Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

[Terry]

If you all go back to the posts around launch time (photokina), the pricing that came out is not that much different than everyone was speculating. If the new M lenses like the 21 and 24 lux are $6,000 each and are selling, what were you expecting on the pricing for the new batch of S lenses? How much are the good lenses for the technical cameras?

I think everyone was wishing it was going to come in lower and kept talking it down but go back to your posts from 6 months ago and read what you were saying then.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Very simple 18k was the top for it and around 3500 for lenses. No one said it should be anymore. This is 50 k before you even pack your back. It's completely out of reach. I have 25k in a WHOLE system, this is twice the price and not remotely twice the system. A normal lens at 4600 dollars is the most absurd price on the planet

Think about this is there a normal focal length lens on the market on ANY system that cost 4600. I can tell you not a chance in hell there is. That's basically 2 k overpriced right there.

Let's remember a brand new P40+ with body and lens is 21K . A S2 with body and lens is close to almost 28k without a service warranty and no central shutter which is 1200 more I believe( still trying to figure that one out). That is a 7 k difference and in my neck of the woods 7 k buys me 2 or 3 lenses.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Alright lets get down to a 4 lens setup which almost everyone agree's maybe the final setup and let's add the premium service on lenses and bodies. This is scary


S2-P Body with Sapphire LCD Cover Glass and Platinum Service Package - $27,995

Accessories:
Multi Function Handgrip S - $1,295 (Jan 10)
Battery Charger (spare/extra) - $399



Lenses:

Summarit-S 70mm f/2.5 ASPH CS - $5,995 (Nov 09)

APO-Tele-Elmar-S 180mm f/3.5 CS - $7,495 (Nov 09)

APO-Macro-Summarit-S 120mm f/2.5 - $7,495 (Nov 09)

Summarit-S 35mm f/2.5 ASPH CS - $5,995 (Dec 09)

Service Packages for Lenses:
S-Lens Premium Service - $495
S-Lens Platium Service - $995

No let's go for the cheap S lens Premium service which is 500 per lens . So that is 2k added on.

Geez how stupid of me it's only 58k

Now just off the top of my little head here. I could buy a P40+ and 4 lenses plus a tech camera and 4 lenses than throw a Nikon D3x in here and a few lenses and still have change left over.

Terry your a investment banker , how would i come into your office with 60k in my pocket and justify to you get 5 items instead of 15 items that may depreciate in no time or worse yet the company go singing a swan song

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Okay need espresso number 2.

Just looking at that i could not even sandbag my 12 year old into believing the s2 is a deal, never mind my wife which surely would pull the damn 9mm trigger and laugh doing it

 

[Quentin_Bargate]

It'll look great on the deck of a superyacht, casually slung in the back of a Ferrari, or on the shoulder of the latest supermodel.

For the more typical propsective buyer, the price tag is absurd.

Still, if I date that supermodel (after my wife has killed me that is:ROTFL: ) maybe I will change my mind.

Quentin

 

[Terry]

Look Guy,
I am not defending it. What I am saying is that you have all been consistently "talking the prices down" to the levels you want it to be however just go back to what the initial talk on pricing was and it isn't so different.

Just a nitpick...you put a grip in the mix - can't do that with Phase. Did you included the value added pricing in your Phase price? Are you using prices for new lenses or used lens prices for both Phase and technical? I know these are minor things but need to play apples to apples here.

By the way....prices have gone up not down on lenses
D3x $7500 plus 14-24 $1800 plus 24-70 $1800 plus 70-200 $2400 = $13,500.

 

[Quentin_Bargate]

Look Guy,
I am not defending it. What I am saying is that you have all been consistently "talking the prices down" to the levels you want it to be however just go back to what the initial talk on pricing was and it isn't so different.

Does it matter? the wrong price is the wrong price regardless. For me, its actually a relief. I can at least strike the S2 off any wish list I might have.

Quentin

 

[robmac]

My feeling is the S2 price is a factor of two, maybe three factors - layers in a cake if you will:

1. The typical 'we are Leica' ego premium.
We used to call it 'believing too many of their own press releases'. The price premium some think is HS, some just tolerate, some think is partially justified on the lenses and some think is the rightful price of admission into the church.

