Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

[stephengilbert]

Gary,

I already own Lightroom. I wonder if I could get a few thousand dollars off?

Steve

 

[bensonga]

PDN just released an article where Christian Erhardt addresses the S2 pricing (http://www.pdngearguide.com/gearguide/content_display/news/e3i6c373b8b2be6b84f034a4dfe18007090)

Cheers,

"Responding to questions why Leica choose not to offer a lens package with the Leica S2, Erhardt said: "It's Leica's policy to keep all the options open to the consumer rather than just bundle an entry-level lens with the S2."

I'm sorry....this just keeps getting better and better. Clearly, Leica didn't have the consumer's best interests in mind when they offered an R9 entry-level package with the 35-70 lens.

"The entry-level set includes a LEICA R9 in classic black, featuring the high-grade LEICA VARIO-ELMAR-R 35-70 mm f/4, at a highly attractive price."

What we need here is a "highly attractive price". Too bad the folks at Leica didn't see it that way.

Gary

 

[bensonga]

Gary,

I already own Lightroom. I wonder if I could get a few thousand dollars off?

Steve

I would certainly hope so! :thumbs:

Gary

 

[Guy Mancuso]

You know what it should be and that is what counts. Regardless being a Pro or not you are a consumer. And no one on this planet can justify these costs to me , NO ONE. They frankly are irresponsible to what the market will bear. Seriously there is nothing a S2 has that a Hassy or Phase does not have , maybe some change in features but not starting at 6k than moving up to about 20k or more for a system wide setup. And yes i wanted one but you will not move me with overpricing by a country mile. This has nothing to do with anything but value for your dollar so really hearing how our reactions are to this is not what the issue is . Most of us would want to get in. That is not the issue , what is pushing the envelope way beyond reasonable and prudent even for the wealthy but more important what the competition already has as the standard as reasonable and prudent. These prices no matter how much you think there maybe some advantage to owning the Leica which it clearly is not does not justify these kinds of price swings. Not in MF for sure, 35mm than we are talking a different language. Last comment and i am already over it and looking back into my Phase kit. I honestly can't be motivated to buy even if money was no object.

 

[LJL]

Guy,
Interestingly, I am about at the same place in my mind. I figured Leica would carry a bit of premium that would be worth it if all goes well, but not the premium that they are asking at this point, given everything else.

There is a new calm that came across me after reading that PDN article where Erhardt steps all over things trying to "justify" the pricing. I laughed over the LR comment also, and realized they are just not getting it....the S2 is flatly overpriced in a most arrogant and foolish way on Leica's part, in my opinion. You are correct....no way they can now convince me to pony up for what could be a great system....unless they get very real and put the pricing much closer to the 56% difference over top end 35mm DSLRs, and stop saying it is a MF so it should be priced like one. It is neither, but closer to a 35mm DSLR in my mind at this point, but with killer optics and imaging potential, and should be more competitively priced along those lines.

Leica lost my interest at this point, and it will be tough to get it back. I still love my M8 and the glass I have for it, but even that glow is gone a bit more now. Just my thoughts over this debacle of Leica marketing ineptitude. They had a real opportunity to change the game, create a market lead position in a new niche with tons of potential, and instead they tout providing a full copy of Lightroom!!!! Insane.

LJ

 

[fotografz]

I dont post to this board often. Mostly because there usually is another member who says what i'm thinking in a much more eloquent way.

But today. Im pissed.

As a photographer who makes his living primarily shooting with M cameras I need Leica to stay in business. To remain strong, healthy, (and most of all) able to service my cameras and lenses.

So when i see that a fully blown out S2 system is going to cost 50k or so. And then i read that the S2 is 'the focus' for the company in the future.

I just shake my head. Maybe it is time to really give those zf lenses a go on a d3x. Not because the S2 wont be great. Just because, (and i pray its not) - it might be the anchor to finally sink an already leaky ship.

