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Thread: Leica in a more trouble than really known ?

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    Leica in a more trouble than really known ?

    It is a German link, but I found it quite interesting to read, especially some of the quotes. (link http://www.photopresse.de/content/view/5758/2/)


    I really hope Leica pulls a large white rabbit out of the head on th 9/9/9. A good selling rabbit ;-)

    I mean for example 50 Preorders for a S2 System in the US, well that does not sound to much. Especially that it does not mean all 50 will finally pay for it.

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    Re: Leica in a more trouble than really known ?

    5o pre-orders from USA for a high end camera system that hardly anybody have tried, and few have actually seen, doesn't sound too bad. I wouldn't even order a G11 without trying it first.

    It's interesting also that they issue a two year work guarantee for the employees. This is in a situation where several old, traditional German companies have been forced to close down or reduce staff drastically. If they deliver as promised in a week's time, they should be all set to penetrate new markets. An M9 without major flaws will probably sell much better than the M8, unless the price is totally unreasonable.

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    Re: Leica in a more trouble than really known ?

    What I would like to know. Where are all these facts about the S2, where are REAL WORLD Images ? I though they should be here next week or soon, but that was closer to 4 weeks ago ^^

    Well on the other Hand as long as I get my FF m9, I'm happy.

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    Re: Leica in a more trouble than really known ?

    Actually these are not new infos, they for sure were and are in trouble and what the future will bring is even more unknown

    I would hope that their new products will be successful, but honestly I doubt.

    1) S System far too late introduced

    2) R system cancelled and no new products so far in this area

    3) M9 still not available and far too long cycle between M8 and M9

    So they still behave like an old world company in today's dynamic and demanding markets. I love their products and I love their way to take time to develop, but maybe this is no longer possible in today's world.

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    Re: Leica in a more trouble than really known ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    far too long cycle between M8 and M9
    What do you mean with this? There was almost 3 years between 1Ds Mark II and Mark III, and there was closer to 4 years between D2x and D3x...
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    Re: Leica in a more trouble than really known ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    I mean for example 50 Preorders for a S2 System in the US, well that does not sound to much. Especially that it does not mean all 50 will finally pay for it.
    Wow! I didn't know that Guy already ordered an S2....


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    Re: Leica in a more trouble than really known ?

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    What do you mean with this? There was almost 3 years between 1Ds Mark II and Mark III, and there was closer to 4 years between D2x and D3x...
    This cannot be compared!

    A M9 FF was (is) needed already since more than 2 years. A M8 was needed already in 2003 or 2004. These are the real facts!

    Now Leica managed (mismanaged actually as we all know) to bring the M8 only in late 2006. This was already 2 years late. And thus the cycle for this camera was already half way passed when it reached the market.

    Sorry Carsten, but in today's times the business runs differenty from what many Leica fans and lovers are (were) used to. And also Leica has to learn this, - as we obviously see meanwhile by hard facts. Even the most generous investors like Dr. Kaufmann need to stop at some point in time, because money is not infinite.

    For me there were already all these bad signs after the enthusiastic launch of the S System at last PK 2008. They abandoned the R system, Kaufmann steped back and handed over to Spiller, they delayed the S System, they broke with Phase One for processing SW support etc. etc.

    All this together seems to be the final consequences of running out of money and the need for the Kaufmann group to focus on different things.

    And finally keep in mind that I am a Leica gear slut and lover, so for me these are really bad news

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    Re: Leica in a more trouble than really known ?

    Quote Originally Posted by kdphotography View Post
    Wow! I didn't know that Guy already ordered an S2....

    I want a P40+ but looking at the S2 just in case. Actually I want a P40+ pretty bad but just waiting to test out a S2 and see the launch on it first. Leica has to convince this old dog a new puppy is the answer
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Leica in a more trouble than really known ?

    1) it is not that unusaul that companies negotiate with the unions these days in order to safe cost. So I would not draw too many conclusions from this article.

    2) I am surprized that many people complain about products coming to market too late but than they dont buy existing products but rather wait for future products.
    Instead of trying to get things working people complain about the weak points. I would have liked an M8 earlier, but I was glad that it appeared at all. Today I use it all the time and I believe it is one of the cameras / systems which delievers very very good IQ. I prefer the output to that of the d3x (of course its a rangefinder system with limitations), I dont see anything which I could do with my M6 but not with the M8, with the exception that there is a focal length multiplier (but then in film times there was no wate) and it doesnt take tri-x or kodakchrome, maybe a little less weather resistent.
    If the M9 is even better - great!
    If there was no M9 announced and if I did not have an M8 I would buy a M8 without hesistating.

