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Thread: looks like the Hy6 is no more....

  1. #51
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    Re: looks like the Hy6 is no more....

    Given that both P30+ and S2 are similarly sized Kodak sensors with microlenses, and that the S2's sensor is significantly newer, it is quite possible that it will outperform the P30+ ISO for ISO. This would mean that ISO 1250 might actually be very useable.

    It occurs to me that under the above assumption, it might be that Leica deliberately don't offer an ISO 2500, knowing that LR is weak in this area...
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    Re: looks like the Hy6 is no more....

    MIGHT and that is the big question but given the raw processing look at this crap from ACR. AND this is my WORRY

    FF image ISO 800 from the P30+ the first one is processed in C1

    Watch the crops for noise and that freaking pink I get every bloody time in ACR drives me NUTS. All processed at base defaults shot under tungsten and back set for tungsten

    C1 FF
    C1 crop
    LR crop

    Carsten I have to say assume nothing here because from experience it means nothing and given the converters out there I already know what they do with my files and did with my Nikons, Canons and Leica's as well. And this goes right back to that adage old argument on converters but I can only go by what I see from experience . Will the S2 be any different than the last 2 years of ACR output. MY BIG QUESTION MARK here

    These examples are why LR has been tossed from my machine
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    Re: looks like the Hy6 is no more....

    I would save them to your desktop but clearly the noise is worse in ACR

    And clearly we went OT, sorry. I just don't have a lot of faith in the output coming from Adobe and have not been for quite some time, clearly my Phase stuff looks like crap from it and i don't want to use that as the gold standard either because C1 is dedicated to the Phase backs just like Phocus is to Hassy. The question is and something we have to think about is the dedicated software better than the generic . Now Raw developer is good and for the s2 that maybe the answer not sure or Aperture but in all honesty I would have preferred C1 and maybe because I am so tuned to it. I'm not saying LR or ACR are bad they are actually quite good but if I have to work harder at my Phase files than not worth it to me. Until we get some S2 files let's just say I am skeptical in this area. I have to be honest about this and it is a real concern on the S2
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    Re: looks like the Hy6 is no more....

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Given that both P30+ and S2 are similarly sized Kodak sensors with microlenses, and that the S2's sensor is significantly newer, it is quite possible that it will outperform the P30+ ISO for ISO. This would mean that ISO 1250 might actually be very useable.
    I have yet to see an image of any camera that is "very useable" at the highest ISO. Maybe the P21+... it's somehow "nice" at highest ISO... but far from "very usable" except if it's for a special grainy (indeed "filmlike") look (but you need to do carefull processing).
    The new sensors are about one stop better in ISO. This is why the the P40+ and the P30+ are more or less the same regarding ISO.
    So thinking about a P40+ with microlenses... this is probably what the S2 will do ISO wise. Now the software comes into mind. And the fact that Leica has effectively little experience with firmware.
    If in V1.0 the S2 will be "very useable" at ISO800 that's fine (not more, not less).
    ... IMHO

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    Re: looks like the Hy6 is no more....

    There won't be an ISO 800, Thomas. The range is 80-1250 with half-steps, so there will be 640 and 1250, and in between something around 960. One can hope that this will be good.

    Guy, the noise is junk in LR in that image, but C1 really mangled the hair. Looks at the nice strands in LR and then in the C1 image they are totally smudged. Weird.
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    Re: looks like the Hy6 is no more....

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    There won't be an ISO 800
    so ISO960 then

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    Re: looks like the Hy6 is no more....


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    Re: looks like the Hy6 is no more....

    in the quoted link David states about moire:
    According to Leica, they haven't been able to produce moire in DNGs under any circumstance.... and they've really, really tried.
    well, the P40+/P65+ with the same pixelpitch (but without microlenses) produce moire. I can not imagine that the S2 will not produce moire... I wonder where and how they "really, really tried" it.

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    Re: looks like the Hy6 is no more....

    Doesn't inspire confidence in their testing ...

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    Re: looks like the Hy6 is no more....

    Maybe the microlenses are acting like an AA filter. Wouldn't that be an irony? But who knows...the S2 will get its shot when it makes its way into a few people's hands.

