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Thread: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    The refresh for the Pentax is due out in October it will be interesting to see which sensor they use. I do think that Pentax likes high ISO capability so perhaps they may want the 5n sensor and not the NEX 7 sensor but I have no insight into that.

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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanegashima View Post
    Putting a MF lens in a M43/NEX body is stupid, it's so stupid to use MF this days, even more with and EVF… Is like owning a mercedes-benz body with an steam engine.
    Yeah, results and image quality would say otherwise. If you haven't had the opportunity to photograph with a NEX using legacy MF glass, I can tell you it's the perfect blend getting back to the roots of photography and utilizing modern technology. There are so many great legacy lenses out there (like the Leica rangefinder lenses) that have been forgotten simply because of autofocus. Personally, I use my old Olympus OM lenses, and the images are spectacular. It's has been so much fun shooting this way and has re-energized mine, and many others interest in photography. However, shooting this way is virtually impossible with the V1/J1. Even a pretty wide 24mm lens becomes a 65mm on the v1. Sure you can mount F-mount lenses on it, but even the widest offering, the AF-S DX 10-24mm f/3.5-4.5G ED, becomes a 27-65mm on the 1 series. For someone that mainly shoots superwide, 20mm and below, the entire 1 system is useless. Cruise over to the Sony forum here or Flickr and look at all the folks adapting legacy lenses to the NEX system. You'll see the results are fantastic.

    http://www.flickr.com/groups/nex-old/pool/

    The following is a true story. Once upon a time (1993), a large crippling snow storm hit the Southern United States. Many people were stuck on the roads in their cars. Well, when the storm cleared, an old farmer got out his tractor, the large combine type, and started pulling cars out of the snowbanks. When he reached the woman in the Mercedes and asked her if she needed assistance, she said "I don't want you hooking your tractor up to my $50,000 Mercedes". The old farmer looked at her and said, "It's OK lady, I really didn't want to hook my $250,000 tractor up to your $50,000 Mercedes anyway..."

    Moral of the story, when you have folks Steve Huff putting the $10,000 Leica Noctilux 50mm f/0.95 on a NEX-5 and comparing it favorably to the Leica M9, it speaks pretty highly for the system. This is something that the 1 series will never be able to do, simply because of the crop factor and reduced DOF of the small sensor.

    Good luck with this offering Nikon.
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  3. #53
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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnie Utah View Post
    Yeah, results and image quality would say otherwise. If you haven't had the opportunity to photograph with a NEX using legacy MF glass, I can tell you it's the perfect blend getting back to the roots of photography and utilizing modern technology.
    No, it is not.

    It may be OK for you, but for me is nonesense!

    I don't care how much pretty the good results are, if the photo is just uninteresting.

    I want good IQ, yes, but I also want usability, I want a good method of getting AE and a good AF!

    It's more important for me a good picture of a good moment than 1000 of excelent pictures of a uninteresting subject... just because the lens is cool.

    There are so many great legacy lenses out there (like the Leica rangefinder lenses) that have been forgotten simply because of autofocus. Personally, I use my old Olympus OM lenses, and the images are spectacular. It's has been so much fun shooting this way and has re-energized mine, and many others interest in photography. However, shooting this way is virtually impossible with the V1/J1. Even a pretty wide 24mm lens becomes a 65mm on the v1. Sure you can mount F-mount lenses on it, but even the widest offering, the AF-S DX 10-24mm f/3.5-4.5G ED, becomes a 27-65mm on the 1 series. For someone that mainly shoots superwide, 20mm and below, the entire 1 system is useless. Cruise over to the Sony forum here or Flickr and look at all the folks adapting legacy lenses to the NEX system. You'll see the results are fantastic.
    Yeah... Leica lenses forgoten... really...

    If you really want to shoot with MF rangefinder lenses, you get a M9.

    If you really want to shoot with MF reflex lesnes, you get a 5D Mark II or a D700 and a split prism or microcolar focusing screen and shoot.

    Not a compromise like a NEX5.


    Moral of the story, when you have folks Steve Huff putting the $10,000 Leica Noctilux 50mm f/0.95 on a NEX-5 and comparing it favorably to the Leica M9, it speaks pretty highly for the system. This is something that the 1 series will never be able to do, simply because of the crop factor and reduced DOF of the small sensor.
    Yes, but a Noct-Nikor hooked to a D700 will be ages better than a Noctilux with a NEX5 or even a M9.

