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Thread: Getting my feet wet on the dark side, and other mixed metaphors...

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    Getting my feet wet on the dark side, and other mixed metaphors...

    Well, I cracked...I bought a mint F6 and 17-35mm lens from Camera West, so I will soon begin to experience Nikon. If I like the results I get, I will probably look into a 24-70 or a 50/1.4 and 105mm. And a digital body to put them on...Hmm. It will be my first autofocus camera (well, in 35mm anyway), and I am interested to see how the miracles of modern science like 3D color matrix metering, 11 zone AF, self-checking shutters and 5fps film transport will effect my photography. Though these are top of the line Nikon items, they are still comparitively cheap (after Leica, Rollei and Hasselblad, Nikon seems quite a bargain). I don't doubt that I could turn them around for very little loss if they are not to my liking.

    So we'll see, I am not going to sell all the R stuff yet, but I am interested to see the comparison. At times I feel like the R system is too close to the M system for what I use it for...mostly travel, landscape and portraiture. The Nikon promises to offer much faster performance and more accurate metering, along with more versatile digital options. I have a feeling that it may work better for me, allowing me something that truly offers something different and unique when compared to the M system (my primary system).

    Or it could just be the gearhead in me rationalizing.

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    Re: Getting my feet wet on the dark side, and other mixed metaphors...

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Richardson View Post

    Or it could just be the gearhead in me rationalizing.
    Dreadful isn't it.
    yesterday I bought:
    D3
    14-24
    24-70
    and a cheap 70-300 AFS VR zoom

    Would you like me to rationalize it?

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Getting my feet wet on the dark side, and other mixed metaphors...

    No...no rationalization is necessary. I appreciate you coming in here having spent more than me though. It makes me look like I have been careful!

    How do you like the D3? I am very tempted by it, but I want to see what photokina brings before I purchase a top of the line DSLR...at that point I will decide whether to buy an R10 (if it exists), a D3, or a D3x if one is announced.

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    Re: Getting my feet wet on the dark side, and other mixed metaphors...

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Richardson View Post
    No...no rationalization is necessary. I appreciate you coming in here having spent more than me though. It makes me look like I have been careful!

    How do you like the D3? I am very tempted by it, but I want to see what photokina brings before I purchase a top of the line DSLR...at that point I will decide whether to buy an R10 (if it exists), a D3, or a D3x if one is announced.
    Okay, well, I'll do a bit of rationalisation.
    I want a D3x . . . actually, that isn't quite true, what I want is something the size of a D300 with a full frame 20+mp sensor using the nice new Nikon lenses (they really are very good). I thought about waiting, and I also thought about the Sony . . the trouble with the sony is that there aren't many lenses, and the good ones are nearly twice the price of the Nikon lenses. The R10 is so much up in the air that there doesn't seem to be any way to go just yet . . but if I'm going to have a dSLR, then I want the focusing/exposure and bells and whistles, and I really don't think that Leica have the resources to produce that.
    Then I thought that I have to do a couple of weddings this summer (silly me) and that the D3 would be a real companion to my M8s -and when the D3x turns up, I should be able to sell it without losing too much, and the lenses will be there.

    As for the D3, well, it's big (you know that). Fascinatingly it's like a huge and very hight quality point and shoot. For me, I put it on Aperture priority and auto-ISO, with 6400 as the max, and a shutter speed depending on the lens, and then I just choose the aperture I want and fire away. Everything is properly exposed and in focus . . . . magic really!

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    Re: Getting my feet wet on the dark side, and other mixed metaphors...

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Richardson View Post
    No...no rationalization is necessary. I appreciate you coming in here having spent more than me though. It makes me look like I have been careful!

    How do you like the D3? I am very tempted by it, but I want to see what photokina brings before I purchase a top of the line DSLR...at that point I will decide whether to buy an R10 (if it exists), a D3, or a D3x if one is announced.
    Stuart and Jono

    I have mixed feelings about a D3X. I have now read a number of informed articles that postulate that an ideal pixel pitch is around 7.2 microns. Both the Nikon D3 and the highly regarded Aptus 75S have this 7.2 micron pitch. Obviously more pixels means less interpolation when sizing the image for print. So theoretically this is an advantage. My point would be that if large prints are your forte you should probably be looking at medium format. I have personally found that both M8 and D3 files hold up very well up to 24x30 which is as large as i can print on my Epson 7800.

