Leica in a more trouble than really known ?

[Christopher]

It is a German link, but I found it quite interesting to read, especially some of the quotes. (link http://www.photopresse.de/content/view/5758/2/)


I really hope Leica pulls a large white rabbit out of the head on th 9/9/9. A good selling rabbit ;-)

I mean for example 50 Preorders for a S2 System in the US, well that does not sound to much. Especially that it does not mean all 50 will finally pay for it.

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

5o pre-orders from USA for a high end camera system that hardly anybody have tried, and few have actually seen, doesn't sound too bad. I wouldn't even order a G11 without trying it first.

It's interesting also that they issue a two year work guarantee for the employees. This is in a situation where several old, traditional German companies have been forced to close down or reduce staff drastically. If they deliver as promised in a week's time, they should be all set to penetrate new markets. An M9 without major flaws will probably sell much better than the M8, unless the price is totally unreasonable.

 

[Christopher]

What I would like to know. Where are all these facts about the S2, where are REAL WORLD Images ? I though they should be here next week or soon, but that was closer to 4 weeks ago ^^

Well on the other Hand as long as I get my FF m9, I'm happy.

 

[ptomsu]

Actually these are not new infos, they for sure were and are in trouble and what the future will bring is even more unknown

I would hope that their new products will be successful, but honestly I doubt.

1) S System far too late introduced

2) R system cancelled and no new products so far in this area

3) M9 still not available and far too long cycle between M8 and M9

So they still behave like an old world company in today's dynamic and demanding markets. I love their products and I love their way to take time to develop, but maybe this is no longer possible in today's world.

 

[carstenw]

far too long cycle between M8 and M9

What do you mean with this? There was almost 3 years between 1Ds Mark II and Mark III, and there was closer to 4 years between D2x and D3x...

 

[kdphotography]

I mean for example 50 Preorders for a S2 System in the US, well that does not sound to much. Especially that it does not mean all 50 will finally pay for it.

Wow! I didn't know that Guy already ordered an S2....

:ROTFL:

 

[ptomsu]

What do you mean with this? There was almost 3 years between 1Ds Mark II and Mark III, and there was closer to 4 years between D2x and D3x...

This cannot be compared!

A M9 FF was (is) needed already since more than 2 years. A M8 was needed already in 2003 or 2004. These are the real facts!

Now Leica managed (mismanaged actually as we all know) to bring the M8 only in late 2006. This was already 2 years late. And thus the cycle for this camera was already half way passed when it reached the market.

Sorry Carsten, but in today's times the business runs differenty from what many Leica fans and lovers are (were) used to. And also Leica has to learn this, - as we obviously see meanwhile by hard facts. Even the most generous investors like Dr. Kaufmann need to stop at some point in time, because money is not infinite.

For me there were already all these bad signs after the enthusiastic launch of the S System at last PK 2008. They abandoned the R system, Kaufmann steped back and handed over to Spiller, they delayed the S System, they broke with Phase One for processing SW support etc. etc.

All this together seems to be the final consequences of running out of money and the need for the Kaufmann group to focus on different things.

And finally keep in mind that I am a Leica gear slut and lover, so for me these are really bad news :banghead:

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Wow! I didn't know that Guy already ordered an S2....

:ROTFL:

I want a P40+ but looking at the S2 just in case. Actually I want a P40+ pretty bad but just waiting to test out a S2 and see the launch on it first. Leica has to convince this old dog a new puppy is the answer :ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL:

 

[Paratom]

1) it is not that unusaul that companies negotiate with the unions these days in order to safe cost. So I would not draw too many conclusions from this article.

2) I am surprized that many people complain about products coming to market too late but than they dont buy existing products but rather wait for future products.
Instead of trying to get things working people complain about the weak points. I would have liked an M8 earlier, but I was glad that it appeared at all. Today I use it all the time and I believe it is one of the cameras / systems which delievers very very good IQ. I prefer the output to that of the d3x (of course its a rangefinder system with limitations), I dont see anything which I could do with my M6 but not with the M8, with the exception that there is a focal length multiplier (but then in film times there was no wate) and it doesnt take tri-x or kodakchrome, maybe a little less weather resistent.
If the M9 is even better - great!
If there was no M9 announced and if I did not have an M8 I would buy a M8 without hesistating.

Looking at images from the M8 I allways think to myself, wow, not bad for an image made with a totally flawed, 2 years too late camera.

 

[carstenw]

A M9 FF was (is) needed already since more than 2 years. A M8 was needed already in 2003 or 2004. These are the real facts!

These are opinions, not facts. You stated that there was too much time between M8 and M9, and this I have disputed, with good examples. Your opinion that the M8 was late is entirely separate.

