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Thread: Nikon D300/M8 test

  1. #51
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    Re: Nikon D300/M8 test

    Guy,

    I'm working on processing the files from my D3 and the shoot I have been doing these last two days.

    The D3 files look really flat, lacking both sharpness, detail, micro contrast, and tonal range in both Aperture and LightRoom. The difference in Capture NX is pretty amazing.

    Can I suggest that you really take a second look at any of the Nikon files in Capture NX. I would bet that you will see quite a bit of difference.

    To me, my D3 files in Capture NX compare about equally to the M8 at the lower ISO values. As soon as we hit ISO 640 on the M8, the D3 starts to really pull ahead.

    Just my $.02.

    Good information so far, I just think the results are really negatively biased on the Nikon by using LightRoom.

    Best,

    Ray

  2. #52
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    Re: Nikon D300/M8 test

    Ray I don't think there negatively biased at all. I find nothing special honestly about NX the defaults are really the same even more yellow . Here look at this

    LR
    NX
    C1
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  3. #53
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    Re: Nikon D300/M8 test

    Honestly if anything C1 looks the best . No yellow in the trees and look the most neutral
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  4. #54
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    Re: Nikon D300/M8 test

    Here are some examples.

    I was shooting the D3 with the 24-70/2.8 and a friends D300 with 70-300/VR at the same time. When the stage started, I was using the wide on the D3 then letting it sling as I ran with the shooter then used the D300 for the tele.

    I want you guys to notice that I did not have the 70-200/2.8 on the D300, this was only the consumer level zoom that I borrowed as a backup along with the D300.

    Tomorrow I'll post some of the D3 shots but thought that I would include this one here as it is from the D300.

    The first on is from LightRoom at defaults, the second one is Capture NX at defaults, the third is a crop from LightRoom, the fourth is the the crop from Capture NX.

    To me, I see a major difference in detail and tonal range. You will also notice a slight color difference between the two, and once again Capture NX is much truer to the actual color. I think that you will also see LightRoom is really not protecting the highlights as well.

    Best,

    Ray

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    Re: Nikon D300/M8 test

    There is a lot of yellow in both LR and NX
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Nikon D300/M8 test

    Ray what I am seeing is a difference in contrast. LR is spread out more in the highlights. I have noticed the default at NX is sharper. Question is it really at no sharpening. We know C1 off does not mean off unless you hit the off. Also not sure what tag it might be bringing in from camera. It may say off but who knows what Nikon truly is doing on that. We have to be careful because they can be sneaking tags in that you think are off. This is there software and they control that , not saying there being sneaky per say but there profiles are there's. The nice thing about NX is it can bring in the tags as others cannot so I have to question what Nikon is truly doing. It's a nice program no question but I think folks get carried away with hitting a button and it does this or that. C1 and LR there are no buttons you need to push it around
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Nikon D300/M8 test

    Look back at the building LR is giving you higher highlights , NX tones that down quite a bit and C1 rides the middle road. Same in your examples, now is Nikons profiles to bring down the highlights to protect from blowing in NX. I bet they are. LOL Or a million people would complain. Canon does the same thing to be honest they drop there profiles to protect from blowing in there camera's.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Nikon D300/M8 test

    Here is the photo processed through Capture One Pro 3.7.8 at defaults and the same crop.

    I agree on the color being best in Capture One, but still think that Capture NX wins in all other respects.

    The advantage in Capture NX is that I can also fix these colors and leave it as a preset for all the images.

  9. #59
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    Re: Nikon D300/M8 test

    Lets try again

    LR
    NX
    C1
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    Re: Nikon D300/M8 test

    Same thing the highlights are brighter in LR , the highlights darker in NX and c1 is smack in the middle. LR may have a touch more contrast built in
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Nikon D300/M8 test

    Guy,

    On your examples, I think both C1 and NX render more detail and tones than LightRoom. You may be right about the NX having a higher contrast built in than C1. I do like the colors of C1 better.

    Ray

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    Re: Nikon D300/M8 test

    Quote Originally Posted by harmsr View Post
    Here is the photo processed through Capture One Pro 3.7.8 at defaults and the same crop.

    I agree on the color being best in Capture One, but still think that Capture NX wins in all other respects.

