They are not jacking up prices, from 2005/2006 till now the dollar fell to the yen 20%.
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Official USA Pricing for Leica S2
- Thread starter dfarkas
- Start date
Considering DMR and M8 prices the S2 price is in straight line, no surprise to me
The following is what I posted on another forum in September 2008 :
Sinwen; 28.09.2008 said:
Quentin_Bargate
Well-known member
25mp where DSLRs now probably serve the needs of 98% of photographic requirements. However there is still a place for affordable medium format because it has a different look, can be used with view cameras, and has slightly better per pixel quality due to larger photosites.
The kew word though is affordable. I think Leica's mistake is that the S2 is a pro spec camera that amateurs can't afford and most pros dont need as there aremore versatile options available at half the price.
The way the medium format market is collapsing at the moment worries me, because there is a need for a format larger than 35mm but only for a small minority. I have nearly retired my Mamiya ZD since I purchased a Sony A900 and while the ZD is "only" 22mp, it s small example of part of a trend. I'd like a 60mp back but two thoughts haunt me: how much use would it get given as the A900 is so good at almost everything (with stitching an option if I really need higher resolution), and how long before 35mm size sensors hit 35mp or 40mp? On your point of "better is better" its true but there comes a point where a lot of self justification kicks in. No one who has dropped $$$ megabucks on a MFDB wants to believe a $3,000.00 dslr is 90% as good. And that price point is moving downwards: A Nikon D700s is rumoured soon and Sony will shortly launch their A850, an A900 lite with the same senor and most of the features - that's truly 25mp for the masses.
Its not a foregone conclusion than there will be any MFDB products left in a year or two. If there is, I doubt the S2 will be one of the survivors without a radical price rethink from Leica.
Quentin
PS By the way, I wanted to add that the new Hassy CFV back is, by comparison with the S2, an excellent idea because it taps in to the huge installed user base of old Hassy bodies and lenses. Instead of requiring a whole new investment from the ground up, exisiting owners of Hasselblad kit can acquire and use a leading edge new digital back with 39mp resolution. This really ought to help Hassy weather the economic crisis.
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jonoslack
Active member
Quite right Tom, but that argument can also be used with cars (you can't drive above 70mph so why on earth do you need a car which does 150).
There are all sorts of other boxes than just the 'need' box - It seems to me that the S2 has a very big WANT box - let's face it, it is pretty cool!
jonoslack
Active member
HI LJ
high res dslr
m8
compact.
If I were to get an S2, it would only be to replace my A900. But I'm not so naive as to think that, if money was not a concern, I would not already have my name down on a list - and I hope I'd make good use of it if I did have one.
If I feel that way that about it, then lots of other people will as well, and for some of them the money will not be of concern.
Of course you're quite right - although that problem would still exist even if the body was $10,000 - somebody has to take the leap of faith.
Oh - you don't need to be professional to have that problem! I've long since given up on the idea of having a 'one system does all'. I used to think it was possible, but it seems that at least three are necessary:
high res dslr
m8
compact.
If I were to get an S2, it would only be to replace my A900. But I'm not so naive as to think that, if money was not a concern, I would not already have my name down on a list - and I hope I'd make good use of it if I did have one.
If I feel that way that about it, then lots of other people will as well, and for some of them the money will not be of concern.
Lars
Active member
No disagreement there.
However if demand for S2 is driven by WANT rather than NEED then that defines the target market as a subset of the current Leica market (rather than the pro market) - individuals who want the best and have the means to pay for that. I can't see 1000 bodies a year there, more like a few hundred the first year and then tapering off. If that's the case then they'll have to drop production within two years.
"WANT & NEED...that defines the target market".... that the life work of Edward Bernays .... a lot to be said on that subject.No disagreement there.
However if demand for S2 is driven by WANT rather than NEED then that defines the target market as a subset of the current Leica market (rather than the pro market) ....
