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Thread: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Chill Guy, I am not on your case @ all - I read the base price as 22 + 4-5K for a lens ..hence i reckon no real biggy for a camera with a lot more apparent ergonomic friendliness and processing speed, so to me the pricing was pretty much ok relative to others ...and I still think it is 0- as I dont give a rats about Platinum service no need for me ..

    - also Phase One and Hasselblad prices are cheaper in the USA than the rip off artists charge down here..lets not talk about what I actually paid for my H3D-11 when I bought it hmm - that is another can of worms !

    As for an M8 I dont know if you got one before I did I certainly bought one of the first five M8 's in Australia and the same for the DMR and that was before I had the pleasure of making your acquaintance my friend - so yeah I am a Leica nut - but that was then and this is now..not one of my film Leicas has ever broken down or had a hitch but I seem to have struck problems with the M8 recently following a service in Solms .. so yeah I am wary of the service capability of Leica at the moment..

    after trying out the Hy6 - I love the Sinar back ( and I dont care how many people bag it) and I love the Schneider lenses - but I don't love the fact that the Hy6 is now a dead system ...

    So I am wary of ever buying into anything from anyone until proven it works and the company is stable - this will take at least 6-12 months for Leica to prove to me..IF /WHEN they do I will seriously consider the camera because it replaces one or two of my MFD systems which are sitting on the shelf looking pretty. If they had included image stabilisation via lens or chip - as well as multi point point focus with decent 1200 ISO - they could have charged even as far as I am concerned..already (on paper) it will dust off Hasselblad and Phase systems ( we cant talk Sinar or leaf systems anymore) in a few areas I care about.

    Cheers
    Pete

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    given my recent 'experiences' with Solms service of my M8 - broke down day one after a two month turnaround - with another case of total system failure - I would have to say NO WAY JOSE
    Hi Pete:

    Yeah, that's what I figured so was teasing you a bit, and why the big grin on my post. When we spend that kind of money on anything, we definitely want it to be proven and 100% reliable. Unfortunately that means one thing: time in the field in OTHER people's hands, getting thrashed and hanging tough through all of that for some reasonable period of time. Which means fewer *seasoned* early adopters...

    PS: US price I have heard was $34K for the camera plus normal lens, and then maybe/probably a $2K rebate for early adopters...

    Cheers,
    Jack
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Hi Pete:

    Yeah, that's what I figured so was teasing you a bit, and why the big grin on my post. When we spend that kind of money on anything, we definitely want it to be proven and 100% reliable. Unfortunately that means one thing: time in the field in OTHER people's hands, getting thrashed and hanging tough through all of that for some reasonable period of time. Which means fewer *seasoned* early adopters...

    PS: US price I have heard was $34K for the camera plus normal lens, and then maybe/probably a $2K rebate for early adopters...

    Cheers,
    Hi Jack
    The prices listed show $23K for the body and $4.5K for the lens - unless you want the sapphire glass+platinum service etc.
    Surely in a thread like this it's really important that these figures are quoted correctly (please correct me if I'm wrong)

    I certainly think that Leica have a real catch 22 here:

    People won't buy until they know it's reliable
    People won't know it's reliable until they buy.

    But I'm not convinced it has much to do with the price. People are going to be leery about spending $20K on an unproved system just as much as spending $27K (or even $34K)

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Still think they should have offered the S2 camera at a break even price point including the best coverage possible during the launch phase ... and then make it up in lens sales ... of which there are no other alternatives. Captive enthusiasm so to speak.

    Given that Leica pretty much rules optics and everything else is an also ran, the prices are no real surprise ... tough to swallow, but you do have a pretty good idea that the optics will be some of the best ever, if not the best ever for an SLR.

    Perhaps they are selling the body at a break even price point ... but I doubt it.

    Unfortunately, my need for a MFD camera system dropped off the same cliff the economy went over. Right now, with the work I have for the foreseeable future, I want/need/desire a FF, 16+ meg M9 much more than another MFD system.

    The world turns and things change.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    I still love how people are defending an DSLR for 22k or better 27k with lens. The S2 is nothing more. It will be real interesting how the market goes, especially with Canon probably bringing something like a 28mp beginning of next year. Or RED bringing their system to the market.

