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New D4 D800 rumour

Stuart Richardson

Active member
Steen -- just to answer your question about S2 owners -- a tripod and mirror lockup is necessary to get the best out of it, though it will do very well handheld too.

My biggest concern on this camera is where the heck are you going to find lenses that are worth putting on it? I had the D3 and a number of lenses, including the 24-70mm, 17-35, and a number of primes. Almost all of them were mush in the corners at wide apertures, and that is on 12mp. Many were mush in the corners even at middle apertures (17-35, 35mm f/2). With 4.9 micron pixels, the diffraction is going to kick in really early too, probably f/11 or so. I am not saying it is impossible to get 36mp on 35mm, but you are only going to be getting the full benefit with the very best lenses at f/8 or f/5.6.

Not sure if that really matters though...even if you don't actually get 36mp of detail, you are going to max out your lenses, which is pretty nice! I still doubt it will compete with MF digital in most respects...it will still have an AA filter, still not have 16 bit color, not have the same tonal range etc. At the same time, it will focus much faster, give you full motion video, fit in a much smaller bag, have a wider range of cheaper lenses, cost a tiny fraction and I am sure have other advantages and disadvantages. Pretty much the only thing it has in common with the S2 for example is the number of pixels. Everything else about the cameras and about how those pixels actually translate into an image are going to be very different!
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
HI Peter
Saved from Sony at the last moment - I'm sure you'll be happier with the D800.
Not completely yet :))

Actually what I cannot get friend with in such a high end DSLR is the EVF. Although I might be completely wrong but maybe I am old fashioned.

But first the D800 still has to materialize ....
 

rayyan

Well-known member
Excellent, those who wanted the D800 have bought it.

The Canon crowd has got the factories running overtime..5dIII.

The Sony crowd have their newest machine.

Congratulations. Enjoy.

I shall enjoy the next ' rumored ' offering too!!

I do not print 6 feet. H*ll my height is not 6 ft.

My D700 is repaired. Seems fine.

I just need to use it more. Lens line-up. I have my 2 lenses too.

I believe D700 shall keep on taking pictures that please me. If I use it right.

Enjoy and please share your 36/40 mp images.

Regards.
 

Steen

Senior Subscriber Member

(...) Enjoy and please share your 36/40 mp images.

Right, Rayyan, the question is just how ... :confused:

36Mp (7360 x 4912 pixels) easily equals a print size of 20x30" @ 240 dpi, without any kind of resizing, let alone bicubic whatever ...

I'd love to print all my keepers at that print size, but since I'm such a darn good photographer it would quickly ruin me to print all my far too many wonderfull keepers at that size :p

A projector brings me a max presentation resolution of lousy 1280x800 i.e. about 1 Mp presentation resolution, not exactly a solution.

So most of my images are viewed on a computer screen.
My 30" Samsung Syncmaster 305T monitor has a max resolution of 2560 x 1600 pixels, i.e. around 4 Mp.
Four Megapixels, that's all, and the rest of the pixels are just thrown overboard - or I'd better start scrolling :banghead:

I would love to see a 6000 x 4000 pixel wall monitor, just for still images, before buying a > 24 Mp camera.
Or why not 7000 x 5000 pixels while we are at it.

Wonder how many years we will have to wait for monitors that fit our cameras resolutionwise ?

Summa Summarum: what the most of us really need at the moment is not more capture resolution, but more presentation resolution.
What is it with the photo industry :rolleyes:

Samsung, are you listening, the potential must be enormous ...
 

Stefan Steib

Active member
Relax Steen:
8k camera and 8k 85" LCD Monitor made by Sharp
And Eizo has now a 4k display (at 25000€) see here:

http://www.eizo.com/global/products/duravision/fdh3601/index.html

All a bit expensive though...........
But hey- who cares for money ?

Greetings from Munich
Stefan
 

Steen

Senior Subscriber Member


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9U7e_quvkPQ&feature=related


Stefan, that sounds more like it is a dedicated television broadcast concept to be released around year 2020.
Let's hope that parts of the technology trickle down into computer monitors much sooner than that.

The reason why I imagine it would be doable already today (and at a fraction of the €25.000 / $36,000 Eizo price :eek: ) is that for electronic presentation of still images we don't need much speed for updating a large screen with many millions of pixels.
It could just take all the time needed. I could easily do with a slow monitor for still images only, so I don't need a fast graphics card like in the children's gaming computers.

With all the many millions of digital pictures taken every day, I believe there is a gigantic market for high resolution image presentation.

Occupy Wall Screens Now ... :lecture:
 

Stefan Steib

Active member
Steen

we are on the way - it´s already coming down in price for 3840x2160 pixel:

http://www.tested.com/news/55-inch-4k-toshiba-tv-does-glasses-free-passive-3d/2832/

it´s "ONLY" 7999,-€

and here samsung:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LF5wosF6BjY&feature=related

Do you remember "Total recall" with Arnold Schwarzenegger. In the very beginning of this film he sits at breakfast in his kitchen with his (believed to be) wife Sharon Stone and the walls are the displays, to be switched to a television part or back to a landscape. look here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzWyFwFIUpY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmKy8an48EA

We are on the way and it will not take so long. 50" Plasmas or LCD´s do cost 500 € now. In 5 Years 4k or 8k 100" screens will have the same price tag. This is mass production, a massive demand and a platform for future standard communication and media.

Greetings from Munich
Stefan
 

rayyan

Well-known member
Steen..simple mind, simple vision, simple life. Simple things suffice.

Euro 500.00 could buy a lot of food. Priorities also somewhere!!

Best to you and yours.
 