    I am undoubtedly going to go MF when i can afford it which means when i sell off enough of the gear i already own to get the cash. As a primarily landscape shooter mf is the way I must ultimately go. But I am just not sure about 22Mpx in a 24x36 sensor. But YMMV

    Woody

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    Re: Getting my feet wet on the dark side, and other mixed metaphors...

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Fascinatingly it's like a huge and very hight quality point and shoot. For me, I put it on Aperture priority and auto-ISO, with 6400 as the max, and a shutter speed depending on the lens, and then I just choose the aperture I want and fire away. Everything is properly exposed and in focus . . . . magic really!
    It is pretty funny that with all the bells and whistles it can be used just like point and shoot with good files (actually easier than most point and shoots because you don't have to constantly worry that you are going to blow the highlights). But even funnier was when I went back to the M8 and forgot to focus. oops.

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    Re: Getting my feet wet on the dark side, and other mixed metaphors...

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Dreadful isn't it.
    yesterday I bought:
    D3
    14-24
    24-70
    and a cheap 70-300 AFS VR zoom

    Would you like me to rationalize it?
    OMG ........JONO DID IT
    Now lets see some pictures new nikon man
    congrats! helen

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    Re: Getting my feet wet on the dark side, and other mixed metaphors...

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    I have mixed feelings about a D3X. I have now read a number of informed articles that postulate that an ideal pixel pitch is around 7.2 microns. Both the Nikon D3 and the highly regarded Aptus 75S have this 7.2 micron pitch. Obviously more pixels means less interpolation when sizing the image for print. So theoretically this is an advantage. My point would be that if large prints are your forte you should probably be looking at medium format. I have personally found that both M8 and D3 files hold up very well up to 24x30 which is as large as i can print on my Epson 7800.

    Woody
    This is a very good point Woody. I have been considering it myself, but I won't really know until I get around to printing some large prints from D3 samples. In the black and white darkroom, I generally print up to 20x24 (including from 35mm film), but if I had access to a 9800, I would print 30x30 or larger from medium format. With the M8, I have made 17x22's that look great. I have not had as much luck with the DMR. The detail is there, but things look a bit too "digital" to me. It could very easily be my technique, or the particular files I have tried. If the D3 can do a good 24x30, that would be plenty for me. How good is the question. At that point, 35mm lenses are being taxed quite heavily. At that size and larger, medium format is so much better that if you have the choice, it is the clear winner. At least it has been in my experience.

    As for a D3x, I would not really want a 20+ MP camera, I would think something full frame, 16-20mp would be a good balance of largish pixels, high resolution, and realistic expectations for the lenses used. I don't need 8fps or ISO 25000. I would happily trade both for slightly higher MP, as long as there are real image quality improvements. If 12mp really is the best of all possible worlds (ooh, a Leibniz reference on GetDPI...that must be a first), then I am happy to stick with it.

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    Re: Getting my feet wet on the dark side, and other mixed metaphors...

    Stuart, welcome and congratulations on your nikon acquisition.

    Jono...Congratulations. You will get more lenses..I promise.

    I started with a D70s and see where it landed me!

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    Re: Getting my feet wet on the dark side, and other mixed metaphors...

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Richardson View Post
    This is a very good point Woody. I have been considering it myself, but I won't really know until I get around to printing some large prints from D3 samples. In the black and white darkroom, I generally print up to 20x24 (including from 35mm film), but if I had access to a 9800, I would print 30x30 or larger from medium format. With the M8, I have made 17x22's that look great. I have not had as much luck with the DMR. The detail is there, but things look a bit too "digital" to me. It could very easily be my technique, or the particular files I have tried. If the D3 can do a good 24x30, that would be plenty for me. How good is the question. At that point, 35mm lenses are being taxed quite heavily. At that size and larger, medium format is so much better that if you have the choice, it is the clear winner. At least it has been in my experience.

