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Thread: D300 AWB in studio

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    D300 AWB in studio

    Shot some of my daughters friends as they dressed up to take her for her 18th BD . So i shot these in the garage real quick 3x4 softbox with grid and than rim light. Shot at 5.6 with the ZEISS 85mm 1.4 lens. i like this lens. Anyway
    on AWB it came in at 4050 Kelvin. Than after WB of her teeth it jumped to 4550. Than the third one WB off grey background it went to 4950 Kelvin. Pretty interesting . i will play around later but this is straight out of the can
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    Re: D300 AWB in studio

    WB off her teeth seems to hit it pretty good so looks like 500 kelvin to the warmth is the difference it is off.
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    Re: D300 AWB in studio

    These are in LR . Like to try this in C1
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    Re: D300 AWB in studio

    Real quick C1 came in at 4300. Which maybe dead on
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    Re: D300 AWB in studio

    So let me understand both processors picked a different as shot WB? Then when you white balanced they also picked different temps? I thought as shot is as shot and the RAW wasn't altered. Now it would be interesting to see what capture NX does.
    Last edited by Terry; 6th April 2008 at 20:25. Reason: Completely changed post as I misread one of Guy's posts

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    Re: D300 AWB in studio

    LR came in at 4050 In C1 came in at 4300. But in both programs the other images varied / So AWB moved around on different shots. Not a bad thing but setting it to flash at a constant temp would have been better . But this is real easy find the sweet spot than apply to all. Beauty of Raw but I want to look into this more.
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    Re: D300 AWB in studio

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    LR came in at 4050 In C1 came in at 4300. But in both programs the other images varied / So AWB moved around on different shots. Not a bad thing but setting it to flash at a constant temp would have been better . But this is real easy find the sweet spot than apply to all. Beauty of Raw but I want to look into this more.
    But am I understanding this correctly? The same shot/NEF file brought into LR gives a different temp than C1? Or is it past my bedtime and my brain cells are fried?

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    Re: D300 AWB in studio

    I can't figure out what color temp in NX
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    Re: D300 AWB in studio

    Want me to try it in Aperture 2? I will send the results back to you for posting.
    Carlos Echenique | Carlos Echenique Photography |Olympus OM-D E-M1 MK II | Olympus Pen-F - M.Zuiko 17mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 25mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 45mm f/1.8, Rokinon 12mm f/2 NCS, M.Zuiko 75mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 12-40mm f/2.8 PRO, M.Zuiko 40-150mm f/2.8 PRO

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    Re: D300 AWB in studio

    Yes Carlos that would be nice. Trying to use you send it to post a link. My brain is a little fried at the moment but I want to try this again
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: D300 AWB in studio

    Not to worry. I have my own ftp server. I will set up an account for you and e-mail the information to you. This will be completely private.
    Carlos Echenique | Carlos Echenique Photography |Olympus OM-D E-M1 MK II | Olympus Pen-F - M.Zuiko 17mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 25mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 45mm f/1.8, Rokinon 12mm f/2 NCS, M.Zuiko 75mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 12-40mm f/2.8 PRO, M.Zuiko 40-150mm f/2.8 PRO

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    Re: D300 AWB in studio

    I wouldn't be too hard on the AWB in this camera (ok,ok so I AM warming to it. Guy should sell patent medicine: he can convince you of a product from 2,000 miles away!

    My Phase backs have all had issues in some scenes. One of the trickiest is studio background . Except for 'studio grey' which INST! large areas of non grey and black won't balance. AWB makes assumptions, and frankly I am surprised they do as well as they do. THe more large areas of same color, the less better the AWB. THis is known in math as a 'spikey' distribution and it is difficult compared to a nice smooth, many color distribution. It is further confised by sorce (except I assume strobes are whatever.

    Since the background DOES look a bit blue, the balance wants to make warmer, maybe overassumed, made buer etc etc.

    Anyway, also need to juggle the color balnce as well as the green/magenta.

