What will the S2 actually DO?

[Jack]

IME it is lens design *anomalies* like aberrations that impart the special rendering characteristics to lenses. The lenses that have always been sharpest optically generate the best technical image, but just as generally seem to have less "character" -- and to me the term "better" coming from an engineer usually means closer to technical perfection...

This is precisely why I own a selection of older design lenses that mount on my Mamiya and Canon in addition to the newest APO/Asph designs... But the truth be told, most of the time I end up preferring technical superiority over character

 

[LJL]

Jack,
You may have hit upon it......"technical character"....the new secret sauce some hope to see in lens design! ;-)

LJ

 

[Digitalcameraman]

That's cool.

I thought we were having a discussion about capabilities of the S-System and the tech in the lenses, not a price/value discussion.

If you (and your clients) are happy with what you have today in terms of final image quality, workflow, ergonomics, handling, speed, optics, etc.... don't change. No one is forcing you, certainly not me.

Some of my customers have made upwards moves from D3x and some have made lateral moves from H3DII-31/39/50s. This was their choice. They were not forced or coerced. For them, the overall value was worth it. For others, it may not be. Simple as that.

We are days away from official tech specs and a few weeks from performance proofs (sample images). The S2 will soon be in people's hands, shooting actual pictures. I can explain all that I know from a technical and handling point of view, as well as what I've leanred from the S2 product managers directly, but ultimately, the proof is in the pictures and the shooting experience.

As I've said many times before, let's see what happens when photographers start really shooting with the S2.

David


PS - I just checked my current pricebook for Mamiya (still a dealer). The 28mm f/4.5D lens is $5699, pretty close to $6K....

Just FYI:

Phase One lowered the price of the 28mm lens last year to $4,490. So you could buy that lens for less than $4,000 now from any Phase One dealer. Many of the new D lenses carry a lower price point than the Mamiya lenses are being sold by Mac Group. Why pay $5,699 when you do not have to?


Chris Snipes
Phase One Dealer Florida
Phase One Test Studio

www.imageproduction.com
[email protected]

 

[Quentin_Bargate]

There is of course another issue here. What about tolerances elsewhere in the system? the lens mount, mirror, etc. Its no good designing better lenses if poor alignment, focusing problems, even shutter vibration, etc robs that new lens of some or all of its advantages.

I am thinking back to when I used film backs where the film alignment issues robbed many images of critical sharpness. I once experimented using a Bronica GS1 6x7 camera and noticed that sharpness varied from shot to shot due to film flatness issues, in part depnedent on whether the film had been left sitting in the holder overnight. While that problem has now passed for digital users, we are still using legacy designs in many cases where perhaps tolerances are just not fine enough.

So I ask this: has Leica addressed tolerance issues with the new S2? Are other manufacturers doing so?

Quentin

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Just FYI:

Phase One lowered the price of the 28mm lens last year to $4,490. So you could buy that lens for less than $4,000 now from any Phase One dealer. Many of the new D lenses carry a lower price point than the Mamiya lenses are being sold by Mac Group. Why pay $5,699 when you do not have to?


Chris Snipes
Phase One Dealer Florida
Phase One Test Studio

www.imageproduction.com
[email protected]

Thanks Chris i was going to say less but not sure if I would put anyone in a bind on the price i paid.

 

[Bob]

I think these answers will be available in a month or two or maybe four.
I am sitting tight, although I canfor sure speculate, I am waiting to get me one of those puppies in myhand.
then I will have an opinon.
-bob

 

[Mark Gowin]

There are several of us chomping at the bit to get to find out what the S2 really will do.

Mark

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Working on it.

 

[fotografz]

There is of course another issue here. What about tolerances elsewhere in the system? the lens mount, mirror, etc. Its no good designing better lenses if poor alignment, focusing problems, even shutter vibration, etc robs that new lens of some or all of its advantages.

I am thinking back to when I used film backs where the film alignment issues robbed many images of critical sharpness. I once experimented using a Bronica GS1 6x7 camera and noticed that sharpness varied from shot to shot due to film flatness issues, in part depnedent on whether the film had been left sitting in the holder overnight. While that problem has now passed for digital users, we are still using legacy designs in many cases where perhaps tolerances are just not fine enough.

So I ask this: has Leica addressed tolerance issues with the new S2? Are other manufacturers doing so?

Quentin

Hasn't Leica already addressed these issues by stating that each camera/lens is calibrated? It's a closed integrated system. Hasselblad does the same thing, which is why you can't just slap a different H3D-II digital back on any H3D-II camera.

Your film example reminded me of the Contax 645 vacuum film back which sucked the film tight to the pressure plate and eliminated film curl. :thumbup:

 

[fotografz]

There are several of us chomping at the bit to get to find out what the S2 really will do.

Mark

I'd be profoundly surprised if this camera didn't deliver in spades. For those with the capital to invest, and a lot of it, the S2's form factor will make it the preferred choice. The size of the thing alone is worthy of note.

 

[fotografz]

Yup I kind of agree - it's just wishful thinking I suppose, I certainly use focus and recompose on my Canon gear and on any AF lenses on the Phamiya - but I hear that the Nikon Pro gear has KILLER AF and that does imply it could be done.

I think I get slightly less that 80% but in that ballpark - but I do find that Sod's Law decrees that the expression I like is often in one of the 20%.

I actually DO wish Leica had incorporated multi-point AF for the S2. Perhaps it's to daunting of a task with larger sized formats? To place sensitive AF points out that far from center on a frame that's 1.5X to 2X the size of a full frame 35mm may not yet be possible.

Personally, I use the AF selector all the time. Did so with the Canon 1DsMKIII and now the Nikon D3X. It was essential for critical focus on off-center subjects when shooting the 50/1.2 and 85/1.2 L lenses ... so I had to master it.

Focus/recompose lost to many shots for me, so I practiced AF point selection a lot. With practice is becomes second nature and "muscle memory" locks it in to deliver very fast control of the AF point placement. With the array spread of more sensitive cross type AF points on the later 35mm DSLRs cameras it now actually works quite well.

I have the impression that Canon AF point selection is slightly faster compared to Nikon because the toggle is dedicated where the Nikon uses the master controller and often I start scrolling through the LCD images instead of moving the AF point :banghead: But I shot Canon for years, and am just starting to master the Nikons to the degree that I had with Canon. I can say the Nikon AF is stellar, very accurate with very few miss-focuses ... but I've never shot an AF f/1.2 lens on a Nikon either ... they don't exist.

 

[Quentin_Bargate]

Hasn't Leica already addressed these issues by stating that each camera/lens is calibrated? It's a closed integrated system. Hasselblad does the same thing, which is why you can't just slap a different H3D-II digital back on any H3D-II camera.

Your film example reminded me of the Contax 645 vacuum film back which sucked the film tight to the pressure plate and eliminated film curl. :thumbup:

Calibration is one thing, and it helps, but its not a substitute for underlying design issues or poor manufacturing tolerances.

Contax also used that clever vacuum plate technology in its last iteration of the 35mm RTS as I recall. Neat solution.

Perhaps the problems are greater where the back is removable. Its another variable. Leica might have an advantage because its an all in one solution.

Film flatness was a bigger problem than many realised.

Quentin