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Thread: What will the S2 actually DO?

  1. #51
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    Re: What will the S2 actually DO?

    Focus shift correction is truly needed. Thing is that until you have more than one focus point, heck a decent spread of focus points unlike any DSLR on the market today, it's all academic the moment you have to recompose. When you have the resolution that requires focus shift correction you are going to seriously notice recompose focus error, especially with lenses touted for their wide apertures...
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    Re: What will the S2 actually DO?

    What about the law of dminishing returns? If S2 lenses are marginally better corrected than other good MF lenses, but the cost of that better corection is very high, you might get better value and just as good performance, so far as is visible on screen or in print, with software correction. I'm not talking about trying to make a rubbish lens good in software, but minor corrections that can be handled at or after capture, if it is more cost effective to do so. and lets not forget an S2 is in any event "limited" by its 39mp sensor. Hassy and Phase owners already have 60mp options that counterbalance alleged lens limitations. I speculate it will be a very long time indeed before Leica launch an S3 with a similar pixel count (by which time 35mm dslrs might be snipping at their heels).

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    Re: What will the S2 actually DO?

    I bet the next generation high end DSLRs will be pretty close in terms of MP to the S2.

    I also bet we will not see a S3 with maybe 50 or 60MP within the next 5 years - typical Leica product cycles. So whoever decides for the S System, will have to live with 37MP for the next years and only can hope for higher resolution.

    By when the S3 may appear on the market, Phase and Hassi will already roll out their 100MP versions of backs

    Just to make one thing clear upfront - I am not saying that everybody will need these high resolutions, but the S System will naturally limit itself - just because it is Leica

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    Re: What will the S2 actually DO?

    Highly-corrected lenses are already available today, the Schneider/Rodenstock-digital-lenses take the cover-glass into account and offer a similar MTF-performance. Combine a decent >39MP-back with them, make large prints and see for yourself. No software-correction in the world makes this advantage disappear.
    Or just look for some Alpa-shots (forget the moire and JPG-artifacts):
    http://www.alpa.ch/contactsheets/CS2...000157_001.jpg
    The digaron-w 70mm has a similar performance as the summarit.
    It's not about 37,5 or 40 or 50MP, all of these sensors are limited by the lenses and shooting technique pretty quickly.

    Software-correction has to be an option (and it will be for the S2, too) but not an excuse for cost-cutting. In the past, only very little improvements were achieved in the optical designs of the two systems left. Just recently the only aspherical design was introduced with the first usable zoom (although f5,6)! They don't want to pay for new radical designs and more advanced manufacturing/assembly-technologies.

    Leica brings those more advanced technolgies to the high-end-slr-market. Never wondered why the 70mm-Summarit is the first standard-MF-lens (the most important focal length!) with radical design changes after over 30 years? (never wondered why basically all 2,8/80 are similar to the old Zeiss Planar?)
    The lenses cost 30-80% more but still, the whole Leica-set costs less than a digital-back/body! While the lenses are long-time investments and improve the final results over the next 10-20 years the backs/bodies are replaced within every 2-4 years. So more advanced lens-techology with higher costs should be the last thing demanding photographers should worry about.

    But wait, maybe the new lenses aren't that great at all! Maybe despite all the fancy technology, the MTFs and dozens of groundbreaking designs over the last two decades these lenses are just mediocre and don't reach the quality of Schneider/Rodenstock-lenses...

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    Re: What will the S2 actually DO?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    Focus shift correction is truly needed. Thing is that until you have more than one focus point, heck a decent spread of focus points unlike any DSLR on the market today, it's all academic the moment you have to recompose. When you have the resolution that requires focus shift correction you are going to seriously notice recompose focus error, especially with lenses touted for their wide apertures...
    I agree 100% and that is why what I would really like, and don't kill me guys, is either a wide spread of selectable AF points on the S2, or some form of face (actually nearside eye) detection.

    Heresy.

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    Re: What will the S2 actually DO?

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    So whoever decides for the S System, will have to live with 37MP for the next years and only can hope for higher resolution
    I think people that care seriously about resolution (i.e. the highest resolution possible) are not really interessted in the S2.
    On the other hand 37MP is lots of resolution and it will be enough for a lifetime... at least for the target group the S2 is aimed at (according to Leica).

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    Re: What will the S2 actually DO?

    Quote Originally Posted by georgl View Post
    But wait, maybe the new lenses aren't that great at all! Maybe despite all the fancy technology, the MTFs and dozens of groundbreaking designs over the last two decades these lenses are just mediocre and don't reach the quality of Schneider/Rodenstock-lenses...
    My issue is this: I shoot mainly with a 35XL and a Phamiya 80D when using my P45+ and neither of those lenses has any character. They are both very very accurate but they are accountants and not artists. A good Leica lens like the 50 Lux is both, which is why it is still the single best lens I've ever used.

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    Re: What will the S2 actually DO?

    Tim,
    Actually, the wide spread of selectable AF points for the S2 is a much needed consideration. The face detection is not something I would care about nor use, but if it came along for the ride with the selectable AF points, no problem ;-)

    LJ

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    Re: What will the S2 actually DO?

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    My issue is this: I shoot mainly with a 35XL and a Phamiya 80D when using my P45+ and neither of those lenses has any character. They are both very very accurate but they are accountants and not artists. A good Leica lens like the 50 Lux is both, which is why it is still the single best lens I've ever used.
    Tim the S lenses will NOT have any 80 lux character to them . There just like the M summarits. Same basic design principle's and no old lens designs to reach back for. This is one issue with the S it's all new for resolution and not so much a character lens. I'm sure they will have nice bokeh but no Mandler look

    All the digitars are the same built for resolution and not that warm fuzzy Mandler look that was made back in the 60's. There simple is nothing to go back too here. Now some old Hassy and Mamiya lens you can find lenses loaded with aberrations which is what that look is .

    Your looking for a Lux which is not the case here
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    Re: What will the S2 actually DO?

    Now since I am on the subject we have to remember we are not buying Leica M lenses that go back in time quite a few years here. There are no Noctiluxes or Luxes in the S lens line or a old Elmar sitting around for fifty years and finds a new home on a M8. You want those kinds of looks than you will have to hold onto your M8. The one hope a S buyer may have is the adapter for maybe a Hassy V lens and bolting on a 110mm on it or some old dog that was made awhile back. Basically we need to realize that the new S lenses will most likely in the whole line have the same look to them. Not saying there bad or anything like that but it will be a lot like the Hassy and Phase D lenses as well. The Phase and Hassy folks have some options though with bolting on older Hassy lenses and Mamiya lenses to them. There are a lot of options on this with Hassy and Phase and right now none on the S2 unless we see a 3rd party adapter for the S.
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    Re: What will the S2 actually DO?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Tim the S lenses will NOT have any 80 lux character to them . There just like the M summarits. Same basic design principle's and no old lens designs to reach back for. This is one issue with the S it's all new for resolution and not so much a character lens. I'm sure they will have nice bokeh but no Mandler look

    All the digitars are the same built for resolution and not that warm fuzzy Mandler look that was made back in the 60's. There simple is nothing to go back too here. Now some old Hassy and Mamiya lens you can find lenses loaded with aberrations which is what that look is .

    Your looking for a Lux which is not the case here
    Guy,

    The new Summarit-S lenses have nothing in common with the Summarit-M lenses except for the name. As you know, the naming in Leica only corresponds to the maximum aperture, not the optical formula like in Zeiss.

    The 70mm Summarit-S is based on the design of the 50mm Summilux ASPH, which is the lens that Tim was referring to. I agree with him, the 50 Lux ASPH is both staggeringly sharp and precise, while at the same time beautiful and nuanced.

    The 120mm APO Macro is based on the design of the 100mm APO Macro-R, which besides being a phenomenal performer (peak performance from wide-open at f/2.8 all the way to f/8), has gorgeous color and tone, with smooth bokeh.

    The 180mm APO Elmar-S is based on the famed 180mm APO-Elmarit-R. Again, technically "perfect", but with character.

    The 35mm Summarit-S is an unknown quantity and a brand new design, but could be one of the best wide angle MF lenses made in that FL. We'll have to see.

    No, the S-lenses will not look like Mandler designs. That is for sure. I personally prefer the look of lenses like the 35 Cron ASPH, 50 Lux ASPH, 75 APO, 100 APO Macro, 90 APO, etc. I was never the biggest fan of lenses like the 80 Lux or the Noctilux. Everyone is entitled to their own tastes, of course. Maybe I'm just a Karbe fan.

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    Re: What will the S2 actually DO?

    Mandler fan. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: What will the S2 actually DO?

    BTW where is this stuff written so people can peruse it. Not your blog but from Leica
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: What will the S2 actually DO?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    BTW where is this stuff written so people can peruse it. Not your blog but from Leica
    Thank you, Guy.....I too would like to see the direct info from the manufacturer on this stuff.

    LJ

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    Re: What will the S2 actually DO?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Mandler fan. LOL
    C'mon Guy.... you can't deny the genius of Peter Karbe.

    50 Lux ASPH, 75 APO Cron, 18 Elmar, 24 Elmar, 21 Lux, 24 Lux, 50 Noct 0.95, S-lenses...

    ...the extensive use of floating elements for close-focus and infinity performance, exotic glass formulations, brand new optical designs, rethinking the normal lens, cutting-edge ASPH grinding and coating technologies.....

    And, he's still a young guy. Mandler may have been prolific, put Karbe is pushing the bounds of what is possible in optics.

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    Re: What will the S2 actually DO?

    Take photos, roast most meats, do the laundry, mow the lawn, take out the garbage. What great value.

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    Re: What will the S2 actually DO?

    No question great lens designer but going 6 k for lenses is just out of the question David, sorry not at this time could I even conceive of putting out this kind or money and for what perceived increase in IQ to what I have today. I'm already smoking my clients with amazing images . What gain would I get, not much and for a 35k switch in systems I just can't justify. Need to move the 35mm folks up but getting a MF shooter to do a lateral is tough work and a really hard sell. Unless there just dying for a Leica. Love the idea but the price versus increase in usage is just not there for me.
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    Re: What will the S2 actually DO?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    No question great lens designer but going 6 k for lenses is just out of the question David, sorry not at this time could I even conceive of putting out this kind or money and for what perceived increase in IQ to what I have today. I'm already smoking my clients with amazing images . What gain would I get, not much and for a 35k switch in systems I just can't justify. Need to move the 35mm folks up but getting a MF shooter to do a lateral is tough work and a really hard sell. Unless there just dying for a Leica. Love the idea but the price versus increase in usage is just not there for me.
    That's cool.

    I thought we were having a discussion about capabilities of the S-System and the tech in the lenses, not a price/value discussion.

    If you (and your clients) are happy with what you have today in terms of final image quality, workflow, ergonomics, handling, speed, optics, etc.... don't change. No one is forcing you, certainly not me.

    Some of my customers have made upwards moves from D3x and some have made lateral moves from H3DII-31/39/50s. This was their choice. They were not forced or coerced. For them, the overall value was worth it. For others, it may not be. Simple as that.

    We are days away from official tech specs and a few weeks from performance proofs (sample images). The S2 will soon be in people's hands, shooting actual pictures. I can explain all that I know from a technical and handling point of view, as well as what I've leanred from the S2 product managers directly, but ultimately, the proof is in the pictures and the shooting experience.

    As I've said many times before, let's see what happens when photographers start really shooting with the S2.

    David


    PS - I just checked my current pricebook for Mamiya (still a dealer). The 28mm f/4.5D lens is $5699, pretty close to $6K....
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    Re: What will the S2 actually DO?

    For any MF shooter today it will always come down to price/value and increase in IQ over what you have today. The S2 has some features that are really nice but no proof yet of any IQ advancement of what we have today , so in essence for the MF shooter it is a expensive lateral without seeing proof today, tomorrow maybe different. It's simple is a stretch for MF shooters today.

    If you pay 5699 than your nuts.LOL More like 4800 is the going rate and there most expensive lens.

    David you have to understand I am really trying to give the most balanced view there is and not attack Leica in any way. I actually like this system and want it to sell. But at the same token I am having a hard time getting past the price today with really no proof of the system except the Red dot. Until we see the IQ and the sales/service/repair and functionality in action than our views may change. This will take some time and honestly i am a hard sell.

    Also I would like to see less silence and more verbal and written information directly from Leica. There S website has no information to sink our teeth in but more a marketing tool. Being hard core techies that most us all are that is not going to cut it. We want examples, data and white papers to review and discuss but more importantly help in our evaluation of the system. Oh and hell and want a lower price and a couple hot models to go with it. LOL

    I think the bottom line is the specs and samples should been offered with the price instead we are looking pricing without enough real data to back it up. Basically it feels more like hearsay and not a dig on you with your excellent blog but shouldn't this data really be coming from Leica itself and not only through preferred dealers. I mean that in the most respectful way
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    Re: What will the S2 actually DO?

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    Tim,
    Actually, the wide spread of selectable AF points for the S2 is a much needed consideration. The face detection is not something I would care about nor use, but if it came along for the ride with the selectable AF points, no problem ;-)

    LJ
    You know, I never ever ever ever EVER would have thought of using face detection - I've had it on some P&S cams and never used it. Then I read that on my Pen is doesn't just do focus but also detects faces for exposure, which is good against the light - so I tried it and Lo! it is good. Then i got to thinking, with the Phamiya and a 150mm lens, even at F16, focus and recompose error can take you out of best DOF so easily. In the studio what I would like is a magic roving AF point that can either be pointed at and then will follow, or can find of its own accord, an eye. It CAN be done so why don't we get it? Is it just because it sounds amateur?

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    Re: What will the S2 actually DO?

    Actually I agree with Guy that Leica is far too quiet about the S System.

    To launch such a system, which should become the new star in high end digital, it needs definitely much much more than what is available from Leica today. I wonder why they did not already start some months ago.

    This silence is rather contra productive! It lets a number of guessing occur and everybody who might be interested is loosing interest more and more - at least for me this is what happens.

    And given the fact that after launch real availability is another year or so out, the whole S system - even if technically super perfect - is just vaporware for the next 12 months to come.

    Sorry

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    Re: What will the S2 actually DO?

    Tim,

    All due respect, with the Mamiya 150/2.8D lens we'll need EYEBALL recognition to get crisp portraits on the fly

    Seriously, multiple AF focus points are insignificant consideration for me. I have learned over the years to use the center spot to focus, quickly recompose and take the picture. Using this technique I get a good solid 80% keeper rate on people. The last thing I want to be doing is fiddling with a dial to get the AF to some point I think may be the proper focus area... I've had it on my Canons for years, tried it a few times and in general hate it. What I do like is Canon's late generation 45-point AF auto selection -- it does a great job of targeting motion or relevant subject matter to focus on, though even then it grabs the wrong subject about 25% of the time...
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    Re: What will the S2 actually DO?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    For any MF shooter today it will always come down to price/value and increase in IQ over what you have today. The S2 has some features that are really nice but no proof yet of any IQ advancement of what we have today , so in essence for the MF shooter it is a expensive lateral without seeing proof today, tomorrow maybe different. It's simple is a stretch for MF shooters today.

    If you pay 5699 than your nuts.LOL More like 4800 is the going rate and there most expensive lens.

    David you have to understand I am really trying to give the most balanced view there is and not attack Leica in any way. I actually like this system and want it to sell. But at the same token I am having a hard time getting past the price today with really no proof of the system except the Red dot. Until we see the IQ and the sales/service/repair and functionality in action than our views may change. This will take some time and honestly i am a hard sell.

    Also I would like to see less silence and more verbal and written information directly from Leica. There S website has no information to sink our teeth in but more a marketing tool. Being hard core techies that most us all are that is not going to cut it. We want examples, data and white papers to review and discuss but more importantly help in our evaluation of the system. Oh and hell and want a lower price and a couple hot models to go with it. LOL

    I think the bottom line is the specs and samples should been offered with the price instead we are looking pricing without enough real data to back it up. Basically it feels more like hearsay and not a dig on you with your excellent blog but shouldn't this data really be coming from Leica itself and not only through preferred dealers. I mean that in the most respectful way

    Yes, I think that direct-from-Leica communication has been lacking. I would have been much happier if price, specs, and images came out on the same day. Totally agree with you on that one.

    As far as the 28mm f/4.5D lens goes... the dealer net on it is $5300. In other words, that is a whopping 7% profit margin at full MAP pricing. You must have either gotten a great deal or bought yours a couple of years ago when the price was lower.

    David
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    Re: What will the S2 actually DO?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Tim,

    All due respect, with the Mamiya 150/2.8D lens we'll need EYEBALL recognition to get crisp portraits on the fly

    Seriously, multiple AF focus points are insignificant consideration for me. I have learned over the years to use the center spot to focus, quickly recompose and take the picture. Using this technique I get a good solid 80% keeper rate on people. The last thing I want to be doing is fiddling with a dial to get the AF to some point I think may be the proper focus area... I've had it on my Canons for years, tried it a few times and in general hate it. What I do like is Canon's late generation 45-point AF auto selection -- it does a great job of targeting motion or relevant subject matter to focus on, though even then it grabs the wrong subject about 25% of the time...

    Yup I kind of agree - it's just wishful thinking I suppose, I certainly use focus and recompose on my Canon gear and on any AF lenses on the Phamiya - but I hear that the Nikon Pro gear has KILLER AF and that does imply it could be done.

    I think I get slightly less that 80% but in that ballpark - but I do find that Sod's Law decrees that the expression I like is often in one of the 20%.

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    Re: What will the S2 actually DO?

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    but I do find that Sod's Law decrees that the expression I like is often in one of the 20%.
    An invariable inevitability for all of us!
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  26. #76
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    Re: What will the S2 actually DO?

    Talk english please
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: What will the S2 actually DO?

    Sod is English -- their contemporary of Murphy
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    Re: What will the S2 actually DO?

    Well I did not learn about Sod in Jersey growing up. That was something we put on the dirt after we put the body in the ground.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: What will the S2 actually DO?

    "The 120mm APO Macro is based on the design of the 100mm APO Macro-R,"

    What do you mean with "based on"? There are a few designs that are directly related (like Summilux 21/24) and sharing optical parts. But the S-lenses are entirely new designs, of course they share design ideas based on their basic requirements and the current "mindset" (of the company, designer...). So they start on a blank page and don't take any calculations or actual productions elements of exisiting designs like the Apo100, or do they!?

    Hopefully Leica managed to get some decent pictures taken with the S2 right from the beginning and will present them on their site!

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    Re: What will the S2 actually DO?

    Quote Originally Posted by georgl View Post
    "The 120mm APO Macro is based on the design of the 100mm APO Macro-R,"

    What do you mean with "based on"? There are a few designs that are directly related (like Summilux 21/24) and sharing optical parts. But the S-lenses are entirely new designs, of course they share design ideas based on their basic requirements and the current "mindset" (of the company, designer...). So they start on a blank page and don't take any calculations or actual productions elements of exisiting designs like the Apo100, or do they!?

    Hopefully Leica managed to get some decent pictures taken with the S2 right from the beginning and will present them on their site!
    My understanding is that the design concept is similiar with regards to element shapes, positioning, and quantitiy. Obviously, these lenses are quite different as well. The 120 Macro is half a stop faster, covers a larger image circle, incorporates a floating element, is weather sealed, has AF, and is an internal focusing design. And, it's a 120 not a 100. So, perhaps the more accurate way to say this is that the 120 APO Macro designer was influenced by the characteristics of the 100 APO R lens, when formulating the new design.

    When I asked Peter Karbe if the performce of the new 120 will be equal to that of the already excellent 100, he replied, "the designs are very similiar, but the 120 is better." Later in our discussion, he explained to me that he spends a good amount of time studying past Leica lens designs for new ideas or approaches. He tries to envision how his predecessors like Mandler or Berek would solve a problem using today's technology. Karbe is a very thoughtful man who tries to balance the past with the future. I feel very fortunate to have had the opportunity to spend two hours with him, learning about lenses, even if 50%+ was over my head.

    David
    David Farkas
    Leica Store Miami

  31. #81
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: What will the S2 actually DO?

    IME it is lens design *anomalies* like aberrations that impart the special rendering characteristics to lenses. The lenses that have always been sharpest optically generate the best technical image, but just as generally seem to have less "character" -- and to me the term "better" coming from an engineer usually means closer to technical perfection...

    This is precisely why I own a selection of older design lenses that mount on my Mamiya and Canon in addition to the newest APO/Asph designs... But the truth be told, most of the time I end up preferring technical superiority over character
    Jack
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    Re: What will the S2 actually DO?

    Jack,
    You may have hit upon it......"technical character"....the new secret sauce some hope to see in lens design! ;-)

    LJ

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    Re: What will the S2 actually DO?

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    That's cool.

    I thought we were having a discussion about capabilities of the S-System and the tech in the lenses, not a price/value discussion.

    If you (and your clients) are happy with what you have today in terms of final image quality, workflow, ergonomics, handling, speed, optics, etc.... don't change. No one is forcing you, certainly not me.

    Some of my customers have made upwards moves from D3x and some have made lateral moves from H3DII-31/39/50s. This was their choice. They were not forced or coerced. For them, the overall value was worth it. For others, it may not be. Simple as that.

    We are days away from official tech specs and a few weeks from performance proofs (sample images). The S2 will soon be in people's hands, shooting actual pictures. I can explain all that I know from a technical and handling point of view, as well as what I've leanred from the S2 product managers directly, but ultimately, the proof is in the pictures and the shooting experience.

    As I've said many times before, let's see what happens when photographers start really shooting with the S2.

    David


    PS - I just checked my current pricebook for Mamiya (still a dealer). The 28mm f/4.5D lens is $5699, pretty close to $6K....

    Just FYI:

    Phase One lowered the price of the 28mm lens last year to $4,490. So you could buy that lens for less than $4,000 now from any Phase One dealer. Many of the new D lenses carry a lower price point than the Mamiya lenses are being sold by Mac Group. Why pay $5,699 when you do not have to?


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  34. #84
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    Re: What will the S2 actually DO?

    There is of course another issue here. What about tolerances elsewhere in the system? the lens mount, mirror, etc. Its no good designing better lenses if poor alignment, focusing problems, even shutter vibration, etc robs that new lens of some or all of its advantages.

    I am thinking back to when I used film backs where the film alignment issues robbed many images of critical sharpness. I once experimented using a Bronica GS1 6x7 camera and noticed that sharpness varied from shot to shot due to film flatness issues, in part depnedent on whether the film had been left sitting in the holder overnight. While that problem has now passed for digital users, we are still using legacy designs in many cases where perhaps tolerances are just not fine enough.

    So I ask this: has Leica addressed tolerance issues with the new S2? Are other manufacturers doing so?

    Quentin
    Quentin Bargate
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  35. #85
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    Re: What will the S2 actually DO?

    Quote Originally Posted by Digitalcameraman View Post
    Just FYI:

    Phase One lowered the price of the 28mm lens last year to $4,490. So you could buy that lens for less than $4,000 now from any Phase One dealer. Many of the new D lenses carry a lower price point than the Mamiya lenses are being sold by Mac Group. Why pay $5,699 when you do not have to?


    Chris Snipes
    Phase One Dealer Florida
    Phase One Test Studio

    www.imageproduction.com
    [email protected]on.com

    Thanks Chris i was going to say less but not sure if I would put anyone in a bind on the price i paid.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: What will the S2 actually DO?

    I think these answers will be available in a month or two or maybe four.
    I am sitting tight, although I canfor sure speculate, I am waiting to get me one of those puppies in myhand.
    then I will have an opinon.
    -bob

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    Re: What will the S2 actually DO?

    There are several of us chomping at the bit to get to find out what the S2 really will do.

    Mark

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    Re: What will the S2 actually DO?

    Working on it.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: What will the S2 actually DO?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post
    There is of course another issue here. What about tolerances elsewhere in the system? the lens mount, mirror, etc. Its no good designing better lenses if poor alignment, focusing problems, even shutter vibration, etc robs that new lens of some or all of its advantages.

    I am thinking back to when I used film backs where the film alignment issues robbed many images of critical sharpness. I once experimented using a Bronica GS1 6x7 camera and noticed that sharpness varied from shot to shot due to film flatness issues, in part depnedent on whether the film had been left sitting in the holder overnight. While that problem has now passed for digital users, we are still using legacy designs in many cases where perhaps tolerances are just not fine enough.

    So I ask this: has Leica addressed tolerance issues with the new S2? Are other manufacturers doing so?

    Quentin
    Hasn't Leica already addressed these issues by stating that each camera/lens is calibrated? It's a closed integrated system. Hasselblad does the same thing, which is why you can't just slap a different H3D-II digital back on any H3D-II camera.

    Your film example reminded me of the Contax 645 vacuum film back which sucked the film tight to the pressure plate and eliminated film curl.

  40. #90
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    Re: What will the S2 actually DO?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gowin View Post
    There are several of us chomping at the bit to get to find out what the S2 really will do.

    Mark
    I'd be profoundly surprised if this camera didn't deliver in spades. For those with the capital to invest, and a lot of it, the S2's form factor will make it the preferred choice. The size of the thing alone is worthy of note.

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    Re: What will the S2 actually DO?

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Yup I kind of agree - it's just wishful thinking I suppose, I certainly use focus and recompose on my Canon gear and on any AF lenses on the Phamiya - but I hear that the Nikon Pro gear has KILLER AF and that does imply it could be done.

    I think I get slightly less that 80% but in that ballpark - but I do find that Sod's Law decrees that the expression I like is often in one of the 20%.
    I actually DO wish Leica had incorporated multi-point AF for the S2. Perhaps it's to daunting of a task with larger sized formats? To place sensitive AF points out that far from center on a frame that's 1.5X to 2X the size of a full frame 35mm may not yet be possible.

    Personally, I use the AF selector all the time. Did so with the Canon 1DsMKIII and now the Nikon D3X. It was essential for critical focus on off-center subjects when shooting the 50/1.2 and 85/1.2 L lenses ... so I had to master it.

    Focus/recompose lost to many shots for me, so I practiced AF point selection a lot. With practice is becomes second nature and "muscle memory" locks it in to deliver very fast control of the AF point placement. With the array spread of more sensitive cross type AF points on the later 35mm DSLRs cameras it now actually works quite well.

    I have the impression that Canon AF point selection is slightly faster compared to Nikon because the toggle is dedicated where the Nikon uses the master controller and often I start scrolling through the LCD images instead of moving the AF point But I shot Canon for years, and am just starting to master the Nikons to the degree that I had with Canon. I can say the Nikon AF is stellar, very accurate with very few miss-focuses ... but I've never shot an AF f/1.2 lens on a Nikon either ... they don't exist.

  42. #92
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    Re: What will the S2 actually DO?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Hasn't Leica already addressed these issues by stating that each camera/lens is calibrated? It's a closed integrated system. Hasselblad does the same thing, which is why you can't just slap a different H3D-II digital back on any H3D-II camera.

    Your film example reminded me of the Contax 645 vacuum film back which sucked the film tight to the pressure plate and eliminated film curl.
    Calibration is one thing, and it helps, but its not a substitute for underlying design issues or poor manufacturing tolerances.

    Contax also used that clever vacuum plate technology in its last iteration of the 35mm RTS as I recall. Neat solution.

    Perhaps the problems are greater where the back is removable. Its another variable. Leica might have an advantage because its an all in one solution.

    Film flatness was a bigger problem than many realised.

    Quentin
    Quentin Bargate
    Director of Bargate Murray, Law Firm of the Year 2012 - 2017, ”leading individual”, Chambers HNW guide, 2017, Photographer

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