    Or a Canon 50mm 1.2L hooked to a 5D Mark II, with AF.

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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Tanegashima,

    I'm not going to disagree with you, because I want your company to continue this line of thinking...



    ...and get left (farther) behind.


    Bottom line: The NEX7 dominates the 1 series. No comparison.
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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnie Utah View Post
    Tanegashima,

    I'm not going to disagree with you, because I want your company to continue this line of thinking...



    ...and get left (farther) behind.


    Bottom line: The NEX7 dominates the 1 series. No comparison.
    They are targeted at completely different users.

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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Almost anyone who complains about shallow DOF that has a Pen or Panasonic micro four thirds needs a good look at the mirror and realize they are making a bit of a double standard argument. The very same thing could have been said (and has been said) about micro four thirds *even* vs APS-C. It's all where you draw that line according to needs.

    You can still do a portrait shot with shallow DOF on a Nikon 1 and more so as more lenses come down the line.

    I really think Nikon has a hit with the consumer market. The thing that seems to be missing is the price.

    - Raist

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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    They are targeted at completely different users.
    I agree, but if you look at the price points, they aren't THAT much different (a few hundred dollars)...

    The NEX-n5 with the kit lens is $200 less expensive than the V1 with the kit lens and beats the v1 in almost every specification. Smaller, lighter, better sensor, higher iso, faster lenses, and better video capability. And this doesn't even get at the ability to put other lenses on the system. Now tell me again why anyone would want the V1?
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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnie Utah View Post
    I agree, but if you look at the price points, they aren't THAT much different (a few hundred dollars)...
    Well, what has been universally said is that the Nikon is over priced. But that "few hundred" is really 33% more for the Sony.

    I'm not defending Nikon in any way. I have the NEX5 and have the NEX7 on order

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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by raist3d View Post
    Almost anyone who complains about shallow DOF that has a Pen or Panasonic micro four thirds needs a good look at the mirror and realize they are making a bit of a double standard argument. The very same thing could have been said (and has been said) about micro four thirds *even* vs APS-C. It's all where you draw that line according to needs.

    You can still do a portrait shot with shallow DOF on a Nikon 1 and more so as more lenses come down the line.

    I really think Nikon has a hit with the consumer market. The thing that seems to be missing is the price.

    - Raist
    That's it!

    I Completely agree!



    For most people, a portrait is turning on the camera on the widest setting and stretch the arm while doing a stupid face...

    So a camera like this even will be an overkill...

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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    I have the NEX5 and have the NEX7 on order
    So I see you agree with me.

    All of this just just hyperbole anyway...
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  11. #61
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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Yes, it's true, the V1 is way overpriced!

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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Finally we agree.

    It is my understanding, that for dealers, the margins on Sony's are better than the margins for Nikon's. If that is true, which camera(s) do you think brick and mortar dealers are going to push?
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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    From what I understood at the NEX3/5 launch time margins for the dealers were horrific on the camera bodies and kits.

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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Actually,

    Thom Hogan's article today is pretty interesting when he talks about sports shooting with an 85mm f1.4 on the V1 at 60fps when your output is for the web.....

    http://www.bythom.com/

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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    From what I understood at the NEX3/5 launch time margins for the dealers were horrific on the camera bodies and kits.
    Ah. I didn't know this, so it might go both ways. We query Wayne (in general terms that is, not specific), he sells all three brands in his shop...
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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    Thom Hogan's article today is pretty interesting when he talks about sports shooting with an 85mm f1.4 on the V1 at 60fps when your output is for the web.....
    I can see it now, a pink v1 and a 85mm f/1.4 on the sidelines of an NFL game.

    His argument falls flat in a couple of areas tho.

    1). In the 10fps mode (and I'm sure 60fps mode too), AF is locked. I'm not sure how usable that would be for a sports shooter. I'm wondering if the 60fps is just extracting images from HD video mode...
    2). iso: With a max base iso of 3200 (yes, it has a high mode of 6400, not sure how usable it is), you lose the couple of stop advantage you have with the fast lens so in my mind it evens out.
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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    http://nikonrumors.com/2011/09/22/po...s-camera.aspx/

    77% vote no on this new camera. Ouch.
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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnie Utah View Post
    I can see it now, a pink v1 and a 85mm f/1.4 on the sidelines of an NFL game.