    The advantage in Capture NX is that I can also fix these colors and leave it as a preset for all the images.
    Yes NX will certainly give you more controls within the Nikon file. You can copy those settings in other programs as well. BTW i have Version 4 for Capture. My issue is i can't process my M8 files in them just like you.

    It is a program worth looking at no question but it is slower than a turtle to get around.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Nikon D300/M8 test

    Quote Originally Posted by harmsr View Post
    Guy,

    On your examples, I think both C1 and NX render more detail and tones than LightRoom. You may be right about the NX having a higher contrast built in than C1. I do like the colors of C1 better.

    Ray
    You may very well be correct C1 looks very good. i may have some sharpening on C1 though and need to check that. But the color does look better than the other two out of the box.

    I do have a little sharpening on C1. It's very light but still there 180 amount radius .8 and threshold 1 but I do most of my sharpening in PS . That's me though

    Also it does spread the DR a little better in C1 than LR . Hmmm


    I think we forget how good c1 really is , they have been doing this a LONG time
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Nikon D300/M8 test

    That is what this thread is about is figuring it out . Now you peaked my interest

    C1
    LR
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    Re: Nikon D300/M8 test

    Bingo less yellow. Look at the left wall . Red type is better in C1 more red than yellow and look at far right red building.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Nikon D300/M8 test

    NX
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Nikon D300/M8 test

    LR is the worst with yellow. Than NX and C1 looks the best. Wow nice

    This is being pretty picky folks. LOL

    BTW if you have not noticed the blue sky looks the best in C1 because it has less yellow
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Nikon D300/M8 test

    Just looking at some 24mm shift lens shots . I did this one in C1. I did work it.

    Lens shifted up some
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  19. #69
    Mitch Alland
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    Re: Nikon D300/M8 test

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Both handled it very well. At this point if you really want to match the M8 than i say take a point or two down in saturation
    Guy, have you tried shooting the D300 using the "Natural" rather than the "Standard" Picture Control Mode. See the thread I just started on this:

    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1227

    —Mitch/Tsumeb, Namibia
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    Re: Nikon D300/M8 test

    Mitch I am on neutral even though only NX will pick that up. It does have some kick the files.
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    Re: Nikon D300/M8 test

    given all the testing, are you seeing anything between these camera systems that would support the hype about the signature leica look, pop, 3-D effect, glow, space around the subject, etc.:

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    Re: Nikon D300/M8 test

    Tough question John. I think you can get any of that per say with the right lighting and subject . But let's not forget about technique also. I think a lot comes from separation from background and bokeh with lighting to separate subject from background and such. Looking at Kurts Zeiss 100 images there is a certain pop and glow to them. Maybe the Zeiss and leica glass does this better overall but certainly can get it with Nikon too. Really a hard question to answer and it stumps me a little. I think this maybe harder a little with cropped sensors too, sometimes there is just too much DOF to separate. Although we have done it a lot with the DMR and M8 too. So it may come down to what we all think is the glass and the way each lens draws. let's face it Nikon and Canon build general lenses to have the same look. Leica has 3 different 75mm that produce different feel to them through there design. Not sure anyone but Leica and Zeiss does any of that. We all know what a Summilux does compared to a cron. Leica has these Mandler designs that just are awesome in look. That is not what the new designs do anymore . Although my new Zeiss lenses look pretty similar
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    Re: Nikon D300/M8 test

    Alright with C1 I am doing some finals that I would do to make these look good. This is really clean in C1 , I see no yellow the low and mid tones have been opened up and balanced pretty good. i would deliver this. I also WB it
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    Re: Nikon D300/M8 test

    C1 again copied the WB from the other image and applied the same settings all around. Looks much better
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    Re: Nikon D300/M8 test

    Here i just knocked down the saturation to -2 in C1 . I think this also is a help. This was shot at 5.6 with the 85mm I believe it says 85 but I have 50 in the bank and I did not change it so all of them say 85 1.4 . Really does not matter much because i still get the correct working F stop with either one since they both are 1.4 lenses but given the DOF this looks like the 85mm and the time I shot it with other things
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    Re: Nikon D300/M8 test

    This is looking a lot better to me and making me pretty happy now.
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    Re: Nikon D300/M8 test

    Okay went back to C1 with the M8 and processed this without looking at the other at default .