2. They dragged their feet and got caught with their shorts down.
They took too long to get a new 'SLR' to market and now it's bitten them on the *** - hard. They approved the design of, acquired the tooling, etc for and entered into (likely) multi-year supply agreements for components, glass. etc just as the MFDB started to follow the DSLR depreciation curve. On top of that there were likely cost over-runs, etc - normal project snafus.

They have a nice camera (on paper anyway) - but it's priced like Solms forgot what year it was because they'll never see their target ROI (or any +ROI) if they don't throw the calendar away.

3. I suspect they know they have a problem, a big one - hence the idiotic talking points. If you need to talk about your price, let alone with STUPID comments like 'a free copy of LR' on a $22K camera, you know you're ***-deep in alligators.

That said, I think they're hoping that enough of the faithful will snap up enough units (low-serial numbers..;>) to give the project a financial pulse. This vs. under-cutting the body price and praying like hell enough people BEYOND the faithful make up the volume in bodies and lenses needed to avoid a disaster.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Okay take out the grip . For a body , lens and its premium service the S2 comes in at 34k . 28 for the body and 6 k for the lens

Same package new Phase body , 80 lens, P40+ and 3 year warranty. I can call Dave today at CI and anyone on this forum can get that for 23k and that is actually to high I think. Hell let's even make it 25k it still is 9k off any mark.

Yes we are talking the price down no question it should be what is a comparable value the s2 is not even remotely close to what already exist today in the market. 9k in overpricing is something no one can justify and represents a extra 2 to 4 lenses to someone. They flat out blew it here. If it was even close to the P40+ package i may go for it but not at these absurd premiums.

 

[fotografz]

Look Guy,
I am not defending it. What I am saying is that you have all been consistently "talking the prices down" to the levels you want it to be however just go back to what the initial talk on pricing was and it isn't so different.

Just a nitpick...you put a grip in the mix - can't do that with Phase. Did you included the value added pricing in your Phase price? Are you using prices for new lenses or used lens prices for both Phase and technical? I know these are minor things but need to play apples to apples here.

By the way....prices have gone up not down on lenses
D3x $7500 plus 14-24 $1800 plus 24-70 $1800 plus 70-200 $2400 = $13,500.

FYI, I didn't pay $7,500 for my D3X ... and you CAN buy mint used lenses for Nikon, or Canon or Mamiya or Hasselblad ... which you can't with this S2 set up.

This vaguely reminds me of when I priced out a Leaf Hy6, which to start with was a similiarly heart stoppingly expensive system (over 50K) ... but at least you could get by with some used Rollei lenses. Superb sytem no doubt, but priced out of the real world, and now look at where it's at

 

[Guy Mancuso]

But you could also buy some used gear in there to offset the total costs and also that was back when the economy and business was booming. Different landscape completely today. The Sinar system is expensive but you also had options to lower costs , here there are no options. Today Sinar in our minds is in limbo at least that is the perception we all have and that is not good for them and any recovery coming. I do hope they hang on for sure. We can't afford to keep lowering our options.

 

[TRSmith]

By the way....prices have gone up not down on lenses
D3x $7500 plus 14-24 $1800 plus 24-70 $1800 plus 70-200 $2400 = $13,500.

More than anything else, the pricing of the S2 has made (in my mind at least) the D3X way more attractive and something of a bargain. Will I miss drooling over all the details and subtle nuance that Leica glass will no doubt provide on the S2? Perhaps. But the package as Terry describes it sounds pretty darn good to me. Since I will probably never shoot fashion in a studio for a billboard, D3X resolution and IQ could take me a very long way for nearly half the price of the S2 body alone. Nikon has probably been cheering and popping champagne ever since the announcement of the S2 pricing was made.

 

[fotografz]

My feeling is the S2 price is a factor of two, maybe three factors - layers in a cake if you will:

1. The typical 'we are Leica' ego premium.
We used to call it 'believing too many of their own press releases'. The price premium some think is HS, some just tolerate, some think is partially justified on the lenses and some think is the rightful price of admission into the church.

