond which "better" has no real meaning except when pixel peeping? Is there a need for "better" for fashion photography? Commercial, including billboard, photography? Sports? Landscape? If you can't see a difference in the format the photo will be presented in, then who cares?

    I'm willing to be educated that "better" is always "better", but I have been impressed by some comments that lead me to believe this may not be so.

    By the way, I dabbled a bit with Contax MFDB for a while. Took some spectacular pics (luck more than skill), very impressed with what it can do, but for me the awkwardness of the system (how many different batteries do you need?) was a problem, and in the end for this amateur it was too much money to sink into the system. The S2 sounds way cool, but obviously the price is an enormous barrier. However, my question is not about persons of my skill level; it is directed to photo professionals and highly skilled amateurs.
    25mp where DSLRs now probably serve the needs of 98% of photographic requirements. However there is still a place for affordable medium format because it has a different look, can be used with view cameras, and has slightly better per pixel quality due to larger photosites.

    The kew word though is affordable. I think Leica's mistake is that the S2 is a pro spec camera that amateurs can't afford and most pros dont need as there aremore versatile options available at half the price.

    The way the medium format market is collapsing at the moment worries me, because there is a need for a format larger than 35mm but only for a small minority. I have nearly retired my Mamiya ZD since I purchased a Sony A900 and while the ZD is "only" 22mp, it s small example of part of a trend. I'd like a 60mp back but two thoughts haunt me: how much use would it get given as the A900 is so good at almost everything (with stitching an option if I really need higher resolution), and how long before 35mm size sensors hit 35mp or 40mp? On your point of "better is better" its true but there comes a point where a lot of self justification kicks in. No one who has dropped $$$ megabucks on a MFDB wants to believe a $3,000.00 dslr is 90% as good. And that price point is moving downwards: A Nikon D700s is rumoured soon and Sony will shortly launch their A850, an A900 lite with the same senor and most of the features - that's truly 25mp for the masses.

    Its not a foregone conclusion than there will be any MFDB products left in a year or two. If there is, I doubt the S2 will be one of the survivors without a radical price rethink from Leica.

    Quentin

    PS By the way, I wanted to add that the new Hassy CFV back is, by comparison with the S2, an excellent idea because it taps in to the huge installed user base of old Hassy bodies and lenses. Instead of requiring a whole new investment from the ground up, exisiting owners of Hasselblad kit can acquire and use a leading edge new digital back with 39mp resolution. This really ought to help Hassy weather the economic crisis.
    Last edited by Quentin_Bargate; 2nd August 2009 at 02:35. Reason: Im a bad typist :-)
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by tom in mpls View Post
    I'm picking up on an interesting current that is running, without comment, underneath the discussion of the price. That is, how "good" does a camera system need to be? I see comments from professionals that they are not even using their current equipment at it's maximum capabilities. Is there a point beyond which "better" has no real meaning except when pixel peeping? Is there a need for "better" for fashion photography? Commercial, including billboard, photography? Sports? Landscape? If you can't see a difference in the format the photo will be presented in, then who cares?

    I'm willing to be educated that "better" is always "better", but I have been impressed by some comments that lead me to believe this may not be so.
    Quite right Tom, but that argument can also be used with cars (you can't drive above 70mph so why on earth do you need a car which does 150).

    There are all sorts of other boxes than just the 'need' box - It seems to me that the S2 has a very big WANT box - let's face it, it is pretty cool!

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    HI LJ
    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    Jono,
    I agree. My point being that Leica has yet to prove its new system is the best and worth that cost. I still have some faith that it will be able to deliver, but if very few actually buy it, use it and display the results, will that convincing process not take a lot longer?
    Of course you're quite right - although that problem would still exist even if the body was $10,000 - somebody has to take the leap of faith.

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    My M8 is still a favourite camera of mine, and it does turn out some very decent stuff for me, despite the history with it. I just have not found it able to be put into full-time production that I can count on without having my Canons in the bag "just in case". I held off buying a second body or so as back-up, since the price was daunting and I still had to keep another system to deliver things the M8 could not. The S2 is shaping itself into much the same mold with regard to needing another system for other capabilities for me, and probably a lot of other potential shooters. That is one of the reasons I have not jumped back into MF on the digital side, as I still need to support my Canon system where MF cannot deliver. The S2 might have been able to change that game for me up to a point, but it is not even close to being ready there yet, nor is it proven, nor are the prices in line with being able to test the waters, as there is no secondary market with used glass or bodies that I could experiment with. At least the M8 had a huge secondary market in glass that was affordable. This is a different game and market right now.