    We will see what actually happens I whish Leica well, because as many hear I would love to se a FF M9 some day.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Still think they should have offered the S2 camera at a break even price point including the best coverage possible during the launch phase ... and then make it up in lens sales ... of which there are no other alternatives. Captive enthusiasm so to speak.
    That was the point I have been trying to make from the very start. Leica has a lot to prove on the body side of things. It needs to show it really works as they market. They need to prove that there is little or no need for a special service contract to fix something that is not supposed to break. They need to prove turnaround if something does break, and not make the early adopter have to pay for some Platinum service. Think about that.....at first, there will not be a lot of these out there, so how long can it possibly take trained, competent repair guys to turn it around should something go south. (Let's try not to think about the sensor debacle on the M8, and how long it too for Leica to figure things out and then figure a repair path. That was horrific, to say the least.)

    All along I have been less apoplectic about the lenses for the most part, but the body price and service contract stuff is pure robbery the way I see it. The arguments have been that Leica is not able to produce volumes for delivery. Duh....should that have not been thought about first? If the plan all along has been very low volume, very high price, why not just call it a super special niche camera, rather than the tool to change the professional's world as they have been?

    To me, as Marc points out also, the body, even with the new sensor and all the other great things they market, should be put into the market at cost or even a bit less if too high, just to get the damn thing out there. If it does what it claims, lens sales will rapidly follow. That is a pretty simple concept at this point. Obviously not one that many others agree with here, nor that Leica sees as even a reasonable approach. The argument about raising prices after the fact does not apply. You market it as a limited introductory price and period of offering. I would bet that they could clear the 1000 unit mark inside a month if they took that approach. But that would be something done by a company that is not afraid of success...Leica has a ways to go to take that approach, even in a niche market. Just my opinions.

    LJ

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    I certainly think that Leica have a real catch 22 here:

    People won't buy until they know it's reliable
    People won't know it's reliable until they buy.
    Jono:

    This is truly the crux of the matter for Leica.

    The best thing Leica could do is get this camera in the hands of real shooters, regardless of cost. As Marc said earlier in the thread, if that be rental houses, so be it. But IMO they should plan on having about 50 demo copies shipped for 60 day trials to working pros all over the world.

    HOWEVER, the danger in that strategy is working pros will find faults, and I suspect Leica is not going to want any faults in the S2 discussed openly anywhere, regardless of venue. Leica really needs to implement a true Beta test scheme here. Get cameras -- and more than just 3 or 4 -- out to working pros, let them discover the faults and give Leica a chance to correct them, THEN deliver market-ready versions. Their history here with the early DMR and M8 is not doing them any good for this product...
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    "[A]nd not make the early adopter have to pay for some Platinum service."

    I.e., the Microsoft model: you pay top dollar to be a beta tester.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    I still love how people are defending an DSLR for 22k or better 27k with lens. The S2 is nothing more.
    Actually a P1 with DB or a Hassy with DB is nothing more as well. I have no idea how much of the MFD users consider to buy a tech camera or already have one so that they can take advantage of the modular system.
    Too, it will be interessting if there will be an upgrade strategy offered by Leica (I have to admit I like the idea of upgrading just the DB instead of the entire camera). MFD offer upgarde paths (very different ones but still).
    IMO these are the strongest points for a modular system. I hardly see other points... the contrary.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Exactly Stephen. But given the history with the M8, you'd be an idiot to pay for this camera and not pay for the platinum service plan.
    Jack
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Jack and Jono,
    At this point, it is looking like that ship has sailed, WRT having enough time to shake things down before launch. Looks like yet another miscalculation in strategy, which does little to boost confidence more. Since Leica had working prototypes quite some time ago, you would think they would have put more effort into real user testing, rather than marketing demo purposes only.

    Who knows, maybe the S2 will perform flawlessly from the start and all the in-house testing will have caught all the problems.....like the IR and other sensor issues on the M8 ;-)

    LJ

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Jono:

    This is truly the crux of the matter for Leica.

