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Thread: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    At the risk of getting people's knickers in a twist (is that right?): you could argue that the Leica Platinum service option is a bargain compared to the Phase version. After all, Phase backs rarely fail, so they keep more of the money. You might well get your money's worth from the Leica plan.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    I have to admit I like the idea of upgrading just the DB instead of the entire camera.
    ... is this really a reality?
    Carsten, yes. First I have 2 Contax' and I honstly have no plans to replace it within the next years. Just doesn't make sense for me personally (at first I'd like to have some more lenses and accessories for my tech camera). Secondly - even if I would think about camera updates - I don't have to upgarde the sensor and the camera at the same time so this might be more bearable regarding expense. Look: with a Contax system I could upgrade today to the state of the art product (P65+). The lenses are still good enough... the entire system is just great (apart from flash sync / leaf shutter lenses which I do not need). So... no, I would not like to "upgrade" from my Contax to any Phase/Mamiya camera. If this would be the price I wouldn't shoot 645 at all anymore; I'd use the DB just with the view camera and would buy in addition a nice FF DSLR (probably the A900). And if my Contax' will ever go bust... I don't think that I am going to replace it with any other 645 or MF camera. But I hope it will never go bust... would be glad to use it for many many years.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Stephen,
    Is that not the big "health care" problem now....pay more, but get less while the "insurers" are the ones raking in the profits? ;-)

    LJ

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Well, there is too much to respond to here, but a few points:

    - The S2 is not particularly expensive compared to the competition in Europe and Britain. Only the States' economy has made it expensive there. Leica cannot compete fully with the low prices being offered in the States by Hasselblad and Phase, who have already amortized their body and back production costs at this point, but in general, the prices are very close.

    - The prototypes were very scarce on the ground. They showed up at Photokina, and one or two other known events, but in general one would have expected a far greater presence if they had indeed all been available for shows all the time. These shows are not that close together. I expect that the offer Guy recently got corresponds to a more open secondary phase, with greater numbers of cameras. These two stages would correspond to beta testing and final release candidate testing, with the earlier alpha stages having been completed before even the 20/40 prototypes were made.

    I agree with you that this camera isn't really fully on any of our radars at this point. We would be stupid (or rich enough to cover the potential loss) to enter into it at this early a stage. I also doubt that I personally can justify or afford it in any way any time soon, but I can tell you 100% that if I had the possibility, I would be looking at this camera very seriously.
    Last edited by carstenw; 4th August 2009 at 12:25.
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    Carsten, yes. First I have 2 Contax' and I honstly have no plans to replace it within the next years. Just doesn't make sense for me personally (at first I'd like to have some more lenses and accessories for my tech camera). Secondly - even if I would think about camera updates - I don't have to upgarde the sensor and the camera at the same time so this might be more bearable regarding expense.
    Okay, as a Contax owner (me too, btw, albeit with a Sinar 54LV) you have a point, although I would still claim that the point is minor. Especially Phase is known to throw the camera and kit lens after you if you leave an extra dollar, or so The mount would be the only problem, as a Contax owner, but if you had bought the 3-year extended plan, you could switch that too.
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    I also doubt that I personally can justify or afford it in any way any time soon, but I can tell you 100% that if I had the possibility, I would be looking at this camera very seriously.
    That is the point.....if it were priced more appropriately, you and many others would be looking at it and lining up in some way. But it is not priced in any way that seems reasonable....in the US, Europe, Australia, Asia or elsewhere....at least by a fair number of potential buyers. Maybe there are tons of fashion pros out there that never interact with forums, or dealers or anybody else that will pony up to the price, but seriously, that seems a stretch also.