    His argument falls flat in a couple of areas tho.

    1). In the 10fps mode (and I'm sure 60fps mode too), AF is locked. I'm not sure how usable that would be for a sports shooter. I'm wondering if the 60fps is just extracting images from HD video mode...
    2). iso: With a max base iso of 3200 (yes, it has a high mode of 6400, not sure how usable it is), you lose the couple of stop advantage you have with the fast lens so in my mind it evens out.
    from what I read the high speed modes are all full sized files and that goes to the massive speed for the data being moved....Nikon showed the slide where it was much faster than the D3s ---> bodes well for D4

    Also, as to the 77% - again if you are reading these forums, you don't seem to be the intended target market. Let's back up a few steps here. When Panasonic launched the first mirror less camera they didn't say - hey users, you can bolt on essentially any lenses ever made to our new camera. The ground swell of the legacy lenses and rangefinder lenses started building after the launch when users started getting creative. Give this thing a little time.

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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    again if you are reading these forums, you don't seem to be the intended target market.
    No argument, but could you define the target market given the specs and price tag? Exactly who is this aimed towards?? I sure can't figure it out.

    Soccer mom's and college kids aren't going to buy this as a point and shoot upgrade at this price point.
    Enthusiasts and pros aren't going to buy it as a DSLR replacement with these specs.
    It falls into a consumer black hole.
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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnie Utah View Post
    No argument, but could you define the target market given the specs and price tag?
    That is the problem we declared earlier....seems to be priced wrong.

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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnie Utah View Post
    http://nikonrumors.com/2011/09/22/po...s-camera.aspx/

    77% vote no on this new camera. Ouch.
    You really work for sony, don't you?

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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    seems to be priced wrong.
    To hit the perceived target, it needs to be priced at 1/2 of what it is.
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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    This is somewhat unrelated to the general peeing contest that this thread seems to have turned into while I was sleeping, but: The V1 will make a very decent distortion free, non-degrading 2.7x TC for a D700. Carrying 24, 50 and 85mm primes would with the D700 and V1 would add 65, 135 and 230mm. 6 primes for the price of three, and two cameras with distinctly different personalities that could complement each other in a great way. That would be a real killer travel kit
    Last edited by Jorgen Udvang; 22nd September 2011 at 17:49.

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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    I hope at least you were mildly entertained.

    In the link to Thom Hogan's page he makes a similar sort of case.

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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Oh, but I'm very entertained, and for a change, Thom was kind of entertaining too

    I can say something negative about the V1 too btw. You want proof? Here we go:
    It doesn't have an articulated LCD. Even my Canon A95 from 2004 had that. And since I've mentioned that little Canon, I still sell stock photos taken with that camera. Actually, one of my most sold microstock photos, a night shot from Hong Kong, taken with it hand held, has sold more than 100 times. No, I don't worry much about small sensors and slow lenses.

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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Something else occurred to me while out and about tonight. The battery life for these cameras is an underwhelming 230 for the j1 and more respectable 400 shots for the v1. But what happens when you attach the F-mount adapter an start auto focusing F-mount lenses, not to mention a flash, gps or accessory viewfinder?
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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnie Utah View Post
    Something else occurred to me while out and about tonight. The battery life for these cameras is an underwhelming 230 for the j1 and more respectable 400 shots for the v1. But what happens when you attach the F-mount adapter an start auto focusing F-mount lenses, not to mention a flash, gps or accessory viewfinder?
    Now you are just digging for stuff (I meant to say [email protected]).

    You honestly think the Pannys/Olys/Samsungs/Ricohs/Sonys have better battery life? 400 shots is rated longer than any of the mirrorless cameras on the market and 230 isn't that different than some of the smaller ones that have no room for a giant battery.

    When was the last time you went out to do some serious shooting without a spare battery on a small camera? I can't tell you how many spare Sony's I needed because they get zapped pretty damn fast.

