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Thread: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

  1. #201
    Subscriber Member Georg Baumann's Avatar
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I think maybe I was being nice but agree. 10k over a very excellent Hassy or Phase setup is just over the top. The image quality no matter how you slice it will NOT be any better
    +1

    then again, for the 10k over, you have to take the seals into consideration. How many seals did we have, 39?

    That would be 256.41 per seal, just in line with Leica pricing strategy. Of course, they are not normal rubber seals, they are chewed soft by Koalas under the age of 5.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    Guy,
    Even Leica is saying "as good as" for comparisons with the 39-50MP backs, so "better" is not even in their evaluation.

    LJ

    P.S. I know we all should be a bit more "nice" as you put it, and I apologize for some of my expressed outrage, but seriously, this pricing and marketing is insulting to sensibilities.
    No need to be nice though, it's what you feel and many others feel the same way. Talk about a ****ty way to introduce a new product when all your potential customers think your nuts and are insulted by your pricing scheme . That is not is a good way to run a company.

    Seriously as a MF shooter that already has a system in place and has tested every Phase back made extensively, I feel my intelligence in this market is insulted by this. Trying to figure out what the hell I am missing here. Sure it has some nice features but none of them are revolutionary.
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris C View Post
    It's 10 pages since David Farkas opened this thread and let it run without further input.

    David - Most of us here have probably followed your enthusiasm for the S2 project [many of us will have read your blog]. I'm sure you are still reading - fancy sharing your thoughts with us?

    ............. Chris
    I spoke to David at length yesterday afternoon and, while I don't feel it's my place to speak for him, I think I can share one bit of information without betraying any confidences. Not one single person on his extensive waiting list has cancelled their order following the pricing announcement... and it's not just a couple of people either... it's a bunch.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2



    Quote Originally Posted by Georg Baumann View Post
    +1

    Of course, they are not normal rubber seals, they are chewed soft by Koalas under the age of 5.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Canon and Nikon (at least in the UK) have pro services justified by amount of kit owned and pro usage. For canon it's 2 DSLR's and 3 L lenses and proof that you're a pro. You then get CPS service in all of europe and probably worldwide. 3 day turnaround on repairs, loan of equipment if it takes longer or if you want to try out a new lens, free CPS magazine every quarter and free seminars where they hand out loads of free and worthwhile goodies.

    I know it now costs in the US but the most expensive service is still probably better and faster than this platinum whatsit, includes a whole bunch of very impressive goodies and is about $500 for everything.

    I assume NPS is similar.

    So let me ask you, couple of 5D mkII's or even 1Ds mkIII's. 21 megapixels and probably all that a client could ever want. Cheap (stupidly in comparison) to buy, pro service, rental everywhere, usage of almost any lens that you could ever want or need, replacement cameras and lenses in every single city, easy to borrow from friends, etc, etc. As a business decision you have to ask what you will achieve with spending more. What that money will buy you in extra revenue. Can anyone begin to suggest that in this day and age a business can justify a system like this from a revenue perspective? Heck even just owning a MFDB is getting to be questionable when your life will be so much easier, your processing faster and your peace of mind greater - using a modern top level DSLR.

    I remember when I was thinking about changing to Nikon last year. My wife asked me 'what extra will shooting Nikon add to your business'. The answer was not revenue, just ease of use in my own case. At the time it was a lot of money for ease of use and I didn't do it - just in time before the economy crashed and my work dried up horribly for 6 months.

    I have no doubt that the MFT graphs are incredible, the look spectacular. But unless your clients will pay more for it (in this economy?) then you are throwing money in the garbage of your own snobbishness.
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris C View Post
    It's 10 pages since David Farkas opened this thread and let it run without further input.

    David - Most of us here have probably followed your enthusiasm for the S2 project [many of us will have read your blog]. I'm sure you are still reading - fancy sharing your thoughts with us?

    ............. Chris
    Sure Chris.... why not?

    The reasons for my absence are twofold.

    1) I have been extremely busy during the last few days. I spent all of Thursday, Friday, and Saturday touching base with my S2 pre-order list. I just haven't had the time to read everything or post. In fact, I've only been able to get through 2/3rds of my list.

    2) Even if I did have the time, many are so entrenched in their viewpoints that little or nothing I might have said would really matter. My input would be conveniently dismissed as "marketing hype" or "bs" or whatever.

    That being said, I'm sure some here are interested to know how my conversations over the last few days have gone. Maybe I live in a bubble, but my reality has not coincided with what is happening online. Of all my pre-orders, no one was insulted, offended, shocked, etc. by the S2 pricing. In fact, no one backed out or cancelled due to price. All those that were interested in getting an S2, are still excited to get one in October. There are a couple who will wait for the 30-90 to be available. Everyone wants to see final specs (within a week or two) and see real images, just as I do. But, the price was expected. Part of this was due to my comminicating a realistic price for last 6-9 months in all my conversations. I told anyone who asked that the price would be about $20K for the body and about $4-6K for the lenses. I've seen the Euro go from about $1.25 to the current $1.43. Leica told me that at anything above $1.35, they'd have to adjust pricing. So, the 10-15% higher price for the body was somewhat expected.