    LJ

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Especially Phase is known to throw the camera and kit lens after you if you leave an extra dollar, or so
    hmh... maybe not for those who buy refurbished... I don't know. But basically you are right.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    I will not be looking at it for €15000, with or without lens. My price range at the moment for something like this is about €2000, and even if I bought an A900, my girlfriend would be giving me hard-to-ignore looks To be honest, I am quite happy with my Contax 645 and Sinar 54LV, and my M8. I would dearly love an S2, but I don't know how I would justify it. Maybe in two years or so. In my near future is only maybe a Contax 645 210mm lens.
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    In other words, that "Leica premium" seems quite high, even for seasoned Leica folks, and especially in the present economy.
    LJ
    For one thing when Mr. Erhardt has to go on record and defend the price point, you know it's priced too high, and there is something wrong.
    But the funny thing is, for some reason I can accept the price of the lenses, even though they are very high, it's the body and grip that I think is just over priced.
    explain to me how a grip can cost $1295.00
    am

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    Maybe there are tons of fashion pros out there that never interact with forums
    I think that is a given. I think mostly people who have at one time or another worked with computers, and a very few others, mostly friends of the above, are actually spending as much time online as us losers
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by arashm View Post
    explain to me how a grip can cost $1295.00
    Well, the grip on the 1Ds3 costs about $5500, comparing to the 5D2

    I think $1295 is quite reasonable, considering that it is made with magic from mythrill by ancient gnomes in the deepest caverns below the Harz mountains
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    oh right I forgot

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Wow ... hard to make it through this whole thread in a day.

    The S2 may not be in my immediate future now that there are M9 rumors flying, but, a few years down the road I'd definitely be interested. If anything, this financial crisis has us all looking more carefully at the payback/depreciation curve a little more carefully.

    Getting beyond the initial price discussion, I'm of the mind that the S2 will do well. Like most others here, I have used every form of Canon and Nikon body over the past five years as well as a MFDB. If there aren't any blatant DOH! moments like the IR issue, end users who care about image quality will probably take note of what the S2 in all likelihood will deliver. Why? Because, while Leica engineers may be obstinate and hard to understand at times, they have proven themselves as having a great eye for final image quality. Simply put, the DMR and M8 deliver the IQ goods. And, when you add autofocus Leica lenses to the equation ... I'll be paying attention.

    As a side-note, having tried a few of Leica's newest M lenses, I'm of the opinion that their lenses keep getting better. The new 21lux is killer. Expensive ... but, still killer. Even the modestly priced summarits are strong lenses.

    Relatively speaking, the S2 is certainly a lot more expensive than a lot of other options. But, and here's the rub, if you're obsessed with the extra few percentage points of image quality ... and, there is a user base out there that is interested, they'll swallow hard and pay the price.

    Kurt

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Hank Graber View Post
    I'd put it this way. We are not now in an economic climate for quality at any price. What is needed is good enough for my application at the right price. Clients don't pay for what they can't use so photographers who want to stay solvent better match equipment purchases to what clients are actually paying for.
    .....
    Your point is well taken- we all make choices. However, there is a difference between saying something is of high quality, and then complaining that it is not affordable. Companies and products like Leica, Four Seasons, Mercedes, organic foods brick vs siding houses will either sell to those who appreciate the quality, or they will go out of business because comparable quality is available cheaper from someone else. We have had a lot of experience in this country with stuff that 'just works' then breaks (cars), or falls down (300,000 bridges) or tastes like paper (strip mined tomatoes)

    To rail that Leica is doing 'badly' by photographers simply because the price is too high doesn't make sense. Several here have pointed to the R&D needed to bring a product as the S2 to market-they marvel it is similar to a Hasselblad. We need to see if it matches or beats hasseies. If the latter then the price is fair. Leica might still have trouble but many will go for the quality.

    I am astonished the length of a thread where most are basically yelling at a company for just trying to do its business. Why not wait and have a real debate-quality vs price. Right now the assumption is 'high price for a glorified Nikon" rather than "too bad not cheaper at higher quality than Hasselblad."