    The best thing Leica could do is get this camera in the hands of real shooters, regardless of cost. As Marc said earlier in the thread, if that be rental houses, so be it. But IMO they should plan on having about 50 demo copies shipped for 60 day trials to working pros all over the world.

    HOWEVER, the danger in that strategy is working pros will find faults, and I suspect Leica is not going to want any faults in the S2 discussed openly anywhere, regardless of venue. Leica really needs to implement a true Beta test scheme here. Get cameras -- and more than just 3 or 4 -- out to working pros, let them discover the faults and give Leica a chance to correct them, THEN deliver market-ready versions. Their history here is not doing them any good for this product...
    How can one argue with that - they could easily institute an NDA as a return for the compliment. I must say, I rather assumed that they'd done that? No?

    I don't think that LJ and Marc's idea of the body as a loss leader runs though; - the problem is that you need to have much more manufacturing capability than I suspect they have, and also support for many cameras all at once. I imagine that they WANT it to sell slowly for the first month or so, so that they can handle anything that might need doing quickly.

    Let's face it, most new cameras have issues (Leica isn't the only guilty party by any means) - if you've just sold 1000 cameras at a loss and you need to do a recall . . . . that's a 'go bust' type of situation.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    Actually a P1 with DB or a Hassy with DB is nothing more as well. I have no idea how much of the MFD users consider to buy a tech camera or already have one so that they can take advantage of the modular system.
    Thomas,

    I'm going to side with Christopher here --- the big difference between the S2 and my P45+ is I can attach my P45+ to a tech camera or view camera -- and many of us do. I can even get the mount swapped to put it on another MF camera platform for a price. In this regard, the S2 is just an over-sized DSLR for $27K ~ $34K. But granted, it's also more, given added sensor size...
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Bodies: (Oct 09)
    S2 Camera Body - $22,995
    S2-P Body with Sapphire LCD Cover Glass and Platinum Service Package - $27,995

    Accessories:
    Multi Function Handgrip S - $1,295 (Jan 10)
    Battery Charger (spare/extra) - $399

    Service Packages for Bodies:
    S-Body Premium Service - $1,495
    S-Body Platinum Service - $3,795

    Lenses:
    Summarit-S 70mm f/2.5 ASPH - $4,495 (Oct 09)
    Summarit-S 70mm f/2.5 ASPH CS - $5,995 (Nov 09)
    APO-Tele-Elmar-S 180mm f/3.5 - $6,495 (Oct 09)
    APO-Tele-Elmar-S 180mm f/3.5 CS - $7,495 (Nov 09)
    APO-Macro-Summarit-S 120mm f/2.5 - $6,495 (Nov 09)
    APO-Macro-Summarit-S 120mm f/2.5 - $7,495 (Nov 09)
    Summarit-S 35mm f/2.5 ASPH - $5,295 (Dec 09)
    Summarit-S 35mm f/2.5 ASPH CS - $5,995 (Dec 09)

    Service Packages for Lenses:
    S-Lens Premium Service - $495
    S-Lens Platium Service - $995


    The cheapest entry point without warranty and Central shutter is 27500. I dare anyone to buy a Leica without a warranty attached to it. Not a great idea folks given there past record.

    So 23000 k for the body and 1500 for premium warranty or really platinum which is like the value added 3 year Phase gives you is 3800. Than you simply have to buy the lens with CS in it at a whooping 6k . Plus warranty for that which is nuts on the lenses S-Lens Premium Service - $495
    S-Lens Platium Service - $995

    Pretty soon you see how it goes way over 30k for body and a normal lens.

    And Jack reason why I will not get one to test . Leica already knows i find fault just in the pricing alone. And I have a big mouth. LOL

    Like I said earlier they would have killed anyone standing with just below pricing of Phase or Hassy . Cleaned the clock but again all that is really missing in Hassy and Phase is abetter body and that can change in a NY heartbeat with some improved changes. The LCD would be the last one to change with the backs themselves but certainly can be done. These folks are just not sitting still watching this either. Rumors are already flying around
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    Jack and Jono,
    At this point, it is looking like that ship has sailed, WRT having enough time to shake things down before launch. Looks like yet another miscalculation in strategy, which does little to boost confidence more. Since Leica had working prototypes quite some time ago, you would think they would have put more effort into real user testing, rather than marketing demo purposes only.
    Have they not done this? I would assume that they had, and I certainly don't have any evidence that they didn't. Surely anyone testing would be under an NDA, so we wouldn't know anyway.