    Leica has clearly stated that fashion, beauty, advertising, and commercial are the main target markets, as well as advanced amateurs who want the best balance of ease, handling, and image quailty. In reviewing my list, I'd say that Leica has so far done a good job, as I have representation from all of these specialties, as well as high-end professional landscape photographers (those shooting for coffee-table books and grand-format commercial prints sold through galleries and/or corporate decorators).

    There appears to be some confusion over the warranty and add-on service packages. To clarify, the body and lenses come with a standard 12-month warranty (same as a Phase Classic warranty or standard Hasselblad warranty). The service packages are optional add-ons just like Hassy's Camera Care Plan or Phase's Value Added Warranty, which also cost several thousand $$.

    The Premium Service Package includes:
    - Extra year of transferable warranty
    - Camera swap service during the first three months (no repairs, just a new camera the next day)
    - Special phone hotline with dedicated S2 specialist
    - guaranteed spare parts availibility for 6 years
    - 30% discount on non-warranty repairs (ex. dropping camera)

    The Platinum Service Package includes:
    (same as above), plus...
    - free of charge maintenance including one shutter and/or central shutter replacement (doesn't have to be broken)
    - free of charge loaner service during repairs

    Keep in mind, also, that customers who purchase from me can get loaners or rentals from me at no charge regardless of service level, and can reach me 24/7 for help and support. That is just being a good dealer, rather than a box mover. I'd say that the Premium package is plenty for most individual shooters. The Platinum is geared more towards rental studios and busy top-tier professionals. $495 for lenses and $1,495 for the body isn't really that unreasonable for the Premium option.

    Yes, Lightroom will come bundled with the camera. There will also be tethering software that can control all functions of the camera, including camera focus, all settings, etc. The application doesn't do RAW conversion, but rather controls the camera and deposits images in whatever folder you choose. Hot-folder-capable applications like LR, Aperture, or even C1 can be used - this is the user's choice.

    As to why Leica didn't bundle the 70mm with the camera, you might be interested to learn that only about 50% of my customers chose to order the 70mm with the camera. The fact is that everyone is different. How would you feel about being required to buy an M8.2 with a 35mm Summicron? Sure, a certain percentage would like it (like me), but most would prefer to pick their own lens package. Same with the S2.

    Regarding switching from other systems, I have taken trade-ins on two H3DII-39s, one H3DII-31, one H3DII-50, a D3x, and many other assorted items. Other customers have already sold H3DII-39 systems, at least one P45+, and Canon/Nikon systems to fund the S2. So, obviously, for these folks, there is enough reason to switch platforms.

    The reality is that we will see final specs within the next week or two and images before camera availibility. Of course, no one wants to drop $30K on a system without seeing images. But, most know what to expect:

    - Lenses without compromise that can be shot at any aperture (not just f/11)
    - The smallest, lightest, fastest MF system and the only one with weather sealing in a fully modern body
    - 1/500th of a sec flash sync with CS lenses and 1/400th of a sec max shutter with FP shutter (easy as flipping a switch)
    - Large, bright, hi-res LCD
    - Accurate AF (that doesn't require a 3x loupe)
    - Minimal mirror slap

    If you've handled the S2 for any amount of time and have experience with other MF systems, you can immediately tell a difference. Since switching to SSDs in my new laptop, I can't ever imaging going back to a platter-based HDD. It would be painful. Likewise, I think that once photographers start using the S2 they will have a very difficult time going back to other systems. Maybe they get the job done, but not as smoothly and seamlessly as they might with the S2.

    As Jono and others have said, if the IQ is there (in addition to the ergos), the camera will indeed sell. And, sell very well at that. Leica's imminent demise is grossly overstated.

    I am not trying to "sell" you guys on the S2. I honestly think that the camera has done a great job of selling itself already. It is not for everyone, just as a $40K P65+ isn't for everyone, or an $11K Profoto Pro-8a power pack, or an $11K Profoto 10' Para Umbrella, etc. I know that many would like to have a chance to use the S2, and would like the price to be under $15K. I'd like a Porsche Cayman S to be the same price as an Accord, but I doubt going on a Porsche forum and convincing everyone there that the Cayman should sell for $25K is going to change anything. A Porsche is a Porsche and priced as such. Likewise, the S2 offers a certain value proposition to photographers and is also priced accordingly.