    Victor

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Well, the grip on the 1Ds3 costs about $5500, comparing to the 5D2

    I think $1295 is quite reasonable, considering that it is made with magic from mythrill by ancient gnomes in the deepest caverns below the Harz mountains
    In all seriousness.... the hand grip isn't the usual plastic N/C job for $299. It is made of magnesium alloy, same as the camera. No inconvenient screw-in wheel to fuss with (that comes loose anyway), just a single spring-loaded slider. One handed, you can slide the release over, put the grip on the camera, then release and the grip is locked on securely. Just as easy to remove with one hand, as well. Also keep in mind that even with the hand grip attached, the camera (and grip) remains fully weather-sealed.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    At the risk of getting people's knickers in a twist (is that right?): you could argue that the Leica Platinum service option is a bargain compared to the Phase version. After all, Phase backs rarely fail, so they keep more of the money. You might well get your money's worth from the Leica plan.

    Yes but much of the money that's paid for Phase One Value Add Warranties is applied to maintaining inventory that just sits on the shelf waiting for something bad to happen. So regardless of the rate of failure, a large part of the cost incurred by Phase One is in the form of "just in case" insurance.


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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    Yes but much of the money that's paid for Phase One Value Add Warranties is applied to maintaining inventory that just sits on the shelf waiting for something bad to happen. So regardless of the rate of failure, a large part of the cost incurred by Phase One is in the form of "just in case" insurance.


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    well, only to a certain extent. In a recent warranty visit my P65+ made to Denmark, I was provided a P45+ loaner. I thought the idea was a loaner of the same back

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    I am astonished the length of a thread where most are basically yelling at a company for just trying to do its business. Why not wait and have a real debate-quality vs price. Right now the assumption is 'high price for a glorified Nikon" rather than "too bad not cheaper at higher quality than Hasselblad."

    Victor

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Jack no worries - dont confuse me with a person endowed with a thin skin

    We are all pretty much of the same opinion - lets wait and see - because too many of us have been singed by past experience(s)..

    Guy - no need to apologise - we are all old dogs in here..

    Price is an important issue - but for me - I have serious questions about the actuall quality - that is the real issue for me rather than a few thousand here or there. The actual cost of extra warranty makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up ...and the radar sirens start blurting out at high DBs.

    As for Hasselblad and Phase One - I have no interest in their business models anymore. I am not going to pay mega bucks for marginal increases in real world utility - to me the rumoured M9 is of far more interest than anything from anyone else out there closely followed by the RED new chips and technology..yeah i would pay big bucks for a 617 chip - and ditch every MFD system I currently own for the pleasure of that. it is revolutionary technology.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post

    I am astonished the length of a thread where most are basically yelling at a company for just trying to do its business. Why not wait and have a real debate-quality vs price. Right now the assumption is 'high price for a glorified Nikon" rather than "too bad not cheaper at higher quality than Hasselblad."
    Victor,

    You make a fair point. My apologies if it seemed I was "yelling" at Leica. Speaking for myself, I want Leica to hit a huge home run with the S2. I want it to be the best MF digital camera out there. For sure, it will be in a class of its own.

    The thing I am fearing on the S2 release is that the homework may not get properly done ahead of time. And if that is the case in this economy, it could spell doom for the system before it can ever gain legs. Then I see any response to the S2 other than glowing could (will?) significantly impair production of the R10 and M9, both products I want to see make it to market soon and as a huge hit...

    Cheers,
    Jack
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    well, only to a certain extent. In a recent warranty visit my P65+ made to Denmark, I was provided a P45+ loaner. I thought the idea was a loaner of the same back

    Victor

    I agree loaners should match the disabled patient. Frequently with newer products - or backordered products - they sometimes do not. This is fairly common with many manufacturers, though it should not be. At the least, anyone purchasing a product that is new where there is a chance that a loaner may not match what they have should be notified in writing by the manufacturer of that possibility at the time of purchase.

    It's something manufacturers typically don't want to admit to. But it's the right thing to do and customers would appreciate the honesty.

    By the way I agree with you also (to return to topic) that the hullabaloo over the Leica S2 pricing is misplaced or over dramatized. Compared to existing medium format offerings, the cost is higher, but not outrageously so, and it is a Leica product after all. I believe photographers who hold dear what Leica is known for will purchase (those who can afford it). In other words, the more well heeled of Leica's traditional market.

