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Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Camera manufacturers do that all the time. Canon did it when they changed from FD to EF mount, Hasselblad disconnected a lot of users with the H3D, Olympus changed mount when they went digital, and Nikon has so many incompatibilities that I can't even count them.

Leica, on the other hand, still produces a camera system where you can use most of the lenses that they made in pre-historic times (before I was born anyway), while all others discontinued their rangefinder cameras.

Any camera system can be discontinued overnight and any camera manufacturer can go bankrupt tomorrow.
One type of lens period for the S2 and that is a S mount . There is nothing else for it. No used or existing lenses that can even be adapted to it. It's new or nothing and you are depending on Leica stock and availability as well but your also stuck with whatever price Leica decides to set and that price will go up just like any other M lens that has gone up. Hassy/Phase/Nikon/Canon/Sony/oly we all have many options even cross brands. Frankly if you want to talk about closed systems this is the absolute worst offender of it than anyone. If you want to look at it that way , there simply are NO options outside Leica brand and it has to be S as well. This is something that people need to consider is you are pinned into a alley with this system. There are simply no options on lenses and accessories outside the Leica brand be that a good or bad thing it is what it is.

With that how many dealers are out there selling Leica gear and availability getting a lens. Bottom line for the hobbyist this stuff may not be such a big deal since you have time to build your system and are not under the gun to produce but someone in the working arena just getting a new lens maybe tough to get on time for themselves . For example when the 180mm hits the streets how much stock is hitting the streets if it is only 20 lenses per week than it could be a issue for someone trying to get one fast. Sure we will here all the dealers say we can get you anything you want. Hmmm I owned both the DMR and M8 systems and a getting a new lens right away is not always the easiest thing to do. It's not like you can use something in the meantime either. Stuff to think about and as a Pro this stuff is important as a hobbyist like I said not the real need but still can be frustrating. New system will take time to get going , please don't let anyone tell you any different. Don't get me wrong I would not mind having one myself but I look at this from many different angles than the hobbyist. I will have to wait until this system is out for some time before it makes any sense than I still have to deal with price which make no mistake I still don't like it. I know exactly in my mind what this thing will do just by testing all kinds of sensors lately and this is being over estimated by a lot of folks. It will be very very good but not on a level it is compared to and priced at. This is my perception of it and it's not a bad thing but I am a realist and I know what these things can do just by shooting them for a long time. It's not a Hassy 50 or P65 and it's lucky to make it to the P40+, P45 + and the Hassy 39 offerings in image quality regardless of lenses involved. But it does have a feature set that many folks would love to have and mainly the only reason I am looking at it. But like I said Phase/Hassy could also just throw out a better body and game over for many folks as well.

Just really have to think about this stuff without bias. Anyway vacation is over and driving home , check in tonight.
 

thomas

New member
Quote:
Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
Two examples from Phase is the ambient temperature and the black-cal capture.
not sure if I understand it right... Phase backs record the ambient temperature (so the temperature of the sensor in the moment of capture) and the processing in C1 refers to these data?
So the warmer the chip the more some NR (or so) is applied?
Doug as you are online... this was probably lost in the "storm". Could you adress this please? Thank you!
 

Terry

New member
One type of lens period for the S2 and that is a S mount . There is nothing else for it. No used or existing lenses that can even be adapted to it. It's new or nothing and you are depending on Leica stock and availability as well but your also stuck with whatever price Leica decides to set and that price will go up just like any other M lens that has gone up. Hassy/Phase/Nikon/Canon/Sony/oly we all have many options even cross brands. Frankly if you want to talk about closed systems this is the absolute worst offender of it than anyone. If you want to look at it that way , there simply are NO options outside Leica brand and it has to be S as well. This is something that people need to consider is you are pinned into a alley with this system. There are simply no options on lenses and accessories outside the Leica brand be that a good or bad thing it is what it is.
Why can't other lenses be adapted?
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
They made there own new mount and without maybe and I mean maybe some third party doing it Leica made no options or can't make a adapter for there old existing R lenses due to image circle. Obviously there maybe a chance for a third party vendor to do something like bolt a Mamiya or hassy lens on it but I don't think it will happen in the near future and than it could run into all kinds of issues as well to be compatible. Big wait and see
 

Terry

New member
They made there own new mount and without maybe and I mean maybe some third party doing it Leica made no options or can't make a adapter for there old existing R lenses due to image circle. Obviously there maybe a chance for a third party vendor to do something like bolt a Mamiya or hassy lens on it but I don't think it will happen in the near future and than it could run into all kinds of issues as well to be compatible. Big wait and see
Well it didn't take long to get every adapter imaginable for micro 4/3 which was also a new mount. I presume with the S2 the only difference is that you would need to adapt MF lenses to get a large enough image circle.
 

dfarkas

Workshop Member
The prices quoted for those lenses are a bit of a shocker....especially as I understand that they are "leicarised" Bronica designs. Not that there is anything wrong with leicarising per se as after all some of the early Leica reflex lenses were Minolta designs and even manufactured by Minolta in some instances. They were and still are superb lenses.

