Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
I also think the Nikon has more yellow to it's files. See the tree difference the Leica matches it better in real world
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Nikon D300/M8 test
- Thread starter Guy Mancuso
- Start date
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Well looks like I ran out of images for the Leica. I will back and check but pretty good so far
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Just some key points
DR less about a stop in the Nikon
Yellow likes Nikon or should i say heavy weight on yellow.
Nikon looks a bit too saturated.
Overall pretty good though and more testing and working of files is needed but I hope and think this thread helps understand what Nikon is doing here. Also you can see what the leica does against it. Very hard to test these two head to head we all know that so camera religion should play no part. I would have to get really serious in putting this up against each other in real testing mode which i have done before but it takes awhile. There are a lot of variables and everything needs special attention to get things to neutral. And some facts we just can't change.
DR less about a stop in the Nikon
Yellow likes Nikon or should i say heavy weight on yellow.
Nikon looks a bit too saturated.
Overall pretty good though and more testing and working of files is needed but I hope and think this thread helps understand what Nikon is doing here. Also you can see what the leica does against it. Very hard to test these two head to head we all know that so camera religion should play no part. I would have to get really serious in putting this up against each other in real testing mode which i have done before but it takes awhile. There are a lot of variables and everything needs special attention to get things to neutral. And some facts we just can't change.
nostatic
New member
I think Nikon especially likes yellow in low light. At least my D70 tended that way.
I think where the Nikon is devastatingly good is the AF and "getting the shot." When I was looking at D300 vs. K20d vs. E3, the Nikon was just ridiculously quick and accurate.
Your shots show the difference in the final product, but seems that in digital land you can "fix it in post" and get 99.9% of the way there. So then doesn't it somewhat reduce the "camera" part of the equation to framing and composition? I know that is an extreme simplification, but if the technical end of the cameras are all coalescing towards some objective (?) "ideal" (much like car bodies all look alike today chasing drag coefficients), does it then become an exercise in using the camera to compose and then pp to really generate the image? I know that the darkroom has always been the place that it "lives" but seems that digital has shifted (or made possible the shift) heavily toward pp.
I think where the Nikon is devastatingly good is the AF and "getting the shot." When I was looking at D300 vs. K20d vs. E3, the Nikon was just ridiculously quick and accurate.
Your shots show the difference in the final product, but seems that in digital land you can "fix it in post" and get 99.9% of the way there. So then doesn't it somewhat reduce the "camera" part of the equation to framing and composition? I know that is an extreme simplification, but if the technical end of the cameras are all coalescing towards some objective (?) "ideal" (much like car bodies all look alike today chasing drag coefficients), does it then become an exercise in using the camera to compose and then pp to really generate the image? I know that the darkroom has always been the place that it "lives" but seems that digital has shifted (or made possible the shift) heavily toward pp.
woodyspedden
New member
guy
Again I say many thanks for these efforts. Having a pro like you do the testing assures that all of us gain from your knowledge and experiences.
It would appear to me that one could go with either system and be happy or to mix and match to take advantage of the Leica lenses where appropriate and the Nikon versatility for AF, macro, and long lenses as well as high iso and focus tracking if you are into sports, kids etc.
Many thanks
Woody
Again I say many thanks for these efforts. Having a pro like you do the testing assures that all of us gain from your knowledge and experiences.
It would appear to me that one could go with either system and be happy or to mix and match to take advantage of the Leica lenses where appropriate and the Nikon versatility for AF, macro, and long lenses as well as high iso and focus tracking if you are into sports, kids etc.
Many thanks
Woody
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
To a great extent you can say that most folks do not mind working it somewhat. The Nikon files are not that far off from reality that it becomes a problem for someone that goes fast and has lot's of images either. So with some general understandings of what you are getting and being able to correct on the fly is pretty good. Right off the bat we know the DR is smaller so adding fill and opening up the low end to get back a little is fairly easy. Correcting the yellow is something of a tone curve to apply . So as much as i would rather not work it too much because of time it still is very good. Honestly also the reality is if not comparing against something else one may not realize what is wrong or right too.
Again good raw processing and good color management will always play important parts in our digital life now. That is not a bad thing but more a control that you have to understand and do. i see that as a good thing for folks to learn. It's all about the process of shooting and learning to be good at it.
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
I agree Woody folks do get religious about there gear. We are finally at a point in digital that it is more about what you want to shoot instead of have too. For me mixing up the systems is a good thing but if someone went only Nikon or Leica there not losing much either way. I love my M8's but there are limits with it. But the same token i love shooting RF too and the Leica files are awesome. Now it is said the D3 is even better i will take that advice from folks and assume it would even be closer . Tis is all good for us the end user. We are starting to get better and different choices.
glenerrolrd
Workshop Member
Guy I am particularly interested in Woody s point about mixing and matching. A common comment when people review collections in my portfolio..is the need to have consistency in renderings. Like a wedding album shot with some MF and some M8 ..the different look can throw things off. The DMR and the M8 blend very well ...the look,color etc seems similar. As a pro using now the Nikon and the M8 is this a consideration.....or as you get the files where they look good are they really not that different? And of course thanks for doing this test..its very helpful as I use both systems.