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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    ^^ That's not what I'm saying. The # of shots in all these compacts is about the same. But there is a difference in trying to power a secondary AF adapter for f-mount vs using MF legacy glass. MF using no secondary power, while AF uses alot.
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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    How is it any different than powering a 4/3 lens on a m4/3 body? an Alpha mount lens on a NEX? Other systems have smart adapters.

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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    How is it any different than powering a 4/3 lens on a m4/3 body? an Alpha mount lens on a NEX? Other systems have smart adapters.
    I don't disagree. My point is that there is a huge difference in using AF glass vs MF glass. It will be almost pointless to adapt MF glass to this system.

    Check out these test images. To my untrained eye, it looks like the 5n is superior by at least a couple of stops....
    Last edited by Lonnie Utah; 22nd September 2011 at 19:56.
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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnie Utah View Post
    Tanegashima,

    I'm not going to disagree with you, because I want your company to continue this line of thinking...



    ...and get left (farther) behind.
    Lonnie,

    No disrespect intended but this post comes across as if Nikon's failure is on your personal agenda.

    If that is so, what motivates you?

    If not, perhaps reformulate? Surely you would agree that Nikon getting into the EVIL game heats up the competition which is good for us consumers?

    -Lars
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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanegashima View Post
    That's it!

    I Completely agree!



    For most people, a portrait is turning on the camera on the widest setting and stretch the arm while doing a stupid face...

    So a camera like this even will be an overkill...
    When I wrote what I wrote I mean, seriously, you can do a portrait shot with the Nikon system as it is.

    - Raist

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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnie Utah View Post
    Finally we agree.

    It is my understanding, that for dealers, the margins on Sony's are better than the margins for Nikon's. If that is true, which camera(s) do you think brick and mortar dealers are going to push?
    You don't know that. Not for the new system.

    - Raist

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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnie Utah View Post
    http://nikonrumors.com/2011/09/22/po...s-camera.aspx/

    77% vote no on this new camera. Ouch.
    The people that go and read that website, *are not* the target market of Nikon's camera. As such it's a meaningless poll. Reminds me of the many 43rd rumors polls where they ask a question:

    "So what you think? That lens from Pentax/Canon/Nikon/Sony will make the X system competitor to micro four thirds owners attractive? Would you sell your micro four thirds equipment to go for that other one now?"

    And 95% vote "no". Well, surprise! It's a bit like asking in a church how many that are in the church believe in God. ;-)

    - Raist

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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnie Utah View Post
    Check out these test images. To my untrained eye, it looks like the 5n is superior by at least a couple of stops....
    That link didnt work for me, but I did manage to extract this translated link instead:
    http://www.microsofttranslator.com/B...onique-12.html

    Interesting to note is that the article in the link claims that the V1 sensor is designed but not manufactured by Nikon. Whether that statement is correct can of course be discussed.
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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnie Utah View Post
    Finally we agree.

    It is my understanding, that for dealers, the margins on Sony's are better than the margins for Nikon's. If that is true, which camera(s) do you think brick and mortar dealers are going to push?
    I know several camera shops in this country who threw out Sony when they realised that Sony sometimes sold cameras in their own shops at prices close to wholesale.

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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Interesting remarks from Thom. As Terry says - there are probably a lot of things which you can do with this setup that people haven't yet thought about.

    As for the target audience, I'm sorry but I can see soccer Mom's going for it big time.

    Personally I'm not interested, as I really do want more than 10mp - I don't often want to print 24" prints, but I do sometimes, and I can never tell which shot it's going to be.

    Just this guy you know

  38. #88
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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnie Utah View Post
    ^^ That's not what I'm saying. The # of shots in all these compacts is about the same. But there is a difference in trying to power a secondary AF adapter for f-mount vs using MF legacy glass. MF using no secondary power, while AF uses alot.
    You are so dumb you know?

    You can just put a lens an turn off AF and VR, voilá, "zero" power.

    Or put a MF/screw AF lens on that adapter and take a zillion shots.


    If you are worried about the autonomy, either you are a photojournalist using a WRONG camera, or you are just a bad photographer.

    You don't need more than 24 photos for a day.