I hope the Hell not. I want/need the M9 to make it to market. My eggs are in that basket with the lenses and all.

I'm the creaky old ship here, and I need to be able to swap out to a M camera when doing weddings just for the relief :ROTFL:

 

[fotografz]

TBH, I was waiting for the official USA pricing to be delivered on high from Mount Solms before making my decision about MF digital. As someone who wants to make money with his photography, I cannot justify this cost in any business plan when the alternatives on the market are a much better deal. Unless the IQ is orders of magnitude better than all the rest combined, I don't see this camera making a dent in the market. I am planning to go Phamiya/Cambo for my MFD needs.

Maybe Leica will survive long enough to adopt the Hummer product philosophy. Hummer produced their most expensive model first, the H1 and sold quite a few (but not market-shakingly so) to the well-heeled, discriminating buyer with cash. They then introduced the H2, a smaller, more fuel-efficient, less expensive version which did much better. Then they came up with the H3 - Hummer for the masses, which did very, very well compared to the H1 & H2.

Granted, Hummer did have a military contract to start off with and keep them afloat during the "growing pains" phase.

A perfect example of a product that contributed to the insolvency of a company.

 

[bensonga]

I have another take.
<big snip of an interesting post>
Tim

Sad to say, but if Tim's evaluation is correct, Leica has a product which itself only fits a very small niche market....which they've made even smaller by the high price of entry.

Good luck with this one Leica....but I sure wish you had put a few of those research and development dollars into a digital R10 instead. I would have loved to put my R lenses to good use on one (someday).

Gary

 

[fotografz]

Of course Hasselblad will drop their prices another couple of K before the Leica hits the street if the intention is woowing DSLR users.

I would not be surprised if Hasselblad discontinued the H3D-II/31 in the near future.

Personally, I think that it is a losing game for them. They can do the price trick once to attract 35mm DSLR users, maybe twice, just like they did. Then the reality of it hits the consumer that the money loss is substantual unless they make a living with cameras, and MF isn't 35mm DSLRs.

 

[monza]

Sent to dealers, talking points attached.

From: Erhardt, Christian
To: Photo Reps
Sent: Thu, Jul 30, 2009 4:17 pm
Subject: Leica S2 comments / talking points

Dear all,

This morning we were asked by PDN Magazine to give an interview in regards to the S2 pricing. This interview was meant to reiterate some of the major talking points of this product that separate us from the lower-end medium format cameras.

Soon we will be able to address image quality, where we are confident to show a clear quality difference in regards to high ISO and other key measurement points.

For your own reference we have attached a document with the most talking point that have been released so far. A more detailed list will follow in the coming 2 weeks with a press release a complete spec sheet.

If you have any questions, please feel free to contact me any time.

http://www.pdngearguide.com/gearguide/content_display/news/e3i6c373b8b2be6b84f034a4dfe18007090

---
Best regards
Christian Erhardt

 

[fotografz]

You know what it should be and that is what counts. Regardless being a Pro or not you are a consumer. And no one on this planet can justify these costs to me , NO ONE. They frankly are irresponsible to what the market will bear. Seriously there is nothing a S2 has that a Hassy or Phase does not have , maybe some change in features but not starting at 6k than moving up to about 20k or more for a system wide setup. And yes i wanted one but you will not move me with overpricing by a country mile. This has nothing to do with anything but value for your dollar so really hearing how our reactions are to this is not what the issue is . Most of us would want to get in. That is not the issue , what is pushing the envelope way beyond reasonable and prudent even for the wealthy but more important what the competition already has as the standard as reasonable and prudent. These prices no matter how much you think there maybe some advantage to owning the Leica which it clearly is not does not justify these kinds of price swings. Not in MF for sure, 35mm than we are talking a different language. Last comment and i am already over it and looking back into my Phase kit. I honestly can't be motivated to buy even if money was no object.