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
It is a concern to a degree to try and match each other . Actually right at the moment i think we can do that with just working the low and mid tones. The yellow bugs me a little but we really have yet to WB anything either plus we are dealing with very warm light but your point is well taken for a wedding shooter too. Can't have a white than a yellow image following it . So we are going to have to figure this out a little. Now most of us know today the M8 with LR it is a touch red so we do have a fix for that lower the red saturation and raise the red luminance we can certainly do this in the yellow and maybe a good try at it. Than we have other convertors as well that have different profiles for the Nikon. NX, C1 and Aperture could also render the colors different. The best thing we could do right now is figure that out by shooting a Macbeth Color chart for the Leica and the Nikon than see how they look in the different processors. I recommend this as a good starting point to see what direction the Nikon files are taken in each convertor. i like LR but obviously some other program can render better.
Roger this maybe a good thing for you is shooting a color chart and trying this with your system. I might have to try this tomorrow
Right now i think we all could say good on Nikon , now we need to control it.
We have lot's of choices to do this
Guy,
I'm working on processing the files from my D3 and the shoot I have been doing these last two days.
The D3 files look really flat, lacking both sharpness, detail, micro contrast, and tonal range in both Aperture and LightRoom. The difference in Capture NX is pretty amazing.
Can I suggest that you really take a second look at any of the Nikon files in Capture NX. I would bet that you will see quite a bit of difference.
To me, my D3 files in Capture NX compare about equally to the M8 at the lower ISO values. As soon as we hit ISO 640 on the M8, the D3 starts to really pull ahead.
Just my $.02.
Good information so far, I just think the results are really negatively biased on the Nikon by using LightRoom.
Best,
Ray
I'm working on processing the files from my D3 and the shoot I have been doing these last two days.
The D3 files look really flat, lacking both sharpness, detail, micro contrast, and tonal range in both Aperture and LightRoom. The difference in Capture NX is pretty amazing.
Can I suggest that you really take a second look at any of the Nikon files in Capture NX. I would bet that you will see quite a bit of difference.
To me, my D3 files in Capture NX compare about equally to the M8 at the lower ISO values. As soon as we hit ISO 640 on the M8, the D3 starts to really pull ahead.
Just my $.02.
Good information so far, I just think the results are really negatively biased on the Nikon by using LightRoom.
Best,
Ray
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Ray I don't think there negatively biased at all. I find nothing special honestly about NX the defaults are really the same even more yellow . Here look at this
LR
NX
C1
LR
NX
C1
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Honestly if anything C1 looks the best . No yellow in the trees and look the most neutral
Here are some examples.
I was shooting the D3 with the 24-70/2.8 and a friends D300 with 70-300/VR at the same time. When the stage started, I was using the wide on the D3 then letting it sling as I ran with the shooter then used the D300 for the tele.
I want you guys to notice that I did not have the 70-200/2.8 on the D300, this was only the consumer level zoom that I borrowed as a backup along with the D300.
Tomorrow I'll post some of the D3 shots but thought that I would include this one here as it is from the D300.
The first on is from LightRoom at defaults, the second one is Capture NX at defaults, the third is a crop from LightRoom, the fourth is the the crop from Capture NX.
To me, I see a major difference in detail and tonal range. You will also notice a slight color difference between the two, and once again Capture NX is much truer to the actual color. I think that you will also see LightRoom is really not protecting the highlights as well.
Best,
Ray
I was shooting the D3 with the 24-70/2.8 and a friends D300 with 70-300/VR at the same time. When the stage started, I was using the wide on the D3 then letting it sling as I ran with the shooter then used the D300 for the tele.
I want you guys to notice that I did not have the 70-200/2.8 on the D300, this was only the consumer level zoom that I borrowed as a backup along with the D300.
Tomorrow I'll post some of the D3 shots but thought that I would include this one here as it is from the D300.
The first on is from LightRoom at defaults, the second one is Capture NX at defaults, the third is a crop from LightRoom, the fourth is the the crop from Capture NX.
To me, I see a major difference in detail and tonal range. You will also notice a slight color difference between the two, and once again Capture NX is much truer to the actual color. I think that you will also see LightRoom is really not protecting the highlights as well.
Best,
Ray
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
There is a lot of yellow in both LR and NX
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Ray what I am seeing is a difference in contrast. LR is spread out more in the highlights. I have noticed the default at NX is sharper. Question is it really at no sharpening. We know C1 off does not mean off unless you hit the off. Also not sure what tag it might be bringing in from camera. It may say off but who knows what Nikon truly is doing on that. We have to be careful because they can be sneaking tags in that you think are off. This is there software and they control that , not saying there being sneaky per say but there profiles are there's. The nice thing about NX is it can bring in the tags as others cannot so I have to question what Nikon is truly doing. It's a nice program no question but I think folks get carried away with hitting a button and it does this or that. C1 and LR there are no buttons you need to push it around
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Look back at the building LR is giving you higher highlights , NX tones that down quite a bit and C1 rides the middle road. Same in your examples, now is Nikons profiles to bring down the highlights to protect from blowing in NX. I bet they are. LOL Or a million people would complain. Canon does the same thing to be honest they drop there profiles to protect from blowing in there camera's.
Here is the photo processed through Capture One Pro 3.7.8 at defaults and the same crop.
I agree on the color being best in Capture One, but still think that Capture NX wins in all other respects.
The advantage in Capture NX is that I can also fix these colors and leave it as a preset for all the images.
I agree on the color being best in Capture One, but still think that Capture NX wins in all other respects.
The advantage in Capture NX is that I can also fix these colors and leave it as a preset for all the images.
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Lets try again
LR
NX
C1
LR
NX
C1
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Same thing the highlights are brighter in LR , the highlights darker in NX and c1 is smack in the middle. LR may have a touch more contrast built in