    M8
    Nikon

    C1 in both
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    Re: Nikon D300/M8 test

    leica now WB to be correct
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    Re: Nikon D300/M8 test

    Folks that is the real difference between the two camera's is the last two. A little more open in the low end for the Leica
    Frankly that is damn good
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    Re: Nikon D300/M8 test

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Yes NX will certainly give you more controls within the Nikon file. You can copy those settings in other programs as well. BTW i have Version 4 for Capture. My issue is i can't process my M8 files in them just like you.

    It is a program worth looking at no question but it is slower than a turtle to get around.
    guy

    Phase just released 3.7.8 which processes both D300 and D3 files. I still like the program better than C4

    Woody

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    Re: Nikon D300/M8 test

    And people wonder why I keep going back to C1 for all my files...

    Fast workflow without having to import, great image quality, and most accurate colors with a variety of different cameras. Need I say more?

    David

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    Re: Nikon D300/M8 test

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    guy

    Phase just released 3.7.8 which processes both D300 and D3 files. I still like the program better than C4

    Woody
    Woody i finally ran out of updates on my Pro version and i am not happy about it either.

    I like the workflow better on the old version. The new one is a little clunky . They need to combine the tabs. So everything is in one place
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    Re: Nikon D300/M8 test

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    And people wonder why I keep going back to C1 for all my files...

    Fast workflow without having to import, great image quality, and most accurate colors with a variety of different cameras. Need I say more?

    David
    Well there is something to be said about the old farts. They been around a long time and have it pretty wired when it comes to color and profiles. It certainly is cleaner David. That yellow cast is gone
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    Re: Nikon D300/M8 test

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Bingo less yellow. Look at the left wall . Red type is better in C1 more red than yellow and look at far right red building.
    Guy, good work and great read.

    In addition to the areas you pointed out about the attached photo, the area I have circled is really telling about the differences in color (and maybe detail) from the different RAW processors and cameras. Take a look at the different versions you have posted.

    Attachment 2584


    Another thing I noticed form your other thread and Kurt's photos is the Nikon's do a better job with skin tones than what I have seen from Canon but not quite as good as the Leica. Maybe I am just projecting and this is not really the case.

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    Re: Nikon D300/M8 test

    Well you get down to sensor types and lenses . The DMR and M8 are CCD from Kodak so they will be different from Nikon and Canon also plus the OEM"s algorythms. Than you get to lenses from are film days with the same film emulsion we always said in general Leica warm, Nikon cool and Canon warm but every Canon I have owned can't do a red worth a damn. It was always orange red , now part of that maybe different convertors or how Canon sets things up . Now I hear DPP does a better job of it but there are so many variables it is hard to pin point a lot of it. But in general leica does a great job on skin tones a touch warm but mostly what people like but Nikon is more neutral in tone. Than Kurt and I are shooting these new Zeiss glass and that has something to add to the package . I like the look of these Zeiss lenses for Nikon.
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    Re: Nikon D300/M8 test

    This week coming I have some more critical color work in Kansas so we will see what that brings us. I still like LR for workflow so i need to figure that out also. I will be working with strobes on most of it and that should help us a little more
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    Re: Nikon D300/M8 test

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    given all the testing, are you seeing anything between these camera systems that would support the hype about the signature leica look, pop, 3-D effect, glow, space around the subject, etc.:
    CErtainly not hype.

    However, many years ago, after happily using a Nikon for years, I bought my wife a used Leica with 35mm 2.8 lens.

    AFter the first roll of film came back she said

    gee, these look a lot better. More lively more intersting.

    She didn't say The perception of 3-D effect and airiness is significantly better than the other camera and...

    ...as many here (including MOI would do )

    I think it is a preference built on many images.

    and who knows, maybe Nikon with its new lenses has closed the gap.

    I doubt that it has done completely. But time will tell. However, it will not be decision made from a few image comparisons.

    Now, the counterargument is that these are high contrast, nicely composed. Sure the Floods on top look as "3-D' in the N as the L

    But what about wgen you have a close in, complex, underlit image?

    And hey, you get that red dot to boot!!

    your ('red-dot-snob-for -the-time-being') respectfully
    Victor

    PS Guy, keep'em coming
    Quite illuminating.
    Last edited by gogopix; 30th March 2008 at 10:05.

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    Re: Nikon D300/M8 test

    Well i still love Leica glass, there is no question there so I am somewhat biased towards it. But I do like what we are seeing lately from the Zeiss and Nikon camps
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Nikon D300/M8 test

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    And people wonder why I keep going back to C1 for all my files...