 

[Yevgeny NP]

Dear Peter,

I really like your endless bullet-points of hard facts and your exclamation marks in every other sentence. And I understand that Leica is too slow for you and you know how to run business in the new age. And I just hope that you will feel much less frustrated and angry after 090909

I have a question:
You wrote:
<< All this together seems to be the final consequences of running out of money and the need for the Kaufmann group to focus on different things.>>
Can you please provide us with a source of this info (maybe in Austrian media or any other confirmation of your "hard facts"?)
Yevgeny
Moscow

 

[ptomsu]

<< All this together seems to be the final consequences of running out of money and the need for the Kaufmann group to focus on different things.>>
Can you please provide us with a source of this info (maybe in Austrian media or any other confirmation of your "hard facts"?)
Yevgeny
Moscow

Just look at the original article which was referenced in this thread. If this does not tell you that they are running out of money then what do you conclude from this?

Be ensured that I myself would really hate that Leica goes down, but for me these are all very unfortunate signs.

 

[ptomsu]

These are opinions, not facts. You stated that there was too much time between M8 and M9, and this I have disputed, with good examples. Your opinion that the M8 was late is entirely separate.

Well of course, these are opinions, but the facts are that far more potential customers are thinking that way than customers who still buy the M8.

And so an opinion becomes a fact

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

Well of course, these are opinions, but the facts are that far more potential customers are thinking that way than customers who still buy the M8.

And so an opinion becomes a fact

Most of what is being said on this and other forums prove you wrong. Photographers are awaiting a full frame M-camera from Leica with enthusiasm. If it's launched and it's good, it will sell, just like the "too late" full frame cameras from Nikon sell. These are not low-end consumer products, where fast product cycles are the rule. No high-end cameras that I know of are known for their bleeding edge technology and fast turnaround times. For professionals and photo enthusiasts, getting a good product is much more important than getting it yesterday.

 

[ptomsu]

Most of what is being said on this and other forums prove you wrong. Photographers are awaiting a full frame M-camera from Leica with enthusiasm. If it's launched and it's good, it will sell, just like the "too late" full frame cameras from Nikon sell. These are not low-end consumer products, where fast product cycles are the rule. No high-end cameras that I know of are known for their bleeding edge technology and fast turnaround times. For professionals and photo enthusiasts, getting a good product is much more important than getting it yesterday.

This may be true, but what if Leica has run out of money by then?

Then it may be right what you say but unfortunately the vendor has disappeared meanwhile because of insolvency.

I just think of what happened to the Hy6 etc, definitely a great product, system etc, but somehow too late, too less marketing - I do not know what but it did not get the right success.

Keep in mind that Nikon has some other great income sources with their consumer cameras and low and DSLRs, so this kept them liquid. What does Leica have here? Almost nothing except their Dlux and Clux lines and these are again not their own products and never can bring them the revenue they bring for the OEM. They only have high end stuff from their direct production. And this most times comes late. And only a few buy it.

BTW just tell me what Leica equipment you own or owned? My list would be (unfortunately) pretty complete WRT M and R system. Ad YES, I am waiting desperately for a FF M. But will this allow them to survive now? I doubt.

 

[carstenw]

Leica lost 4.8 million last year, IIRC. Herr Doktor Kaufmann is worth several billion. If Leica shuts down it won't be because they ran out of money, but because Herr Doktor Kaufmann chose it that way. There is passion in it for him, and he has patience, but this is of course not infinite. It is absurd to suggest that Leica is running out of money. Herr Spiller is trying to balance the bottom line, nothing more. The massive investment that has gone into Leica in the last couple of years is potentially going to place them in a good position to benefit from a recovering economy. Let's wait and see and not turn any further opinions into "facts".

 

[Paratom]

Just look at the original article which was referenced in this thread. If this does not tell you that they are running out of money then what do you conclude from this?

Be ensured that I myself would really hate that Leica goes down, but for me these are all very unfortunate signs.

I would conclude that Leica negotiates with the union in order to save some cost and stay competitive. Thats what many companies do today. They also seem to guarantee for at least one year to not fire anybody so I would assume they expect a good load of work.
Anything else would be more like speculation and not conclusion IMO.

 

[tashley]

BTW my prediction for the 9th is:

FF M9 with 18 to 21mp and
Micro 4/3rds or something similar which uses M glass but has a sensor that can deal with the edges of M wides properly and which shoots video with M glass.

 

[ptomsu]

Leica lost 4.8 million last year, IIRC. Herr Doktor Kaufmann is worth several billion. If Leica shuts down it won't be because they ran out of money, but because Herr Doktor Kaufmann chose it that way. There is passion in it for him, and he has patience, but this is of course not infinite. It is absurd to suggest that Leica is running out of money. Herr Spiller is trying to balance the bottom line, nothing more. The massive investment that has gone into Leica in the last couple of years is potentially going to place them in a good position to benefit from a recovering economy. Let's wait and see and not turn any further opinions into "facts".

Well I do hope like you Carsten - you can be sure

Anyway let's forget about this for the moment ands see what really comes on the 9th and then hope that Leica can deliver.

 

[Terry]

Anyway let's forget about this for the moment ands see what really comes on the 9th and then hope that Leica can deliver.

That would be a good idea.

Don't forget the market for a full frame M9 is bigger than the M8 market. Think about how many posts we've read about from people who wouldn't buy an M8 because it wasn't full frame.