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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanegashima View Post
    I want a good method of getting AE and a good AF!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanegashima View Post
    You can just put a lens an turn off AF and VR, voilá, "zero" power.
    Ok, so which one is it? You say you want good AF, be then you tell us to turn AF off to save power? That seems like circular logic to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanegashima View Post
    If you are worried about the autonomy, either you are a photojournalist using a WRONG camera, or you are just a bad photographer.
    And your arguments are so weak that you have to stoop to personal insults. It's OK I have thick skin. But this does nothing to advance your line of reasoning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanegashima View Post
    You don't need more than 24 photos for a day.
    That's rich. Would you care to expound on that for us please?


    I'll say it again, one of the brilliant things about small bodied large sensor cameras is the ability to adapt almost any type of glass to it, which is simply impractical with this system. With the crop factor (small sensor), low resolution, high price, no real size gain over other offerings, lack of tiltable screen, it's just not a practical solution when you start looking at what else is out there.

    I THINK that nikon put this out there with these specs so it would not compete with their DSLR systems (which have been losing market share of the past year or so). That's an OK plan, if you don't have any other competition out there. But you do. You've got m4/3, other mirrorless systems like the NEX, entry level DSLR's, point and shoots and cell phones all trying to get at this mid level market in some way. I'm not sure this camera falls into any niche' right now that allows it to tap into what people want and what they are purchasing.
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  40. #90
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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Good Interview regarding the 1 series from The Imaging Resource. It answered a lot of questions for me.

    http://www.imaging-resource.com/NEWS...maging Company

    A couple of things gleaned from the article. It looks like Nikon put a significant amount or R&D into this camera. Some of the processing stuff going on behind the scenes is pretty impressive really (I still don't think it makes up for the "flaws" of the system, but I was impressed nevertheless).

    The most telling thing in the interview was this:

    Masahiro Suzuki: When we started with this development, it was quite some time ago, it was prior to the Micro Four Thirds launch. So we were actually some steps ahead of those guys, and our aim was to achieve the most for image quality and high performance--especially for speed--responsiveness, compactness, and ease of use. Those factors combined led to this camera. So rather than adopting Micro Four Thirds, we believe this new format is better.
    The design of this camera with regards to sensor makes much more sense now. It seems that the design for this camera was basically set 2ish years ago, before the popularity of mounting MF lenses to these cameras really hit. I would speculate, that at this point Nikon had too much invested in this system to change directions to a large sensor camera.


    There was also some insight as to the target market.
    Masahiro Suzuki: Basically, they’re currently compact-only users, but who are eager to step up, seeking a better quality image; but who feel that a DSLR would be too much, because of the complexity, or the bigger size. So, there's some hesitation for a DSLR.

    Dave Etchells: Okay, so it's kind of the traditional customer that the industry is seeing as the compact system camera user; people that are stepping up who don't want the complexity or size of DLSRs.

    MS: Mmm, yes.
    The question left unanswered by this is all the ones we've already asked here. Will those users pay the prices these cameras are listed at when there are other offerings out there with better specs at the same or lower cost?

    So Lars asked several posts back about why I was taking shots at this little camera. Honestly, it's just brand loyalty sparring, nothing more (But it does help educate me as to what's out there and the +/-'s of all sorts of cameras). But on the other hand, I really couldn't make sense of why this camera had the price and specifications listed. I was honestly confused. Kind of like the X100. From a technical point of view (mainly the fixed lens), that one doesn't make sense to me. However, I totally understand it from a aesthetic point of view. Not to the point of forking over $1,200 for one, but I do understand why folks would. But these little cameras, don't even have the X100 cool factor going for them, and I'm not sure why anyone would rationally, and logically decided they needed one....

    Oh, and this...

    Masahiro Suzuki: We developed it; we engineered and developed this sensor inside Nikon. But for the production side, that is done by our partner.
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  41. #91
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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    I must say I am really overwhelmed by all this enthusiasm to discuss about the merits and/or flaws of this new 1 Nikon system

    For this price, quite honestly if I wanted one, I would just go and buy it and not waste my time arguing if it is a good choice or not.

    After being very sceptic in the beginning, I must say that my mind changed to "this is a real cool little camera system" - not sure if I will not just buy one and one or two lenses

  42. #92
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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    The bit about speed and throughput coupled with a fast F mount prime with phase detect is a VERY interesting way to get fast capture rates, with focus, with fast glass and this is what Thom Hogan was alluding to yesterday.