    However, it seems that Leica is attempting to draw success with the professional market as well, and this is a different puppy. I'm not sold that Leica will succeed there and I don't think anyone will know until we see rubber meet the road. That said, I have the feeling Leica is counting on being successful with their traditional market and anything extra is gravy.


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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    I am quite surprized of all these reactions here. The S2 is really expensive that is sure. But am I wrong or these view camera kit with a digital back with large format digital lens kit are far more expensive no ?

    I know the use is not the same, but I have the feeling that some people in this forum have put a lot of money in MF system that are now a bit "old' (digitally speaking) and the crisis and the low dollar value exclude them from the game.

    If the business go on, many could change their mind...

    Anyway a good photo is first a good photograph...Think of the great classical pictures who have been shot with a point and shoot !!!

    Sure, I love gear !!!! But since I am a Leica afficionados, I have never seen something affordable in this brand ! I personnaly won't go for this system as it's not my personnal shooting style...but who knows ???
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by steflaurent974 View Post
    I am quite surprized of all these reactions here. The S2 is really expensive that is sure. But am I wrong or these view camera kit with a digital back with large format digital lens kit are far more expensive no ?
    of course. But tech cameras in particular are more a long time investment. You don't like to "upgrade" the entire unit rather than just the back. Image you'd have to swap an entire arTec, Rm3d or F2/F3 unit... every 3 years (or so).

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    I've had a look at the figures that so many are discussing here, and I really don't understand what the fuzz is all about:

    A Hasselblad H3DII-50 with a 80mm f/2.8 costs $25,000 (Adorama)
    A Leica S2 with 70mm f/2.5 costs $27,500

    The Hasselblad has a slightly larger sensor than the Leica and roughly 30% more megapixels. It's a camera that, starting with the H1, has been in production for several years. Camera and lenses are made in Japan by Fuji. Nothing wrong with that, but most Fuji cameras are cheaper than most Leica cameras. It's a rather large camera in traditional MF style and weighs 2,300g with lens.

    The Leica weighs almost as much as the Hasselblad with lens, at 2,100g (body 1,300g and lens 800g), but it's considerably more compact. Two bodies and a selection of lenses, ready to shoot, can easily be carried in a moderately sized camera bag. It's also smaller than a Nikon D3X. Body and lenses are weather sealed, and has the form factor of a DSLR, which is preferred by millions of photographers worldwide. There is also a vertical grip available. It's a new design, which means that all development costs are also "new". Camera and lenses are, as far as we know, made in Germany.

    The Leica lenses are roughly twice as expensive as the Fujinons for the Hasselblad. Some of the Leicas are faster than the corresponding Fujinons.

    Both manufacturers have been on the verge of bankruptcy on at least one occasion each, but both have backing from rather wealthy investors at the moment.

    While investment in any camera system, particularly MF, is a rather costly operation, and a newly developed one more so than what has been on the market for a while, I cannot see any big differences here. Both systems have advantages and disadvantages versus each other, and Leica would be rather stupid not to make something different. Leica lenses have always been among the most expensive ones, so no surprises there. Again, Leica would be extremely naive not to cash in on their excellent reputation in this area.

    But an entrance ticket that is 10% higher for a new system, compared to one that has been on the market for many years isn't much to write home about if you ask me.

    Yes, I know that Mamiya is cheaper, but that's nothing new either. People do buy Leica M7 even if a Bessa is cheaper too, and really does the same job.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    I also doubt that I personally can justify or afford it in any way any time soon, but I can tell you 100% that if I had the possibility, I would be looking at this camera very seriously.
    I might be able to invest the money if I plan/play it right, but I am no way considering the S System instead of the Hasselblad or Phase Systems.