    LJ
    Oh - you don't need to be professional to have that problem! I've long since given up on the idea of having a 'one system does all'. I used to think it was possible, but it seems that at least three are necessary:
    high res dslr
    m8
    compact.
    If I were to get an S2, it would only be to replace my A900. But I'm not so naive as to think that, if money was not a concern, I would not already have my name down on a list - and I hope I'd make good use of it if I did have one.

    If I feel that way that about it, then lots of other people will as well, and for some of them the money will not be of concern.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    There are all sorts of other boxes than just the 'need' box - It seems to me that the S2 has a very big WANT box - let's face it, it is pretty cool!
    No disagreement there.

    However if demand for S2 is driven by WANT rather than NEED then that defines the target market as a subset of the current Leica market (rather than the pro market) - individuals who want the best and have the means to pay for that. I can't see 1000 bodies a year there, more like a few hundred the first year and then tapering off. If that's the case then they'll have to drop production within two years.
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Lars Vinberg View Post
    No disagreement there.

    However if demand for S2 is driven by WANT rather than NEED then that defines the target market as a subset of the current Leica market (rather than the pro market) ....
    "WANT & NEED...that defines the target market".... that the life work of Edward Bernays .... a lot to be said on that subject.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    HI LJ


    If I were to get an S2, it would only be to replace my A900. But I'm not so naive as to think that, if money was not a concern, I would not already have my name down on a list - and I hope I'd make good use of it if I did have one.

    If I feel that way that about it, then lots of other people will as well, and for some of them the money will not be of concern.
    I think this is the crux of it. But lets face it, money is not the largest concern for many of the people on this forum, otherwise we would all be shooting APS DSLR's (or less expensive). But this is coming to the level where it is a concern even for people for whom money is not a concern, if you will. Obviously there are gradations of this, but where you can find a number of wealthy amateur photographers who might spend 10,000 on a camera and several lenses (M8), there are a lot fewer who will spend 30,000 on a camera and one lens. So you would need: 1. To be serious enough about your photography to want a large, medium format camera like the S2. 2. Have 30,000-50,000 to spend on it. 3. Think that your 30,000-50,000 is better spent on the Leica than on a 50 to 60mp camera from Hassy, Phase, Leaf or Sinar.
    As most other people here, I am skeptical there will be enough of these people. I hope there are though, because I would love to one day buy one from them at half the cost when they move on to the next thing.
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Quite right Tom, but that argument can also be used with cars (you can't drive above 70mph so why on earth do you need a car which does 150).

    There are all sorts of other boxes than just the 'need' box - It seems to me that the S2 has a very big WANT box - let's face it, it is pretty cool!
    The problem with that analogy is that the "other cars" available at the S2 price point can do 250 mph and have already proved they can.

    The proof is in the pudding, not the "cool factor" ... cool factors fade with the very next innovation ... which with digital is pretty quick.

    So far we haven't tasted the pudding ... except a few fashion shots in the hands of a pro using all kinds of mixed lighting that frankly don't look any better than stuff I've seen done with a 22 meg MFD. We'll just have to wait to see the real pudding tastes like.

    So, IMO, Leica's best bet would be to get the S2 into rental places at a special subsidized rental fee and do a little "guerilla marketing" ... or give their key dealers some loaner units for hot prospects. If the pudding is THAT tasty, let the prospect taste it first.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by tom in mpls View Post
    I'm picking up on an interesting current that is running, without comment, underneath the discussion of the price. That is, how "good" does a camera system need to be? I see comments from professionals that they are not even using their current equipment at it's maximum capabilities. Is there a point beyond which "better" has no real meaning except when pixel peeping? Is there a need for "better" for fashion photography? Commercial, including billboard, photography? Sports? Landscape? If you can't see a difference in the format the photo will be presented in, then who cares?

    I'm willing to be educated that "better" is always "better", but I have been impressed by some comments that lead me to believe this may not be so.

    By the way, I dabbled a bit with Contax MFDB for a while. Took some spectacular pics (luck more than skill), very impressed with what it can do, but for me the awkwardness of the system (how many different batteries do you need?) was a problem, and in the end for this amateur it was too much money to sink into the system. The S2 sounds way cool, but obviously the price is an enormous barrier. However, my question is not about persons of my skill level; it is directed to photo professionals and highly skilled amateurs.
    This is pretty observant.

