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Thread: P6000 announced

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    Senior Member Lars's Avatar
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    P6000 announced

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    Senior Member Lars's Avatar
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    Re: P6000 announced

    According to DPReview, it would seem that Nikon has taken the somewhat strange path of creating a new RAW format "NRW" for the P6000, with limited software compatibility. Not good.
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    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Re: P6000 announced

    When I first saw it, I was absolutely sure that I was going to buy it, but that was before the announcement of the Micro 4/3. It looks good though

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    Re: P6000 announced

    f2.7-5.9 is utterly unnacceptable on such a small zoom range. That and the RAW problem which is getting a lot of nikonites very annoyed - sorry nikon, I think you fluffed it, shame, it's a damn nice looking camera.
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    Re: P6000 announced

    What rocket-scientist came up with the idea of [email protected]#$ RAW processing 'in camera' (or via windows only - camera OS some permutation of Windows CLE?). No thanks.

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    Senior Member Lars's Avatar
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    Re: P6000 announced

    A little side not re the WIC (Windows Imaging Component) codec support in Windows:

    This is an API that allows a codec implementer to provide a rendering of an image format so that any app that is WIC-aware can read any image format if the codec is installed.

    If the codec designates itself as a RAW codec then there is additional raw development functionality that can be implemented in the codec, such as exposure, brightness, contrast, white balance etc.

    This raw development control functionality is optional - it's up to the codec manufacturer (in this case Nikon) to provide, and up to the imaging software to use.

    So while a WIC codec could in theory provide raw development support, in reality I have not seen any commercially available software that relies on the WIC raw development features for raw processing. Most software manufacturers seem to build on DCRAW in some form.

    I have added WIC support to my own software project but found a few limitations that just were not acceptable, so WIC is on hold for now as far as I'm concerned.

    I have to say that I do like the idea and architecture behind WIC - at the core Microsoft did the right thing. The promise of WIC is that any app can read any imaging format if there is a codec available, and the codec provider (usually the camera manufacturer) makes sure that raw data is correctly interpreted into an image.

    The situation right now is that codecs are available for some of the major raw formats but not all. There is no DNG codec from Adobe (a third party DNG codec is available but limited to 8-bit output). The TIFF codec that Microsoft provides is a bit lacking, as is the HDPhoto codec.
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    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Re: P6000 announced

    If I need a Microsoft product to use my camera , I'm back to film

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    Re: P6000 announced

    Lars - great info. Thanks.

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    Senior Member Lars's Avatar
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    Re: P6000 announced

    Jorgen,
    I wouldn't worry about that - like always it's just a matter of the usual suspects (Adobe, Apple, etc.) updating their raw converters.

    What's more important is Nikon pulling a stunt like this and getting the badwill that comes with it. The only logical explanation I can think of is that the technical platform the P6000 is built on (same as P5100?) is different enough from Nikon's DSLRs that supporting NEF became unfeasible somehow. Nevertheless someone somewhere made a bad decision.
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    Re: P6000 announced

    Stupid decision on Nikon's part. It's really time that Leica step up, and not just with a rebadged Panasonic. I haven't drunk the small sensor Kool aid yet - am waiting until somebody gets it right. Seems like the companies are edging closer. Another year or so should get us there.

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: P6000 announced

    This WIC limitation is really stupid. I wonder which idiot from marketing had the saying here

    I was really waiting for this Nikon with RAW capabilities, but will now either wait for the Canon G10 or take the Panasonic LX3.

    STUPID NIKON - Thank you!

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    Re: P6000 announced

    I guess they had to step on their toes sooner or later. At least it's a minor one (given how fast these levels of cameras churn thru the new model iterations_.

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    Re: P6000 announced

    Remember, the rumor mill is still waiting for Thom Hogan's Nikon Super P&S camera with a D60 APS-C sized sensor. Also, there is the whole Micro Four-Thirds system to look at as well.
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    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Re: P6000 announced

    Quote Originally Posted by Lars Vinberg View Post
    Jorgen,
    I wouldn't worry about that - like always it's just a matter of the usual suspects (Adobe, Apple, etc.) updating their raw converters.
    Lars,
    I was kind of joking.... then. Now, I've done some more reading and found that it's actually worse than I thought

    Although there will probably be support with other software in the future, only the idea of linking a new RAW format to anything made by MS is a bad decision. MS is well known to cater mostly for their own needs, and frequently make things "not work" unless you upgrade to their latest Service Pack or whatever.

    Although that will probably not be the case with the P6000 files, just the idea of making the link to MS is difficult to understand, particularly from Nikon, who has defended their right to be different on every street corner, at least up until now.

    WIC may or may not be a good product, but as long as MS is known as the company that pushes new, unproven software down our throats, charging big dollars for the "pleasure", this is a decision that will backfire even if it proves to be good. Although most potential customers for this camera use one or more MS products, many do so because they have to and not because they chose to do so. It's like the communist party of China. It's the biggest in the world, but their great, people-friendly policies are not the reasons why people enroll.