    Since everybody uses whitenong toothpaste these days we have a really 'white balance' point

    Victor

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    Re: D300 AWB in studio

    Guy,

    In Nikon Capture NX, you can use the "1. Basic Adjustments" on the right-hand-side side of the manual windows. Under the "1. Basic Adjustments," select "Raw Adjustments," then "White Balance." The "White Balance" selection will open a separate window box. Go to "New WB," and make changes. You can change color temp in the "Fine Adjustment" bar.

    Hope this helps!

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    Re: D300 AWB in studio

    Thanks that is great Ocean. Victor your absolutely right AWB will just guess at whatever makes it feel good. So I don't want to make a big deal of these but i do want to see what these convertors are doing to skin tones and the rest of the tones. NX drives me crazy , C1 is a good program, LR i like for workflow and Aperture i did like also. What I don't want is two programs , would like one that does my M8's and My Nikons. Also i have to wait to see what the D3 files will do and how they are different. My biggest issue is just getting everything under control and that just takes some time.

    Yes and white teeth is a good WB point. LOL
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    Re: D300 AWB in studio

    I must be missing something here..

    if you are using auto WB then your in camera choice of metering ( spot/matrix/etc etc) plays a part in the cameras 'guessing game' if you use a picker in raw processor then you are being the 'meter'...I am not surprised that different progs deliver different 'guesses' about WB - thats why they have controls to change the guess to what you want ...

    on my Leaf ( for example) I get different look from processing files in various raw processors - all from same 'canned' profiles..the variable ( apart from raw processor) is of course the actual shot and content.

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    Re: D300 AWB in studio

    Girls will be girls and there just having some fun at the cost of my daughter , i though this one was funny so did my wife.

    Anyway little different approach. I just went in and WB of the same spot in each program just to see what happens. There a little different. We have to be careful too these kids spend time in tanning booths and obviously have tans. The only adjustment I made was crop and exposure to match

    LR
    C1
    Nx
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    Re: D300 AWB in studio

    Notice the contrast difference LR has the most, than C1 than NX
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    Re: D300 AWB in studio

    Tough call but to me C1 is the better of the programs on these. Look at specular highlights and tone . C1 seems the smoothest, Than NX . Frankly I wonder what the big hoopla is on NX , it is as clumsy as it gets to work with and no better than C1 in my mind. I am going to get another download of Aperture But for me NX is out , one horse pony does not cut it in my workflow. This will come down to the best tools in each program. I like LR for this and I did like Aperture's tools. c1 i still like the old pro version as a workflow tool. Okay i need to pack for carmel today but i will have to keep trying my top three out LR,C1 and Aperture.
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    Re: D300 AWB in studio

    BTW On screen there wonderful . The D300 is doing a nice job and no lack of detail anywhere. Nikon took a giant leap up in my book. Can't wait to get my D3.

    BTW this was shot with the 17-35 . i see no reason at ALL to replace this lens with the new ones. This is a awesome lens folks and used for under 1k and the smaller size , it's a gimme. Not to say the new ones may not be better still but the 17-35 is a Nikon classic and it is outstanding.
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    Re: D300 AWB in studio

    Guy,
    I agree with what Victor and you are suggesting. The WB can be all over the place, and heavily influenced by its surroundings. In your case, the strong black and gray background on the first shot looks like it did cause a shift. Nikon has always imparted a bit of a "cooler" look to things, so your first rendering with LR does not surprise me. I think C1 "ignores" the in camera settings for RAW, and makes some of its own calculations, unless there was a Custom WB that you did. Cannot speak to NX, as I have not used it, but I agree that it is not looking as good as C1. Aperture can be all over the place also, in my experience with it, but once you dial in what you like, it looks very good, and I like the conversions it yields over the ACR/LR versions for my Canon files. Your Nikon files may be different.