    As for the Hy6, I am disappointed. Selfishly, of course, since I am an owner, but also for the market in general. I agree that nothing has been announced formally, but I am also not deluding myself into thinking that it is going to be kept alive. At the best of times there was a very small market for this camera system, and now with the hurdles that would seem to be required to restart production, design the remaining components and so on -- all for what? A thousand more sales if they are lucky? Most people who were really clamoring for a Hy6 and were in the target market for it bought one already.

    My own frustration is that while I really like the camera itself, I do not really like the Sinar back I have for it. It just does not inspire me in any way apart from resolution. I just don't really like the look of the files, and though I can usually work them into something I like, I really don't want to have to. So I would sell it and happily shoot film, but the thing has no 6x6 back, and it is not much fun shooting 645 in a 6x6 camera -- constantly popping the back in and out, having to mentally block out part of the frame and remember for every shot ("I am only using this part of the VF").

    Anyway, I don't know what I will do now, as it is such an ordeal to sell it all. I live in Iceland, and there would be no domestic interest. All the boxes and the hard case for the back are in storage in the US. If they had just released that 6x6 back, I would be content. Now I am sitting on an incredible system that whenever I am about to use it, I say to myself, "Well, for this job, why don't you grab the 203FE...6x6 and you like the metering better...". So my options are, 1. sit and do nothing, shooting it occasionally (which I have been doing). 2. Just put everything on ebay as is, take a huge loss. 3. Sell it at a friendly price on GetDPI and take a huge loss. 4. Wait until I next go back to the US and grab all the boxes, packaging etc, and sell it there at a huge loss.

    Sorry for the venting. I know I am extraordinarily lucky to own this system, but in the course of owning it I realized I like film better than Sinar's brand of MF digital, and that I like shooting film better on other cameras than the Hy6 (the 203FE, Mamiya 7II etc).
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    Re: looks like the Hy6 is no more....

    Stuart, a few thoughts to consider:

    Since you already have expressed a liking for a 203FE to some degree and already have it ... why not take a look at the new CFV/39 for it ? ... I know some other Hy6 users are swapping to that solution (maybe one will chime in).

    Pricing is relative I think. The new CFV/39 is like $14K USD. Back when you bought your Hy6, a 39 meg back like this would have been at least $24K or more. So you lose on one end, but are getting a comparable resolution back for a lot less now.

    Then you have the option of film or digital at will, and the CFV/39 files are pretty easy to work on, and look pretty nice right out of the camera.

    Actually that's my big hurdle for the S2 ... I'd take a near fatal "Beat Down" on selling my current stuff, but the Leica is priced like the clock spun back to 3 years ago, not now.

    Just a thought,

    -Marc

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    Re: looks like the Hy6 is no more....

    Interesting Stuart,
    I wonder what you dislike in the Sinar back files?
    Actually I personally really like the files form dalsa sensor.
    The Sinar backs are pretty fast, the 75LV is (as far as I understand) the only back without microlenses which offers very good higher ISO performance and all that on a large sensor (compare to a P30+ for example)
    Maybe they could improve the display or the user interdface.

    Actually I find the Hassy V System so classic and sexy that I had a small thought to jump over to A CFV39 back and a 205 - but than I realized that I would give up metering when using the WLF, I would give up a rotating back, I would give up 1/1000 flash sync, I would have a back where the battery sits under the back and not in the back, no AF, etc etc.
    I think the Schneider 80mm is nicer than the Hassy Zeiss 80mm, the Zeiss 40if is probably unbeatable though. 110 for both available, but 50 and 180/2.8 Schneider lenses are much to my taste as well.

    I still find the Hassy a very nice system, but I can not see why one would want to change from Hy6 to Hassy V system other than maybe astetic reasons.
    Just re-read Marcs answer and I see another reason for the Hassy V if one wants to shoot both digital and film in 6x6.

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    Re: looks like the Hy6 is no more....

    Stuart,

    I have a Hy6 too. I read somewhere that Sinar wanted the files to be neutral with the intention that the photographer would work them into what he wanted.

    If you like the final result, I wonder if you could make some actions, or presets that would make for quick satisfying results.

    Best,

    Mitchell

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    Re: looks like the Hy6 is no more....