2. They dragged their feet and got caught with their shorts down.
They took too long to get a new 'SLR' to market and now it's bitten them on the *** - hard. They approved the design of, acquired the tooling, etc for and entered into (likely) multi-year supply agreements for components, glass. etc just as the MFDB started to follow the DSLR depreciation curve. On top of that there were likely cost over-runs, etc - normal project snafus.

They have a nice camera (on paper anyway) - but it's priced like Solms forgot what year it was because they'll never see their target ROI (or any +ROI) if they don't throw the calendar away.

3. I suspect they know they have a problem, a big one - hence the idiotic talking points. If you need to talk about your price, let alone with STUPID comments like 'a free copy of LR' on a $22K camera, you know you're ***-deep in alligators.

That said, I think they're hoping that enough of the faithful will snap up enough units (low-serial numbers..;>) to give the project a financial pulse. This vs. under-cutting the body price and praying like hell enough people BEYOND the faithful make up the volume in bodies and lenses needed to avoid a disaster.

I think they'll sell the 1000 they projected.

Once it's in the hands of some superstar shooter and people see the results it'll sell to an elite cross section of people , including some successful pros.

The pricing simply makes it not for everyone ... or almost "not for ANYONE". Working shmoes will have something to dream about when they hit the big time ... or the lotto. The rest of us will just bitch about not being abe to afford one. :angry:

I can't swing a H3D-II/60 so this is even more out there on the end of the stick forever beyond my reach ... unless the economy recovers and I can retire ... then sell off almost everything and go out using the a Leica ... which is how I started this whole trek in photography ... using a M camera and lenses that I most certainly could not afford but got anyway.

 

[LJL]

This entire scenario will make a great business school teaching case at some point, regardless of the outcome. Personally, like Tim and others have mentioned, I sort of feel relieved to take the S2 system off my radar at this point. I am sure there are some sighs of relief (plus muffled or outright laughter) at Phase, Hasselblad, Nikon, Canon and even Sony right now, knowing that Leica may have taken itself out of the competition. Will be interesting to see what they learn and bring to the market from all of this.

As Marc comments, once (if) the S2 gets into the hands of some superstar shooter (still not sure who that may be), it may draw a few more wannabes to the fold, but the pricing is surely going to remain a question, even for those with the money. Let's see what the real output from a fully-tuned production camera looks like to see if the S2 will even be worth dreaming about. (Also, let's see just how many rental houses will carry this kit for folks to test out or use on those rare high-dollar assignments.) My bet is that the other companies mentioned are already getting there with new glass and maybe sensors, or will get there shortly and offer something for a lot more justifiable price compared to Leica. Even if the lenses turn out to be stellar, it is not clear that many (any) folks will be that blown away to make the plunge. As has been mentioned by a number of folks, a tech camera and back will hold its own for landscape and maybe even product shooting, and the high end 35mm DSLRs, plus Hassies are holding their own for studio/fashion shooting. Where does that really leave this overpriced S2? Right, in the backseat of that Ferrari, on the deck of the yacht, in a "collector case" and maybe in a few "superstar" studios, but mostly NOT in the bag of serious photographers that may be trying to earn a living.

Hey, there is always some hope that the outrage at Leica's nearly obscene pricing will get them to reconsider......they did make a number of concessions with the M8 after its series of problems ;-) In the meantime, go pull out your present gear, polish it up a bit, and go have some fun shooting with it now that your lust for the S2 has been crushed.....like mine.

LJ

 

[monza]

I don't understand the shock and surprise. We are talking about Leica here, very limited production numbers, and these aren't manufactured in China.

The challenge for Leica IMHO is going to be getting dealers to commit to the program. The margins are good as long as the dealer makes a serious commitment, but how many will? If a dealer doesn't commit to the full S2 program, the margins are less, but then why bother trying to push with the mundane margins? What's the incentive?

Without the dealers, Leica will have to do all the selling but they don't have the sales force to do it...

