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New D4 D800 rumour

Steen

Senior Subscriber Member

I think we all recommend services and / or products now and then, at least I do if I think I have a good tip to share with the rest of you.
And in case I have any affiliation with the company or brand I recommend, I'll just tell you so.

- - - - -

Anyway, with regards to AA filter removal, I consider buying the Nikon D700 successor for two main reasons.
I want the big and bright viewfinder that comes with an FX sensor (I have this viewfinder obsession, that's why I like DSLRs).
And, I am tempted by the rumored non-AA filter version of the "D800".

But some people have warned me that I will probably experience so much moiré that I will most likely regret going with the non-AA filter version.

Stefan, what is your experience with the AA filter removal on your 5DII, does the moiré bother you a lot when shooting in natural, available light ?
In your above comment it sounds like the gains outweigh the disadvantages ?

Would you recommend that I go with the non-AA version if buy the D800 ?
Still, it also depends on the price level if I'm going to buy it at all.

All good advices on this are highly appreciated.
 
V

Vivek

Guest
Steen, The rumored D800 without AA would still have an UV/IR cut filter (that also normally- based on the current models of Nikon-doubles as the dust shaker). If anyone is offering a do it all with the dust shaker intact, beware.

I have been shooting with many cams (Nikon, Olympus, Panasonic, Sony..) in the past 6 years without any AA filter.

While using a 10mp Olympus with a Leica R 50/2, I saw very visible moire in contrasty light.

Cams with higher pixel density, this is less of an issue, particularly if you are using old Nikon manual focus glass (barring very very few like the 80/2.8 F3AF or the UV-Nikkor 105/4.5). You also may find moire an issue with the 50/1.4 ZF at certain apertures and light.
 

Stefan Steib

Active member
First of all - I used the wrong word- better is cooperation , but on a nonfinancial base. I am not getting any from his turnaround nor does he get any from mine. We just think about doing new products together.

Steen - I can tell this was the best spent money ( I paid the full price Vivek !) since a long time. It is possible to just remove the Antialiasing, but I decided to have a full open chip as I wanted to go back to the roots (used Dicomed´s bigshot and scanbacks like this, we had a lot of fun with IR on the old Leafs and did plenty of Repros with contrasty HDI´s of the first generations <Kobold> which probably where emitting UV like crazy -same with the Musch 16000 ws generator and heads that we had at Reger Studios). The 21Mpix of the 5DMK2 are perfect for this and I suspect the 36MPIx of an D4 D800 would be even better. Several reasons:

the finer the pixel pitch the smaller the sensitivity to Moiree. If any occurs (which happens very rarely with the 5DMk2) just move some centimeters for- or backwards and it disappears. The finer the pixels get the smaller the needed change in frequency will be, so the probability you get any is very small (OK if you are studio shooter doing knitware and fashion all day long for layouts - we may talk about it - but then all the MF backs don´t have an anialiasing filter - are they used for Fashion - you bet !)

the lenses may become a bit soft (oversampling) at that resolution which is actually perfect as a physical limiter for Moiree !

As a confirmation I can give you a resumee on the talk I had last year with Guido Krebs from Canon Germany (the one who writes all these Books) and he confirmed that he has also asked in Japan to get future bodies without antialiasing filter as PRO Versions which could be marketed better (see leica) and would even help save costs (any lowpass filter of decent quality costs money of course!).

And yes my sensorcleaning functions perfectly,the removed bluegreen filter is replaced by an optical identic plane Schott glass with same refraction index. It needs SOME knowledge to do this- this is the reason the other companies can´t .

Greetings from Munich
Stefan
 
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Stefan Steib

Active member
See here Lloyd Chambers blog about the Antialiasing filter and the D800:

http://diglloyd.com/blog/2011/20111219_1-NIkon36.html

and I want to add - with software like Phase One Capture you can control Moiree very good and partial, so you can enjoy the higher overall resolution even with the sharpest lenses and - if needed, mask the moiree area and apply the Moiree filter. pretty painless and straight forward.

regards
Stefan
 

Steen

Senior Subscriber Member
AA filter free


Thank you, Vivek and Stefan.

I think I'll stick to my plan then and go with the non-AA filter version. That is, if I buy it at all, it depends on the price - the price needs to indicate that the camera has tool character.

If the rumor is true and the body is born without the AA filter from the beginning, there will be no need for a sensor surgery.

And if the high pixel count with a rather small 4.9 µm pixel pitch is the precondition for Nikon's decision to finally make a non-AA version, then I'll just have to decide once and for all to be happy with all those many millions of pixels :)
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
If high ISO performance is at least as good as in the D700, then this 36MP D800 without AA filter would definitely be my choice! And maybe the initiation to sell my MFD gear ....
 

Stefan Steib

Active member
Actually if the marketing department does not make another decision a camera without an antialiasing filter should be CHEAPER than the one with it ! Maybe not that much, but 20-50 € ?

But I´m nearly sure this will be like the missing Leica red dot - charge for something not being there and call it Professional , which it is, just...... ;-)

Lets see !

Greetings from Munich
Stefan
 
V

Vivek

Guest
Yeah, it should be cheaper and if they sell it without the Bayer filter it should be even less. Take the UV/IR cut filter and the price should go down even further! But would that happen?

I bet it will not!

You know what the achromatic+ sales pitch is? It is a 3 in one digital back. :ROTFL:
 

Stefan Steib

Active member
Vivek

that´s not as simple as you think. The Achromatic+ is made by Phase One for Bearimages in California. The numbers done are very small. Phase does not use this version of the Kodak chip, so they buy it in small numbers - thus the higher price. And as there is a very small market for this also, the sales and service and support efforts are definitely higher than with a normal Phase Back.
And - this is a multipurpose device. Definitely true.
You can do normal color (3 shot with filterwheel + Bluegreen on Lens)
Normal BW with Bluegreen on Lens
UV BW with UV Pass and
N-IR BW with IR Pass
so actually this is a 4 purpose device (whereas most people do not remember the Filter wheels, I do have one left over from My Leaf DCB,
even a Horseman ISS electronic shutter for this, so with a little batching this could give really nice color shots with about the same physical resolution as an 80 Mpix Bayer back )

Greetings from Munich
Stefan
 
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V

Vivek

Guest
Along the same lines...why would Nikon not sell a cam without the AA as sharper than the 36MP 36MP camera? :)
 

Stefan Steib

Active member
Maybe you´re right, but I guess the vast majority of people will buy the AAless version - and then they will probably make some 10k maybe 100k cameras of this, this would probably make a difference, compared to the Achromatic+ ...... ;-)

Regards
Stefan
 
V

Vivek

Guest
Despite the tall claims and the fabulous price, is a there a decent demonstration (manufacturer/dealer/user) of all the capabilities of the Achromatic+ back?:sleep006:

I am not interested in fondling a digi back in person. AFAIK, the claims aren't backed up by any real images done with proper techniques. Plain and simple.
 
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Stefan Steib

Active member
Quite simple - contact Jim Taskett at bearimages.com
he should be able to give you the address of the closest dealer for the US.

Phase has listed the back too, so I guess either the Netherlands Phase distributor EOM Design Dick-Jan van den Berg +31 205858333
or Phase One Germany should be able to set you up for a demo.
Call Carsten Wieser in Cologne Tel.: +49 (0)221/5402260

regards
Stefan Steib
 

fultonpics

New member
so i need a camera for travel stuff where the images will be published and exhibited in large prints. assume the D800 is the way to go rather than D4? just want to get my order in soon. does anyone know if NPS will even acknowledge the camera for early delivery
program?
 
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