    Looking at images from the M8 I allways think to myself, wow, not bad for an image made with a totally flawed, 2 years too late camera.

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    Re: Leica in a more trouble than really known ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    A M9 FF was (is) needed already since more than 2 years. A M8 was needed already in 2003 or 2004. These are the real facts!
    These are opinions, not facts. You stated that there was too much time between M8 and M9, and this I have disputed, with good examples. Your opinion that the M8 was late is entirely separate.
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    Re: Leica in a more trouble than really known ?

    Dear Peter,

    I really like your endless bullet-points of hard facts and your exclamation marks in every other sentence. And I understand that Leica is too slow for you and you know how to run business in the new age. And I just hope that you will feel much less frustrated and angry after 090909

    I have a question:
    You wrote:
    << All this together seems to be the final consequences of running out of money and the need for the Kaufmann group to focus on different things.>>
    Can you please provide us with a source of this info (maybe in Austrian media or any other confirmation of your "hard facts"?)
    Yevgeny
    Moscow

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    Re: Leica in a more trouble than really known ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yevgeny NP View Post
    << All this together seems to be the final consequences of running out of money and the need for the Kaufmann group to focus on different things.>>
    Can you please provide us with a source of this info (maybe in Austrian media or any other confirmation of your "hard facts"?)
    Yevgeny
    Moscow
    Just look at the original article which was referenced in this thread. If this does not tell you that they are running out of money then what do you conclude from this?

    Be ensured that I myself would really hate that Leica goes down, but for me these are all very unfortunate signs.

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    Re: Leica in a more trouble than really known ?

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    These are opinions, not facts. You stated that there was too much time between M8 and M9, and this I have disputed, with good examples. Your opinion that the M8 was late is entirely separate.
    Well of course, these are opinions, but the facts are that far more potential customers are thinking that way than customers who still buy the M8.

    And so an opinion becomes a fact

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    Re: Leica in a more trouble than really known ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Well of course, these are opinions, but the facts are that far more potential customers are thinking that way than customers who still buy the M8.

    And so an opinion becomes a fact
    Most of what is being said on this and other forums prove you wrong. Photographers are awaiting a full frame M-camera from Leica with enthusiasm. If it's launched and it's good, it will sell, just like the "too late" full frame cameras from Nikon sell. These are not low-end consumer products, where fast product cycles are the rule. No high-end cameras that I know of are known for their bleeding edge technology and fast turnaround times. For professionals and photo enthusiasts, getting a good product is much more important than getting it yesterday.

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    Re: Leica in a more trouble than really known ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Most of what is being said on this and other forums prove you wrong. Photographers are awaiting a full frame M-camera from Leica with enthusiasm. If it's launched and it's good, it will sell, just like the "too late" full frame cameras from Nikon sell. These are not low-end consumer products, where fast product cycles are the rule. No high-end cameras that I know of are known for their bleeding edge technology and fast turnaround times. For professionals and photo enthusiasts, getting a good product is much more important than getting it yesterday.
    This may be true, but what if Leica has run out of money by then?

    Then it may be right what you say but unfortunately the vendor has disappeared meanwhile because of insolvency.

    I just think of what happened to the Hy6 etc, definitely a great product, system etc, but somehow too late, too less marketing - I do not know what but it did not get the right success.

    Keep in mind that Nikon has some other great income sources with their consumer cameras and low and DSLRs, so this kept them liquid. What does Leica have here? Almost nothing except their Dlux and Clux lines and these are again not their own products and never can bring them the revenue they bring for the OEM. They only have high end stuff from their direct production. And this most times comes late. And only a few buy it.

    BTW just tell me what Leica equipment you own or owned? My list would be (unfortunately) pretty complete WRT M and R system. Ad YES, I am waiting desperately for a FF M. But will this allow them to survive now? I doubt.

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    Re: Leica in a more trouble than really known ?