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    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Re: P6000 announced

    Quote Originally Posted by etrigan63 View Post
    Remember, the rumor mill is still waiting for Thom Hogan's Nikon Super P&S camera with a D60 APS-C sized sensor. Also, there is the whole Micro Four-Thirds system to look at as well.
    And the Micro 4/3 cameras will take all my Nikkors (and any other lens that I own) with adapters. I never thought I would look forward to a camera with an EVF

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    Senior Member Lars's Avatar
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    Re: P6000 announced

    Jorgen,

    MS approach to image format support is actually quite open - MS provides the platform, camera vendors make codecs (or plugins if you will).

    This approach can be compared to a closed system, where the OS vendor rolls out updates to the OS in order to support new cameras. This is the case with OSX and Aperture (Aperture ties heavily into Core Image which is the image processing subsystem that Apple provides as a part of OSX).

    The architectural beauty in WIC lies in its extensibility - just like with Photoshop, media players, Aperture, Lightroom, and lots of other products, the system can be extended by third party vendors, without the platform vendor interfering.

    Nikon's raw formats (both NEF and NRW), or any other raw formats for that matter, are in no way linked to Windows. Initial support from Nikon itself for NRW is provided on Windows only, but that says nothing about future software releases. The reason Nikon doesn't ship a plugin for OSX is that Apple doesn't let third party vendors add raw plugins to the OS. Mac users have to wait for Apple to ship updates (which Apple usually promptly does).

    Compare the situation to when a new DSLR camera is released. Initially no software supports it (except for the one that ships with the camera). Eventually we see updates rolled out: DCRAW, Camera Raw, Lightroom, Windows codec, OSX, Aperture, and others. No difference really, the same thing will likely happen with NRW.

    The problem here is Nikon marketing which cannot seem to write a good press release. There are lots of novice opinions based on incorrect assumptions being expressed in various forum re this issue with P6000 and NRW, just because Nikon's communication failed.

    Jorgen, I'm not going to respond to your political analogy, as it's just inappropriate to draw politics into a technical discussion. To keep the quality of this forum at its usual high level, may I suggest that we all avoid such commentary?
    Last edited by Lars; 7th August 2008 at 21:37.
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    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Re: P6000 announced

    Quote Originally Posted by Lars Vinberg View Post
    Jorgen, I'm not going to respond to your political analogy, as it's just inappropriate to draw politics into a technical discussion. To keep the quality of this forum at its usual high level, may I suggest that we all avoid such commentary?
    Sorry for the political analogy, and I'll try to refrain from those in the future, but the problem once very big corporations, like MS, get involved is that politics do become a part of the equation. Some of the comments regarding Nikon's choice of RAW standard for the P6000 do even indicate that this is a political and not a technological decision by Nikon.

  18. #18
    Oxide Blu
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    Re: P6000 announced

    Quote Originally Posted by Lars Vinberg View Post
    Jorgen,

    ... MS provides the platform, camera vendors make codecs (or plugins if you will).


    So, unless the P6000 falls completely on its face, and Nikon never makes another camera with the same NRW-RAW format, it's just a matter of time before everyone (and their dog) has software support for this new RAW format.

    Thanks for the info!
    Last edited by Oxide Blu; 8th August 2008 at 12:04.

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    Senior Subscriber Member Steen's Avatar
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    Re: P6000 announced

    Honestly Lars, I don't see any problem whatsoever with Jorgens analogy (whether it be political or not) exactly because it was just an analogy and nothing but an analogy.
    I mean after all it was not some boring political gospel from a soap box, it was just a rather humorous but very picturesque and descriptive analogy that even I understood, though being a little dense sometimes
    Let's keep the friendly and humorous tone here

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    Senior Member Lars's Avatar
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    Re: P6000 announced

    Bondo (and Jorgen),
    No worries, I just like this place and don't want it to deteriorate like so many others, didn't mean to over-police.
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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: P6000 announced

    Quote Originally Posted by Lars Vinberg View Post
    Jorgen,

    MS approach to image format support is actually quite open - MS provides the platform, camera vendors make codecs (or plugins if you will).
    Question remaining for me is: will Apple ever support this format? I do not think so.

    Thus the P6000 is dead for me (unfortunately) before it is even on the market.

    So again - in my eyes a stupid decision to rely only on this RAW format.

  22. #22
    tetsrfun
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    Re: P6000 announced

    "Thomas Knoll - 8:19pm Aug 7, 08 PST (#4 of 10)

    WIC is Windows only.

    Even on Windows, WIC is basically useless for Camera Raw/Lightroom type applications. "

    http://www.adobeforums.com/webx/.59b61a1b

    Maybe Thomas Knoll is "blowing smoke" but maybe he isn't.

    Steve

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    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Re: P6000 announced

    One of the rumours I've found, and mind you, it's only a rumour, is that it's payback time for camera manufacturers. We know that MS is requiring payments for the FAT standards that Nikon & Co have been using for free for many years, but who knows what other legal claims they have up their sleeve.

    Since MS has more money than they can ever hope to spend anyway, one way to go would be to "offer" camera makers to use their standard for RAW conversion instead of paying, connecting photographers to Windows and not to that fruit brand.