Stuart Richardson
Active member
I think this is the crux of it. But lets face it, money is not the largest concern for many of the people on this forum, otherwise we would all be shooting APS DSLR's (or less expensive). But this is coming to the level where it is a concern even for people for whom money is not a concern, if you will. Obviously there are gradations of this, but where you can find a number of wealthy amateur photographers who might spend 10,000 on a camera and several lenses (M8), there are a lot fewer who will spend 30,000 on a camera and one lens. So you would need: 1. To be serious enough about your photography to want a large, medium format camera like the S2. 2. Have 30,000-50,000 to spend on it. 3. Think that your 30,000-50,000 is better spent on the Leica than on a 50 to 60mp camera from Hassy, Phase, Leaf or Sinar.
As most other people here, I am skeptical there will be enough of these people. I hope there are though, because I would love to one day buy one from them at half the cost when they move on to the next thing.
The problem with that analogy is that the "other cars" available at the S2 price point can do 250 mph and have already proved they can.
The proof is in the pudding, not the "cool factor" ... cool factors fade with the very next innovation ... which with digital is pretty quick.
So far we haven't tasted the pudding ... except a few fashion shots in the hands of a pro using all kinds of mixed lighting that frankly don't look any better than stuff I've seen done with a 22 meg MFD. We'll just have to wait to see the real pudding tastes like.
So, IMO, Leica's best bet would be to get the S2 into rental places at a special subsidized rental fee and do a little "guerilla marketing" ... or give their key dealers some loaner units for hot prospects. If the pudding is THAT tasty, let the prospect taste it first.
This is pretty observant.
Until retiring from advertising a few months ago, I had the opportunity to work with literally hundreds of professional photographers both locally and nationally ... shooting everything from cars, to food, to fashion, to lifestyle, and situational editorial type work. Not many of them were all wrapped up in their gear and obsessing with minute differences. Form follows function was the reoccurring theme. Rarely over-kill, just enough to do the job.
Look at our fearless leaders of this forum ... Jack has a higher spec system than Guy who makes his living with photography. Guy has what he needs to do the work he knows he has to get done. There is a line where cost overwhelms profit and crossing the line jeopardizes the business.
The most amazing thing was that I almost always had better gear then the pros I hired did ... even the top national shooters. In fact, many of the people here on this forum that shoot for fun or are semi-pros have better stuff than most full time pros I've shot with. When more was needed, they rented it along with a tech person to run it ... at my expense of course
The pros that did own higher end gear, used it diversely ... quite a few needing the full T/S of a view camera one day for studio work, then the next for location stuff using the same back on the 645 camera ... or as was happening more and more using a high meg 35mm DSLR depending on final applications.
In a fat economy we tend to indulge our personal whims and wants ... in a down one, we get real as far as what is really needed, and what is just wasted in the end. Cost to end value is the decision scenario.
This is a very good point.
Other than a few lenses which I hope to add over time, I am pretty satisfied with my current gear.
Well,maybe I will add a "pocket camera", but other than that, I would need to have a compelling reason to spend that much on a new system.
Right now, I need to work hard so that my skill get up to what my gear is capable of.
Most of the areas of improvement that I am looking forward to are incremental improvements in processing software, not a new system.
-bob
Other than a few lenses which I hope to add over time, I am pretty satisfied with my current gear.
Well,maybe I will add a "pocket camera", but other than that, I would need to have a compelling reason to spend that much on a new system.
Right now, I need to work hard so that my skill get up to what my gear is capable of.
Most of the areas of improvement that I am looking forward to are incremental improvements in processing software, not a new system.
-bob
Ben Rubinstein
Active member
Sigh, just putting off the purchase of a think tank Airport International with a crazy p) price tag of all of $329. I've spent enough on gear this season (far from anything extravagent, flash bracket, custom cables and hopefully soon - radio poppers) and this winter is looking to be as dead as last winter was for all that I've had a good summer season. Money is better spent on advertising. When you're making business purchases it becomes a very different kettle of fish than when you're buying yourself treats...
p) price tag of all of $329. I've spent enough on gear this season (far from anything extravagent, flash bracket, custom cables and hopefully soon - radio poppers) and this winter is looking to be as dead as last winter was for all that I've had a good summer season. Money is better spent on advertising. When you're making business purchases it becomes a very different kettle of fish than when you're buying yourself treats...It's 10 pages since David Farkas opened this thread and let it run without further input.