Steen

Senior Subscriber Member

Steen -- just to answer your question about S2 owners -- a tripod and mirror lockup is necessary to get the best out of it, though it will do very well handheld too.

My biggest concern on this camera is where the heck are you going to find lenses that are worth putting on it? I had the D3 and a number of lenses, including the 24-70mm, 17-35, and a number of primes. Almost all of them were mush in the corners at wide apertures, and that is on 12mp. Many were mush in the corners even at middle apertures (17-35, 35mm f/2). With 4.9 micron pixels, the diffraction is going to kick in really early too, probably f/11 or so. I am not saying it is impossible to get 36mp on 35mm, but you are only going to be getting the full benefit with the very best lenses at f/8 or f/5.6.

Not sure if that really matters though...even if you don't actually get 36mp of detail, you are going to max out your lenses, which is pretty nice! I still doubt it will compete with MF digital in most respects...it will still have an AA filter, still not have 16 bit color, not have the same tonal range etc. At the same time, it will focus much faster, give you full motion video, fit in a much smaller bag, have a wider range of cheaper lenses, cost a tiny fraction and I am sure have other advantages and disadvantages. Pretty much the only thing it has in common with the S2 for example is the number of pixels. Everything else about the cameras and about how those pixels actually translate into an image are going to be very different!


Thank you, Stuart, for your elaborated answer.

I can hear that we think along some of the same lines with regards to handholdability, optical requirements and diffraction.

Still, I hope you are wrong about the new generation of high resolution cameras still going to have Anti Aliasing filters, but of course we will just have to wait and see about that. I may very well be disappointed here.

Pixel binning ... ?
 
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Steen

Senior Subscriber Member

Indeed interesting to hear these things from the horse's mouth.

On the Sunset Bar board I recently posted a couple of links to Eric Fossum's one-hour lecture:
http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31763
though apparently the thread didn't gain all that much interest.


Maybe most of us are too busy to watch a one-hour lecture.

The first 4½ minute is an introduction of Eric Fossum himself, and the first 20 minutes are primarily about potential risks to society of the ways technology can be used.

So you may actually skip the first 20 minutes and jump directly into the "Science and Technology" chapter at 20:57 if you prefer so.

Personally I was especially interested in the part about diffraction, which can be found at about 24:20 ...

and in reduced pixel sizes at about 43:21

I have now also added these timestaps in the above mentioned thread about Eric Fossum's lecture, which may be the right place for that discussion since it is valid for all brands.












 

Stefan Steib

Active member
Actually your link rose my interest ! Thanks for that ! ;-)
And because of this I read through some of his presentations on his website, which was ULTRA - INTERESTING !

I still think that many people are sleeping in a status between Analogue and Digital. The next years will show that there will be dramatic paradigm shifts that will plow under significant parts of the old industries whereas there will be the rise of a new, communication based digital product and services chain that will replace about anything as we know it today.

Everybody has to watch his back to be able to start running before this tsunami will hit him.

regards
Stefan
 

Steen

Senior Subscriber Member

(...)
I still think that many people are sleeping in a status between Analogue and Digital. (...)

Yeah, I for one certainly am :eek:

I do not at all like the thought about the flange-to-sensor distance of my beloved F-mount lenses maybe becoming more or less obsolete when the mirrors along with the mechanical shutters will be gone some day in a not too distant future.
 

Jan Brittenson

Senior Subscriber Member
Steen

there already is a scientific solution for that -described for example by one of the most famous people in the knowledge - Eric Fossum

http://ericfossum.com/

see his freely available document on page 8
http://ericfossum.com/Presentations/2011 03 16 Quanta Image Sensor CMOC Yale v2.pdf
Note that the f-stops mentioned in conjunction with the diffraction limit refers to pupil sizes (and in practice probably only to the entry pupil), and applies to infinity focus, not aperture f-stop as set when shooting. It's the maximum theoretical aperture. Aperture diffraction reduces contrast, so in that sense reduces resolution, but it doesn't project airy disks onto the imager because it's not in focus. As a result stopping down an f/2.8 lens to f/22 doesn't diffract like a lens with a barrel diameter of f/22 would. All you get is contrast loss. And less sharp aperture shapes in the background.
 
V

Vivek

Guest
Note that the f-stops mentioned in conjunction with the diffraction limit refers to pupil sizes (and in practice probably only to the entry pupil), and applies to infinity focus, not aperture f-stop as set when shooting. It's the maximum theoretical aperture. Aperture diffraction reduces contrast, so in that sense reduces resolution, but it doesn't project airy disks onto the imager because it's not in focus. As a result stopping down an f/2.8 lens to f/22 doesn't diffract like a lens with a barrel diameter of f/22 would. All you get is contrast loss. And less sharp aperture shapes in the background.

Jan, One of the most intriguing and original posts I have read in a long time, anywhere.:)

Would you please expand on that (the ones highlighted)?
(the reason I ask is that normally pupil sizes for a given format lens relates directly to the f stops. If you could provide some examples where that isn't the case, it would be very useful).


Good points on the infinity focus f stops and the reference to effective apertures and this:
All you get is contrast loss. And less sharp aperture shapes in the background.
(bodes well with my observations in actual practice)!


Thanks!:)
 
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Jan Brittenson

Senior Subscriber Member
I just think it's easier to increase the size of the rear element, especially for wide angles, than for the front element. The front is probably a much greater concern when designing a lens. And perhaps, by correlation, the front virtual pupil. As long as the rear element fits in the mount end of the barrel, and doesn't constrict the rear pupil view it would seem much less of a design consideration. But I'm just guessing.
 
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