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Thread: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

  1. #101
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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnie Utah View Post
    You really think the nikon crop is better than the sony in this one? What I think your trying to illustrate is the nikon has more detail? However, with all the noise in the J1 image, what do you think is going to happen to the so called "detail" when you apply any sort of noise reduction to the file in post. Bye, bye details. At least with the Sony file, working in RAW, you'd have a chance of pulling the details because there isn't the base luminance noise in the file. I don't really care too much about what a camera JPG engine does to a file, I care about what the RAW files look like. If the noise is that bad in the J1 files AFTER running through the in camera jpg engine, I can't imagine how bad they are in RAW with no NR applied...

    And I'm also not 100% sure that part of what is going on in that photo is the result of the expand DOF in the J1 due to the small sized sensor. From the photo's I've seen from the 1 series on the web, the is basically no background blur on any image I've seen from these cameras, even wide open. The reason I say this is the bundles of thread on the NEX image appear soft on that image. These stick farther out into space than any other thing in the still life (At f/10 this surprises me a little bit, and I'm not 100% sure it's the right answer.) Yet the text on the grey board behind that is sharp on the NEX image. However, you look at the head of the Rosie the Riveter, it appears sharper on the NEX image.

    NEX


    J1


    Edit: If you look at Amazon's top 100 DSLR's, the NEX-7 (with the kit lens) is the top selling mirrorless right now trending upwards in the mid teens (14 when I posted this). The NEX-7 body only is trending up in the low 20's, two versions of the NEX-5n are in the mid to high 20's. The first 1 series offering is the V1 two lens kit in the mid to high 30's with the 1 lens kit is 1 spot lower. In just 6 short days, the J1 has fallen out of the top 100. There are 9 different NEX offerings in the top 100, compared to 3 Nikon 1 series offerings. It looks like lots of people had waited to see what Nikon had up it's sleeve and have decided to pass in favor of the NEX system. Nikon 1 Series = too little, too late.


    Nikon J1 is 10MP, NEX5 isn't.

    Nobody's saying that Sony is better or worse. It's just you comparing the Nikon 1 to the NEX5, and you got what it is.

    you'd have a chance of pulling the details because there isn't the base luminance noise in the file.
    No, what you'll get will be jagged contours.

    Luminance noise isn't a problem at all…

    If the noise is that bad in the J1 files AFTER running through the in camera jpg engine
    Who said you that it passed some kind of NR?

    Whatever, it has more details than the Sony's, look at the color strings, Sony looks like a p&s camera.
    Last edited by Bob; 26th September 2011 at 07:29. Reason: offensive to another member

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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanegashima View Post
    Nikon J1 is 10MP, NEX5 isn't.
    Well, Nikon is the one that decided to bring a knife to a gun fight....

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanegashima View Post
    Nobody's saying that Sony is better or worse. It's just you comparing the Nikon 1 to the NEX5, and you got what it is.
    I am. I'm saying the J1 is worse than the NEX. I think lots of other people share my conclusions. I would say that early sales figures for these systems validate my conclusions.

    Another 800 iso sample. This one from http://www.imaging-resource.com/

    NEX5


    J1


    Again, looking at these images, you can see more noise and lack of detail from the J1. This holds true in ever comparison of sample images I've seen. In this case, down scaling the images to the same size makes no difference in the results, the NEX image is sharper. Here's the same image cropped down to 640 pixels wide....

    NEX


    J1


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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnie Utah View Post
    Again, looking at these images, you can see more noise and lack of detail from the J1. This holds true in ever comparison of sample images I've seen. In this case, down scaling the images to the same size makes no difference in the results, the NEX image is sharper. Here's the same image cropped down to 640 pixels wide....

    NEX


    J1


    I understand brand loyalty, but I also understand reality.
    Surely it would be more realistic to upsize the Nikon image to the same size as the Sony image? After all, you're throwing away detail from the Sony crop to compare it with the Nikon?!