    As for a D3x, I would not really want a 20+ MP camera, I would think something full frame, 16-20mp would be a good balance of largish pixels, high resolution, and realistic expectations for the lenses used. I don't need 8fps or ISO 25000. I would happily trade both for slightly higher MP, as long as there are real image quality improvements. If 12mp really is the best of all possible worlds (ooh, a Leibniz reference on GetDPI...that must be a first), then I am happy to stick with it.
    Stuart,

    The DMR files print beautifully at 20x30, so do M8 files, so does the D3. In fact, I have a hard time seeing any difference in detail between a 22MP ZD file and a 10MP M8 file at "only" 20x30. You would really have to print twice this size to realize a large detail difference. To that end, I believe Nikon was very smart in coming out with the D3. How will a D3x perform with smaller pixels? We'll see. But I'm with Woody, I like 6.8 or 7.2 micron size pixels.

    David
    David Farkas
    Leica Store Miami

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    Re: Getting my feet wet on the dark side, and other mixed metaphors...

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post

    I have mixed feelings about a D3X. I have now read a number of informed articles that postulate that an ideal pixel pitch is around 7.2 microns. Both the Nikon D3 and the highly regarded Aptus 75S have this 7.2 micron pitch. Obviously more pixels means less interpolation when sizing the image for print. So theoretically this is an advantage. My point would be that if large prints are your forte you should probably be looking at medium format. I have personally found that both M8 and D3 files hold up very well up to 24x30 which is as large as i can print on my Epson 7800.
    HI Woody
    Of course, I've read all about it as well. What made me pause before heading off into MF was the combination of the reports on the D3, and, more to the point, the reports on those two lenses.

    I haven't done the math, but I'd guess that a 24mp D3x would have a pixel pitch about the same as the D300. . . looking at dpreview:
    24mp sony sensor = 5.94μm
    D300 sensor = 5.34μm
    D3 sensor = 8.45μm

    So, in fact, the pixel pitch would be larger than a D300, I haven't seen too many complaints about that sensor (of course, it isn't going to have such a good high ISO result, but nor will any MF camera I'm aware of).

    Lenses may be an issue, as they seem to be with Canon. But the impression I get from these two new Nikon lenses is that they should be just fine. Let's face it, if we can have a 24mp camera with a focal length range from 14-70mm in a 3 kg bag which is good to 1600 ISO. . . . . . It'll take quite a lot to push me into MF (how about you).

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    Re: Getting my feet wet on the dark side, and other mixed metaphors...

    Helen, Terry
    Yep, it's just a great big point and shoot (I have it set up the way you do with your D300 Helen . . . at least, for most purposes).

    Helen, I thought I might start up a fun nikon thread to see what's what!

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    Re: Getting my feet wet on the dark side, and other mixed metaphors...

    Quote Originally Posted by rayyan View Post
    Stuart, welcome and congratulations on your nikon acquisition.

    Jono...Congratulations. You will get more lenses..I promise.

    I started with a D70s and see where it landed me!
    no no nooooooo I'm NOT NOT NOT going there again!

    Truth be told, those two zooms (14-24 and 24-70) are so wonderful, that they are going to make anything else seem a little poor in comparison, so I might be saved.

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Getting my feet wet on the dark side, and other mixed metaphors...

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    I like 6.8 or 7.2 micron size pixels.

    David
    HI David
    do you really think that 5.9 micron (sony 24mp sensor) is going not going to be good enough?

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    Re: Getting my feet wet on the dark side, and other mixed metaphors...

    I did a bad thing....


    Kind of like Jono.....


    Good thing I am selling stuff, because this month's credit card bill is going to be beefy. I have already mostly offset the cost of what I got today by selling things, but I still have things to sell. I had been trying to decide whether or not to go to medium format digital, and then I realized that while, yes, I have some of the lenses and it sounds great, it is not worth the multiple of thousands of dollars for me. I am primarily interested in black and white film in medium format, so the only real hole in my equipment arsenal is a 35mm dslr...particularly one that is AF, does well with high iso and so on.

    So, I got the D3 and the 24-70, which were both miraculously available at Calumet today. One look at the performance at ISO 4000 in the store, and I was sold. It is simply astonishing. The focus is blisteringly fast, completely silent (or at least I could not hear it in the store), and the camera is not nearly as big and heavy as I anticipated. It is big, no doubt, but quite comparable to the DMR. Anyway, the battery is still charging, and I need to read the manual, so no photos yet. I will post some shots in the next couple of days. Just playing around so far, however, and it is exceedingly impressive. I will compare the 24-70 to the 28-90, and some of the other R lenses in the next couple of days. It should be an interesting evaluation. I was very pleased to see that the 24-70 did have perfectly round aperture blades like the 28-90...it's a good start!