    David
    David Farkas
    Leica Store Miami

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Sure it has some nice features but none of them are revolutionary.
    Guy, I believe the ease of use is huge. DSLR's are a breeze compared to the MFDB systems. If prices were comparable, it would be a no-brainer for me if I were to dive back into larger format. In my opinion, this integration IS the revolution. However, this still begs the question about current pricing.

    On another note, some are pointing out that with MFDB you only need to upgrade the DB, while keeping your existing body. I consider the S2 to be a large format back that includes a new, up to date body for "free". Since the cost of a MF body seems minor compared to the cost of the DB, why not "give away" a new body with the purchase of the DB? Isn't that what Phase does? Or, think of it as getting a brand new body with the purchase of the S2 back. And what you get is the best integrated body/back system available in the larger format arena (I think).
    Last edited by tom in mpls; 2nd August 2009 at 08:37.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    I think essentially Phase gives you a body and lens for 2k over the back price. Which is a pretty big cost savings than buying separate. I have no issues with the AFDIII myself except for the slight shutter lag other than that I can shoot just like any DSLR in style. Just a little slower with my back though. The P40+ is a lot faster shooting times.

    But it is no secret almost every Phase camera owner would like to see a new body which i expect to come at any point now.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by tom in mpls View Post
    Guy, I believe the ease of use is huge. DSLR's are a breeze compared to the MFDB systems.
    In what ways specifically do you feel a DSLR is "easier" to use than a modern, automated MF camera with DB?
    Jack
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Well Thanks for the answer David Farkas. I was interested in a S2 and I am still in a way. On the other hand the price really killed the interest. Why ? Well I have my P65 and it works great. It has by far the best file quality I have ever seen. I'm pretty sure that the actual file quality will be less from the S2. Or certianly not better. In the end I would never sell the P65 for a S2 System. Now that leaves my Canon SLR System. A 25K System of gear, which I could sell, but then I would be missing stuff like a long zoom like the 70.200 a long lens like the 300 and 500, but more important a high ISO performance. I do believe that the Leica S2 will have great ISO 400 and 800, but that is not enough. My P65 does amazing ISO 400. So one stop better noise isn't good enough. However, if the S2 can deliver clean or better let's say really usable ISO 1600, than I perhaps will start thinking about this system again. As long as the 30-90 zoom won't cost 8000 ;-)

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    In what ways specifically do you feel a DSLR is "easier" to use than a modern, automated MF camera with DB?
    2 different battery systems, separate on/off and controls. That was what I had with my Contax. Are other systems better?

    Also, I am wondering if the size, shape, and bulk of the S2 would be an improvement over the MF systems. I did find the Contax was a bit awkward.

    My knowledge of systems other than Contax is limited.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Christopher,

    "As long as the 30-90 zoom won't cost 8000?" It's hard to imagine the lens will be less.

    Steve

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    Christopher,

    "As long as the 30-90 zoom won't cost 8000?" It's hard to imagine the lens will be less.

    Steve
    I fear it already ;-)

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    Subscriber Member Georg Baumann's Avatar
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    I spin prayer wheels in both hands at 65,000 rpm that phase one at least considers a sealed body and lenses for the near fuiture roadmap.

    This, imho, Leica did right!

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by tom in mpls View Post
    2 different battery systems, separate on/off and controls. That was what I had with my Contax. Are other systems better?

    Also, I am wondering if the size, shape, and bulk of the S2 would be an improvement over the MF systems. I did find the Contax was a bit awkward.

    My knowledge of systems other than Contax is limited.
    The H camera uses one battery to drive everything. Works well and last a long time. Controlling things like flash comp on the H is easier than any 35mm DSLR.

    35mm DSLRs have multiple user selected focus points which is an advantage when using fast lenses wide open. They shoot faster as well as ususally focus faster, and have wider and much longer glass available.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    The price in euro for the S2 in Germany is high but not outrageous. At Meister Camera the S2 is listed for 18,600 euro (22.200 + Platinum Service). The lens prices are 3600 euro to 5280 euro (4680 to 6000 euro w/CS). This includes 19% vat.

    For US customers the week dollar is a big problem.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Yes, and while I am not going to make myself popular with this comment, to be honest I am happy to finally see a company price things the same way everywhere. The weak Dollar is a problem I am unhappy to see imported here.

    Additionally, many companies take advantage of European buyers' willingness to pay more by jacking up prices. Adobe is a notorious example, with Photoshop CS4 costing about $600 in the States, and typically €1100 in Germany. Absolutely outrageous.

    One thing puzzles me a bit: of all the people in this thread, were any actually on the waiting list for the S2?
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Well yes, it is great that they kept the S2 under 20k Eurs, that is the only reason I'm still thinking about it from time to time. I wasn't on a waiting list, but I talked to my dealer in Germany. The reason behind it was, that I would not be interested in a S2 before more lenses and very good and deep reviews were out. Before making any call whatsoever I want to see images from the 30-90, and because that won't happen for some time I don't have to make any serious decisions right now.