The Leica S lenses are purebred Leica designs. Bronica never used ASPH designs, floating lens elements, etc.


David
 

jonoslack

Active member
They made there own new mount and without maybe and I mean maybe some third party doing it Leica made no options or can't make a adapter for there old existing R lenses due to image circle. Obviously there maybe a chance for a third party vendor to do something like bolt a Mamiya or hassy lens on it but I don't think it will happen in the near future and than it could run into all kinds of issues as well to be compatible. Big wait and see
I'm with Terry on this one - why on earth won't it happen in the near future - there is a multitude of companies who could do this pretty fast - and if there is a shortage of lenses then there will be a demand.
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
LOL, see this video (starting at 1:57) for why Ptomsu wants a system with a tech body. Just look as his big goofy Austrian smile.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2C8dFEA6QvA&feature=channel_page

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up
Doug, all,

exactly! Once I had tried the flexibility and seen the benefits and advantages of such an open system the decision is pretty clear :angel:

Let me put things from my side into the right perspective:

1) for serious landscape work the best thing is a tech camera like the Cambo WRS and some Schneider or Rodenstock lenses. Well one needs a MFDB with such a camera, so this can be Phase or Hassi. Phase is more my favorite because I am addicted to C1Pro.

2) for the rest of shooting such a small camera like a S2 might be a great thing, as long as one can or is willing to afford both systems. If I just want to have a fast and light and smaller system with a larger sensor and more MP then the S2 is a great new product. Maybe if one goes on expeditions and trusts the Leica quality from the beginning - which I do not after all the worries I had with the DMR and the M8.

3) I think I will be satisfied with JUST the Phase and Tech camera, a decent MFDB and a bunch of great lenses for both :cool:

PS: BTW I find the post processing in C1Pro very cool and I would miss this if Leica builds their lenses as good, that you do not have to do these improvements in post processing. For me this is the wrong marketing decision :D
 

woodyspedden

New member
One type of lens period for the S2 and that is a S mount . There is nothing else for it. No used or existing lenses that can even be adapted to it. It's new or nothing and you are depending on Leica stock and availability as well but your also stuck with whatever price Leica decides to set and that price will go up just like any other M lens that has gone up. Hassy/Phase/Nikon/Canon/Sony/oly we all have many options even cross brands. Frankly if you want to talk about closed systems this is the absolute worst offender of it than anyone. If you want to look at it that way , there simply are NO options outside Leica brand and it has to be S as well. This is something that people need to consider is you are pinned into a alley with this system. There are simply no options on lenses and accessories outside the Leica brand be that a good or bad thing it is what it is.

With that how many dealers are out there selling Leica gear and availability getting a lens. Bottom line for the hobbyist this stuff may not be such a big deal since you have time to build your system and are not under the gun to produce but someone in the working arena just getting a new lens maybe tough to get on time for themselves . For example when the 180mm hits the streets how much stock is hitting the streets if it is only 20 lenses per week than it could be a issue for someone trying to get one fast. Sure we will here all the dealers say we can get you anything you want. Hmmm I owned both the DMR and M8 systems and a getting a new lens right away is not always the easiest thing to do. It's not like you can use something in the meantime either. Stuff to think about and as a Pro this stuff is important as a hobbyist like I said not the real need but still can be frustrating. New system will take time to get going , please don't let anyone tell you any different. Don't get me wrong I would not mind having one myself but I look at this from many different angles than the hobbyist. I will have to wait until this system is out for some time before it makes any sense than I still have to deal with price which make no mistake I still don't like it. I know exactly in my mind what this thing will do just by testing all kinds of sensors lately and this is being over estimated by a lot of folks. It will be very very good but not on a level it is compared to and priced at. This is my perception of it and it's not a bad thing but I am a realist and I know what these things can do just by shooting them for a long time. It's not a Hassy 50 or P65 and it's lucky to make it to the P40+, P45 + and the Hassy 39 offerings in image quality regardless of lenses involved. But it does have a feature set that many folks would love to have and mainly the only reason I am looking at it. But like I said Phase/Hassy could also just throw out a better body and game over for many folks as well.

Just really have to think about this stuff without bias. Anyway vacation is over and driving home , check in tonight.
Guy

The rumors I hear say that the Hassy V lenses will be made adaptable to the S2 body so that brings a lot of cost savings to those of us who still own some. Plus the V lenses, used, are very reasonable.