    Stuart:

    Here's another perspective.

    From someone who has sold all of the medium format products, I think that your dislike for the Sinar out of the box file will be similar to your reaction to the Hasselblad out of the box file. Both Sinar and Hasselblad have a similar look out of the box, which is the file is fairly raw and unprocessed. In comparison, Leaf and Phase One files have more of a finished look at the start.

    Which is better is not relavent here (or really anywhere, it's more a question of which is preferred by the user). If that is something that bothers you, the Hasselblad may be more of the same.

    But there were two parts of your post which particularly caught my eye. One was your statement that if the Hy6 just shot 6x6 film, you would be content. The other was the term "huge loss".

    My thought is that if all that stands between contentment and huge loss is a 6x6 film back, you've got that with the 203. Which maybe brings us back to the file. I will echo Mitchell that you can create a more processed look in the Sinar software and use that as a default starting place so that you're beginning closer to where you want to be.

    Again, I don't see the Hasselblad solving that for you because it starts at a very similar stage. And in that case, if that is the deal breaker, then maybe a Leaf Aptus is the simple, most cost efficient answer (if trading out digital) as you would only need to sell the digital back...


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    Re: looks like the Hy6 is no more....

    Stuart,
    if you like film better and prefer the Hassy 203 why would you keep the Hy6?
    If lenses are the reason you could just buy a Rollei 6008 which you get cheap and use it with your Rollei lenses.
    Sell your Hy6 and the Sinar back, at a loss in one way, but you will own more money than before selling it and you dont even need to spend that money for photographic equipment since film seems all you want to shoot anyways.
    For me scanning is just too time and disk-space consuming, and I dont have a own/good lab where I could make analog prints. So I kind of gave up using film.

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    Re: looks like the Hy6 is no more....

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    Interesting Stuart,
    I wonder what you dislike in the Sinar back files?
    Actually I personally really like the files form dalsa sensor.
    The Sinar backs are pretty fast, the 75LV is (as far as I understand) the only back without microlenses which offers very good higher ISO performance and all that on a large sensor (compare to a P30+ for example)
    Maybe they could improve the display or the user interdface.

    Actually I find the Hassy V System so classic and sexy that I had a small thought to jump over to A CFV39 back and a 205 - but than I realized that I would give up metering when using the WLF, I would give up a rotating back, I would give up 1/1000 flash sync, I would have a back where the battery sits under the back and not in the back, no AF, etc etc.
    I think the Schneider 80mm is nicer than the Hassy Zeiss 80mm, the Zeiss 40if is probably unbeatable though. 110 for both available, but 50 and 180/2.8 Schneider lenses are much to my taste as well.

    I still find the Hassy a very nice system, but I can not see why one would want to change from Hy6 to Hassy V system other than maybe astetic reasons.
    Just re-read Marcs answer and I see another reason for the Hassy V if one wants to shoot both digital and film in 6x6.
    You lose metering with a WLF on a Hasselblad 200 series camera? That's news to me and everyone else that owns one

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    Re: looks like the Hy6 is no more....

    Thank you all for the considered responses. I realize that my issue are very much my own, and I don't want to imply that the gear is not good or is somehow lesser than that from other manufacturers. It is just not working as well for me.

    So I guess I will respond in order:
    Marc -- that is a very good point, and one I have been considering very carefully. At this point though, the M9, if it is real, is of more interest to me than medium format digital. I really like film for medium format, and I like the idea of a higher MP digital M camera, with M lenses. Bringing an Mamiya 7II with black and white and an M9 is a light, extremely high quality digital/film kit that is light and takes up very little space.
    As for price, my Hy6 was new, and my 54LV was used, so total price was just under 15,000. That is barely more than the CFV-39. Today, I would be lucky to get 5,000 for the back and 3,000 for the camera.

    Thomas -- Well part of the draw of film for me is that I am a lab. I have started a custom printing and processing lab here, so I am set up to process and print film already, with a good darkroom and enlarger, a very good scanner, a jobo for processing and so on. It is easy for me to get better results that way than it has been with the medium format digital files.