    I think it's rash to assume that there has been no field testing.

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    Who knows, maybe the S2 will perform flawlessly from the start and all the in-house testing will have caught all the problems.....like the IR and other sensor issues on the M8 ;-)

    LJ
    I'd be gobsmacked if they hadn't learned some lessons from the IR issue. As for performing flawlessly from the start - do you mean like Canon's recent pro releases?

    If it's something like the IR issue I agree - but most cameras have some issue or other. That's why I think the 'loss leader' idea wouldn't have worked. (see answer to Jack above)

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Peter I'm fine sorry if i lashed out. Maybe being on vacation sitting on the beach all day is getting to my head. LOL

    I'm just pointing out obvious stuff. Leica simply priced this out of my reach and my ability to justify it
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    The cheapest entry point without warranty and Central shutter is 27500. I dare anyone to buy a Leica without a warranty attached to it. Not a great idea folks given there past record.
    Hi Guy
    surely that's not without warranty - it's certainly WITH warranty in the UK - no question (and the equivalent prices are including tax as well).

    sure, it isn't with premium or platinum warranty, but it does, surely, include standard Leica warranty.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    the big difference between the S2 and my P45+ is I can attach my P45+ to a tech camera or view camera. I can even get the mount swapped to put it on another MF camera platform. In this regard, the S2 is just an over-sized DSLR for $27K ~ $34K...
    of course, exactly what I said. But if you DON'T use a tech camera (how many do or consider it?) and just use the P1 with your P45+... where is the difference than?
    I use both a tech camera and a 645 with my DBs... so for me the modular system is the way to go, no question.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi Guy
    surely that's not without warranty - it's certainly WITH warranty in the UK - no question (and the equivalent prices are including tax as well).

    sure, it isn't with premium or platinum warranty, but it does, surely, include standard Leica warranty.
    I think you get a standard 12 month warranty like anything else the premium warranties are advanced loaner swaps and such like Phase does with there 3 year value added which gets you overnight loaners and expedited repairs. I think Leica pretty much copied that idea but we also need to see the specs on this in writing as well. Again send prices out without explanations.

    Now with a normal warranty your at Leica mercy with timely repairs. Okay maybe not a fair comment but we can only go by there past record here as well. We all know how many months for customers have spent in Solms and not in there hands. Hopefully this has changed but know one knows for sure either. Talk is cheap
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post

    Let's face it, most new cameras have issues (Leica isn't the only guilty party by any means)
    The P65+ didn't. The P40+ didn't. Nor did the P22+ or P30+ or P45+ before them. Nor did any of the Hassy DBII series AFAIK.

    With a Canon DSLR, I am only out $7 grand temporarily as they repair/upgrade the body, and their history is to do that quickly and for free, so my *risk* is low on a net basis. With Leica, it took nearly a year before all the quirks were properly resolved with the M8, and turn-around times were less than stellar for many folks. Reliability was also less than stellar, with several cameras coming back with more problems than when shipped in for service.

    The issue is their history. They are a good and honest company and will most certainly make it right EVENTUALLY. But how long will it take, and how many times will I really need to send it in to get it there? That is the issue that will keep people that are historic early adopters to stand by on the sidelines and "wait and see," and I'm not sure Leica has the luxury of surviving a wait-and-see market for the S2...
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    But if you DON'T use a tech camera (how many do or consider it?) and just use the P1 with your P45+... where is the difference than?
    Resaleability to somebody who does want to use it various platforms?
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Resaleability to somebody who does want to use it various platforms?
    that counts :-)

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post

    The issue is their history. They are a good and honest company and will most certainly make it right EVENTUALLY. But how long will it take, and how many times will I really need to send it in to get it there? That is the issue that will keep people that are historic early adopters to stand by on the sidelines and "wait and see," and I'm not sure Leica has the luxury of surviving a wait-and-see market for the S2...
    Ah well, I guess we'll just have to "wait and see"

    Certainly, I don't think their best option was to pump bodies out of the door at a loss in the first instance.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Jono,
    I get that part. I too hope that there have been some serious beta testers hard at work for months now. An NDA could cover the silence. They SHOULD have learned that from the M8, but at this point, I am slow to give more credit than has been earned with Leica.