    The camera body with fixed built in sensor is the show stopper for me. Not enough flexibility for tech work and for upgrades. Which is imperative at these price levels.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    I've had a look at the figures that so many are discussing here, and I really don't understand what the fuzz is all about:

    A Hasselblad H3DII-50 with a 80mm f/2.8 costs $25,000 (Adorama)
    A Leica S2 with 70mm f/2.5 costs $27,500
    Jorgen,

    this is exactly the point, the H3D2-50 with standard lens is far better in resolution, flexibility of the system and SW and has a proven track record, whereas the S2 is more expensive, less resolution, less flexibility and has no SW coming with it (I am talking about manufacturer generated SW like Phocus or C1Pro) and the support and the reliability of the S System is just in the stars for the next couple of years.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Jorgen,

    this is exactly the point, the H3D2-50 with standard lens is far better in resolution, flexibility of the system and SW and has a proven track record, whereas the S2 is more expensive, less resolution, less flexibility and has no SW coming with it (I am talking about manufacturer generated SW like Phocus or C1Pro) and the support and the reliability of the S System is just in the stars for the next couple of years.
    Not to mention that the extended warranty (for at least the H3D-II) is a fraction of the S2 added warranty ... since Hasselblad reduced the price of added service protection.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Does the S2 and its lenses come with a standard factory warrany or not? Or do you have to choose one of the extra cost warranties? I can't seem to figure this out.

    If you have to buy one, then the price is even more than $27,500. for the base kit because no warranty on a new MFD camera is just nuts. Once you've used it for a good number of months or shots with no issues, then the warranty need fades in importance IMHO.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by KurtKamka View Post
    Wow ... hard to make it through this whole thread in a day.

    The S2 may not be in my immediate future now that there are M9 rumors flying, but, a few years down the road I'd definitely be interested. If anything, this financial crisis has us all looking more carefully at the payback/depreciation curve a little more carefully.

    Getting beyond the initial price discussion, I'm of the mind that the S2 will do well. Like most others here, I have used every form of Canon and Nikon body over the past five years as well as a MFDB. If there aren't any blatant DOH! moments like the IR issue, end users who care about image quality will probably take note of what the S2 in all likelihood will deliver. Why? Because, while Leica engineers may be obstinate and hard to understand at times, they have proven themselves as having a great eye for final image quality. Simply put, the DMR and M8 deliver the IQ goods. And, when you add autofocus Leica lenses to the equation ... I'll be paying attention.

    As a side-note, having tried a few of Leica's newest M lenses, I'm of the opinion that their lenses keep getting better. The new 21lux is killer. Expensive ... but, still killer. Even the modestly priced summarits are strong lenses.

    Relatively speaking, the S2 is certainly a lot more expensive than a lot of other options. But, and here's the rub, if you're obsessed with the extra few percentage points of image quality ... and, there is a user base out there that is interested, they'll swallow hard and pay the price.

    Kurt
    Totally agree Kurt. I'm setting aside my spare and rare pennies for the M9, which I want/desire/need more than yet another MFD solution.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Does the S2 and its lenses come with a standard factory warrany or not? Or do you have to choose one of the extra cost warranties? I can't seem to figure this out.

    If you have to buy one, then the price is even more than $27,500. for the base kit because no warranty on a new MFD camera is just nuts. Once you've used it for a good number of months or shots with no issues, then the warranty need fades in importance IMHO.
    Can you sell something without warranty in the states?
    In Europe there is a legal 2 year standard warranty, whether you like it or not!

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Can you sell something without warranty in the states?
    In Europe there is a legal 2 year standard warranty, whether you like it or not!
    So what are the two different S2 warranties that you have to pay for? If you get a manditory 2 year warrany in Europe, what extra are you paying for?

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    It is not a warranty, it is a service plan. Lenders, guaranteed turn-around times, that sort of thing. It is more about keeping downtime to a minimum. Warranty you will get in any case, but the work might be performed slower.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    The camera body with fixed built in sensor is the show stopper for me. Not enough flexibility for tech work and for upgrades. Which is imperative at these price levels.
    This has nothing to do with price levels. It has to do with what *you* need. If you need a tech camera (strange, since you have never had one; how did you survive?), then you can't use the Leica.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    this is exactly the point, the H3D2-50 with standard lens is far better in resolution
    Keeping things in perspective here, as an example, the difference between 37.5 and 50 MP is a bit larger than the difference between A3 and A3+, but nowhere near A2... Jack, Guy and others have gone on the record saying that the differences between 22MP and 31MP, or 31MP and 39MP, and so on, are not that visible most of the time. I think that some of the features of the different cameras are far more important than the minor effective difference in resolution.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    But an entrance ticket that is 10% higher for a new system, compared to one that has been on the market for many years isn't much to write home about if you ask me.