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    Re: Getting my feet wet on the dark side, and other mixed metaphors...

    Congratulations Stuart
    I don't think you'll be disappointed.
    It's bizarre thing to do, but putting it on auto ISO seems to be just right!

    Anyway, enjoy (I am), I'll be fascinated in your lens comparison with the DMR 28-90 (I've never had any R lenses).

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    Re: Getting my feet wet on the dark side, and other mixed metaphors...

    Congratulations!

    I look forward to hearing your experience about the D3 and comparisons of the zoom lenses. I have been sitting on the fence as an R user (not DMR but R8).

    Enjoy your D3.

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    Re: Getting my feet wet on the dark side, and other mixed metaphors...

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    ...Of course, I've read all about it as well. What made me pause before heading off into MF was the combination of the reports on the D3, and, more to the point, the reports on those two lenses.

    I haven't done the math, but I'd guess that a 24mp D3x would have a pixel pitch about the same as the D300. . . looking at dpreview:
    24mp sony sensor = 5.94μm
    D300 sensor = 5.34μm
    D3 sensor = 8.45μm

    So, in fact, the pixel pitch would be larger than a D300, I haven't seen too many complaints about that sensor (of course, it isn't going to have such a good high ISO result, but nor will any MF camera I'm aware of)...
    Jono, have you been able to figure out the significance of this pixel pitch matter and the pixel density of the D300 vs the D3 that we discussed in another thread?

    —Mitch/Paris
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    Re: Getting my feet wet on the dark side, and other mixed metaphors...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mitch Alland View Post
    Jono, have you been able to figure out the significance of this pixel pitch matter and the pixel density of the D300 vs the D3 that we discussed in another thread?

    —Mitch/Paris
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/
    Hi Mitch
    Sorry, with my small brain it's hard to keep track!

    The only way I can understand it is with respect to the crop factor:

    Put on 200mm lens
    stand on hill
    take photo of building in the distance

    With the D300 you have more resolution of the building, because the sensor is smaller, but with the same pixel count.

    i.e. the building consists of more pixels on the D300 than the D3

    Nothing else seems to make sense really.

    Mind you, you could always put a 300mm lens on the D3 (but of course, you'd have to carry it!)

    incidentally, out of context (intentionally) but my approval of Eric's post didn't mean that I subscribed to his view of your work (FWIW)

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    Re: Getting my feet wet on the dark side, and other mixed metaphors...

    Thanks, Jono. The reason I'm interested in this pixel density issue is that I've initially come to the conclusion that I'm not waiting and pining for a full-frame D300, on which there is speculation, because for street photography I like the greater depth of field of the D300 compared to the D3 and, since I find I'm cropping frequently, mainly because I now find the 3:2 aspect ratio of the D300 more difficult to compose in than the 4:3 of my small sensor camera, the greater pixel density of the D300 seems preferable. That is something that never occurred to me before seeing this mentioned in a couple of Thom Hogan's articles.

    On the Eric matter: not to worry, water under the bridge.

    —Mitch/Paris
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/

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    Re: Getting my feet wet on the dark side, and other mixed metaphors...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mitch Alland View Post
    Thanks, Jono. The reason I'm interested in this pixel density issue is that I've initially come to the conclusion that I'm not waiting and pining for a full-frame D300, on which there is speculation, because for street photography I like the greater depth of field of the D300 compared to the D3 and, since I find I'm cropping frequently, mainly because I now find the 3:2 aspect ratio of the D300 more difficult to compose in than the 4:3 of my small sensor camera, the greater pixel density of the D300 seems preferable. That is something that never occurred to me before seeing this mentioned in a couple of Thom Hogan's articles.

    —Mitch/Paris
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/
    Hi Mitch
    Well, I'm finding it all a little confusing. I was always a 'smaller sensor' kind of a guy, but I'm beginning to realise that a full frame high pixel camera is what might rescue me from MF. Your needs are quite different.

    I'm loving the D3, but if someone came along and said 'would you like me to saw off that vertical grip' I'd leap at it!

    Just this guy you know

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