Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

[jonoslack]

My thinking exactly.

You seem to be assuming that they can make enough to be able to do this. It's not a great idea to sell bodies cheap (which you can't make enough of) as a loss leader for lenses (which you can't make enough of either).

If you find you've miscalculated, and you can't sell the bodies at a profit, and therefore you aren't selling the lenses either . . . well, that might be a time to drop the price.

I guess they did the math and figured they had enough Sultans, Princes and potentates to sell 1,000 units. In this economic environment taking a $50,000 flyer on a new system does not make business sense for anyone.

Nor does spending $20,000 if you already have a kit which works and you aren't doing the turnover.

On the other hand, if you're a truck driver working for yourself, you're going to have to pay twice this much for a truck.

 

[Geoff]

Leica, as expected, priced the S2 using the M8/DMR model. Old habits are hard to break (assuming you even want to break them), the KoolAid is freshly mixed in Solms and this one's obviously a strong batch.

They'll likely sell their target 1000 units to the well-monied Leica faithful - the expected price justification from some is starting to intermingle with the shock from the rest on LUF already.

However, that 1000 units WON'T be to the 10% of the typical MF market they spoke of. Those folks are just shaking their heads - as they're unwilling, especially in today's world, to take a Solms-derived time travel trip back to 2007-2008 MFDB pricing - especially for a new entrant with an iffy (digital) new-model intro, S&S history, etc.

The majority of the actual buyers of the S2 at these $$$ will never have been in the market for a Hassy or Phamiya. However, now that Leica has an SLR back in the game and it happens to have a > 24x36mm sensor, they will become Leica-specific MF customers. In short, they won't be stealing share, but creating a small, niche market that happens to own what could be described as either an MF camera or a large DSLR depending on your mood and ego.

A handful of 'superstar' pros may acquire one to play with, but it will be one of many high-end systems they own - the bulk of which will derive the bulk of their revenue-generating work. As to the service such folks will receive - it's of little concern. If you're public profile is high enough, premium white-glove swap-out, etc service is a given from ANY vendor who's not an utter idiot.

Had Solms swapped the Kool-Aid for some Red Bull and looked fwd instead of backward at Leica 'tradition' (one of the great hazards of having a CEO/Owner who is one of the faithful), things might have been VERY, VERY different - assuming word got around that their service and support measured up. This was a chance, (very) arguably THE chance, for Leica (technology aside) to remodel itself and it's business habits -- and it stuck to the formula.

The trick will be as to whether or not, as Hassy and Phase (and Nikon, Canon and Sony) keep lowering the price/performance bar if that 1000 unit market (which will top-out in body sales relatively quickly in terms of years and units) will be enough to take Leica fwd comfortably.

Very well put. The problem isn't whether they will sell 1,000 units - the problem is that the strategy they have adopted fits very well in the "new niche market" as noted above. They'll sell the 1,000 units - but then the next year, or the year after, they won't sell. And they'll be right back in the DMR dilemma - the faithful want them to continue, but there are just no new sales to prop up the machine.

Leica can always find 1,000 who will support them - the issue is rather the ongoing 1,000 per annum that they seem to lose.

Geoff

 

[LJL]

I agree 100% and admire Leica for attempting this project... It's kind of sad to read the comments in this forum (and others) trashing the system already...

Mike,
Maybe I missed a lot in the reading, but I have not really seen anybody trashing the new Leica S2 system in this thread. There is a lot of trashing the Leica pricing scheme, and that is sort of the focus coming from the just released pricing schedule. I think a lot of folks are impressed that Leica attempted this, and a lot do hope they succeed. I am one of those for sure. My disappointment was believing Leica when they talked about all the cost savings and stuff that would make this system possible for a new market segment (those in 35mm DSLR wanting more, plus some MF folks looking for more of the DSLR handling and "contained complexity" for lack of a better way to describe it).

I still think the S2 system has tremendous potential, and could be somewhat of a game changer between 35mm DSLR and MFDB systems. That does appear to be a possible target market that may have been willing to jump in, but after seeing the breathtaking pricing scheme more like the old Leica offerings, it just seems a bit too much for many potential buyers, myself included.

So, I agree that trashing the S2 system is unwarranted, unless it does fail miserably in performance, but trashing the marketing and pricing schemes that Leica is positing seems pretty fair game at this point.

LJ

 

[iiiNelson]

I agree 100% and admire Leica for attempting this project... It's kind of sad to read the comments in this forum (and others) trashing the system already...

I can understand your frustration in the comments. I don't think people are trashing the product so much as the marketing strategy. I don't think most people here WANT Leica to fail but given the economy, the competition, and several other factors the company often leaves people scratching their heads. Traditions are one thing and understanding the market for long term self sustainability is another. Outside the niche and quirks of the M-System they really don't have much to stand on.

I hate to reiterate this but the focus should have been on on the R10 as there are already an existing line of lenses. There would only be a need to make AF versions of existing lenses and fill the gaps in the R-System. Yes it would cost more than the mass market SLR's, yes there would be questions about the electronic ability, but there would be more people willing to buy into it if nothing else for Leica optics.