    Leica lost 4.8 million last year, IIRC. Herr Doktor Kaufmann is worth several billion. If Leica shuts down it won't be because they ran out of money, but because Herr Doktor Kaufmann chose it that way. There is passion in it for him, and he has patience, but this is of course not infinite. It is absurd to suggest that Leica is running out of money. Herr Spiller is trying to balance the bottom line, nothing more. The massive investment that has gone into Leica in the last couple of years is potentially going to place them in a good position to benefit from a recovering economy. Let's wait and see and not turn any further opinions into "facts".
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    Re: Leica in a more trouble than really known ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Just look at the original article which was referenced in this thread. If this does not tell you that they are running out of money then what do you conclude from this?

    Be ensured that I myself would really hate that Leica goes down, but for me these are all very unfortunate signs.
    I would conclude that Leica negotiates with the union in order to save some cost and stay competitive. Thats what many companies do today. They also seem to guarantee for at least one year to not fire anybody so I would assume they expect a good load of work.
    Anything else would be more like speculation and not conclusion IMO.

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Leica in a more trouble than really known ?

    BTW my prediction for the 9th is:

    FF M9 with 18 to 21mp and
    Micro 4/3rds or something similar which uses M glass but has a sensor that can deal with the edges of M wides properly and which shoots video with M glass.

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    Re: Leica in a more trouble than really known ?

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Leica lost 4.8 million last year, IIRC. Herr Doktor Kaufmann is worth several billion. If Leica shuts down it won't be because they ran out of money, but because Herr Doktor Kaufmann chose it that way. There is passion in it for him, and he has patience, but this is of course not infinite. It is absurd to suggest that Leica is running out of money. Herr Spiller is trying to balance the bottom line, nothing more. The massive investment that has gone into Leica in the last couple of years is potentially going to place them in a good position to benefit from a recovering economy. Let's wait and see and not turn any further opinions into "facts".
    Well I do hope like you Carsten - you can be sure

    Anyway let's forget about this for the moment ands see what really comes on the 9th and then hope that Leica can deliver.

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    Re: Leica in a more trouble than really known ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Anyway let's forget about this for the moment ands see what really comes on the 9th and then hope that Leica can deliver.
    That would be a good idea.

    Don't forget the market for a full frame M9 is bigger than the M8 market. Think about how many posts we've read about from people who wouldn't buy an M8 because it wasn't full frame.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Leica in a more trouble than really known ?

    If the M9 is priced pretty good by Leica standards it will sell very good. Just no IR filters and FF will get people to buy and if they can gain a stop ISO at 1250 clean . Look out
    BTW they should be able to get a clean 1250 with the existing 6.8 micron sensor. Let's face it I have that today with my P30+
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Leica in a more trouble than really known ?

    The way some people go on you would think that Leica only made cameras and it’s what they depended on to survive. If they pulled out of the camera market tomorrow would they survive? Yes. Just look in any medical or research lab and you will see why, it’s because they make the best optical systems in the world.

    http://www.leica-microsystems.com/

    Don’t forget they also make some of the best spotting scopes in the world as well just look at what bird and wildlife watchers are using.

    http://en.leica-camera.com/sport_opt...otting_scopes/

    Would a bad S2 launch and sale along with no M8 replacement spell the end of Leica? No, they have other areas of business to keep them going.

    David

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    Re: Leica in a more trouble than really known ?

    Hate to be a bit of a wet blanket on this Leica stuff, but has it occurred to folks that on the 090909 big event that they may be doing something a bit less lofty than folks are predicting?....such as introducing a new 4/3rds camera, noting the roll-out plans for the S2 and maybe only officially announcing the M9 and its future delivery date, much like they did with the S2. Leica announced the S2 quite a long time before they are going to be delivering it. Not trying to dampen M9-wanter enthusiasm, but just looking at both what may be practical and backed up by some Leica history.

    LJ

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    Re: Leica in a more trouble than really known ?

    If they pulled out of the camera market tomorrow would they survive? Yes. Just look in any medical or research lab and you will see why, it’s because they make the best optical systems in the world.
    *********
    I think that they are three separate companies.

    " In 1996 Leica Camera separated from the Leica Group and became a publicly held company. In 1998 the Leica group split into 2 independent units: Leica Microsystems[2] and Leica Geosystems."
    wiki

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    Re: Leica in a more trouble than really known ?

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    Hate to be a bit of a wet blanket on this Leica stuff, but has it occurred to folks that on the 090909 big event that they may be doing something a bit less lofty than folks are predicting?....such as introducing a new 4/3rds camera, noting the roll-out plans for the S2 and maybe only officially announcing the M9 and its future delivery date, much like they did with the S2. Leica announced the S2 quite a long time before they are going to be delivering it. Not trying to dampen M9-wanter enthusiasm, but just looking at both what may be practical and backed up by some Leica history.