    Fast workflow without having to import, great image quality, and most accurate colors with a variety of different cameras. Need I say more?

    David
    David really may have something with this thought.

    This thread and my files from this weekend have really shown me that although aperture and lightroom are very convienent, I sacrifice a lot in the way of quality on the processing.

    I think for M8, Capture 1 is locked in.

    For the D3, I'm still playing between Capture 1 and Capture NX.

    Maybe at some point in the future, Aperture or Lightroom can catch up on their RAW processor. I really want to use Aperture and all the new plug-ins which are coming, but just can't sacrifice the quality of RAW development for the convenience.

    Ray

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    Re: Nikon D300/M8 test

    Ray have you tried Aperture with the D3 files yet. Like to hear and opinion on it . Folks remember I can post any Raw file you have seen and you can see if Aperture is looking better or not
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    Re: Nikon D300/M8 test

    Noob-ish question here. When I received my M8, the disk that came with it had a version of Capture 1. I installed it and liked it a lot for the M8 files (especially after using JR's profiles). I liked it so much, I downloaded and installed Capture 1-v4(?) and used my serial number to get what I thought was an upgrade to the original. Then I swapped all my computers and now have only the Capture 1-v4 left, which has a different interface than the original. Plus, now and again I hear something about a Capture 1 Pro.

    So what's the deal? Is one of these Capture 1 versions preferred over the others? Is the version that folks seem to like best the one prior to v4? Scratching my head a little here and would appreciate any clarification you can offer.

    Thanks,
    Tim

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    Re: Nikon D300/M8 test

    Tim that is correct you can use the CD serial code to upgrade to Version 4 but this Version 4 is considered the light version. The upcoming Version 4 Pro will have tethered support and more features than the current one. The Version 3.7.8 is the Old Pro version that we are waiting on for the version 4 Pro to come out. Yes it is confusing, great question
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  43. #93
    Subscriber Member TRSmith's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon D300/M8 test

    Thanks Guy! I'll keep an eye open for the 4-pro announcement.

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    Re: Nikon D300/M8 test

    Guy,

    Here is the same D300 file and crop from Aperture.

    I think it is definitely better than Lightroom, has color that is as good as Capture One, and detail which is very close to Capture One and Capture NX. I also played with the files some more between Capture One and Capture NX. When I bump the contrast in Capture One, it is very similiar to Capture NX.

    This is going to take some playing and tuning as my mind keeps changing.

    Lightroom is in last place at the moment.

    Apeture, Capture One, & Capture NX are running in the same group until I do some more evaluations.

    Capture NX is very good on the Nikon files, but both Aperture and Capture One do deliver better color. Capture NX may provide marginally better detail/tonality but is not as convenient as Aperture. Capture NX does not have the color down as good as Capture One or Aperture. It also does not work on my M8 files. On the big plus side is that it has "U" point built in. (However, Aperture soon will also.)

    Tonality is very close between Aperture, Capture One, & Capture NX.

    Relative to Noise reduction, I think Capture NX is the best out of the group on Nikon files. However, it is not as good as doing it in Photoshop with Noise Ninja. Aperture is going to soon have Noise Ninja as a direct plug-in.

    I need to evaluate what happens with these custom curves function that you can do on the Nikon camera and see if they work on the RAW file direct or only work in combination with Capture NX. Does anybody know the answer to this?

    At this MOMENT IN TIME Aperture wins from ease of use for multiple purposes and what is coming from the plug-ins, but I need to spend some more time working the files in Aperture, Capture One, and Capture NX to see really which ends up the best when they are processed.

    Since my mind is in such flux at the moment, give me your comments on the Aperture conversion.

    Best,

    Ray

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    Re: Nikon D300/M8 test

    I took a rather mundane M8 shot with the 50 pre asph lux and then processed in lightroom, C1 4.0 and finally C1 3.7.8. All were processed as nearly identically as possible but my hand could be in there somewhere if inadvertantly. Just for your review........no science or conclusions at this point.

    Woody

    The images from top to bottom are:

    C1 Version 4.1

    C1 Pro version 3.7.8

    Lightroom 1.4

    To my eye the two versions of Capture 1 are very close. Whereas the color shift in Lightroom, particularly the green in the roof of the building is really far out.