    I wouldn't be surprised if it was true.

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    Senior Member Lars's Avatar
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    Re: P6000 announced

    Well, MS behaves like any large corporation in a dominant market position, set your expectations accordingly. As an end user, I don't care if MS charges camera manufacturers for technology licensing. There is so much of that going on everywhere. I care about the bottom line - the camera pricetag.

    Some good comments by Jeff Schewe and others in the thread Steve linked to above.

    I have to disagree with Thomas' comment in that thread though, WIC itself isn't useless (I have used it experimentally myself to do raw conversion in my software), rather Thomas wanted a cross platform solution to raw processing and wanted independence from the camera manufacturers. By cutting the band to the camera manufacturer he ended up with Adobe's raw conversion screwing up the colors in our photos for years. Now finally Adobe is working on a "profile" solution to patch up the problem. Had Adobe not gone their own way but instead decided to work with the camera manufacturers (through WIC or other interface) we would have had good color in Adobe's products from day one.

    But it's a bit of a chicken/egg scenario - without Adobe using WIC there is less pressure for WIC to evolve, and the interest in providing good codecs is moderate at best. And without good codecs available, who wants to build WIC-compatible software? I don't, not for now at least. So in the end, where MS screwed up with WIC is on the market alliance side - had MS acted humbly and worked with software vendors like Adobe and others to ensure that WIC met vendors' needs then perhaps things would have looked differently today.

    Instead, the situation we have now means that every time a new camera comes out, all raw developer makers have to update their softwares to support the new camera models - not only format, mind you, but also color interpretation. This makes it almost impossible for a small software maker like myself to compete in raw conversion. We went through this at Light Crafts, renting cameras and profiling, and releasing a patch for every new camera model. Believe me, it's a royal PITA. Had there instead been a good and popular codec platform, then making a raw developer module would have been a walk in the park.

    So MS approach with WIC failed mostly because MS provided an open platform for others to use but failed to make it popular among software makers.

    Apple's approach OTOH is a bit of the opposite. Apple likes to stay in control, provide a closed system so it can control all aspects of the user experience. This means Apple has to invest more in updates to its software platform. The outcome is clear though - built-in support for raw format is better in OSX than in Windows.

    So in the end (so far), the Apple's closed platform approach provides a better value for the end users than MS open platform. Draw your own political analogies hehe
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    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Re: P6000 announced

    One of the main problems with anything coming from MS, is that end users have experienced too many broken promises from them, and too many complicated new products or upgrades to existing ones that haven't really helped users anywhere. Rather the opposite sometimes. How many versions of Windows have there been since 95? At least nine, and then there are the unavoidable service packs.

    End users want something that works year after year, with little or no need for upgrades. My G4 Cube is such a machine. I never upgraded the OS, and except for the occasional bomb, it just kept on functioning until the power supply gave in after seven years.

    That's the kind of supplier I want, and that's the kind of supplier Nikon has been in my eyes. A bit slow and very conservative, but I know that most products from their hands are stable platforms for my work and hobby.

    So when they form an alliance with a software developer who has a reputation like MS has, my, and apparently many others' first thought is: I'm not in on this.

    Seen from a publicity point of view, that's as bad a start as you can get, and although not all potential P6000-customers read forums on the internet discussing these issues, many do. That will affect sales.

    Hopefully, it's possible to change the RAW format with a new firmware release. If it isn't, I think we'll see a P6100 very soon. But if Canon launches a G10 at Fotokina, that may be too late already.

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    Senior Member Lars's Avatar
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    Re: P6000 announced

    Here is an interesting thread on this subject, with some Bibble engineers commenting:

    http://support.bibblelabs.com/webboa...ic.php?t=11072
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    Re: P6000 announced

    Quote Originally Posted by Lars Vinberg View Post
    Here is an interesting thread on this subject, with some Bibble engineers commenting:

    http://support.bibblelabs.com/webboa...ic.php?t=11072
    Thanks for this link - very good info and actually confirms what I was thinking

    For me as for many others waiting for a compact Nikon P&S with RAW capabilities this is obviously the show stopper. Bad for Nikon

    I will wait till the Canon G10 arrives, how it looks and what it supports and then decide to get either the G10 or the Panasonic LX3.

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    Senior Member Lars's Avatar
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    Re: P6000 announced

    An update: As expected, Adobe's and Apple's latest raw format updates now support P6000.
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  29. #29
    Oxide Blu
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    Re: P6000 announced

    Quote Originally Posted by Lars Vinberg View Post
    An update: As expected, Adobe's and Apple's latest raw format updates now support P6000.
    Yup. A company (Nikon) doesn't dedicate the resources to designing a new data format for a single unit in a market were the competition's product (and thus, your own line of product) changes frequently. No idea where Nikon is going with this new RAW format but you can expect to see it in many more cameras. It would be foolish for MS, Apple, Adobe and everyone else not to get on board asap. And it would be foolish for Nikon to introduce a new format without knowing that MS, Apple, Adobe, etc are already committed to supporting that format. Wouldn't be surprised if the 3rd parties had the format spec a year before Nikon released the P6000.

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