    The concept of selling a lot of S2 bodies early can be a problem IF there has not been sufficient beta shakedown and having all the problems fixed by now. Again, no way to know where this is at this point. One would assume this has been done, but again, with Leica, all bets there are off.

    As far as problems with Canon...fair point, but they did get things corrected. With the size of their installed base, and the volumes they sell, it did take longer than a lot of folks felt comfortable with to get fixed. Interestingly, one of the fixes was to disable a new "feature" that was causing most of the problems and was not all that great a feature to begin with. Some things can be "over-engineered" to cause unforeseen problems. The bigger issue I see is not catching things on new stuff that has no back-up option, which is pretty much the case with all of the S2. If a 1DMkIII had a vexing problem, one could still use a 1DMkII and keep going, which a lot of pros did. What do you fall back on when an S2 issue comes up that requires lots of time to sort out?

    The other points about one being foolish to NOT get a service contract with the purchase of a new Leica are all to painfully real at this point, but there still seems to be something fundamentally wrong with that at this price point and target level.

    LJ

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I think you get a standard 12 month warranty like anything else the premium warranties are advanced loaner swaps and such like Phase does with there 3 year value added which gets you overnight loaners and expedited repairs. I think Leica pretty much copied that idea but we also need to see the specs on this in writing as well.
    The Premium Service includes:
    • An additional 1-year transferable warranty
    • Special Leica tech and repair helpline
    • Warranty related exchange within the first three months of the purchase date
    • Spare parts availability guaranteed for 6-years
    • 30% repair discount

    The Platinum Service includes:
    • An additional 1-year transferable warranty
    • Special Leica tech and repair helpline
    • Warranty related exchange within the first three months of the purchase date
    • Spare parts availability guaranteed for 6-years
    • 30% repair discount
    • Free of charge maintenance including one shutter and/or central shutter replacement
    • Free of charge loan service during the repair period


    Isn't the cost for the Platinum Service about the same as the Phase Value Added Package? What are the prices for the Hasselblad Care Plans?

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Ah well, I guess we'll just have to "wait and see"

    Certainly, I don't think their best option was to pump bodies out of the door at a loss in the first instance.
    Agree totally, a loss-leader body is not a good profit strategy and they have to make a profit to remain viable. And we need them viable to effect the repairs
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    The P65+ didn't. The P40+ didn't. Nor did the P22+ or P30+ or P45+ before them. Nor did any of the Hassy DBII series AFAIK.
    didn't follow the topic but I think I remember there are some very annoyed users waiting for live preview in the new H3D2 backs... ?
    If Phase and Hassy constantly refuse to incorporate new features there is hardly something that can fail... (though to be fair: the implementation of Sensor + went without flaws as well, right?)

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Thanks Charlie the Phase Value added is 3k

    Classic 1-Year Warranty or Value-Added 3-Year Warranty?
    Phase One offers two types of warranties on its digital backs. The Classic 1-Year Warranty provides parts/service coverage for 1 year. The Value-Added 3-Year Warranty extends this warranty an additional two years, and adds extra accessories, and a replacement-unit program.

    Classic Warranty Kit
    1-Year Repair Only International Warranty
    Black Pelican Case
    Capture One DB
    Single-Bay battery charger
    One 2500 mAh battery
    Viewfinder masks (5 pcs)
    4.5m Firewire Cable
    DigiClean kit


    Value Added Warranty Kit
    3-Year Replacement Loaner International Warranty
    3-Year Free Platform Swap Guarantee
    Metallic Case
    Capture One Pro
    Dual-Bay battery charger
    Two 2500 mAh batteries
    Viewfinder masks (5 pcs)
    4.5m Firewire Cable
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    SanDisk 2-gig Extreme IV CF card
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Re Beta testers --- there probably were, and all three of them were probably Leica employees. ( ) And that is likely the issue with the historic undiscovered problems in the DMR and M8...
    Jack
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Agree totally, a loss-leader body is not a good profit strategy and they have to make a profit to remain viable. And we need them viable to effect the repairs
    Right, because the timetable to getting the rest of the lenses out for the system, even if we give them the big margins there, is insufficient to keep them viable to effect repairs