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    Subscriber gogopix's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon D300/M8 test

    woody
    nice comparison. Look at the vertical vent; to me the C1 Pro retains the misro contrast that Jack submits (and I am beginning to think he is right) of the leica lenses. The C4 and LR do not. They look flatter, and the PRO C1 just has a touch better micro contrast thus gets that dreaded'3-D' effect

    Color difference are likely understandable and correctable once you understand how each uses the profiles.

    Victor

    PS: I plan to FINALLY unpack the 105 tomorrow. I have a tree and my 800mm set up for birds, and actually, it is TOO much.

    The zoom will allow me to use the tripod and catch from titmice to crows from the same postion, though I assume the 105 end is crisper (according to Robert Stevens anyway.

    Victor

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    Re: Nikon D300/M8 test

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    woody
    nice comparison. Look at the vertical vent; to me the C1 Pro retains the misro contrast that Jack submits (and I am beginning to think he is right) of the leica lenses. The C4 and LR do not. They look flatter, and the PRO C1 just has a touch better micro contrast thus gets that dreaded'3-D' effect

    Color difference are likely understandable and correctable once you understand how each uses the profiles.

    Victor

    PS: I plan to FINALLY unpack the 105 tomorrow. I have a tree and my 800mm set up for birds, and actually, it is TOO much.

    The zoom will allow me to use the tripod and catch from titmice to crows from the same postion, though I assume the 105 end is crisper (according to Robert Stevens anyway.

    Victor
    Victor

    I'll be anxious †o see some of your results from the 105-280. This was originally David Farkas' personal lens and it is a really good sample (maybe they all are for all I know.)

    I am very keen for Phase one to bring out the new capture one pro software. I love the old 3.7.8 but it is now hard to do without recovery, fill, highlight control etc. Capture 4.1 has those controls but the color is not quite as good as 3.7.8 (but close).

    I think I am going back to my old workflow which is to catalog using Lightroom and process in C1. Haven't found anything better.

    woody

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    Re: Nikon D300/M8 test

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    Victor

    I'll be anxious †o see some of your results from the 105-280. This was originally David Farkas' personal lens and it is a really good sample (maybe they all are for all I know.)

    I am very keen for Phase one to bring out the new capture one pro software. I love the old 3.7.8 but it is now hard to do without recovery, fill, highlight control etc. Capture 4.1 has those controls but the color is not quite as good as 3.7.8 (but close).

    I think I am going back to my old workflow which is to catalog using Lightroom and process in C1. Haven't found anything better.

    woody
    Woody Could you elaborate on your workflow. This was covered before but I came away without a conclusion. I am assuming you do the Raw conversion first in C1 and then import "what" into Lightroom. The issue I am trying to work thru is the need to edit and select before spending any real time on the image.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon D300/M8 test

    Roger you could also just use Bridge to do this and throw the junk out than go process but myself I just edit as I go in LR or C1 . If i did three images of the same thing I just toggle between them and pick my keeper than work it and move on.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Nikon D300/M8 test

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    Woody Could you elaborate on your workflow. This was covered before but I came away without a conclusion. I am assuming you do the Raw conversion first in C1 and then import "what" into Lightroom. The issue I am trying to work thru is the need to edit and select before spending any real time on the image.
    Hey Roger

    I use Lightroom to import my files and to copy to several other hard drives to have redundancy and never lost a file (hopefully). I use Lightroom to then rate the images and decide what is worth of print.

    Then i go to C1 to work the file in raw state to get the best i can (IMHO) and finally to Photoshop to do selective work on various areas of the image for dodging, burning, etc and get the file ready for print. Not the most simplified workflow but I am not yet ready to acknowledge that ACR is the converter of choice. I just get too many color changes that I don't recognize and like. May be just me, who knows.

    I am now "playing" with Aperture trial 2.1. The early work with the raw converter is hopeful...........needs more time on my part to assure that I know what I am doing but I get results more to my liking than with Lightroom. One thing I did notice is that you must really be careful with vibrance in both programs. I have noted serious color shifts with this control. The green tint I noted in the three conversions I did in the Nikon thread turned out to be due specifically to this control. I could absolutely replicate the change in both Aperture and Lightroom. Of course C1 has no such control so the colors remained at what I believe are the accurate versions.

    I will keep everyone posted on my experiences with Aperture. It would be great to have one program which basically does it all from cataloging to image control but it remains to be seen if that is possible.

    Best

    Woody

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