    I am not sure why I have not been able to crack the digital files from the Sinar back -- they just look so digital to me...or perhaps I should say un-filmlike. The colors look wrong, the characteristic curve looks wrong (too flat, no shoulder for the highlights and shadows), the files are always underexposed out of the back, but not consistently so -- so EV compensation does not work well..files tend to be between -.3 and -2.0 EV underexposed, even with center weighted metering. The highlight behavior is weird, with color casts in blown out highlights. I could go on, but I don't think it really matters -- they just don't look right to me, and I don't want to spend 20 minutes with every photo to get them right. I have not had to do that with any other camera, film or digital, so I don't really want to have to do it now. The files I am getting are too inconsistent for any batch corrections or actions that I have the skill to create.

    I would like to say that, while I am no digital guru, I know that I shoot well enough to get slide film spot on every time, so I don't think it is any failing in my shooting technique, but in the way the workflow is set up on the digital end. I am sure that many people could easily crack this, but I have not been able to. More importantly, I don't WANT to have to...as far as I am concerned, they should look good out of the box.

    As for why I got the Hy6 in the first place --- I had a Rollei 6008 AF that I had been shooting for film. I had several lenses already, and I liked the lenses very much. I did not like the size, weight, metering and battery issues of the 6008AF, though I loved the grip, viewfinder, ergonomics and film back system. The Hy6 solved the battery, size and weight issues, while keeping all the advantages. It is a superb camera, but it does not shoot 6x6.


    Steve -- thank you for the comparison of the general raw output of the four manufacturers. I agree that if Hasselblad has a similar sort of philosophy, I would probably be better suited with Leaf or Phase. Leaf would be a good option for the Hy6, but they are pretty much gone, right? Will the Leaf files be fully supported in Capture One (as well as they were in Leaf Capture)?

    In all, I think the best solution for me is to just wait a bit to see what happens to the market for Hy6/Rollei 6000 items. The losses can't get much worse (well, other than for the back), so just waiting a bit until things are clearer in the market, and hopefully a bit of a economic turnaround.

    Finally, I want to apologize to those of you who really love the Hy6 and Sinar backs and are doing great work with them. It is not my intention to trash it, and my failure with it is surely due to my own lack of skill and patience with the digital medium. I did not intend to make this thread all about me, but I just wanted to respond directly to those of you who had questions about my issues.
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    Re: looks like the Hy6 is no more....

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    Stuart:

    Here's another perspective.

    From someone who has sold all of the medium format products, I think that your dislike for the Sinar out of the box file will be similar to your reaction to the Hasselblad out of the box file. Both Sinar and Hasselblad have a similar look out of the box, which is the file is fairly raw and unprocessed. In comparison, Leaf and Phase One files have more of a finished look at the start.

    Which is better is not relavent here (or really anywhere, it's more a question of which is preferred by the user). If that is something that bothers you, the Hasselblad may be more of the same.

    But there were two parts of your post which particularly caught my eye. One was your statement that if the Hy6 just shot 6x6 film, you would be content. The other was the term "huge loss".

    My thought is that if all that stands between contentment and huge loss is a 6x6 film back, you've got that with the 203. Which maybe brings us back to the file. I will echo Mitchell that you can create a more processed look in the Sinar software and use that as a default starting place so that you're beginning closer to where you want to be.

    Again, I don't see the Hasselblad solving that for you because it starts at a very similar stage. And in that case, if that is the deal breaker, then maybe a Leaf Aptus is the simple, most cost efficient answer (if trading out digital) as you would only need to sell the digital back...


    Steve Hendrix
    That's also news to me Steve. The CFV is famous for out of the box files for everyone that owns one.

    But, I could care less, since I don't make a dime from any of this what-so-ever. Slug it out boys ... the pie is getting smaller.

    Stuart, the best method is to listen to everyone, and then to no one ... so you don't get stuck again based on all the sales chatter ... get a demo to see what you like or don't like.

    Best of luck!

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    Re: looks like the Hy6 is no more....

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Richardson View Post
    Thank you all for the considered responses. I realize that my issue are very much my own, and I don't want to imply that the gear is not good or is somehow lesser than that from other manufacturers. It is just not working as well for me.