    Yes, I know that Mamiya is cheaper, but that's nothing new either. People do buy Leica M7 even if a Bessa is cheaper too, and really does the same job.
    Quite agree Jorgen
    and if the sticking point is that people don't trust Leica support, then they wouldn't buy it if it were cheaper either.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Jorgen,

    this is exactly the point, the H3D2-50 with standard lens is far better in resolution, flexibility of the system and SW and has a proven track record, whereas the S2 is more expensive, less resolution, less flexibility and has no SW coming with it (I am talking about manufacturer generated SW like Phocus or C1Pro) and the support and the reliability of the S System is just in the stars for the next couple of years.
    Far better resolution is to overstate it a bit. The Leica sensor is around 7500 x 5000 pixels, while the Hasselblad is 8176 x 6132. That means that the Hasselblad sensor with regards to pixel count is 9% wider and 23% taller (the Hasselblad has an aspect ratio of 4:3 and the Leica 3:2). But if the Leica lenses are better than the Fuji lenses, that advantage may fast turn into dust.

    There's obviously more options available for the H3D. The camera that it's based on was launched seven years ago, while the Leica isn't yet on the market. But that also means that at least parts of the technology in the Hasselblad is seven years old.

    Obviously, there's a risk buying new technology. I believe some of those who bought the first cameras in the H-series had some experiences they could well have been without, not to mention the situation that arose when Hasselblad launched the H3D and closed the door to the past, and to the future for many H2 owners.

    The fact that there's no proprietary software available for the S2 has nothing to do with the price, but with the usability of the camera. For many photographers, this is a big issue, but for others, it's not. If the camera sells, and I'm more than convinced that it will, software will appear that can do the job.

    As for flexibility, it also depends on what glasses you wear. For me, flexibility means having a camera that is ready when I am, is compact enough to carry anywhere, and can live the life that I live. Even getting through customs in some countries I travel to is difficult if you carry something that doesn't look like a "normal" camera.

    The professional photographers of the future doesn't know what a darkroom is, and probably take their first photos with a Nokia. To them, a traditional MF camera is ancient technology. The alternative for them won't be a Hasselblad or a Mamiya, but a Scarlet. That's the flexible solution for the future, for studio, for landscapes and for video too.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Does the S2 and its lenses come with a standard factory warrany or not? Or do you have to choose one of the extra cost warranties? I can't seem to figure this out.

    If you have to buy one, then the price is even more than $27,500. for the base kit because no warranty on a new MFD camera is just nuts. Once you've used it for a good number of months or shots with no issues, then the warranty need fades in importance IMHO.
    The S2 and lenses come with a standard 12-month transferable warranty.

    The Premium and Platinum Service Packages both extend the warranty period for an additional 12 months and add other benefits.

    For instance, both packages include swap-out replacements during the first three months. If anything goes wrong/breaks during this period, Leica will just overnight you a new camera/lens instead of repairing your camera. Generally speaking, most mechanical and/or electronic equipment will fail during the first 30-60 days if it is going to fail due to a defect. They also both include a 30% discount on non-warranty-covered repairs, such as accidental damage due to drops.

    The Platinum package includes a shutter and/or central shutter replacement. In the case of a heavy user (like a busy, constantly working pro or rental studio), this can be a great benefit. Say you've had the S2 for 1 year, 11 months, and 3 weeks. You have shot 100,000 shots and everything is still working fine. As your service package is close to expiring, you send in your camera for the included maintenance service. Leica does a full CLA, brings everyting up to spec, and installs a brand new shutter, thus extending the life of the camera. For heavy users and rental studios this is a great deal, as Hasselblad charges $1800 for a central shutter replacement (per lens) and this is not offered in their CCP plan. The Platinum package also includes free loaner gear if yours is in for repair.