Just thought I'd add this for the sake of completeness

Woody
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
not sure if I understand it right... Phase backs record the ambient temperature (so the temperature of the sensor in the moment of capture) and the processing in C1 refers to these data?
So the warmer the chip the more some NR (or so) is applied?
The temperature has little impact on processing for normal exposures. For long exposures the temperature and length of exposure are very critical.

http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/phase-one-tech-specs/

The algorithms/firmware/hardware that allow for long exposures takes the ambient temperature inside the back into account along with the length of the exposure and the ISO.

The result is long exposures on the Kodak sensors which are an order of magnitude better than anyone else using those sensors. If it's really cold outside (around 10F or -13C) you can do an all night exposure.

It's all part of what you get when you are able to completely control the hardware, firmware, and software.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up
 

thomas

New member
The temperature has little impact on processing for normal exposures. For long exposures the temperature and length of exposure are very critical.

http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/phase-one-tech-specs/

The algorithms/firmware/hardware that allow for long exposures takes the ambient temperature inside the back into account along with the length of the exposure and the ISO.

The result is long exposures on the Kodak sensors which are an order of magnitude better than anyone else using those sensors. If it's really cold outside (around 10F or -13C) you can do an all night exposure.

It's all part of what you get when you are able to completely control the hardware, firmware, and software.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up
Thanks a lot, Doug!
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Well it didn't take long to get every adapter imaginable for micro 4/3 which was also a new mount. I presume with the S2 the only difference is that you would need to adapt MF lenses to get a large enough image circle.
Well for one, there were about a million micro 4/3rds users overnight. There will maybe 100 or 200 S2 users in the first month? If I am making custom mounts, am I going to make a bunch for various 3rd party glass for 100 or even 1000 potential users? Doubtful..

But we can ask John Milich if he thinks it will be worth it, and at what price... John?
 

sinwen

Member
I'm with Terry on this one - why on earth won't it happen in the near future - there is a multitude of companies who could do this pretty fast - and if there is a shortage of lenses then there will be a demand.
How many adaptors have been on the market for CanonikonMino... lenses to a Leica R ? None of I know of !
Why ? Because the primary interest in Leica are the lenses, not the bodies (exept the M). So an adaptor for Hassy lenses to Leica S body for example has no real interest.
The buyers of the S system, if any, want before the S lenses before anything else .
 

Stuart Richardson

Active member
Sorry Sinwen, but that's actually a misconception. You are partly right in that people tend to prefer Leica lenses, but the reason you don't see any other SLR lenses being used on Leica R is because Leica R has the longest flange to focal distance of common 35mm SLR's. It is possible to put a Leica R lens on almost any other mount with an adapter, but to put any other maker on Leica R would require a glass element in order to achieve infinity focus. But I do expect people to put other lenses on the S2, precisely because it is so expensive. If you use a certain lens only occasionally, would you want to pay 6000 dollars for it when you could just buy an adapter and use a mamiya, contax or Hasselblad lens? It will depend on the flange to focal distance, but I imagine the S2 is much narrower than the other medium format camera, so I doubt it will be a problem.
 

jlm

Workshop Member
well, i have a few hasselblad lenses, i'd just have to pony up for the S2 body (gasp!)...if the flange to sensor plane distances work out and the diameters work, it could be do-able
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Guy

The rumors I hear say that the Hassy V lenses will be made adaptable to the S2 body so that brings a lot of cost savings to those of us who still own some. Plus the V lenses, used, are very reasonable.

Just thought I'd add this for the sake of completeness

Woody
Thanks Woody just got home and that is a nice option. I shot the V glass for many years and at least I can say the 120 macro is very very nice and the 50mm is pretty dang good as well. Now I see no reason some 3rd party adapter company will come along and make some type of adapter for it. Just a matter of time, wish it was me actually. Could make a fortune on it. But they will need to look at other MF lenses because of the image circle for sure. Now what will work technically and what will not remains to be seen for sure. Some lenses the barrel maybe to small and lens to sensor depth could be way off as well. Need some guinea pigs on this one and if someone does this like Jack mentioned it will be limited numbers and you can bet it will not be 89 dollars on e-bay either. To even consider such a small number it maybe several hundred dollars or more. The 4/3rd market is very very large and more volume type of business but still 170 is the going rate on those I believe. Not exactly cheap

Actually I know Phase sells a V adapter for the Phase bodies as well, so we have options in the Phase camp. As far as the H I can't keep up with the Hassy stuff myself. That whole system confuses me to some degree.
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
Jorgen,

You missed my point, which was that two bodies a a set of lenses will cost $100,000.

Steve
Steve,
Two bodies plus 35mm f/2.5, 70mm f/2,5, 120mm f/2.5 macro and 180mm f/3.5 adds up to $68,770. Add a vertical grip, and it's $70,065.

Still a lot of money, but nowhere near 100,000. You can buy a car for the difference :)
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Frightening. I would not last 30 seconds after telling my wife on that purchase. I never ever ever came close to those numbers on anything photographic. Maybe over a 3 or 4 year period but in one purchase never.
 
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