It's too bad you feel that way Guy. YOU were a real potential target for this camera as it was moving toward your desire for a consolidated system to meet most if not all of your needs with one system ... something you have been clear about for some time now.

Like a few other folks here have stated, for me it can't replace my swift shooting, longer lens using D3X, dual card, user selected 51 AF points (that I actually use all the time) ... that's backed up by a super high ISO D3. It can't replace my H3D-II/39 since I use that on a Rollei Xact-II with digital view lenses.

I could eliminate the Sony ... and Hasselblad V system ... and the H3D-II/31 ... which would net enough to maybe buy the body with the "Peasant" warranty and poor man's LCD. But then I'd have to cash in some IRA's to get a lens ... oh wait, that money is in some Wall Street banker's account now, not mine. Sorry I forgot what year this was ... had a flash back to prosperious times :ROTFL: Maybe Leica forgot also?

 

[John Black]

I hope the Hell not. I want/need the M9 to make it to market. My eggs are in that basket with the lenses and all.

I'm the creaky old ship here, and I need to be able to swap out to a M camera when doing weddings just for the relief :ROTFL:

Now I'm scared to death that Leica will price the M9 at some ridiculous price level to offset for S2 losses... One way or another we're all stuck paying for the S2 (assuming we buy a new Leica M lens, accessory, etc).

 

[Stuart Richardson]

All I can say is "wow". This could be a perfect camera for me -- I would happily sell the entire Hy6 kit for it, as well as anything else I have laying around. But my lord, the pricing is pretty insane. I bought the DMR when it came out, I bought the M8 -- I am a huge Leica fan and their cameras and lenses work very well for my photography. But this is beyond the pale. The standard body price is about 5000 more than I was expecting (and 10,000 more than I was hoping), but this is really only part of it. You have to factor in the lens prices, as everyone else has mentioned, there are no other options. You must buy new lenses -- 20,000 USD for a moderate wide, standard lens, and moderate tele with lens shutters. I know they will be great, but it just doesn't make sense.

I know they sold less than 5000 DMR's, and this was with an embedded user base and people who already owned the camera and lenses -- all they had to buy was a digital back that was 5000 USD when it was released (into a MUCH better economic market). With this they will need to buy every piece of the kit, at 40,000-50,000. Selling 1000 might be a difficult task.

 

[cmb_]

How many $30 magazine covers would one need to sell and in what time frame over the expected usable lifespan of the S2 system to recoup your outlay and justify buying into the S2 system?

 

[David K]

Leica needs to do a "Cash for Clunkers" deal to the tune of about $10k for any old camera and lens

 

[Christopher]

Well I think Leica really missed it. I studied the prices again quite a few times and I'm still shocked.

The first problem is the 70mm lens. Sorry 4500 for a normal lens ? If you buy Phase or Hassi you get that lens with your body. I don't know about the hasso, BUT I know the Phase One 80mm D is REALLY good. Will the Leica be even better ? Yes, but I don't think anyone would ever see it. The 80mm from Phase is great even with the P65, wide open and sharp from corner to corner, there is nothing Leica could ad to that.

Second problem, real problem. What typ of service do you get without all these options ? The saem as with the M line ? Having to wait months for repairs and replays ?

I really hope Leica stays in business, but as I said before, these S2 prices will kill Leica in the next 2 years.

 

[charlesphoto]

Thing is, I don't even see sheiks and sultans ponying up for this. It's just too much camera for amateur shooters. It doesn't have that classic appeal and legacy and portability that say the M8 had. Yes, there are some very very wealthy photography buffs out there. But many wealthy people I know are just fine with a Canon p&s or maybe a Nikon D300 etc. Plus, how many dealers will actually have an S2 to fondle and play with? Even the M8 showed up in duty free shops - I seriously doubt that with a system like the S2. Yes, there are those out there who drop $100K on watches, but cameras are different. They just are.

And pros? hell, when Leibowitz is in trouble you know the industry is hurting. Personally I'm doing best these days with my archives - all shot on film Nikons and lenses which all cost me less than the damn S2 grip and charger.