    LJ
    LJ,
    if the new camera were truly a future event, I would be shocked. Why would they schedule in store events all across the world for that day? They would simply leave it at a webcast. I'm not getting ahead of myself but I think you will be surprised. I for one believe the new camera is ready to go and I would not be shocked if a few people walked out the dealer's door with them on 9/9.

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    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Leica in a more trouble than really known ?

    Quote Originally Posted by David A View Post
    The way some people go on you would think that Leica only made cameras and itís what they depended on to survive.
    That's because they do!

    Leica Camera, Leica Geosystems and Leica Microsystems are 3 totally separate companies.

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    Re: Leica in a more trouble than really known ?

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    LJ,
    if the new camera were truly a future event, I would be shocked. Why would they schedule in store events all across the world for that day? They would simply leave it at a webcast. I'm not getting ahead of myself but I think you will be surprised. I for one believe the new camera is ready to go and I would not be shocked if a few people walked out the dealer's door with them on 9/9.
    Terry,
    I understand that sentiment, but at the same time, I would not be surprised if they show the new M9 as a prototype that is nearing completion, with planned delivery next year. For all the folks salivating to get their hands on an M9 next week, I hope Leica is able to deliver that way. I am just not sure it is going to happen. The S2 is not even shipping yet, though that may be the other part of the story.....start shipping the S2 on 090909, and announce the M9 for near-term delivery, plus have some 4/3rds camera ready to ship also. Seems like plenty for a big announcement. Will just have to wait to see. Not having any images from the S2 yet, nor the formal announcement, specs, and images from an M9 just seems a bit odd for such major products.

    LJ

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    Re: Leica in a more trouble than really known ?

    My opinion is that plenty of the photos from and reviews of the S2 will be released on 9/9/9 along with a firm shipping date or actual product. The wall of silence by reviewers and Leica indicate that Leica's non-disclosure agreements are pretty strident. Without that wall of silence, I'd be more concerned. My thinking is that Leica has implemented a buttoned down release schedule that has put the camera in influential hands before the announcement date ... after the 9th we'll see a release of the information that has been gathered over the past several months in a wave of PR.

    I'm impressed with how they've managed the whole release process ... I get the impression that someone is minding the PR/marketing store for the first time in a number of years.

    Kurt

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    Re: Leica in a more trouble than really known ?

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    Hate to be a bit of a wet blanket on this Leica stuff, but has it occurred to folks that on the 090909 big event that they may be doing something a bit less lofty than folks are predicting?....such as introducing a new 4/3rds camera, noting the roll-out plans for the S2 and maybe only officially announcing the M9 and its future delivery date, much like they did with the S2. Leica announced the S2 quite a long time before they are going to be delivering it. Not trying to dampen M9-wanter enthusiasm, but just looking at both what may be practical and backed up by some Leica history.

    LJ
    The announcing of the M9 and a its future delivery date would be just fine. Then we would know it was coming and the road map for fulfillment.

    Nothing that many hi-tech companies do.

    "The market wants a Leica to be a Leica: the inheritor of tradition, the subject of lore, and indisputably a mark of status to own."
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    Re: Leica in a more trouble than really known ?

    It is possible that the M9 will only be announced, but I don't expect that it will be far away. Already this spring they were testing it, according to my sources, and announcing it will kill off sales of the M8/M8.2, not something they would do lightly, nor too early.
    Carsten - Website

  31. #31
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    Re: Leica in a more trouble than really known ?

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    It is possible that the M9 will only be announced, but I don't expect that it will be far away. Already this spring they were testing it, according to my sources, and announcing it will kill off sales of the M8/M8.2, not something they would do lightly, nor too early.
    perhaps, but I don't see why would they have any sentiments for M8.2 with all of its short comings if M9 is sound and ready.

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    Re: Leica in a more trouble than really known ?

    Not sentiments, income. They won't announce the followup until it is almost ready, to avoid cannibalizing their current income.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Leica in a more trouble than really known ?

    I doubt Leica is as uninformed as you portray them Peter.

    I also doubt Leica hinged their future on the S2 alone. Even years ago, it was clear that Medium Format Digital was clearly a low volume, over-crowded segment of photography ... which is now getting thinned out even faster by the disappointing world economy ... and 35mm DSLRs are very well developed ... thus the in-between S2.