    So I guess I will respond in order:
    Marc -- that is a very good point, and one I have been considering very carefully. At this point though, the M9, if it is real, is of more interest to me than medium format digital. I really like film for medium format, and I like the idea of a higher MP digital M camera, with M lenses. Bringing an Mamiya 7II with black and white and an M9 is a light, extremely high quality digital/film kit that is light and takes up very little space.
    Me too ... bring on the M9 ... which I am pretty sure is real. That's getting my financial vote.

    I also really like film for MF, and now that heavy commercial work has evaporated for me, I'd just as soon shoot film for my personal work. There will always be some digital back to buy later if it becomes a need.

    Funny you mention it, the one camera I really miss is the Mamiya 7. I did scans with a 949 that are stunning ... especially from that 43mm.

    While not an insignificant amount, at least you didn't drop $35K on a Hy6 like others did.

    Again, best of luck whichever way you go.

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    Re: looks like the Hy6 is no more....

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Lost control for corrections , Even though they say they don't need it . I want distortion control for barrel
    Don't mean to get too far OT, but....

    ....just wanted to pass along some info on distortion on the Leica S lenses. The 35mm Summarit-S has only -1.2% distortion at infitinity and -1.8% at close focus. The 120mm APO-Macro has 0%. These are measured numbers direct from Peter Karbe. I asked, he answered.

    Just for the sake of completeness, the 70mm Summarit-S has -1.0% and the 180mm APO-Tele-Elmar has 0%.

    To get back OT, I also heard from people at Leica that the Hy6 is indeed no more. They have relationships to people at F&H and the decision was made weeks ago, beyond the insolvency. They also said that no one will continue it, not Rollei, not Sinar, not Jenoptik, not Leaf/Phase. Too bad. The system had some really nice aspects and access to great lenses.

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    Re: looks like the Hy6 is no more....

    David I am more worried about the 24mm when it comes out but the 35mm does have some. The longer lenses usually don't have barrel issues
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    Re: looks like the Hy6 is no more....

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    That's also news to me Steve. The CFV is famous for out of the box files for everyone that owns one.

    But, I could care less, since I don't make a dime from any of this what-so-ever. Slug it out boys ... the pie is getting smaller.

    Stuart, the best method is to listen to everyone, and then to no one ... so you don't get stuck again based on all the sales chatter ... get a demo to see what you like or don't like.

    Best of luck!
    Steve isn't saying one or the other is better (actually he specifically said that's for the user to decide as it's mostly a matter of taste).

    He was just (IMO correctly) saying that Leaf/Phase have a similar look with default settings and Hassy/Sinar have a similar look with default settings.

    We are the biggest proponents of users putting these systems into their hands for real-world shooting (including all the post-processing) before deciding.

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    Re: looks like the Hy6 is no more....

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    Steve isn't saying one or the other is better (actually he specifically said that's for the user to decide as it's mostly a matter of taste).

    He was just (IMO correctly) saying that Leaf/Phase have a similar look with default settings and Hassy/Sinar have a similar look with default settings.

    We are the biggest proponents of users putting these systems into their hands for real-world shooting (including all the post-processing) before deciding.

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    Yes - correct. I wasn't saying it was not pleasing or looked better or worse, just less processed. And in that regard, Sinar and Hasselblad files are similar.

    Also - Stuart, since you brought it up, there will be Capture One support for future Leaf products (yes there are some in the pipe) and legacy products back to Aptus II (at this point).


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    Re: looks like the Hy6 is no more....

    I think if I had a lab and the skills I would shoot a lot of film too.

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    Re: looks like the Hy6 is no more....

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    While not an insignificant amount, at least you didn't drop $35K on a Hy6 like others did.
    Ouch

  26. #76
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    Re: looks like the Hy6 is no more....

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    Ouch
    Well, looking at your recent posts David, I'd say that it was money well spent.

    It not as if your camera stopped working just because new ones are announced. If you're like me then you're just beginning to get the hang of what you own now, about a year after playing with it. But as a fellow gear junkie I also realize how difficult resisting the next fix is, specially with Guy around . God help us over the next couple of months, looks like its going to be raining new gear.

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    Re: looks like the Hy6 is no more....