 

[etrigan63]

TBH, I was waiting for the official USA pricing to be delivered on high from Mount Solms before making my decision about MF digital. As someone who wants to make money with his photography, I cannot justify this cost in any business plan when the alternatives on the market are a much better deal. Unless the IQ is orders of magnitude better than all the rest combined, I don't see this camera making a dent in the market. I am planning to go Phamiya/Cambo for my MFD needs.

Maybe Leica will survive long enough to adopt the Hummer product philosophy. Hummer produced their most expensive model first, the H1 and sold quite a few (but not market-shakingly so) to the well-heeled, discriminating buyer with cash. They then introduced the H2, a smaller, more fuel-efficient, less expensive version which did much better. Then they came up with the H3 - Hummer for the masses, which did very, very well compared to the H1 & H2.

Granted, Hummer did have a military contract to start off with and keep them afloat during the "growing pains" phase.

 

[TRSmith]

Regardless of whether they meet or even exceed their sales goals, in terms of capitalizing on the marketing opportunity of introducing a brand new system, this price announcement sounds more like a thud than a chorus of hallelujah.

I'm sure it will be a splendid camera in every way. I'm proud (as a Leica owner) of their R&D and wonderful design. But I have yet to see any images from it except those from months ago during the video demo. Even if it lives up to every bit of marketing hyperbole, Leica has chosen to aim for an elite club/market. And as others have suggested, if the strategic direction for the future of Leica is to be based around the S2, that's a club I'll not soon be enrolled in as a member.

All this time I was madly saving my pennies for a nice middle of the line Porche 911 only to find out what's really being sold is a Ferrari Enzo. Again, bummer.

 

[carstenw]

Brad, I know what you mean, but 1000 cameras per year in a world of 6-7 billion people is not exactly "quantity". Perhaps Leica plans to sell to well-heeled photographers as well as collectors and rich people in general in year 1, only to sell based on earned reputation in year 2...

Personally, I think they won't need to. There must be thousands and thousands of well-established pros in fashion photography using DSLRs who are looking for that advantage over their peers, and for whom the money can be justified by the subsequent increase in high-end business...

 

[LJL]

Maybe Leica will survive long enough to adopt the Hummer product philosophy. Hummer produced their most expensive model first, the H1 and sold quite a few (but not market-shakingly so) to the well-heeled, discriminating buyer with cash. They then introduced the H2, a smaller, more fuel-efficient, less expensive version which did much better. Then they came up with the H3 - Hummer for the masses, which did very, very well compared to the H1 & H2.

Granted, Hummer did have a military contract to start off with and keep them afloat during the "growing pains" phase.

and they also transformed from building the H1 from the ground up to using existing GM frames and drivetrains for the H2 and H3. So what should we anticipate the S3 to be.....a smaller cheaper version built on the R platform that has now been discontinued?

LJ

 

[carstenw]

That said, the market will be efficient in good times, so maybe Leica needs to be patient. Also, I have no doubt the S2 system will be as good, or better in some ways than Hasselblad-and you will spenf 40-50K new for that as well.

Interesting point, and very true... I wonder if Leica isn't actually expecting any MFers to switch, but is counting purely on DSLRers to upgrade... If so, and at similar prices for the Hasselblad system, the Leica system has some major advantages in speed and integration, something which DSLRers are used to.

 

[LJL]

Regardless of whether they meet or even exceed their sales goals, in terms of capitalizing on the marketing opportunity of introducing a brand new system, this price announcement sounds more like a thud than a chorus of hallelujah.

Tim, this sums it up nicely. :thumbup:

LJ

 

[jonoslack]

Interesting point, and very true... I wonder if Leica isn't actually expecting any MFers to switch, but is counting purely on DSLRers to upgrade... If so, and at similar prices for the Hasselblad system, the Leica system has some major advantages in speed and integration, something which DSLRers are used to.

HI Carsten
I think you've hit the nail on the head - if you already spent $50,000 on Hassy or Phase gear (which is now worth $25,000) then Leica would be mad to expect you to take that loss and spend the money all over again.

I never believed they would be taking many existing MF users - but if I was planning on moving in that direction these prices wouldn't stop me (anyway, they're what we expected aren't they?).

 

[etrigan63]

and they also transformed from building the H1 from the ground up to using existing GM frames and drivetrains for the H2 and H3. So what should we anticipate the S3 to be.....a smaller cheaper version built on the R platform that has now been discontinued?

LJ

I've seen mockups of a Leica S5 floating around the rumor mills. Smaller body, same lenses. Don't ask how they'd pull that off but using R-technology and scaled-down S-lenses (to R-format) or S-autofocus retrofitted onto R-lens designs and the FF sensor rumored to be in the M9...

 

[Erik Five]

Not even will they start at this price, but Leica will probably set the price even higher three times before next summer. Just like they have done with the M line the last years. Sorry, but I´m not riding on this boat...