    LJ

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Hassy I think you can extend the warranty on a yearly basis for 1500 per year. It was posted here on a thread but I think that was the pricing
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Re Beta testers --- there probably were, and all three of them were probably Leica employees. ( ) And that is likely the issue with the historic undiscovered problems in the DMR and M8...
    I was asked two weeks ago if I wanted my name thrown in the hat. That's all I know at this point
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I was asked two weeks ago if I wanted my name thrown in the hat. That's all I know at this point
    Was that for beta testing or their new ****list

    LJ

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Thanks Charlie the Phase Value added is 3k
    But some places charge $4K for it. Find the right dealer and you get a deal maybe.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    didn't follow the topic but I think I remember there are some very annoyed users waiting for live preview in the new H3D2 backs... ?
    If Phase and Hassy constantly refuse to incorporate new features there is hardly something that can fail... (though to be fair: the implementation of Sensor + went without flaws as well, right?)
    Not sure what Hassy promised, but Phase never did to my knowledge other than tethered. It is a technical issue that prevents viable, live preview via LCD with CCD sensors. Much easier to incorporate with CMOS sensors. What they can do, is give you a live view *tethered* for CCD because they can crank the post sensor gain way up to get to a (almost) usable onscreen computer image -- but pretty much it's never going to happen with CCD sensors being viewed usably on the back's LCD.
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I was asked two weeks ago if I wanted my name thrown in the hat. That's all I know at this point
    You're the last person that will get a Beta S2! My new nickname for you is "If it can be broken I'll find a way Mancuso"
    Jack
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Go back to the Leica release list.....only glass that will be ready to ship with the camera is the 70mm non-CS and the 180mm non-CS lenses. The rest of the initial batch will follow in Nov and Dec. So one will not even be able to shake down the CS part until Nov? Hmmm.....hope those beta testers had access to the glass and not just the body.

    LJ
    Last edited by LJL; 4th August 2009 at 09:39.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    You're the last person that will get a Beta S2! My new nickname for you is "If it can be broken I'll find a way Mancuso"
    You know they won't send me one and certainly not holding my breath but who better than me.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Have you read the DNG spec? DNG provides for whatever you want. Of course, if someone writes special fields, a generalized processor will not be able to take advantage of it, but this is even more the case with proprietary formats.
    Carsten, all,

    the issue is that DNG is NOT a standard. And it is NOT open as it is implemented.

    Good luck if you want to use for real high quality

    Leica better have their own specialized SW ready for their S2 DNG files, otherwise this is going to become a real nightmare - just remember back what my DMR did with the DNG files and how this was supported by say Lightroom and/or Aperture

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Classic Warranty Kit
    1-Year Repair Only International Warranty
    Black Pelican Case
    Capture One DB
    Single-Bay battery charger
    One 2500 mAh battery
    Viewfinder masks (5 pcs)
    4.5m Firewire Cable
    DigiClean kit
    I'm confused. I have two Phase backs both came with 1 year classic warranty and each came with double-bay battery chargers, I got the LCC plate for free (goodwill) and (at least assured verbally... and I have no reason not to trust them) I get a loaner during repair (maybe not the exact same model but something similar...).

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    I still love how people are defending an DSLR for 22k or better 27k with lens.
    I don't know where you are going with this comment. Hasselblad and Mamiya cameras are also DSLRs (Digital Single Lens Reflex, in case anyone forgot). If you want to count the removable back as an extra advantage (as opposed to a source of potential problems, which is also a defensible point of view), then don't forget to include all the Leica's advantages on the other side too, please.
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    I have to admit I like the idea of upgrading just the DB instead of the entire camera.
    ... is this really a reality? Would anyone with an AFD-II have wanted to upgrade their Phase back and not get the AFD-III? Has anyone with an H2 been able to upgrade the back to an H3DII without upgrading the camera? Much ado is made of this option, but in the real world it doesn't make much sense, and indeed doesn't always exist. When you are ready for a new back, you are generally also ready for a new camera, with accompanying improvements.