    Funny they say they were working on this since before m4/3 - Panasonic will say that they were working on this for several years before they launched m4/3.

  43. #93
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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Nevermind.
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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    At 10fps there is full AF -which includes phase detect. Only at 60fps is it locked. From the press release:

    "When the action is happening, users can also shoot at a fast 10 frames per second (fps), with full adaptive AF for frame after frame of images with incredible sharpness and detail. Additionally, the scene can be captured at full resolution up to a staggering 60 fps (AF locked), which is the world's fastest continuous shooting speed."

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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    ^^ Yeah, I mis-remembered and edited my comment (before I saw this post ).
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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Nikon has clearly addressed one of the stumbling stones of electronic photography: Processing power. Few if any digital cameras can measure in responsiveness with even the simplest film SLR, and with an increasing load of processing going on in-camera, as a result of more resolution, electronic viewfinders, optical corrections, "need" for noise free images at astronomical ISO numbers, processing speed has clearly struggled to keep up the pace.

    If these new Nikon camera really delivers in this area, Nikon has done an admirable job, and it will be interesting to see how the technology will influence their future DSLRs, both with regards to speed, responsiveness and design.

  47. #97
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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Yes, and it beats all recent M43 cameras, Samsung, and delievers noisier images than the NEX5, but crispier, with better tonal range and more detailed (i.e. less "noise ninja" than Sony).

    Here: http://www.digitalcamerainfo.com/con...ple-Photos.htm

    Believe if you can.

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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    I was surprised at how much noise there is in the J1 images even at ISO 200.



    Compared to the (now discontinued, NEX-5. In my mind that isn't quite fair. To make it even, they should have used the 5n. Oh, well. It doesn't matter as the NEX-5 appears superior anyway...



    These are un-edited crops right from the images posted on digitalcamerainfo.com.
    Last edited by Lonnie Utah; 25th September 2011 at 15:24.
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  49. #99
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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....



    It's simple, Sony over-process their images right from base ISO, so you can post un-meaningful crops on internet forums...

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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanegashima View Post
    It's simple, Sony over-process their images right from base ISO, so you can post un-meaningful crops on internet forums...
    You really think the nikon crop is better than the sony in this one? What I think your trying to illustrate is the nikon has more detail? However, with all the noise in the J1 image, what do you think is going to happen to the so called "detail" when you apply any sort of noise reduction to the file in post. Bye, bye details. At least with the Sony file, working in RAW, you'd have a chance of pulling the details because there isn't the base luminance noise in the file. I don't really care too much about what a camera JPG engine does to a file, I care about what the RAW files look like. If the noise is that bad in the J1 files AFTER running through the in camera jpg engine, I can't imagine how bad they are in RAW with no NR applied...

    And I'm also not 100% sure that part of what is going on in that photo is the result of the expand DOF in the J1 due to the small sized sensor. From the photo's I've seen from the 1 series on the web, the is basically no background blur on any image I've seen from these cameras, even wide open. The reason I say this is the bundles of thread on the NEX image appear soft on that image. These stick farther out into space than any other thing in the still life (At f/10 this surprises me a little bit, and I'm not 100% sure it's the right answer.) Yet the text on the grey board behind that is sharp on the NEX image. However, you look at the head of the Rosie the Riveter, it appears sharper on the NEX image.

    NEX


    J1


    Edit: If you look at Amazon's top 100 DSLR's, the NEX-7 (with the kit lens) is the top selling mirrorless right now trending upwards in the mid teens (14 when I posted this). The NEX-7 body only is trending up in the low 20's, two versions of the NEX-5n are in the mid to high 20's. The first 1 series offering is the V1 two lens kit in the mid to high 30's with the 1 lens kit is 1 spot lower. In just 6 short days, the J1 has fallen out of the top 100. There are 9 different NEX offerings in the top 100, compared to 3 Nikon 1 series offerings. It looks like lots of people had waited to see what Nikon had up it's sleeve and have decided to pass in favor of the NEX system. Nikon 1 Series = too little, too late.
    Last edited by Lonnie Utah; 26th September 2011 at 06:45.
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