    I use my Sinar 75LVr on an Hy6/205FCC/Alpa/Mamiya RZ/Contax and could use it on an artec. There are metering outcome differences between the various systems. I also shoot with Hasselblad H3D11-39 and CFV11 on H and 200 systems. I have also owned and shot extensively with Leaf 75 and Phase One P45+.

    Hasselblad files are 'warmer' straight out of the box. Leaf and Phase files are 'cooler' - Sinar is dead flat.

    Metering issues are about camera body - I get different metering outcomes with different bodies. The Hy6 definitely does not have a consistent and predictable metering capability. I put it down to my camera - maybe it is a general issue. Either way - I am not fussed, the fix isnt a big deal - I always shoot using the histogram for final verification in MFD land.

    Clear superiority from Sinar files is found in the absolutely neutral colour rendition - the best white balance and the best colour caste removal workflow. For me - the Sinar back is a keeper not only for absolute file quality and IQ but also because it is a versatile put me on any camera system you like back.

    Of course people will chuckle about any positive SInar statements - thats fine by me - I dont hang opinions on my walls . I wont disagree though with anyone who says - that they are nervous abotu buying a SInar MFD back because of quesion marks abotu longer term existance - that is a risk which is probably greater for Sinar than Pahse One or hasselblad - bt perhaps not greatly so....
    Last edited by PeterA; 28th August 2009 at 17:10.

  28. #78
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: looks like the Hy6 is no more....

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Richardson View Post
    Maybe the microlenses are acting like an AA filter.
    IME they do. But only like a very weak AA filter, and to my way of thinking is what AA filters should be -- very weak.

    ,
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: looks like the Hy6 is no more....

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    MIGHT and that is the big question but given the raw processing look at this crap from ACR. AND this is my WORRY

    FF image ISO 800 from the P30+ the first one is processed in C1

    Watch the crops for noise and that freaking pink I get every bloody time in ACR drives me NUTS. All processed at base defaults shot under tungsten and back set for tungsten

    C1 FF
    C1 crop
    LR crop

    Carsten I have to say assume nothing here because from experience it means nothing and given the converters out there I already know what they do with my files and did with my Nikons, Canons and Leica's as well. And this goes right back to that adage old argument on converters but I can only go by what I see from experience . Will the S2 be any different than the last 2 years of ACR output. MY BIG QUESTION MARK here

    These examples are why LR has been tossed from my machine
    Guy

    Is this the new Camera Raw ACR 5.5 or Lightroom (which does not yet have the newer ACR)?

    Woody

  30. #80
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: looks like the Hy6 is no more....

    Version 5.4

    Each version has been identical so far. I have never seen a change in my Phase files
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: looks like the Hy6 is no more....

    David,

    I'm quite happy with the results I get from my e75LV/HY6 kit and honestly don't feel I'd be better off with anything else out there. Not saying I'd be worse off, but no reason for me to consider a change. I do find myself spending time in post to get the last bit that I can out of the files, but that's true for me with the D3 and the DMR as well. Here's a crop from a 3/4 body shot with minimal pp (i'll clone out the hair shadow before I call it "final"). I do wish I hadn't paid the price of being an early adopter but, as they say, that's a sunk cost

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    Re: looks like the Hy6 is no more....

    Nice shot

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    Re: looks like the Hy6 is no more....

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    David,

    I'm quite happy with the results I get from my e75LV/HY6 kit and honestly don't feel I'd be better off with anything else out there. Not saying I'd be worse off, but no reason for me to consider a change. I do find myself spending time in post to get the last bit that I can out of the files, but that's true for me with the D3 and the DMR as well. Here's a crop from a 3/4 body shot with minimal pp (i'll clone out the hair shadow before I call it "final"). I do wish I hadn't paid the price of being an early adopter but, as they say, that's a sunk cost
    Wonderful skin tones David.

    I know how you feel about sunk costs having bought my H3DII-39 just a month before Hassy cut the prices to a level where I can never recoup my investment.

    So keep on using that puppy because the images are wonderful. They didn't get worse just because you lost some money, that's for sure!

    Best

    Woody

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    Re: looks like the Hy6 is no more....

    Thanks Woody and robmac. Hard to take a bad photo of a girl that pretty

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