    Keep in mind that as a Leica Professional Dealer, we will also have rental/loaner gear that we can provide to our customers regardless of service package. So, even if one of my customers gets the Premium package (no loaner gear from Leica), I can still send out a courtesy loaner to him/her to cover a job. And, even if Leica has a dedicated S2 support line (they will), I'd fully expect that my customers will contact me 24/7 as their first point of contact. At this level, having a good dealer that you trust is extremely important, regardless of the service package you purchase.

    David
    Last edited by dfarkas; 5th August 2009 at 05:43.
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    "Two bodies and a selection of lenses, ready to shoot, can easily be carried in a moderately sized camera bag." By one of your staffers or bodyguards.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    "Two bodies and a selection of lenses, ready to shoot, can easily be carried in a moderately sized camera bag." By one of your staffers or bodyguards.
    The S2 weighs the same as a Nikon D3 or D3X and 100g less than a Canon 1DIII or 1DsIII. It's also considerably smaller than all of those cameras unless a vertical grip is fitted. I believe it's even smaller than my Fuji S3.

    One body and 3 lenses would even fit in my Kata DR-467 Digital Rucksack, still leaving enough room for a netbook, backup HDD, battery chargers and clothes for 2-3 days.
    Last edited by Jorgen Udvang; 5th August 2009 at 06:36.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Question for David F... Are the announced prices guaranteed if you are on the wait list. With the dollar spiraling downward I can't help but wonder at what point Leica might find itself forced to increase pricing.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by steflaurent974 View Post
    I am quite surprized of all these reactions here. The S2 is really expensive that is sure. But am I wrong or these view camera kit with a digital back with large format digital lens kit are far more expensive no ?

    I know the use is not the same, but I have the feeling that some people in this forum have put a lot of money in MF system that are now a bit "old' (digitally speaking) and the crisis and the low dollar value exclude them from the game.

    If the business go on, many could change their mind...

    Anyway a good photo is first a good photograph...Think of the great classical pictures who have been shot with a point and shoot !!!

    Sure, I love gear !!!! But since I am a Leica afficionados, I have never seen something affordable in this brand ! I personnaly won't go for this system as it's not my personnal shooting style...but who knows ???
    I paid roughly the same for an arTec body, a 33MP Sinar back, a 35mm Rodenstock lens, a loupe what you pay for an S2.
    Yes, 33MP is less resolution, but than again I can use the same back on any other MF-camera.

    if discussing S2 prices you have to make sure that you talk about the same. I have seen S2 price which included 15/18% VAT, most Hassy, Phase, Sinar prices we see are without any VAT/Tax.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    The S2 weighs the same as a Nikon D3 or D3X and 100g less than a Canon 1DIII or 1DsIII. It's also considerably smaller than all of those cameras unless a vertical grip is fitted. I believe it's even smaller than my Fuji S3.

    One body and 3 lenses would even fit in my Kata DR-467 Digital Rucksack, still leaving enough room for a netbook, backup HDD, battery chargers and clothes for 2-3 days.
    Yes, but a D3x has an integrated grip so you would have to compare the S2 with a D700 or you would have to add the grip to the S2 for a fair comparison. The same about lenses. The S2system wont be much lighter than other MF-systems, maybe the body somewhat smaller.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    The prices quoted for those lenses are a bit of a shocker....especially as I understand that they are "leicarised" Bronica designs. Not that there is anything wrong with leicarising per se as after all some of the early Leica reflex lenses were Minolta designs and even manufactured by Minolta in some instances. They were and still are superb lenses.

    However, like Guy and Jack I shall be passing on the S2. Not least because I did not like the way in which Leica management pulled the plug on the R10 and R system after building it up after Photokina. If they can do it once then they can do it again with the S2 system one day...........and that would be a lot of serious cash to jeopardise.