    I think there was a 70-80% chance that I would by an S2, but these prices narrowed it down to around 10-20. I have to see some stunning reasons, like very good ISO 1600 and a few other things before I really reconsider buying one next year.

    Oh and if i lived in the US or UK, I wouldn't even think about buying one. I know its the $, still it is way to much money.

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    Senior Member Quentin_Bargate's Avatar
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    I spoke to David at length yesterday afternoon and, while I don't feel it's my place to speak for him, I think I can share one bit of information without betraying any confidences. Not one single person on his extensive waiting list has cancelled their order following the pricing announcement... and it's not just a couple of people either... it's a bunch.
    Bit early to cancel, even assuming they are all aware (as David suggests they are) of the price announcement. Let's see where they are at when the cash has to hit the counter

    I am not trying to "sell" you guys on the S2. I honestly think that the camera has done a great job of selling itself already. It is not for everyone, just as a $40K P65+ isn't for everyone, or an $11K Profoto Pro-8a power pack, or an $11K Profoto 10' Para Umbrella, etc. I know that many would like to have a chance to use the S2, and would like the price to be under $15K. I'd like a Porsche Cayman S to be the same price as an Accord, but I doubt going on a Porsche forum and convincing everyone there that the Cayman should sell for $25K is going to change anything. A Porsche is a Porsche and priced as such. Likewise, the S2 offers a certain value proposition to photographers and is also priced accordingly.
    Hmm that reads like an appeal to snob value and exclusivity, where price becomes a reason in itself to buy something others cannot afford.
    Last edited by Quentin_Bargate; 2nd August 2009 at 11:00.
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    So, from Meister I could buy 2 M8 "White Editiions", one with the 21 Lux and one with the 24 Lux for 24,000 euro or I could get the S2 (body only) and the 70mm (no CS) for 22,200 euro.






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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post
    Hmm that reads like an appeal to snob value and exclusivity, where price becomes a reason in itself to buy something others cannot afford.
    Quentin,

    My comments were not intended to appeal to snobbey and exclusivity, and none of my conversations with customers have gone this way either. Everyone looking seriously at the S2 is doing so becuase of the unique performance and usability that it offers. They understand that price is not the only factor in overall value.

    David
    David Farkas
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post
    Bit early to cancel, even assuming they are all aware (as David suggests they are) of the price announcement. Let's see where they are at when the cash has to hit the counter



    Hmm that reads like an appeal to snob value and exclusivity, where price becomes a reason in itself to buy something others cannot afford.
    Great points, Quentin. I was thinking the same thing, but figured my comments at this point would just piss folks off I would not even consider putting my name on a waiting list until I saw some real output and had some real prices to think about. We got the prices, and are still waiting for the output. If folks really think the Leica prices are competitive and in line, good wishes to you all. Seriously. Regardless of exchange rates, etc., to me they still seem over the top, and anybody that gets conned into buying through the "snob appeal".....well.....I better stop now or wind up getting banned or something foolish on my part

    LJ

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    Everyone looking seriously at the S2 is doing so becuase of the unique performance and usability that it offers.
    I am curious about their field tests where they proofed the unique performance and the usability.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    WADR David, while it was unintentional, the analogy (which is how it comes across) that the S2 is a 'Porsche Cayenne' and a Hassy39/Phase 40+ (or if you're in Solms, the Hassy 3DII-50 I guess) a 'Honda Accord' won't do a whole lot to win folks over....

    Just sayin' ....

    Having owned Bimmers (4 and 2 wheeled variants), Porsche, Ducatis, etc - personally I kinda like my Accord (and my KTMs) since I went thru my pre-mid-life "WTF am I spending so much money on a $%^& car ?" mode. There comes that tipping point when cold hard logic just kicks you in the ***, you wake up and start using the common sense that your mother kept trying to drill into your head ...
    Last edited by robmac; 2nd August 2009 at 14:29.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    Quentin,

    My comments were not intended to appeal to snobbey and exclusivity, and none of my conversations with customers have gone this way either. Everyone looking seriously at the S2 is doing so becuase of the unique performance and usability that it offers. They understand that price is not the only factor in overall value.

    David
    I'm in the market for a new camera system and have been leaning in the direction of a tech camera setup like Alpa or possibly the new Swiss Arca RM3D. According to my fuzzy math, the cost of a tech camera setup that meets my individual needs is in the same general ballpark as the cost of an S2 system. Yes, the Leica is a lot of money but it just doesn't seem that unreasonable to me Plus, I'm coming from the perspective of having bought one of the first professional level publicly available DSLRs (this was over 10 years ago and it cost me over $20,000 for just the 2 megapixel body that seemed to make a sport out of moire) At the time, I was pretty excited because the entire monthly payment was a tax writeoff and still only cost a fraction of what my film + polaroid costs were for the month (and no more trips to the lab) Fast forward just a decade later and now it's possible to get an exotic sports car like the S2 for about the same price as my old digital clunker? From my perspective, this is just a mind-blowing advance in available tools for photographers.