    The more compelling argument is to be able to share the back with a tech camera. This is something Leica cannot match. I don't see any other serious advantages with the separate back approach, apart maybe from being able to clean the sensor more easily.
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    The best thing Leica could do is get this camera in the hands of real shooters, regardless of cost. As Marc said earlier in the thread, if that be rental houses, so be it. But IMO they should plan on having about 50 demo copies shipped for 60 day trials to working pros all over the world.
    For all we know this is already the case. There are, what, 40 known early prototypes, and possibly more later ones, yet they have hardly been seen in camera shows. I would guess that they are indeed in the hand of pros being put through their paces, under NDA.
    Last edited by carstenw; 4th August 2009 at 11:56.
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    At this point, it is looking like that ship has sailed, WRT having enough time to shake things down before launch. Looks like yet another miscalculation in strategy, which does little to boost confidence more.
    This begs the question. We know absolutely nothing of what has already transpired. Or are you privy to knowledge that the rest of us don't have?
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    I think maybe part of the DSLR bit comes from the sensor size being smaller than even the current small sensor backs such as the P31+ and the H3DII-31, though by only a bit, and once one crops the top and bottom to create a 3x4 aspect ratio with the S2 files, then it's smaller.
    I think part of the problem is if you look at it technically it sits between 35FF and Medium format, so one would like to see that reflected in the pricing.
    I speak for myself only, but at 12-15K for a basic kit, I'd be in line already.
    But this price would also let me keep all my current gear as a fall back if needed.
    I know David mentioned that people have already traded gear in, and I've seen them for sale on LL, there is a part of me that just can't believe people who have already given up their H3D39's and H3D50's for a product that's not even in their hand yet
    This is all very confusing.
    am

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Service Packages for Bodies:
    S-Body Premium Service - $1,495
    S-Body Platinum Service - $3,795

    ...

    The cheapest entry point without warranty and Central shutter is 27500. I dare anyone to buy a Leica without a warranty attached to it. Not a great idea folks given there past record.
    Well, without a service plan, not without a warranty. The mandatory warranty in Europe is two years, the first six months of which they have to prove that it isn't their fault, in case something goes wrong. In the States I think the mandatory warranty is 1 year, with no guarantees, but I am not sure on this point.

    You have to spend more on the Leica in exactly the same scenarios as you have to spend more on the Phase warranty, for example. I don't see any difference in the warranty.

    In fact, the prices overall are very similar, except for the standard lenses, which Hasselblad and Mamiya give you, and which Leica charges for, and the Leica is much more expensive there. Otherwise there just isn't a huge difference anywhere, more on the order of 10-15% in general. Some of the other Leica lenses are more expensive, but I am willing to stake my reputation that they will also be better, and in any case, the optional leaf shutter is something which Phase cannot match, so there are definite reasons to look at the Leica.

    Now I agree with everyone else here that it would be mad to buy one without testing and some careful monitoring of reliability from early buyers, but apart from that, which would be the same with any new system, or indeed camera, I don't see major differences anyway, apart from feature sets. In fact, I would expect that the new Phase body and leaf shutter lenses, should they ever arrive, will be no less problematic than the new Leica system might.
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Re Beta testers --- there probably were, and all three of them were probably Leica employees. ( ) And that is likely the issue with the historic undiscovered problems in the DMR and M8...
    Well, that is unfair. Yes, there were undiscovered, remaining problems with the M8, but the DMR was mostly a problem of late delivery, and a promised firmware update which Imacon screwed up by ditching Leica, IIRC. There were many beta testers for the M8, but the problem was that some real issues reported were swept under the rug and "the firmware isn't final, it will surely be fixed", but then it wasn't. Part of the problem was that S. Lee shoved it out of the door early, and this mistake surely won't be repeated, so all the planned time remains to fix discovered issues.