    I respect the Leica quality but I no longer trust their management......and I am very sorry about that.
    Cheers, Dave
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    I paid roughly the same for an arTec body, a 33MP Sinar back, a 35mm Rodenstock lens, a loupe what you pay for an S2.
    Yes, 33MP is less resolution, but than again I can use the same back on any other MF-camera.
    The S2 is obviously a no-go for those who need other types of bodies, but only a small fraction of photographers do that.

    This may also be one of the reasons why the R10 was killed. That would not have been a cheap camera either, and the lenses probably as expensive as those for the S2. As soon as those with an arsenal of R-lenses had bought their bodies, the S2 would probably have killed further sales, leaving Leica unable to pay for the development costs of bodies as well as new AF lenses for the R-system.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by dhsimmonds View Post

    I respect the Leica quality but I no longer trust their management......and I am very sorry about that.
    I think that it's hard to blame their management for the R10 decision, which was surely made in the face of the biggest world depression since the 30's

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    Yes, but a D3x has an integrated grip so you would have to compare the S2 with a D700 or you would have to add the grip to the S2 for a fair comparison. The same about lenses. The S2system wont be much lighter than other MF-systems, maybe the body somewhat smaller.
    The S2 seems to be about the same size as the D700, but it's 200g heavier. The big difference compared to other MF cameras is partly the size of the body, but in particular the shape. A body without lens is very thin, like any DSLR, and can be carried in a very small bag together with a few lenses. The boxy shape of the Hasselblad and Mamiya simply doesn't allow that to the same degree.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    I think that it's hard to blame their management for the R10 decision, which was surely made in the face of the biggest world depression since the 30's
    I think they could have made faster andmore cash with just a new R10 which should accept existing Leica lenses.
    People could have started with their existing class (meaning it would be financially easier to get into a new R system) and afterwards maybe add AF lenses step by step.

    So yes, I would blame the management for that decission.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    The camera body with fixed built in sensor is the show stopper for me. Not enough flexibility for tech work and for upgrades. Which is imperative at these price levels.

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    This has nothing to do with price levels. It has to do with what *you* need. If you need a tech camera (strange, since you have never had one; how did you survive?), then you can't use the Leica.
    LOL, see this video (starting at 1:57) for why Ptomsu wants a system with a tech body. Just look as his big goofy Austrian smile.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2C8dF...e=channel_page

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    if discussing S2 prices you have to make sure that you talk about the same. I have seen S2 price which included 15/18% VAT, most Hassy, Phase, Sinar prices we see are without any VAT/Tax.
    without Dollar exchange but in Euros this is the picture:

    AFD-3, M31, 80mm = 15.500 (incl. 1 year classical)
    P1, P30+, 80mm = 16.400 (incl. 1 year classical)
    P1, P40+, 80mm = 20.000 (incl. 1 year classical)
    H3D2-31, 80mm = 10000 - 14000
    Leica S2, 70mm = 24.000,- (lens without leaf shutter; incl. "small" premium service body & lens)

    all incl. 19% VAT

    I don't understand why to compare to a H3D2-39 or -50 or to a P45+ ...

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by dhsimmonds View Post
    However, like Guy and Jack I shall be passing on the S2. Not least because I did not like the way in which Leica management pulled the plug on the R10 and R system after building it up after Photokina. If they can do it once then they can do it again with the S2 system one day...........and that would be a lot of serious cash to jeopardise.

    I respect the Leica quality but I no longer trust their management......and I am very sorry about that.
    Camera manufacturers do that all the time. Canon did it when they changed from FD to EF mount, Hasselblad disconnected a lot of users with the H3D, Olympus changed mount when they went digital, and Nikon has so many incompatibilities that I can't even count them.

    Leica, on the other hand, still produces a camera system where you can use most of the lenses that they made in pre-historic times (before I was born anyway), while all others discontinued their rangefinder cameras.

    Any camera system can be discontinued overnight and any camera manufacturer can go bankrupt tomorrow.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Jorgen,

    You missed my point, which was that two bodies a a set of lenses will cost $100,000.

    Steve

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