    Who knows? I could be wrong, but maybe some of the hostility towards the pricing of the S2 is due to the fact that the costs are not broken up. It's psychological. For example, let's imagine that I bid a photo job and am going to want $10,000 total. I don't just draw up a bill for 10 grand and hand it to the client...I break it up into all bunches of tiny little pieces....300 for this....400 for that....something for day rate etc. In the end, it all adds up to 10 grand but for some reason that type of pricing works better than if I just give a single total. Maybe part of the hostility towards the S2 pricing is precisely because the pricing of the body is integrated with the sensor and there isn't any fuzzy math to confuse customers with Sorry if that's a funky explanation, but maybe some people will understand where I'm going with this comparison. I don't have any suggestions for Leica to do things differently, I'm just pointing out that might be some reason for the hostility.

    Anyhow, good luck with the camera sales and I hope Leica does well. Maybe it's just me, but I don't really see any class envy issues or anything when it comes to cameras. To me, they're just tools.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Rob, we've said our piece. From this point on people's wallets will do the voting. Leica has alot to deliver - the camera, stable firmware, trouble-free components such as the sensor, RAW processing software (will LightRoom be "good enough"?), the lenses, etc., etc. If the system is stable, relatively trouble free and delivers a file quality that some surpasses its perceived peers, then Leica might have a decent chance.

    Regardless of price, and speaking as a M8 owner - there's no way I'd be an early adopter. No, no, no... For me this is S2 chapter is over. Now we're waiting until October for the next chapter - the hands on reports, etc.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Hey John. From a business case perspective I find the S2 roll-out fascinating. That said, you're quite right.

    As David said, us or anyone else wailing away on price, strategy, etc ain't gonna change matters any. Leica's made their big bet. While the IQ will unquestionably be great (as it is from a Hassy or Phamiya, etc.) there are a LOT of rivers they need to forge to pull this sucker off. It will be fascinating to see if they can do it.
    Last edited by robmac; 2nd August 2009 at 14:03.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by tom in mpls View Post
    2 different battery systems, separate on/off and controls. That was what I had with my Contax. Are other systems better?
    My Phase/Mamiya is the same way two switches and two differing batteries. But honestly, it takes me all of one second to press the back's on button, and it makes no nevermind to mind how many spare batteries I carry. I frankly do not see how these two issues combined constitute a DSLR being "hugely more convenient" to use...
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    maybe for some people a S2 could replace a DSLR-system and a MF-system. For those the price might be ok.
    I have no idea how much of the overall cost of a pro are camera-hardware-write off. Is it THE cost factor?
    Lets say you use the camera 3 years...and then you can sell it for 5k, that makes 23-5=18 makes 6k per year makes 500 per month (for body only), makes 250 after tax.
    Now for a Hassy or Phase you get it for maybe 8000 less, so you save 2700 per year, 230 per month, 115 $ per month after tax.

    I find the S2 too expensive as well, on the other side I believe that the neverending price battle isnt good either. In a short term customers take advantage of low prices but in a long term companies will disappear, they will also start having cost/price a more important development factor than innovation and technology, they will not only have to cut down production cost but also R&D cost.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    [QUOTE=Mike M;122370]I'm in the market for a new camera system and have been leaning in the direction of a tech camera setup like Alpa or possibly the new Swiss Arca RM3D. According to my fuzzy math, the cost of a tech camera setup that meets my individual needs is in the same general ballpark as the cost of an S2 system.

    Hi Mike,
    I'm curious as to why, if you're considering a tech camera setup like the Alpa or possibly Arca Swiss RM3D you'd even consider the S2? Please explain how the Leica can do what the tech cameras can do? I must be missing something here. This isn't just about money.

    Those considering the S2 will more than likely be moving over from some other medium format system. They'll have to take an incredible financial beating in terms of what they can get for their used Phase/Mamiya/Sinar/Hassy etc setup as these things depreciate faster than an SUV the moment they're sold. One has to add that loss to the cost of the S2 system to get a more accurate price as to what the "real" cost of migrating to Leica is, and weigh that coat against any real "visible" IQ improvements the Leica may provide.

    If Canon or Nikon were doing what Leica is proposing, the rental houses would be stocked very quickly and there would be no shortage of repair facilities where problems could be addressed in a "timely" manner. The small size of Leica makes this an entirely different ballgame. It would probably take a full four months (or more) of S2 production just to properly stock rental houses and pro camera stores so they have what Nikon or Canon could supply in a week or two, simply because of the size of the "big boys."