    That D300 and 17-35 is delivering a nice look and plenty of detail for sure. That second batch of shots look a bit overexposed on the NX version and maybe a bit on the C1 version also. (The blacks just do not look black enough or something.) The skin tones look good, so you should be happy there, especially being able to pick out the various subtle shades of pink in the lipsticks and stuff. That has always been tougher for my shooting when using ACR, but Aperture and C1 seem to deliver better there.

    Great stuff.

    LJ

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    Re: D300 AWB in studio

    Guy

    To my eye the skin tones are more realistic in the C1 rendering. Only problem is that it turns all the girls hair to blonde (except for your baby)

    Woody

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    Re: D300 AWB in studio

    LOL yes I did a brunette shot and two girls the rest blondes. What's up with that
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    Re: D300 AWB in studio

    Why donīt you make a white balance on a grey card?

    Either by pushing "PRE" for some seconds and taking a full frame picture of the grey card or by taking one picture of the model holding the grey card and using this for white balance in the raw converter?

    With studio lighting I never used auto white balance.
    Last edited by S.P.; 7th April 2008 at 08:34.

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    Re: D300 AWB in studio

    I should have shot a macbeth color chart. Got lazy
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    Re: D300 AWB in studio

    I did have one issue , maybe someone can enlighten me. My Micro sync transmitter is giving me issues , so i tried the on board flash at -2 stops to pop off my main strobes which went off no problem but would not record my main strobes. Finally had to use a cable . Yes folks Nikons still have PC outlets .

    But there must be a setting i missed so i can see my strobes any idea's out there
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    Re: D300 AWB in studio

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    Guy

    To my eye the skin tones are more realistic in the C1 rendering. Only problem is that it turns all the girls hair to blonde (except for your baby)

    Woody
    Agree Woody they look the best on big monitor
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    Re: D300 AWB in studio

    Guy,
    Actually, I have found that shooting one of the black/gray/white "calibration target" things (collapsable reflector type device) is actually better. It gives you both the proper gray for doing the WB, and it also gives you three sharp spikes to see what your exposure is doing (crushing the blacks or blowing the white out). This is most helpful for folks wanting to shoot JPEGs right out the camera, but it also helps a whole lot with RAW to get a good feel for where the exposure and WB corrections may need any adjustments. I used to stick a MacBeth CC into shots, and got too frustrated looking at all the colors that were not coming out quite right, depending on the RAW converter used ;-) Just a thought.

    LJ

    P.S. This is the kind of thing I am talking about: http://www.adorama.com/WEDT24.html

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    Re: D300 AWB in studio

    Nice idea LJ , thanks i seen one of them . May have to get one
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    Re: D300 AWB in studio

    I'm sure all of her friends are going to want copies. It certainly isn't everday where a bunch of teens can get a group picture that isn't taken with a tiny underpowered flash on a compact camera.they look like they were having lots of fun. Glad there was a brunette shot as that was reallly blond LOL.

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    Re: D300 AWB in studio

    Really BLONDE. Of course we think that but I wonder how much hair coloring is going on here. LOL
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    Re: D300 AWB in studio

    Zeiss 50mm 1.4 at 5.6 processed in C1 at 4400 kelvin. Looks pretty clean here . The Brunettes. I like the look of these Zeiss lenses. Hate shooting ion the garage if it was my call i would have that background 10 ft further away so no detail
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    Re: D300 AWB in studio

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I did have one issue , maybe someone can enlighten me. My Micro sync transmitter is giving me issues , so i tried the on board flash at -2 stops to pop off my main strobes which went off no problem but would not record my main strobes. Finally had to use a cable . Yes folks Nikons still have PC outlets .

    But there must be a setting i missed so i can see my strobes any idea's out there
    You must set the internal flash to "M". If you use TTL the preflash triggers the strobes and you donīt see it on the picture.