 

[stephengilbert]

I think that the absence of upgradability and the short product life of digital gear raise problems for Leica. Talk of a thousand units a year for five years, for example, makes no sense if the camera is no longer cutting edge in three. And the absence of a way to get to a better camera/sensor without losing all of your "investment" in the S2 is a problem. If you have a Phase back, you can trade it in on a higher spec, newer design and get an attractive price on the new back. If you have an S2 and Leica produces an S3, you can sell the S2 here, or on eBay, but Leica has no solution for you.

The S2 only makes sense if you think that you'll never need (or want ) a "better" camera in the future. It may well be that the S2 is so good that that could be the case, but it doesn't seem common among photographers to be able to sit still while new, better products become available. Maybe it should be.

 

[Stuart Richardson]

Well I think the thing is that Leica is pricing themselves like they did with 35mm. They are saying, "oh, we are the best, we can charge double our competitors -- Canon and Nikon". But the problem is they are not playing with Canon and Nikon anymore. They are playing with Hasselblad, Mamiya and Rollei (well, its slowly decaying corpse anyway). Leica thinks they can demand a huge premium over Hasselblad and Mamiya, which really isn't the case. They don't really have the "premium" argument anymore. Hasselblad does not make "consumer" glass. None of the medium format makers are high volume and none of them have cheap lenses or bodies made in China. There are not really any current lenses in the Hasselblad, Mamiya or Rollei line that could be considered "bad". I doubt the equivalent cost of labor in Japan, Sweden and Denmark is that much cheaper than it is in Germany. So when they come in and price themselves as if they were competing against DX lenses there is a problem.

Also, I don't think anyone had a problem with them charging a premium, because their glass probably will be better. It is about the KIND of premium they are charging. The 70mm is the best example. Both Mamiya and Hasselblad sell the lens with the bodies, so you would never really have to buy one, but if you did, retail is under 2000 for the Hasselblad 80mm (with shutter) and around 1200 for the Mamiya (no shutter). So the Leica standard lens costs 370% more than the Mamiya lens, and 300% more than the Hasselblad. At the very least, because you are not paying full retail for these lenses when you buy a normal kit, whereas Leica is forcing you to pay full retail.

 

[robmac]

Yup, at these prices the wholesale pricing means big $$$$ in RISKY inventory for a dealer, many will likely do it on an order-by-order basis only outside of a demo kit.

As LJ said, if you're in MF, look lovingly at your 'bargain' Hassy, justify that new uber-lens(es) under the excuse that it's a drop in the bucket vs an S2 kit and be happy. You wouldn't notice the difference (vs S2) in prints anyway. It's not like the clients will give a rat's *** if you're lacking that red dot.

If a DSLR shooter, do the same with your ___ and some nice R glass if you need a fix - or pick up that D3X or step up to the H3DII-31, etc under the 'it's a bloody bargain' justification.

 

[Dale Allyn]

I agree with most of what's being said in this thread. It is an amazing "business school" study.

I expect the Leica glass to be something "special", but like others here, the premium is absurd in my eyes. I use Leica and Zeiss binoculars, Leica stereo zoom research microscopes (5 of them), etc. because I can see the difference in comparison to others. Still, the premium in those markets is more like 20-35%.

I certainly expected the S2 lenses to be at least as much as Hasselblad, but not the 70mm; and I felt like a smarter body price would be about double that of the Nikon D3x – say $16K (for the crappy service model), maybe a bit more, + about $2K to $2500 for the 70mm. Get users into the basic body and lens for less than $20K and establish a base.

I'm one who would have considered such a kit (though am very happy with Phase/Mamiya and will likely move upward in that line as the economy allows), and I would have been one to expect to keep the body for longer than three years. All of this drivel assumes a certain image output quality of course.

Anyway, I wish Leica well, but I can't help but think that the dealers are not looking forward to this process in the first year of this exercise. During a peak economy it would be a challenging enough formula. Phase and Hassey must be partying.

 

[sinwen]

You folks get the punch only now, I got it went the DMR was launched, then again with the M8. The 5000 figure at the time were insane to me, but I am a poor "amateur" only !
I knew then I would never buy leica again.
When I heard of the S2, I knew they burried themselves alive, sad story.