    And given the problems with the M8 (some went through 3-4 bodies before they found one that worked properly) and the 16 months I waited for an APO lens to be fixed properly (3 trips to Solms)... can you imagine how many full time technicians will be needed to address the issues of a new camera such as the S2, given Leica's recent track record? Can pro's who are getting good service from Hassy/Phase etc afford the wait, if and when something goes wrong?

    Given the "wait and see" period most sensible S2 prospects will embrace, how long can they wait before the "fixed" sensor technology of the S2 becomes outdated?

    Finally, given the demands high megapixel sensors place on the entire image chain, heres a question for those who shoot with high meg MF backs: what percentage of your shots that are destined for large print output are shot hand held vs tripod mounted? I'd be interested in this piece of information as I know that I see a significant difference in sharpness (read: ability to print large) in tripod mounted shots I take with my 10 megapixel DMR with APO glass vs the same shots taken hand held. I'm a pretty steady shooter... but the tripod beats me every time and I use it often when large output is the goal.

    If tripods are used more often than not, is the SLR-like form of the S2 really such an advantage? How much hand holding are you going to do with this system, given that there is no image stabilization?

    There really is a lot more than just cost at stake.

    Lawrence

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    I find the S2 too expensive as well, on the other side I believe that the neverending price battle isnt good either. In a short term customers take advantage of low prices but in a long term companies will disappear, they will also start having cost/price a more important development factor than innovation and technology, they will not only have to cut down production cost but also R&D cost.
    Probably a number of folks would agree with you here. However, nobody has really explained just what new R&D or innovation has gone into the S2. Nothing in there has not already been out and used by nearly every other manufacturer. So maybe it is "new" and "innovative" for Leica, but surely not the rest of the industry. They may have designed and built the S2 from the ground up, but somebody else is making the sensor, somebody else is providing the Maestro chips and programming, etc. The weather seals, though really nice and needed, are pretty standard on top end DSLRs and have been for some time. The AF, which Leica "invented" still only handles one point, not something like the 45 that DSLRs can manage. The list goes on. My point being that there is nothing really "new" in the S2. The design is more 35mm DSLR, but falls short of those capabilities. That is fine, as one does gain a bigger sensor and some other features not available on any 35mm DSLR, and maybe a bit better than some deliveries on other MF systems, but I fail to see the innovation. If the innovation is lens design and manufacture, bravo, but why are we not seeing the benefits of that passed down in cheaper lens prices?

    O.K., I am done. As others have said, time to wait to see who ponies up for this once released, and to get some real sample images at other than controlled studio 100 ISO shots, and to learn just what works and does not, including the camera, lenses, service, rental markets, etc., etc.

    LJ

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    [QUOTE=apocolibri;122389]
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike M View Post
    Finally, given the demands high megapixel sensors place on the entire image chain, heres a question for those who shoot with high meg MF backs: what percentage of your shots that are destined for large print output are shot hand held vs tripod mounted?
    100% tripod.
    You add some very valid points to the discussion. The high ISO of the S2 will not be good enough to compensate handhold shooting. Camera shake and high ISO easily cut resolution in halfs.
    37MP:2= 18.5MP = 1Ds3.
    Last edited by thomas; 2nd August 2009 at 15:45.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    Probably a number of folks would agree with you here. However, nobody has really explained just what new R&D or innovation has gone into the S2. Nothing in there has not already been out and used by nearly every other manufacturer.
    I wouldn't underestimate R&D even if you just put together already developped elements in a new mix.
    For example (correct me if I'm wrong) Leica has a super thin plate in front of the sensor and the IR filter is part of the lenses... and, and , and...

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    One thing puzzles me a bit: of all the people in this thread, were any actually on the waiting list for the S2?
    Deafening silence ...

    Lot's of sounds of people havng a hissy fit and taking their toys home though.

    My sentiment is along the same lines as Jono mentioned earlier. If I had the means then I'd want an S2. I don't, but there are MANY out there who can and I don't think that shifting 1000 units worldwide will be a problem at all regardless of the outrage here.

    I note that the same arguments were rolled out & disgust at Nikon with the D3x launch & pricing. Sure it's not in the nose bleed level of the Leica but in the eight months since the launch I note that D3x's aren't the rarified breed that some would have had you believe.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    The whole thing depends on if the entire package lenses, scope of the system, body, quality, and so on and so on are attractive to enough buyers to make it a going concern.
    Tine will tell.
    For me, I have to get my hands on one and shoot with it, so as soon as it shows up in one of my local rental houses, I will take it out for a spin.
    But until then, who knows?
    -bob

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    For R&D anything in the range $2.5 to 5.0M USD is a valid guess. The average loaded cost per employee is ~$200k, so that's only a team 12 to 25 people for 12 months. Consider people have to write firmware, the camera body, optical designers, lens bodies, testing, validate, industrialization, sourcing, marketing... I think those costs could be higher, but if each system generation $10k gross margin, then the break even is 500 units. So with Leica's goal of 1000 units per year, then R&D is somewhere in $5M range, perhaps as high as $10M. No doubt, it's a bold initiative on Leica's part. If it works, I think we can all agree Leica pulled off an amazing feat.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    Sure Chris.... why not?