David - Most of us here have probably followed your enthusiasm for the S2 project [many of us will have read your blog]. I'm sure you are still reading - fancy sharing your thoughts with us?
............. Chris
David - Most of us here have probably followed your enthusiasm for the S2 project [many of us will have read your blog]. I'm sure you are still reading - fancy sharing your thoughts with us?
............. Chris
TRSmith
Subscriber Member
I was trying to remember back to the days before internet forums on how amateurs or ambitious pros made equipment purchasing decisions. I'm certainly not the expert here but my guess is that much of the information available came trickling down through word of mouth, a few printed publications that contained reviews, and dealer input.
But now, it would seem to me that the kinds of discussions like this very thread are shaping buyer's decisions as much, if not more, than any other influence. Since this camera is still vaporware, it's impossible to make any kind of fair judgement as to whether it will actually fill a need, or for that matter, a want. Still, a company introducing a camera these days would be downright stupid to ignore the market feedback they can access themselves without any investment other than the time it takes to read the posts.
As someone on the sidelines of professional photography, I listen most to those who are on the front lines. I hear the majority of them saying (here and elsewhere) that existing MF equipment or high-end DSLRs are more than adequate for the demands of their respective markets for significantly less money. As a consequence of all the posts and opinions being shared in the various forums, I feel a sudden wave of calm seeping in. I feel a sense of relief that I will no longer put myself through the mental rigors and financial maneuverings necessary to purchase the S2. I can relax and enjoy my existing equipment while observing what transpires with the S2 and the fine company that brought it to life.
I'm willing to accept that the forum reaction to this new product might be inaccurate or in some other way misleading, but I have come to trust it and now make assessments of new equipment based on the various opinions offered by respected posters.
What's unusual to some degree is the sheer volume of the negative reaction to the price. It is nearly universal. Most of the time there are almost as many positives for new gear as negatives—positives that ultimately generate a groundswell of enthusiasm. I have watched (and resisted the impulse to make the purchase plunge) while people have pre-evaluted, bought, tested, and then sold, a bunch of different systems like the Nikon (300, 700, D3, etc.), Sony A900, G1, the DP(s), Ep1, etc. I have never seen a reaction to a camera price like this one, especially before significant examples or real-world results were available.
So thank you everyone for making my life easier and my wallet a bit safer from my own inner wantbeast.
But now, it would seem to me that the kinds of discussions like this very thread are shaping buyer's decisions as much, if not more, than any other influence. Since this camera is still vaporware, it's impossible to make any kind of fair judgement as to whether it will actually fill a need, or for that matter, a want. Still, a company introducing a camera these days would be downright stupid to ignore the market feedback they can access themselves without any investment other than the time it takes to read the posts.
As someone on the sidelines of professional photography, I listen most to those who are on the front lines. I hear the majority of them saying (here and elsewhere) that existing MF equipment or high-end DSLRs are more than adequate for the demands of their respective markets for significantly less money. As a consequence of all the posts and opinions being shared in the various forums, I feel a sudden wave of calm seeping in. I feel a sense of relief that I will no longer put myself through the mental rigors and financial maneuverings necessary to purchase the S2. I can relax and enjoy my existing equipment while observing what transpires with the S2 and the fine company that brought it to life.
I'm willing to accept that the forum reaction to this new product might be inaccurate or in some other way misleading, but I have come to trust it and now make assessments of new equipment based on the various opinions offered by respected posters.
What's unusual to some degree is the sheer volume of the negative reaction to the price. It is nearly universal. Most of the time there are almost as many positives for new gear as negatives—positives that ultimately generate a groundswell of enthusiasm. I have watched (and resisted the impulse to make the purchase plunge) while people have pre-evaluted, bought, tested, and then sold, a bunch of different systems like the Nikon (300, 700, D3, etc.), Sony A900, G1, the DP(s), Ep1, etc. I have never seen a reaction to a camera price like this one, especially before significant examples or real-world results were available.