    That leaves the M to generate immediate sales volume and cash.

    If they only announce the M9 on 9/9/09, so what? It will most surely serve to keep people who are waiting for a FF M out of the market rather than spending their cash on something else.

    I think the M9 will be a serious purchase for many people. My bet is that it'll be $8,000. maybe more. IMO, this would argue for keeping the M8 in the line-up for awhile @ half the M9 price (or smaller digital camera using a M mount) ... so more than just the well healed can use a digital rangefinder.

  34. #34
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    Re: Leica in a more trouble than really known ?

    Creating a buzz is good marketing wether they have new models for sale or just announcements they got people talking about Leica right before photo expo in NY and S2's launch.

  35. #35
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    Re: Leica in a more trouble than really known ?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    ... so more than just the well healed can use a digital rangefinder.
    When has Leica ever given a kack about anybody other than the well-heeled?

    The video did say they'll be introducing "a collection of products... for the novice and professional alike" -- which suggests a range of more- and less-complex offerings. I still suspect, though, that even the "novice" products will be targeted at the uber-affluent novice.

    After all, the voice-over said that Leica cameras "enable excess to life's hidden stories." Yeah, I know, you thought he said access, but I don't think so...

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    Re: Leica in a more trouble than really known ?

    I think they will show the S2 and image samples and we will get firm release dates.

    I also think (hope) that they at least announce the M9, maybe they show a prototype. And I hope the M9 will be FF and go up to ISO3200 at least with reasonable results, which means it can do ISO1600 with perfect results.

    Having said that I do not see the M8.2 market disappear, as both cameras (M9 and M8.2) will be at totally different price levels and so both will sell, especially if they bring down the M8.2 prices a bit.

    They also might show the new camera being able to take existing R glass, they promised to bring a solution and this would be a relief for the R club.

    I really hope they do not get into 4/3 again and especially do not sell rebadged cameras from Pana or Oly. An also not waste too much time in developing lenses for this system.

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    Re: Leica in a more trouble than really known ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    I really hope they do not get into 4/3 again and especially do not sell rebadged cameras from Pana or Oly. An also not waste too much time in developing lenses for this system.
    Call your local Leica rep and ask them about the rebadged cameras....Leica does very, very well indeed with these.

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    Re: Leica in a more trouble than really known ?

    It is 100% sure that the m9 will be out right after the announcement on the 9/9/9. There is NO doubt about that. Why you ask ? So simple, Leica has only one year to release the M10 on the 10/10/10, OK a little bit more than a year. :-P

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    Re: Leica in a more trouble than really known ?

    I believe that Leica has stated on the record somewhere that 4/3 isn't interesting to them. There are supposed to be two major announcements on 9/9/9, but I don't know what the other one would be.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Leica in a more trouble than really known ?

    Well that is true, BUT and this is a BIG BUT, 4/3 especially micro 4/3 is a lot more successful than many thought. I couldn't believe that Leica would not take the offer from Pan to use their design, glue a red dot on the front and sell the same thing for a couple 100 bugs more. There is no easier way to make money for Leica.

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    Re: Leica in a more trouble than really known ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    Well that is true, BUT and this is a BIG BUT, 4/3 especially micro 4/3 is a lot more successful than many thought. I couldn't believe that Leica would not take the offer from Pan to use their design, glue a red dot on the front and sell the same thing for a couple 100 bugs more. There is no easier way to make money for Leica.
    That way would be ok, it would bring in money but not cost too many resources.

    Otherwise involvement in another system would be just stupid in my opinion.

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    Re: Leica in a more trouble than really known ?

    Well... it is not only about money, but also about protecting your image. The more Leica rebadges, the less the Leica brand means. They seem to have found a precarious balance with compacts, but trying to move that strategy upmarket is risky, especially since there is always one company which can deliver an equivalent camera at a cheaper price: Panasonic.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Leica in a more trouble than really known ?

    On the other hand Leica wouldn't be here anymore if they would not rebadge cameras. It was one of the main aspects they survived so long.

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    Re: Leica in a more trouble than really known ?

    +1 They generate more revenue from compacts than 'system' cameras - and the annual sales on the compact side fell 'just' 10% vs. 27% for system cameras. Either of those two categories are also roughly 2x what they recognize in sport optic revenue. Pride's a great thing, but revenue and new users are more important, especially in this economy.