    The reasons.............................
    David - Many thanks for your reply. I take you at your word and it made interesting, though surprising reading. I live in a totally different photography economy to your waiting list S2 customers and I would have expected them to be backing away from their orders. I hope the camera's files excel and the camera sells - but boy oh boy; in my world of diminishing work, and shrinking rates, photography is barely a Trade and the S2 is utterly unreachable with earnings. Best wishes to you.

    ............. Chris

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    [QUOTE=thomas;122395]
    Quote Originally Posted by apocolibri View Post
    100% tripod.
    You add some very valid points to the discussion. The high ISO of the S2 will not be good enough to compensate handhold shooting. Camera shake and high ISO easily cut resolution in halfs.
    37MP:2= 18.5MP = 1Ds3.

    Once again the biggest BS I have heared so many times. Please don't see that against you personally, I can't just hear that statement anymore. So many people tell me that, but none of these could show me a so called tripod sharpenss. It's more about how you handle your camera.

    You don't need a tripod to get sharo images. I would say for my large prints with the P65 I only use a tripod with my Tech camera. When I use the PhaseOne Camera I would say 80% are handheld. Is there a difference ? NO. Perhaps if you choose a shutter speed around the same as focal length, but doing so would be wrong. I prefer to use something around 2.5. So 45mm should be around 1/125 to 1/200. A 150 would be 1/400-1/800. Always depending on the enviroment. I can tell you that images shot that way will be 100% sharp and even mounting you camera on a huge tripod changes a thing.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    I prefer to use something around 2.5. So 45mm should be around 1/125 to 1/200. A 150 would be 1/400-1/800. Always depending on the enviroment.
    oh well, of course. But these are shutter speeds I virtually never use. With ISO 50 (and at f8, 11 or 16) I use something from 1'' to 1/125''. And 1/250'' or on a very good day maybe 1/125'' is the limit for handheld shooting with the P45 (at least for me). At 1/60'' on tripod you start to see a difference with or without mirror lock on the P45 (either way which lens). This is on the Contax645 that has actually quite a smooth mirror slap.
    Be that as it may: the slightest vibration blur is limiting resolution seriously... and that is simply true, not BS.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    [QUOTE=Christopher;122453]
    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post


    Once again the biggest BS I have heared so many times. Please don't see that against you personally, I can't just hear that statement anymore. So many people tell me that, but none of these could show me a so called tripod sharpenss. It's more about how you handle your camera.

    You don't need a tripod to get sharo images. I would say for my large prints with the P65 I only use a tripod with my Tech camera. When I use the PhaseOne Camera I would say 80% are handheld. Is there a difference ? NO. Perhaps if you choose a shutter speed around the same as focal length, but doing so would be wrong. I prefer to use something around 2.5. So 45mm should be around 1/125 to 1/200. A 150 would be 1/400-1/800. Always depending on the enviroment. I can tell you that images shot that way will be 100% sharp and even mounting you camera on a huge tripod changes a thing.

    It always makes me laugh when you see someone struggling with a tripod outside with the wind blowing the vegetation around

    And if the S2 shutter really does have that much less slap . . . and if the ISO 800 really is okay . . . .

    Of course, it still all boils down to whether it delivers or not.

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    David
    Thanks for chipping in with your long post. I'm still confused as to why people didn't realise what the price was going to be - it really was obvious, both from your posts and from information from Leica.

    I can understand people not wanting to pay for it (I'm not going to for sure). But I can't understand all the indignant outrage - It's only a camera after all - you don't like the price . . . you walk away. Leica's future depends on individuals seeing a benefit, and the benefits seem obvious to me (even if a P65 does give you a 'better file').

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Jono, as far as I can figure out, the actual customers and the outraged people are non-overlapping sets, which I find really weird. Why get all outraged about something which you aren't buying? It is like the storm in a teacup over the Nikon D3x price. Canon has had the same price for years and years for their pro FF body, but when Nikon does it, all hell breaks loose. To be honest, I can't be bothered arguing this any more.

    The price is almost exactly what it was going to be all along. I am sorry that the American financial system has screwed up the price for Americans, but that really isn't Leica's responsibility.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    I think a lot of people would like to buy a Leica - because anyone who has ever shot with Leica lenses - loves them. However perhaps many were hoping for a lower than Hasselblad and Phase entry price - hence some disappointment.