    Anyway, time will show.
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    the issue is that DNG is NOT a standard. And it is NOT open as it is implemented.
    I was just responding to the statement as written, which was incorrect. There is nothing that the DNG file format cannot handle which another format can, because the DNG format is extensible. In fact, it is TIFF with slightly different default tag meanings. I implemented a DNG reader (I am a programmer), and have read both specs.

    The basic format gives you enough tags to get all the most important information across, such as where to store the image data, how to interpret it, where the Bayer matrix starts, what form it has, colour matrices, and on and on. I wouldn't be surprised if there is a temperature field, although to be fair, I don't recall.

    So standard readers would be able to get most of the DNG exactly right, and there might just be one or two odd fields which would not be decodable right off the bat. In fact, Leica has a sterling record in keeping to the standard, with the M8. Admirable, compared to other users of the DNG standard.

    Therefore it is more likely that any DNG compliant reader will do well with these files. I agree with Jack and others that ACR/LR are not that great with sharpness, noise and to some extent, colour, but there is nothing stopping Leica from working with Adobe to improve these aspects for the S2, and I presume that they have done just that.
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Leica better have their own specialized SW ready for their S2 DNG files, otherwise this is going to become a real nightmare - just remember back what my DMR did with the DNG files and how this was supported by say Lightroom and/or Aperture
    Peter, this is a long time ago - there is no question of needing specialised software for anything other than tethering - Apple will almost certainly support the S2 (in their own good time), Adobe will be using any camera specific information.

    The M8 is now excellently supported by many software packages (some better than others of course). Whereas most camera specific software is a real dog (in performance if not in results).

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    This begs the question. We know absolutely nothing of what has already transpired. Or are you privy to knowledge that the rest of us don't have?
    Carsten,
    You are correct....I am not privy to knowledge of what has transpired. I am going by what has been published and discussed on this forum and others, in magazines and through interviews, etc. The S2 was not in production phase until very recently. That does not provide a whole bunch of time for lots of shakedown testing, especially if most of the lenses are not even going to be available for several more months from now. So most cameras and lenses would be pre-production models. Fair enough, but those may still be undergoing changes, as Leica had commented on. Also, as I recall, there were only 20 or so prototypes out there, not 40, and many of those were being used in demos and marketing events. Folks talked about these events being held all over the place. None of those models were allowing anything other than ISO 100 shooting, from what others also said.

    So, using that sort of information, plus comments from folks like Guy who just recently got an offer to submit his name for beta testing, the window of open beta testing may just be starting. Do you think all or any of the possible glitches will be quickly found in time to fix before release in a few months? That seems optimistic to me, but what do I know

    Again, I, and some others that are getting accused of "bashing" here are not hammering on the performance stuff of the S2, as nobody has really seen it or tested that part....at least not that has been publicly shared by anybody. The issue is the proposed cost of this new system, which as far as we know remains untested on a broad scale, is closer to a 35mm DSLR (good and bad for some folks), but is being priced at the higher end or above the supposed competitive offerings from Phase and Hasselblad. In other words, that "Leica premium" seems quite high, even for seasoned Leica folks, and especially in the present economy.

    Please do not get me wrong....I think the concept is great. I myself had been wishing and saving and planning for this new beast. However, at this point, I feel that the pricing and lack of other important info and testing have taken this off my radar at this point. Had Leica come in at a much more competitive level for at least the body, the taste may not be as sour as they have made it now. I fully expected it to be expensive, just not nearly as expensive as they are now making it. It still is NOT a full-blown MF solution, AND it is not the top flight 35mm DSLR sort of solution either. It is a tweener.....yet it priced higher than what even seems reasonable in the market and for whatever niche it is supposed to fill. That is my opinion, but seemingly shared by a lot of others also. What is wrong with that? Why should I and others not feel disappointed, or even disenfranchised a bit from Leica, whom many of us have been loyal users and proponents for a long time? I shot Nikon for 25 years, but when they could not field a decent professional DSLR until the D2x at least, I was glad I switched to Canon. Now Canon is getting long in the tooth with its 1-series machines. That is the consumer/user in me, and that is what Leica, Phase, Hasselblad, Nikon, Canon and anybody else has to contend with, but I know I am not alone in this group of shooters, pro or not.

    LJ

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