Personally I find the premium pricing on service an insult and will put off even the pros that can afford this. They should drop that asap. It just makes them look bad, esp as they don't have the most stellar rep in servicing though M users will put up with it because the camera is so unique.

Love the camera and concept and I'm sure it would be seriously fun to shoot with. But they don't factor in all of the other costs of doing photography. Gear is really only a very small part of it and most shooters (myself included) are seriously scaling back esp now that 35 bodies in the $2-8K range have become so good it's best to get one and stick with it awhile as they'll only be getting better and cheaper the longer one waits.

 

[sinwen]

That's today (or last year). S2 product life must span 2010-2011 considering no realistic possibility of high volume ......

High volume is no problem for leica, they are "special editions" manufacturer:angel:.

Since the announcement of this S2 I keep saying they bury their grave.
One didn't need to be a fortune teller to guess it would be over priced as usual I tend to say, for a very small niche product, during a very bad financial crisis :thumbdown:
Something can be over priced if cost 5000 units and be selling well, at 25000 it's a different story.

No matter how good the system is, at this point it's irrelevant. Leica has never understood the difference between the digital and film market, they never graps the fast obsolescence of digital, the poor reliability of electronic and resale value, and that prices should follow in consequence.

Sad story but so predictable.

 

[sinwen]

Sad to say, but if Tim's evaluation is correct, Leica has a product which itself only fits a very small niche market....which they've made even smaller by the high price of entry.

Good luck with this one Leica....but I sure wish you had put a few of those research and development dollars into a digital R10 instead. I would have loved to put my R lenses to good use on one (someday).

Gary

The R serie owners have been waiting for the R10 for so long they finally quit and buy Canon to make use of their lenses.
If a R10 was to hit the market, it would have been long time ago and at comparable price with the competitors.
Leica didn't understand they can't sell the same electronic components the market provides to every manufacturer, with a 5 times mark up over the competition. The jackup coefficient for Leica brand is over since digital, only Leica don't know this.
So a R10, yes but NOW at 2000! Nonetheless, the buyers should factor in they would get only half of what is into Canonikon techno. This isn't a dream but what Leica should have done long ago to float in this market.

Lucky there are other brands giving us the possibilities to make use of our R lenses, Leica managed that, get their business stolen, lens making, because of total irrespect for their customers.:angry:

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I woke up at 4 am still in sticker shock. I honestly can't believe Leica missed the mark this bad. There was serious hope for me and a lot of other folks. But even after some careful thought and reasonable strategy in my head because i truly want to get down to one system which I am actually doing anyway. I just keep coming up short on any justification even figuring you threw a 35mm system into the whole factor and get a two for one. Still does not cut it. We are still back to two viable systems in the market that don't have some trouble spots attached to there back side. Hassy and Phase. I'm very happy with what I have but obviously a body improvement is needed in the Phase area which is no secret coming from me. Now I certainly hope Hassy and Phase take a page from this get there *** in gear and give us more what we need and want than stand still. I also wake up with a really bad feeling for Leica. This is not a small increase in pricing over other systems like the M8 was , sure maybe overpriced but still within grasp. This S2 is not even in the same galaxy and to have talking points out before the thing hits the streets only proves they know how much there screwed even going in. The big question is WHY and WHY bother. Two questions at thispoint I don't need to know the answer. They finally left me at the door stop. I have some very good friends at Leica and this morning I realize how much i would not want to be in their shoes explaining this one. There is no explanation that is reasonable and prudent to listen too.

Honestly like Marc said I was and am the perfect target for the S2, no question about it right squarely the proper beast for what I do. To leave me wanting and a lot of shooters like me wanting at the curb with our hands still in our pants pockets playing pocket pool is just a bad call.
Sorry for the graphic but this is just upsetting for the industry. Oh well it's anew day and guess i just have to get over it. Back to vacation. LOL