    Personally, I think the price is fair enough for chipped body and even lenses - what I need to be convinced of is whether the S2 actually works or not. If it delivers M8/DMR type IQ @ 40 megapixels - and the lenses have fast and accurate autofocus, and users report no hassles in the first six months - I am a buyer.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    [QUOTE=jonoslack;122484]
    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post

    It always makes me laugh when you see someone struggling with a tripod outside with the wind blowing the vegetation around

    And if the S2 shutter really does have that much less slap . . . and if the ISO 800 really is okay . . . .

    Of course, it still all boils down to whether it delivers or not.
    Chaps,

    As the resolution goes up, so the affect of shutter slap / camera movement becomes more apparent. and some shots you just can't take unless you have a tripod, so I'll continue (occasionally...) to lug a tripod around. Anyway it makes my quack, who tells me I have to lose 3 stone and get my blood pressure down , happy because its exercise

    Quentin
    Last edited by Quentin_Bargate; 3rd August 2009 at 03:11.
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    [QUOTE=Quentin_Bargate;122497]
    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post

    Chaps,

    As the resolution goes up, so the affect of shutter slap / camera movement becomes more apparent. and some shots you just can't take unless you have a tripod,

    Quentin
    Of course, of course - but that's different from needing one for 100%, and the affect of shutter slap / camera movement I agree with too, but if you have less of it (as the S2 claims) then that will be an improvement.

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    At this prices the S System is already dead for me before even trying. And not discussing any of the issues with fixed sensor, less flexibility and absolutely not replacing a Tech cam for landscape photography.

    I went through all the hassles you can get at Leica with my M system (M8) and I will never ever repeat this experience

    And there is no SW available like C1Pro or Phocus for this system. How many years will it take before this is going to be shipped?

    A number of questionmarks, high prices, a closed system and bad reputation in digital over the last years - for me this is NOT a winner.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Jono,

    You're starting to look like a badminton player: whatever shots come in at the S2, you hit them right back. I guess all those posts about tripods and heads and mirror slap were just chin wagging. Is there anything at all that disappoints you about the S2?

    I agree that if it is easier to use than any camera yet made, and produces better files than have ever been seen, and works without ever failing, etc., that people will buy it, but gee, aren't there a few unknowns right now?

    Steve

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    There is no outrage but a lot of head scratching and it leaves a whole sector of folks that had interest out in the cold. It really is very simple it over shot the mark compared to the competition and what you can get for the same money. After doing the math 58k for a 4 lens system can buy me a whole lot of Phase /Hassy ,Tech camera and spare change left over for a Nikon. Really comes down to a Phase P40+ with 4 lenses about 34k , a Tech camera and 3 lenses about 12k and approx. 12k left over for a Nikon setup. That's a whole lot of gear for 58k. Believe me it will not be any better than a P40+ sensor any day of the week. All Phase really needs is a new body with some of those same features like a larger LCD and some speed. I was or am in line to test a S2 but I am sure Leica feels I think the money is too high and folks all I can say is it is. It simply is overpriced , not outrage , no sour grapes and if it was 24k with a 70mm already attached to it than it maybe in my hands but Leica slammed the door in the face of anyone that wants to switch and let's not even begin to talk of the loss of selling my used system. Many folks are switching back to Nikons and when you look at that price difference for a Nikon system fully loaded for 15k compared to 58k half cocked and almost 4 times the money than you soon realize how worldly the difference truly it is not. These system will never make it into rental houses either, they will not shell out the money for them when there hurting as well and they are already fully loaded with Hassy and Phase stuff. If this came in slightly below the Hassy and Phase One systems it would have cleaned the clock and most likely would have the highest market share in no time. I'm dead serious if this had a entry level price below the competition it would have stole the market. Leica screwed themselves here in a big way they did not even realize they could.

    Bottom line is they lost the middle class and the biggest percentage of the marketing pie.
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Believe me it will not be any better than a P40+ sensor any day of the week.
    I think it will be 1 stop better in ISO due to the microlenses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    All Phase really needs is a new body with some of those same features like a larger LCD and some speed.
    I think Phase needs something more. LCD, yes, of course. In camera processing. Microadjustment for AF lenses. Leaf shutter lenses. Waist level finder ...

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    I think it will be 1 stop better in ISO due to the microlenses.

    I think Phase needs something more. LCD, yes, of course. In camera processing. Microadjustment for AF lenses. Leaf shutter lenses. Waist level finder ...
    Tough call Thomas the P40+ with sensor plus did look better than my P30+ at the real high ISO but that was with binning. I would say not better and without C1 and it's binning algorithm I think I would be betting on the P40+ myself. Regardless the S2 has some nice features no question and something we would like to see in the Hassy and Phase bodies. That is not my argument at all. The camera will perform no question.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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