So thank you everyone for making my life easier and my wallet a bit safer from my own inner wantbeast.
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Here is the secret for Leica and it is real simple . The cost of the 70mm put this at 34k which simply is out of reach. Go back to the kit pricing like Hassy and Phase and give us the lens . If it was 24k with lens than half these conversations would end. The issue is simply this we are being nickeled and dime to death here and I think at least for me said screw them. Going over 5k for lenses is also a major hit bring that down to Hassy and Mamiya levels say 4800 for there top lens. Really the answer is this in many folks feel Leica went about 20-30 percent over the top and perception is going to kill it. There is nothing special about this sensor but the same as a P40+ or a new Hassy 50 sensor. Lenses are not going to make that much of a difference as Leica is marketing and we all know this. Just look at the stuff us Mamiya shooters take with some marginal old lenses from 10 years ago. It's feeling we are getting ripped off and that is the crux of it all.
Just take the Mamiya 150mm D lens at 3100.00 there really is nothing out that can touch it or even improve it to make it even better. It's 3100 which is reasonable. Same with some of Hassy lenses they are reasonable and affordable and folks buy them. There is no secret here but keeping the outlay at prices people can afford. I don't think anyone expected it at giveaway prices unless Leica took a completely different stance and really tried to penetrate the MF world hard and really lower the body price below Hassy and Mamiya and tried to take over the market. Which personally I think they should have done but the worst issue is they completely ignored the forums and what we all wanted and thought would be good for them. Back to that arrogance comment, I just can't get away from that and I believe a lot of folks feel Leica just does not want to listen at all. At this point they are doing me a favor, it's off my radar and for folks like me that shoot like I do it may have been a perfect setup. BUT I will not be sand bagged into this and strain what little money over a reasonable and prudent purchase price. Bottom line Leica blew it here but they can still save the day but again they are too stubborn to accept they priced this wrong.
Just take the Mamiya 150mm D lens at 3100.00 there really is nothing out that can touch it or even improve it to make it even better. It's 3100 which is reasonable. Same with some of Hassy lenses they are reasonable and affordable and folks buy them. There is no secret here but keeping the outlay at prices people can afford. I don't think anyone expected it at giveaway prices unless Leica took a completely different stance and really tried to penetrate the MF world hard and really lower the body price below Hassy and Mamiya and tried to take over the market. Which personally I think they should have done but the worst issue is they completely ignored the forums and what we all wanted and thought would be good for them. Back to that arrogance comment, I just can't get away from that and I believe a lot of folks feel Leica just does not want to listen at all. At this point they are doing me a favor, it's off my radar and for folks like me that shoot like I do it may have been a perfect setup. BUT I will not be sand bagged into this and strain what little money over a reasonable and prudent purchase price. Bottom line Leica blew it here but they can still save the day but again they are too stubborn to accept they priced this wrong.
Feeling? Just a feeling? At these prices, we ARE getting ripped off (if we buy into their latest scheme).
LJ
P.S. If Leica did include the 70mm lens as part of a kit, the rest of the lens line-up would still look prohibitively expensive. That is why I have said before, if they want to get this system into the market, they need to offer it at a "special introductory offer" level, or bundle all the glass or several pieces of glass together and keep all of that at price point south of $30k. That is NOT dreaming. That is probably the only thing that would shake enough people loose to consider this. On the other hand, maybe there are that magical 1000 buyers over the next year that will help Leica prolong the agony of folding up the tent.
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Dale Allyn
New member
Of course much of these increases are due to Canon (et al) raising prices to finally compensate for the pathetically anemic U.S. dollar. As one who works in import/export I can attest to the problems caused by our weak currency situation.
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Guy,
Even Leica is saying "as good as" for comparisons with the 39-50MP backs, so "better" is not even in their evaluation.
LJ
P.S. I know we all should be a bit more "nice" as you put it, and I apologize for some of my expressed outrage, but seriously, this pricing and marketing is insulting to sensibilities.:wtf: