What will the S2 actually DO?

[dfarkas]

Tim the S lenses will NOT have any 80 lux character to them . There just like the M summarits. Same basic design principle's and no old lens designs to reach back for. This is one issue with the S it's all new for resolution and not so much a character lens. I'm sure they will have nice bokeh but no Mandler look

All the digitars are the same built for resolution and not that warm fuzzy Mandler look that was made back in the 60's. There simple is nothing to go back too here. Now some old Hassy and Mamiya lens you can find lenses loaded with aberrations which is what that look is .

Your looking for a Lux which is not the case here

Guy,

The new Summarit-S lenses have nothing in common with the Summarit-M lenses except for the name. As you know, the naming in Leica only corresponds to the maximum aperture, not the optical formula like in Zeiss.

The 70mm Summarit-S is based on the design of the 50mm Summilux ASPH, which is the lens that Tim was referring to. I agree with him, the 50 Lux ASPH is both staggeringly sharp and precise, while at the same time beautiful and nuanced.

The 120mm APO Macro is based on the design of the 100mm APO Macro-R, which besides being a phenomenal performer (peak performance from wide-open at f/2.8 all the way to f/8), has gorgeous color and tone, with smooth bokeh.

The 180mm APO Elmar-S is based on the famed 180mm APO-Elmarit-R. Again, technically "perfect", but with character.

The 35mm Summarit-S is an unknown quantity and a brand new design, but could be one of the best wide angle MF lenses made in that FL. We'll have to see.

No, the S-lenses will not look like Mandler designs. That is for sure. I personally prefer the look of lenses like the 35 Cron ASPH, 50 Lux ASPH, 75 APO, 100 APO Macro, 90 APO, etc. I was never the biggest fan of lenses like the 80 Lux or the Noctilux. Everyone is entitled to their own tastes, of course. Maybe I'm just a Karbe fan.

David

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Mandler fan. LOL

 

[Guy Mancuso]

BTW where is this stuff written so people can peruse it. Not your blog but from Leica

 

[LJL]

BTW where is this stuff written so people can peruse it. Not your blog but from Leica

Thank you, Guy.....I too would like to see the direct info from the manufacturer on this stuff.

LJ

 

[dfarkas]

Mandler fan. LOL

C'mon Guy.... you can't deny the genius of Peter Karbe.

50 Lux ASPH, 75 APO Cron, 18 Elmar, 24 Elmar, 21 Lux, 24 Lux, 50 Noct 0.95, S-lenses...

...the extensive use of floating elements for close-focus and infinity performance, exotic glass formulations, brand new optical designs, rethinking the normal lens, cutting-edge ASPH grinding and coating technologies.....

And, he's still a young guy. Mandler may have been prolific, put Karbe is pushing the bounds of what is possible in optics.

David

 

[Henry Goh]

Take photos, roast most meats, do the laundry, mow the lawn, take out the garbage. What great value.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

No question great lens designer but going 6 k for lenses is just out of the question David, sorry not at this time could I even conceive of putting out this kind or money and for what perceived increase in IQ to what I have today. I'm already smoking my clients with amazing images . What gain would I get, not much and for a 35k switch in systems I just can't justify. Need to move the 35mm folks up but getting a MF shooter to do a lateral is tough work and a really hard sell. Unless there just dying for a Leica. Love the idea but the price versus increase in usage is just not there for me.

 

[dfarkas]

No question great lens designer but going 6 k for lenses is just out of the question David, sorry not at this time could I even conceive of putting out this kind or money and for what perceived increase in IQ to what I have today. I'm already smoking my clients with amazing images . What gain would I get, not much and for a 35k switch in systems I just can't justify. Need to move the 35mm folks up but getting a MF shooter to do a lateral is tough work and a really hard sell. Unless there just dying for a Leica. Love the idea but the price versus increase in usage is just not there for me.

That's cool.

I thought we were having a discussion about capabilities of the S-System and the tech in the lenses, not a price/value discussion.

If you (and your clients) are happy with what you have today in terms of final image quality, workflow, ergonomics, handling, speed, optics, etc.... don't change. No one is forcing you, certainly not me.

Some of my customers have made upwards moves from D3x and some have made lateral moves from H3DII-31/39/50s. This was their choice. They were not forced or coerced. For them, the overall value was worth it. For others, it may not be. Simple as that.

We are days away from official tech specs and a few weeks from performance proofs (sample images). The S2 will soon be in people's hands, shooting actual pictures. I can explain all that I know from a technical and handling point of view, as well as what I've leanred from the S2 product managers directly, but ultimately, the proof is in the pictures and the shooting experience.

As I've said many times before, let's see what happens when photographers start really shooting with the S2.

David


PS - I just checked my current pricebook for Mamiya (still a dealer). The 28mm f/4.5D lens is $5699, pretty close to $6K....

 

[Guy Mancuso]

For any MF shooter today it will always come down to price/value and increase in IQ over what you have today. The S2 has some features that are really nice but no proof yet of any IQ advancement of what we have today , so in essence for the MF shooter it is a expensive lateral without seeing proof today, tomorrow maybe different. It's simple is a stretch for MF shooters today.

If you pay 5699 than your nuts.LOL More like 4800 is the going rate and there most expensive lens.

David you have to understand I am really trying to give the most balanced view there is and not attack Leica in any way. I actually like this system and want it to sell. But at the same token I am having a hard time getting past the price today with really no proof of the system except the Red dot. Until we see the IQ and the sales/service/repair and functionality in action than our views may change. This will take some time and honestly i am a hard sell.

Also I would like to see less silence and more verbal and written information directly from Leica. There S website has no information to sink our teeth in but more a marketing tool. Being hard core techies that most us all are that is not going to cut it. We want examples, data and white papers to review and discuss but more importantly help in our evaluation of the system. Oh and hell and want a lower price and a couple hot models to go with it. LOL

I think the bottom line is the specs and samples should been offered with the price instead we are looking pricing without enough real data to back it up. Basically it feels more like hearsay and not a dig on you with your excellent blog but shouldn't this data really be coming from Leica itself and not only through preferred dealers. I mean that in the most respectful way

 

[tashley]

Tim,
Actually, the wide spread of selectable AF points for the S2 is a much needed consideration. The face detection is not something I would care about nor use, but if it came along for the ride with the selectable AF points, no problem ;-)

LJ

You know, I never ever ever ever EVER would have thought of using face detection - I've had it on some P&S cams and never used it. Then I read that on my Pen is doesn't just do focus but also detects faces for exposure, which is good against the light - so I tried it and Lo! it is good. Then i got to thinking, with the Phamiya and a 150mm lens, even at F16, focus and recompose error can take you out of best DOF so easily. In the studio what I would like is a magic roving AF point that can either be pointed at and then will follow, or can find of its own accord, an eye. It CAN be done so why don't we get it? Is it just because it sounds amateur?
:wtf:

 

[ptomsu]

Actually I agree with Guy that Leica is far too quiet about the S System.

To launch such a system, which should become the new star in high end digital, it needs definitely much much more than what is available from Leica today. I wonder why they did not already start some months ago.

This silence is rather contra productive! It lets a number of guessing occur and everybody who might be interested is loosing interest more and more - at least for me this is what happens.

And given the fact that after launch real availability is another year or so out, the whole S system - even if technically super perfect - is just vaporware for the next 12 months to come.

Sorry :shocked:

 

[Jack]

Tim,

All due respect, with the Mamiya 150/2.8D lens we'll need EYEBALL recognition to get crisp portraits on the fly

Seriously, multiple AF focus points are insignificant consideration for me. I have learned over the years to use the center spot to focus, quickly recompose and take the picture. Using this technique I get a good solid 80% keeper rate on people. The last thing I want to be doing is fiddling with a dial to get the AF to some point I think may be the proper focus area... I've had it on my Canons for years, tried it a few times and in general hate it. What I do like is Canon's late generation 45-point AF auto selection -- it does a great job of targeting motion or relevant subject matter to focus on, though even then it grabs the wrong subject about 25% of the time...

 

[dfarkas]

For any MF shooter today it will always come down to price/value and increase in IQ over what you have today. The S2 has some features that are really nice but no proof yet of any IQ advancement of what we have today , so in essence for the MF shooter it is a expensive lateral without seeing proof today, tomorrow maybe different. It's simple is a stretch for MF shooters today.

If you pay 5699 than your nuts.LOL More like 4800 is the going rate and there most expensive lens.

David you have to understand I am really trying to give the most balanced view there is and not attack Leica in any way. I actually like this system and want it to sell. But at the same token I am having a hard time getting past the price today with really no proof of the system except the Red dot. Until we see the IQ and the sales/service/repair and functionality in action than our views may change. This will take some time and honestly i am a hard sell.

Also I would like to see less silence and more verbal and written information directly from Leica. There S website has no information to sink our teeth in but more a marketing tool. Being hard core techies that most us all are that is not going to cut it. We want examples, data and white papers to review and discuss but more importantly help in our evaluation of the system. Oh and hell and want a lower price and a couple hot models to go with it. LOL

I think the bottom line is the specs and samples should been offered with the price instead we are looking pricing without enough real data to back it up. Basically it feels more like hearsay and not a dig on you with your excellent blog but shouldn't this data really be coming from Leica itself and not only through preferred dealers. I mean that in the most respectful way

Yes, I think that direct-from-Leica communication has been lacking. I would have been much happier if price, specs, and images came out on the same day. Totally agree with you on that one.

As far as the 28mm f/4.5D lens goes... the dealer net on it is $5300. In other words, that is a whopping 7% profit margin at full MAP pricing. You must have either gotten a great deal or bought yours a couple of years ago when the price was lower.

David

 

[tashley]

Tim,

All due respect, with the Mamiya 150/2.8D lens we'll need EYEBALL recognition to get crisp portraits on the fly

Seriously, multiple AF focus points are insignificant consideration for me. I have learned over the years to use the center spot to focus, quickly recompose and take the picture. Using this technique I get a good solid 80% keeper rate on people. The last thing I want to be doing is fiddling with a dial to get the AF to some point I think may be the proper focus area... I've had it on my Canons for years, tried it a few times and in general hate it. What I do like is Canon's late generation 45-point AF auto selection -- it does a great job of targeting motion or relevant subject matter to focus on, though even then it grabs the wrong subject about 25% of the time...

Yup I kind of agree - it's just wishful thinking I suppose, I certainly use focus and recompose on my Canon gear and on any AF lenses on the Phamiya - but I hear that the Nikon Pro gear has KILLER AF and that does imply it could be done.

I think I get slightly less that 80% but in that ballpark - but I do find that Sod's Law decrees that the expression I like is often in one of the 20%.

 

[Jack]

but I do find that Sod's Law decrees that the expression I like is often in one of the 20%.

An invariable inevitability for all of us!

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Talk english please:ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL:

 

[Jack]

Sod is English -- their contemporary of Murphy

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Well I did not learn about Sod in Jersey growing up. That was something we put on the dirt after we put the body in the ground.

 

[georgl]

"The 120mm APO Macro is based on the design of the 100mm APO Macro-R,"

What do you mean with "based on"? There are a few designs that are directly related (like Summilux 21/24) and sharing optical parts. But the S-lenses are entirely new designs, of course they share design ideas based on their basic requirements and the current "mindset" (of the company, designer...). So they start on a blank page and don't take any calculations or actual productions elements of exisiting designs like the Apo100, or do they!?

Hopefully Leica managed to get some decent pictures taken with the S2 right from the beginning and will present them on their site!

 

[dfarkas]

"The 120mm APO Macro is based on the design of the 100mm APO Macro-R,"

What do you mean with "based on"? There are a few designs that are directly related (like Summilux 21/24) and sharing optical parts. But the S-lenses are entirely new designs, of course they share design ideas based on their basic requirements and the current "mindset" (of the company, designer...). So they start on a blank page and don't take any calculations or actual productions elements of exisiting designs like the Apo100, or do they!?

Hopefully Leica managed to get some decent pictures taken with the S2 right from the beginning and will present them on their site!

My understanding is that the design concept is similiar with regards to element shapes, positioning, and quantitiy. Obviously, these lenses are quite different as well. The 120 Macro is half a stop faster, covers a larger image circle, incorporates a floating element, is weather sealed, has AF, and is an internal focusing design. And, it's a 120 not a 100. So, perhaps the more accurate way to say this is that the 120 APO Macro designer was influenced by the characteristics of the 100 APO R lens, when formulating the new design.

When I asked Peter Karbe if the performce of the new 120 will be equal to that of the already excellent 100, he replied, "the designs are very similiar, but the 120 is better." Later in our discussion, he explained to me that he spends a good amount of time studying past Leica lens designs for new ideas or approaches. He tries to envision how his predecessors like Mandler or Berek would solve a problem using today's technology. Karbe is a very thoughtful man who tries to balance the past with the future. I feel very fortunate to have had the opportunity to spend two hours with him, learning about lenses, even if 50%+ was over my head.

David