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    Re: D300 AWB in studio

    I think C1 is the ticket. BTW in NX it is sharper . Nikon looks like there adding sharpening to there NX package

    LR
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    Re: D300 AWB in studio

    Guy,

    What strobes are you using now? Profoto, Elinchrom and Broncolor all have color temps at around 5400K at all power levels. I usually just set a manual Kelvin balance and go to town, or in a pinch just set to daylight. In my mind any studio strobe worth its salt should be truly daylight balanced and maintain that temperature throughout the entire power range. That way if you have one light at 600Ws and another at 37Ws, you won't get strange and uncorrectable color casts. I'm really looking forward to the new Sekonic digital color meter (I got the memo months ago, but no ship date or price yet). Then, I plan to put every strobe system I can get my hands on to the test!

    David
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    Re: D300 AWB in studio

    David,
    I will love to see your results on those tests. There are differences in light color temps at output levels for some strobe systems for sure. The Profotos, Elinchroms and Broncolor have always prided their rather precise color temp outputs, regardless of output power. I have found my DynaLites to be pretty close there also, but probably not as close across the entire range. There seems to be a lot of variation with many others, so it would be nice to know how good/bad some of these are.

    I would choose Elinchroms for most consistency and just really lovely light, Profotos for sturdiness and also very nice light. The Brons are also wonderful, but they are a bit too proud of their product (expensive). The DynaLites are a bit of a compromise for very light and very portable compared to the others, and yet they can produce a nice light also. I keep threatening to change up to Profotos, just because I haul things around so much and they are less "fragile", but the added bulk and weight is less attractive.

    Also on the scene now are Westcott daylight balanced fluorescents. The color temps from them are very consistent at 5400K or so. They just do not put out all that much light, but it does wrap nicely (very soft), and the units stay very cool, plus you can mix with strobes to get different accents, and that seems to work nicely. I like them for being able to shoot slower shutter speeds at wider apertures and still get a nice daylight look without the heat of other continuous lights, and being able to mix with flash for spots or highlights, while still seeing most of what you want for light coverage. (Modeling lights are o.k., but just are not the same when trying to shape the light more precisely, IMHO.)

    Sorry to hijack Guy's thread, but this is valuable stuff also ;-)

    LJ
    Last edited by LJL; 7th April 2008 at 09:59.

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    Re: D300 AWB in studio

    Quote Originally Posted by S.P. View Post
    You must set the internal flash to "M". If you use TTL the preflash triggers the strobes and you donīt see it on the picture.
    Great had a feeling it was something like that
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    Re: D300 AWB in studio

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    Guy,

    What strobes are you using now? Profoto, Elinchrom and Broncolor all have color temps at around 5400K at all power levels. I usually just set a manual Kelvin balance and go to town, or in a pinch just set to daylight. In my mind any studio strobe worth its salt should be truly daylight balanced and maintain that temperature throughout the entire power range. That way if you have one light at 600Ws and another at 37Ws, you won't get strange and uncorrectable color casts. I'm really looking forward to the new Sekonic digital color meter (I got the memo months ago, but no ship date or price yet). Then, I plan to put every strobe system I can get my hands on to the test!

    David
    I downgrade from the Profot0s's just did not need so much power . I have Dynalite Twinkles which are 600 watt mono's they are pretty good, have 4 of them and there cheap . i need more I rent Profoto's, have two places in town to get all I need.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: D300 AWB in studio

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    (...) I'm really looking forward to the new Sekonic digital color meter (I got the memo months ago, but no ship date or price yet). (...)
    David, do you mean this one ?
    http://www.ephotozine.com/article/Se...-Colour-Meters

    How on earth can such a device cost around ~1400 USD
    I mean it can't even take the photo ...

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    Re: D300 AWB in studio

    Great captures, Guy, and some sharp lens !
    In that web sized image measuring just 598 X 900 you can still see tiny little light hairs on her left arm.