 

[arashm]

There must be thousands and thousands of well-established pros in fashion photography using DSLRs who are looking for that advantage over their peers, and for whom the money can be justified by the subsequent increase in high-end business...

actually those guys would much rather spend their money on better retouchers and stylists....

Most of them do just fine with a 1Ds3
am

 

[Ben Rubinstein]

Of course Hasselblad will drop their prices another couple of K before the Leica hits the street if the intention is woowing DSLR users.

 

[carstenw]

Most of them do just fine with a 1Ds3

Agreed. It is the difference between "most" and "all" which is interesting here. The top few hundred or thousand might be looking to take a step forward in quality and resolution. It remains to be seen.

 

[tashley]

I have another take.

I'm not interested in whether their pricing is 'right' or 'wrong' other than that as an owner of some of their gear I'd prefer the S2 not to bankrupt them. I'm sorry that people feel disappointed or let down - but there seems to be the faintest whiff of moral outrage around at the pricing... or maybe I'm just imagining that bit?

Whatever. My hope for the system was that it might banish the need for me to have both an SLR and a MF setup. Like one or two others here I was maybe thinking that I could sell my P45+ and Phamiya setup and my 5DII and glass and just have one system to deal with. But the release of pricing has really focussed my mind on this as a real rather than a theoretical choice and I have to say that unless the test and user reports on the S2 are astonishing, I won't be going for it because on reflection it can't replace either my SLR kit OR my MF kit.

It can't replace my MF kit: I HATE my Phamiya 645III body. It is a dinosaur of the worst kind. I would dearly love the resolution of a P45+ (or thereabouts) on a camera with proper AF, a mirror that didn't slam like a barn door, a shutter that didn't have the torque of a Ferrari and that didn't have a battery habit like a milk float...... and so on. But the truth is, I kinda like the P45+ on my Cambo technical camera with Schneider glass. I like the movements and the precision and the surprisingly small and light form factor. So whatever tricks the S2 has that I would love to have, it lacks some I need.

It can't replace my SLR kit (5DII): as far as I can see from the Leica website it doesn't have live view. I seriously doubt that it can do clean ISO over 1000. It can't shoot video (which a year ago I wouldn't have given a damn about but now it matters). It won't let me do the odd long lens job (can you imagine how much they'd charge for a 300 or God Forbid 500 or 600mm equivalent lens?!).

In other words, it doesn't allow me to consolidate by replacing other kit and it doesn't offer enough in the middle ground to make me want to add yet another camera system. Especially at this price.

Exing out for the moment those 'doctors and princes' who will buy it because they can (and I have no problem with that whatsoever!) I have to stop thinking about how it will suit me (because unless it's truly incredible it won't) and think who it will suit.

Not the landscape photographer: even when the TS lens comes, the movements will be on the front.

Fine art photographers? Probably not: they are quite often landscape-like in their needs

Not the street shooter. Too big, too obvious, too expensive to get nicked or smashed, too shallow DOF.

Wedding guys with a really good business? Maybe but I think they're starting to get expected to supply some video and generally their revenues wouldn't support the system (they can't afford not to have a backup as well).

Sports/Editorial/News photographers. Nah. They need Canikons becaue they need a wide but compact range of focal lengths and are starting to have to produce video.

Fashion/glamour/portrait photographers with a mixture of studio and location work? If that was my only or very main work, I'd maybe spring for it.

So the more I look at the issue the more it seems to me that without video, and in a world where resolution requirements for professional output are actually falling in some sectors (anything with screen or small editorial as the likely destination) it's gonna appeal to a very narrow field.

I so want to justify buying one and to be honest with a bit of heavy eBay action and some high levels of self delusion I could afford it... but I won't. And I can't think of a single person who will. Which is a real pity cos I want to play with one without disappointing a dealer afterwards!

Tim

 

[Riccis]

PDN just released an article where Christian Erhardt addresses the S2 pricing (http://www.pdngearguide.com/gearguide/content_display/news/e3i6c373b8b2be6b84f034a4dfe18007090)

Cheers,

 

[bensonga]

Imagine how different the response on this thread would be if Leica had priced the body at ~$12k.....I'm guessing that alot of folks would have put their names on the waiting list, even with the high lens prices. Leica missed a game-changing opportunity here.

Personally, I still think a 50% premium over a D3x is about right. To me, pricing of an S2 vs the truly pro-level DSLRs is the real comparison (not the Phase One/Hasselbald interchangeable digital back systems).....as much as Leica might want us to think otherwise. But heh....as an amateur with no money for new toys, what do I know?

Gary

 

[bensonga]

PDN just released an article where Christian Erhardt addresses the S2 pricing (http://www.pdngearguide.com/gearguide/content_display/news/e3i6c373b8b2be6b84f034a4dfe18007090)

Cheers,

"Other features of the S2 he felt justified the $22,995 price tag include.....a full version of Adobe Lightroom that will ship with the camera..."

Oh yeah, that's got to be worth at least a few hundred dollars (x3)! :ROTFL:

Gary