    Until retiring from advertising a few months ago, I had the opportunity to work with literally hundreds of professional photographers both locally and nationally ... shooting everything from cars, to food, to fashion, to lifestyle, and situational editorial type work. Not many of them were all wrapped up in their gear and obsessing with minute differences. Form follows function was the reoccurring theme. Rarely over-kill, just enough to do the job.

    Look at our fearless leaders of this forum ... Jack has a higher spec system than Guy who makes his living with photography. Guy has what he needs to do the work he knows he has to get done. There is a line where cost overwhelms profit and crossing the line jeopardizes the business.

    The most amazing thing was that I almost always had better gear then the pros I hired did ... even the top national shooters. In fact, many of the people here on this forum that shoot for fun or are semi-pros have better stuff than most full time pros I've shot with. When more was needed, they rented it along with a tech person to run it ... at my expense of course

    The pros that did own higher end gear, used it diversely ... quite a few needing the full T/S of a view camera one day for studio work, then the next for location stuff using the same back on the 645 camera ... or as was happening more and more using a high meg 35mm DSLR depending on final applications.

    In a fat economy we tend to indulge our personal whims and wants ... in a down one, we get real as far as what is really needed, and what is just wasted in the end. Cost to end value is the decision scenario.

  41. #191
    Administrator Bob's Avatar
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    This is a very good point.
    Other than a few lenses which I hope to add over time, I am pretty satisfied with my current gear.
    Well,maybe I will add a "pocket camera", but other than that, I would need to have a compelling reason to spend that much on a new system.
    Right now, I need to work hard so that my skill get up to what my gear is capable of.
    Most of the areas of improvement that I am looking forward to are incremental improvements in processing software, not a new system.
    -bob

  42. #192
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Sigh, just putting off the purchase of a think tank Airport International with a crazy () price tag of all of $329. I've spent enough on gear this season (far from anything extravagent, flash bracket, custom cables and hopefully soon - radio poppers) and this winter is looking to be as dead as last winter was for all that I've had a good summer season. Money is better spent on advertising. When you're making business purchases it becomes a very different kettle of fish than when you're buying yourself treats...
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

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  43. #193
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    It's 10 pages since David Farkas opened this thread and let it run without further input.

    David - Most of us here have probably followed your enthusiasm for the S2 project [many of us will have read your blog]. I'm sure you are still reading - fancy sharing your thoughts with us?

    ............. Chris

  44. #194
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    I was trying to remember back to the days before internet forums on how amateurs or ambitious pros made equipment purchasing decisions. I'm certainly not the expert here but my guess is that much of the information available came trickling down through word of mouth, a few printed publications that contained reviews, and dealer input.

    But now, it would seem to me that the kinds of discussions like this very thread are shaping buyer's decisions as much, if not more, than any other influence. Since this camera is still vaporware, it's impossible to make any kind of fair judgement as to whether it will actually fill a need, or for that matter, a want. Still, a company introducing a camera these days would be downright stupid to ignore the market feedback they can access themselves without any investment other than the time it takes to read the posts.

    As someone on the sidelines of professional photography, I listen most to those who are on the front lines. I hear the majority of them saying (here and elsewhere) that existing MF equipment or high-end DSLRs are more than adequate for the demands of their respective markets for significantly less money. As a consequence of all the posts and opinions being shared in the various forums, I feel a sudden wave of calm seeping in. I feel a sense of relief that I will no longer put myself through the mental rigors and financial maneuverings necessary to purchase the S2. I can relax and enjoy my existing equipment while observing what transpires with the S2 and the fine company that brought it to life.

    I'm willing to accept that the forum reaction to this new product might be inaccurate or in some other way misleading, but I have come to trust it and now make assessments of new equipment based on the various opinions offered by respected posters.

    What's unusual to some degree is the sheer volume of the negative reaction to the price. It is nearly universal. Most of the time there are almost as many positives for new gear as negatives—positives that ultimately generate a groundswell of enthusiasm. I have watched (and resisted the impulse to make the purchase plunge) while people have pre-evaluted, bought, tested, and then sold, a bunch of different systems like the Nikon (300, 700, D3, etc.), Sony A900, G1, the DP(s), Ep1, etc. I have never seen a reaction to a camera price like this one, especially before significant examples or real-world results were available.

    So thank you everyone for making my life easier and my wallet a bit safer from my own inner wantbeast.

  45. #195
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    "Treats" Ben?" ... perfect!

    When I get this "I wanna, but better notta", it perversely justifies spending a few bucks on some small lollipop of a photo trinket ... like I went ahead and got the second SB900 for my Nikon to quell the spendthrift in me.