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    Re: D300 AWB in studio

    Quote Originally Posted by bondo View Post
    David, do you mean this one ?
    http://www.ephotozine.com/article/Se...-Colour-Meters

    How on earth can such a device cost around ~1400 USD
    I mean it can't even take the photo ...
    Yup,

    But I don't think it'll be quite so much in USD when it comes out. Built-in Pocket Wizard is pretty nice too...

    Just think how easy custom WB will be after this baby!

    Anyone want to preorder?

    David
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    Re: D300 AWB in studio

    I have long been tempted by this sort of thing, especially in some tricky lighting situations. My only question relates to how well the meter reading matches any settings on the camera or in conversion apps. Even if it is not exactly the same, if there is a systematic error difference, one could still dial in the "correction".

    Second thing.....would it be able to handle the "tint" problem? and how? Yeah, I am asking for a lot here ;-)

    LJ

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    Re: D300 AWB in studio

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    I have long been tempted by this sort of thing, especially in some tricky lighting situations. My only question relates to how well the meter reading matches any settings on the camera or in conversion apps. Even if it is not exactly the same, if there is a systematic error difference, one could still dial in the "correction".

    Second thing.....would it be able to handle the "tint" problem? and how? Yeah, I am asking for a lot here ;-)

    LJ
    LJ,

    Here are some grabs from the PDF memo I got. See if this clears it up. Basically, yes it handles WB and Tint offset.

    David
    David Farkas
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    Re: D300 AWB in studio

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    LJ,

    Here are some grabs from the PDF memo I got. See if this clears it up. Basically, yes it handles WB and Tint offset.

    David
    Whoa Nellie! Now this is getting seriously good. If one can translate these readings to various RAW conversion settings, it will be excellent color balance settings. Then one could dial in their own preferences, should they want.

    I am liking the specs and promises. I would really like to see some "actuals" once this baby ships. One can argue that the simple black/gray/white device will work, and it will, but for folks that do dial down/up strobes, they usually never take a new reading, and if the strobes are not consistent, things go off. This could be a real boon for that kind of shooting.

    You MUST keep us posted on this. Thanks for bringing it up, David.

    LJ

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: D300 AWB in studio

    350 dollars and I will take one. Wow that has some stuff on it.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: D300 AWB in studio

    If I were not struggling to figure out how to get my MF fix "fixed" also, I would be jumping on this. It would be a real asset for the MF shooting also, so I really have little excuse. Like Guy said.....350 and I am in....but it looks like it gonna be a wee bit more ;-)

    LJ

    P.S. This is nice to get ambient as well as flash. How many times have any of us shot stuff in 7200K "daylight" thinking it was maybe 6000K or so?

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    Re: D300 AWB in studio

    Guy, did you get the Aperture 2 version? Or would you rather have me post it?
    Carlos Echenique | Carlos Echenique Photography |Olympus OM-D E-M1 MK II | Olympus Pen-F - M.Zuiko 17mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 25mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 45mm f/1.8, Rokinon 12mm f/2 NCS, M.Zuiko 75mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 12-40mm f/2.8 PRO, M.Zuiko 40-150mm f/2.8 PRO

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    Re: D300 AWB in studio

    Go ahead and post it Carlos. I will have to play with it after the workshop this week. Thanks too
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: D300 AWB in studio

    As you wish sir.

    Here is the Aperture 2 version.

    WB came in at 4273K. She also has a stray hair on her hip.
    Carlos Echenique | Carlos Echenique Photography |Olympus OM-D E-M1 MK II | Olympus Pen-F - M.Zuiko 17mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 25mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 45mm f/1.8, Rokinon 12mm f/2 NCS, M.Zuiko 75mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 12-40mm f/2.8 PRO, M.Zuiko 40-150mm f/2.8 PRO

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    Re: D300 AWB in studio

    Update:

    Sekonic PRODIGI COLOR C-500R is now available. Price is $1072 for the PocketWizard radio version and $974 for the non-radio version. I've posted a link in the Gear Garage forum at http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1486.

    David
    David Farkas
    Leica Store Miami

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