    That said, while sales & earnings are interesting accounting statistics (given the wonderful world of GAAP, revenue recognition policies and line-item P&L and Balance Sheet 'sculpting'), cash(flow) is THE king-maker (or breaker).

    As a reference for the mildly bored:

    http://www.dgap.de/news/adhoc/leica-...830_568339.htm

    The full monty for the truly bored- Fiscal 2009 Annual Report

    http://www.corporate.leica-camera.co...009/index.html

    Also page 71 (end of auditor's note) in above
    Last edited by robmac; 2nd September 2009 at 12:51.

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    Re: Leica in a more trouble than really known ?

    I just received this in my email here

    is this the Full-Frame 18-Megapixel Leica M9 and Mysterious Leica X1?

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    Re: Leica in a more trouble than really known ?

    The X1 looks very fake. The M9 looks better, but I am not convinced at all that it is real, and not just a Photoshop job on the numeral 8 of an M8.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Leica in a more trouble than really known ?

    Both fake, and a pretty bad one. You only know how bad if you look at the real thing next to you :-P

  48. #48
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    Re: Leica in a more trouble than really known ?

    Hello All.

    New member here. Avid amateur and Leica fan amongst others but haven't gone digital RF yet and probably won't anytime soon simply because I won't be able to afford an M9 and wouldn't want less than full frame (I like 50mm lenses above all). But I do have a Panasonic G1 which enables me to mess with all sorts of lenses and I enjoy it immensely despite the lack of a proper normal lens. If any of you frequent ebay you may recognize my name as I'm a pretty active seller of nice used equipment, Leica and otherwise. I like to think of myself as one of the good guys on ebay. But I'm not posting here to plug myself. Just wanted to give a little background with my first post.

    Here's a prediction out of left field. Someone above mentioned that Leica would fail to exist if they didn't rebadge cameras. I don't think that's entirely true. On the flip side of that Panasonic would not have the success they have today were it not for Leica, particularly the LX-3. Having a fast Leica lens on front did a lot to boost the sales of that camera from day one. And the D-Lux 4 has done very well too. I don't know just how interwoven the two companies are but it seems to me that they are more aligned than Leica and Minolta were in the early 70s. And I think what it on their horizon now has a much better chance of commanding a serious segment of the market than the R3/Minolta XE-7 and CL/CLE cameras did 30+ years ago. The time is ripe. Leaving aside the S2, the full frame M9 and GF-1 are going to be popular. Leica is producing micro 4/3 lenses. A macro was just announced by Panasonic as was a fast 20mm lens for the GF-1 (I don't know if Leica was involved in its design but I suspect they were). It seems pretty obvious that there will be a rebadged GF-1, perhaps with a different fast lens or perhaps with the same lens and we'll find out it is for certain a Leica design. My thinking is that, as the two companies are working together, Panasonic won the coin toss (or flexed their muscle) and got to release the GF-1 before 9/9/09 when Leica will introduce their version. But, and this is the left field part, Leica will get to introduce the successor to the LX-3/D-Lux 4 on the 9th with Panasonic following up shortly thereafter.

    As to whether or not Leica is in trouble I don't know but I think they'd be foolish not to take advantage of the success of the micro 4/3 system and the LX-3/D-Lux 4 both of which they already have a major hand in. If they don't I think they will be in serious trouble despite the M9 and S2 and continue to lose market share as they have since the advent of the SLR (further compounded more recently by the likes of Cosina and the new lenses from Zeiss). If they do I think they will regain a firm footing and reclaim some of what they've lost. And they'll have the capital to keep making machines like the M9 and S2 that have no equal even if they have the attention of only a small part of the market.

    I'll probably eat my words in a week but what the heck.

    Bert Furnari

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    Re: Leica in a more trouble than really known ?

    Quote Originally Posted by frendakfurnari View Post

    I'll probably eat my words in a week but what the heck.

    Bert Furnari
    Well I hope you don't have to but I'm sure they'll be as delicious then as they are now! Your predictions are verryyy interesting!

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    Re: Leica in a more trouble than really known ?

    Though I'm stayin' out of this frenzy of prognostication, I must say Bert, that the image conjured up of the CEOs of companies hunched over a table and tossing a coin for announcement priorities has me chuckling out loud.

    But, I can't come up with a better way for the parties to resolve stuff like that!
    Roger
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