  46. #196
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Here is the secret for Leica and it is real simple . The cost of the 70mm put this at 34k which simply is out of reach. Go back to the kit pricing like Hassy and Phase and give us the lens . If it was 24k with lens than half these conversations would end. The issue is simply this we are being nickeled and dime to death here and I think at least for me said screw them. Going over 5k for lenses is also a major hit bring that down to Hassy and Mamiya levels say 4800 for there top lens. Really the answer is this in many folks feel Leica went about 20-30 percent over the top and perception is going to kill it. There is nothing special about this sensor but the same as a P40+ or a new Hassy 50 sensor. Lenses are not going to make that much of a difference as Leica is marketing and we all know this. Just look at the stuff us Mamiya shooters take with some marginal old lenses from 10 years ago. It's feeling we are getting ripped off and that is the crux of it all.

    Just take the Mamiya 150mm D lens at 3100.00 there really is nothing out that can touch it or even improve it to make it even better. It's 3100 which is reasonable. Same with some of Hassy lenses they are reasonable and affordable and folks buy them. There is no secret here but keeping the outlay at prices people can afford. I don't think anyone expected it at giveaway prices unless Leica took a completely different stance and really tried to penetrate the MF world hard and really lower the body price below Hassy and Mamiya and tried to take over the market. Which personally I think they should have done but the worst issue is they completely ignored the forums and what we all wanted and thought would be good for them. Back to that arrogance comment, I just can't get away from that and I believe a lot of folks feel Leica just does not want to listen at all. At this point they are doing me a favor, it's off my radar and for folks like me that shoot like I do it may have been a perfect setup. BUT I will not be sand bagged into this and strain what little money over a reasonable and prudent purchase price. Bottom line Leica blew it here but they can still save the day but again they are too stubborn to accept they priced this wrong.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  47. #197
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    It's feeling we are getting ripped off and that is the crux of it all.
    Feeling? Just a feeling? At these prices, we ARE getting ripped off (if we buy into their latest scheme).

    LJ

    P.S. If Leica did include the 70mm lens as part of a kit, the rest of the lens line-up would still look prohibitively expensive. That is why I have said before, if they want to get this system into the market, they need to offer it at a "special introductory offer" level, or bundle all the glass or several pieces of glass together and keep all of that at price point south of $30k. That is NOT dreaming. That is probably the only thing that would shake enough people loose to consider this. On the other hand, maybe there are that magical 1000 buyers over the next year that will help Leica prolong the agony of folding up the tent.
    Last edited by LJL; 2nd August 2009 at 07:20.

  48. #198
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by John Black View Post
    Canon... In 2005/2006 we're buying 135L's for $769'ish after rebate; today $999. The lowly 50/1.4 that was $250'ish after rebate is now $399! $399!!! Can you believe that?!?! 85L's have gone from $1399 to $1769 after the current rebate. The 70-200/2.8 IS is $1699 --AFTER-- the current $200 rebate. We were picking this up for $1399 and $1449 2-3 years ago... Very frustrating. All these companies are jacking up the prices and the used market follows proportionately.
    Of course much of these increases are due to Canon (et al) raising prices to finally compensate for the pathetically anemic U.S. dollar. As one who works in import/export I can attest to the problems caused by our weak currency situation.

  49. #199
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    Feeling? Just a feeling? At these prices, we ARE getting ripped off (if we buy into their latest scheme).

    LJ

    P.S. If Leica did include the 70mm lens as part of a kit, the rest of the lens line-up would still look prohibitively expensive. That is why I have said before, if they want to get this system into the market, they need to offer it at a "special introductory offer" level, or bundle all the glass or several pieces of glass together and keep all of that at price point south of $30k. That is NOT dreaming. That is probably the only thing that would shake enough people loose to consider this. On the other hand, maybe there are that magical 1000 buyers over the next year that will help Leica prolong the agony of folding up the tent.
    I think maybe I was being nice but agree. 10k over a very excellent Hassy or Phase setup is just over the top. The image quality no matter how you slice it will NOT be any better
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  50. #200
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I think maybe I was being nice but agree. 10k over a very excellent Hassy or Phase setup is just over the top. The image quality no matter how you slice it will NOT be any better
    Guy,
    Even Leica is saying "as good as" for comparisons with the 39-50MP backs, so "better" is not even in their evaluation.

    LJ

    P.S. I know we all should be a bit more "nice" as you put it, and I apologize for some of my expressed outrage, but seriously, this pricing and marketing is insulting to sensibilities.

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