    I haven't really done the research to check this, but it seems to me a perfect example of what MR at Luminous Landscape was saying with respect to judging noise - everyone does it at 100%, which is okay if you're looking at the same mp file (even if it's a different sized sensor), but if you aren't (as in this case) it's actually rather unfair on the sensor with more pixels, because you're looking at a smaller proportion of the image.

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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Surely it would be more realistic to upsize the Nikon image to the same size as the Sony image? After all, you're throwing away detail from the Sony crop to compare it with the Nikon?!

    I haven't really done the research to check this, but it seems to me a perfect example of what MR at Luminous Landscape was saying with respect to judging noise - everyone does it at 100%, which is okay if you're looking at the same mp file (even if it's a different sized sensor), but if you aren't (as in this case) it's actually rather unfair on the sensor with more pixels, because you're looking at a smaller proportion of the image.
    Very good point, Jono.
    Noise should be judged based on an image of the same subject covering the same dimensions and then processed to produce images of the same size.
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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Surely it would be more realistic to upsize the Nikon image to the same size as the Sony image? After all, you're throwing away detail from the Sony crop to compare it with the Nikon?!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    Very good point, Jono.
    Noise should be judged based on an image of the same subject covering the same dimensions and then processed to produce images of the same size.
    -bob
    Well I agree, but I didn't won't folks to scream that I was being unfair to the Nikon by up scaling it's images to match the Sony. However, on the other hand, Nikon chose the sensor size and knew the limitations of that when they made that decision.

    Jono, could you link us to that discussion at LL? I'd be interested in reading it.
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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnie Utah View Post
    Well I agree, but I didn't won't folks to scream that I was being unfair to the Nikon by up scaling it's images to match the Sony. However, on the other hand, Nikon chose the sensor size and knew the limitations of that when they made that decision.
    Hmmm, I didn't mean it quite that way.
    Adjust the scaling of the original image via distance to subject so that the same subject is covered in whatever the number of pixels are available.
    "Optical" scaling so to speak.

    The process both for comparison to produce the same print size. Here one would use digital scaling.
    Then feel free to make equivalent area crops, but at realistic print dimensions.
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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    Hmmm, I didn't mean it quite that way.
    Adjust the scaling of the original image via distance to subject so that the same subject is covered in whatever the number of pixels are available.
    "Optical" scaling so to speak.
    If you look at the original image resource images, this is what they did. The part that is missing is second part, scaling the images to the same pixel dimensions digitally...

    I'll agree with the pixel peeping comments, but doesn't logic dictate that if and image looks better at 100% zoom, it should look better at full sized print resolutions? The better it looks, the larger prints you can make too. This also doesn't address the fact that having better detail and noise handling qualities at 100% gives the user the ability to crop the image and still retain decent quality when printed.
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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnie Utah View Post
    If you look at the original image resource images, this is what they did. The part that is missing is second part, scaling the images to the same pixel dimensions digitally...

    I'll agree with the pixel peeping comments, but doesn't logic dictate that if and image looks better at 100% zoom, it should look better at full sized print resolutions? The better it looks, the larger prints you can make too. This also doesn't address the fact that having better detail and noise handling qualities at 100% gives the user the ability to crop the image and still retain decent quality when printed.
    You might think that logic would dictate that but actually it does not seem to work that way.
    Independent viewers often prefer a certain degree of noise in the image and consider the image to be too "digital" unless there is some noise. Film is very noisy compared to most of what we now shoot.
    Besides noise amount (rms luminance noise) the nature of the color noise as well as pattern noise or lack thereof is very important from a subjective point of view.
    I would say that most or many reviewers make the wrong judgement about noise at 100% since there is just not enough of the image being judged.
    So no, some noise is good providing that it is of a certain type and no noise looks worse to many viewers.
    So do the whole experiment THEN make a judgement.
    Noise and resolution is appropriate and can be judged only based on the end use and size of the image.
    -bob

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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnie Utah View Post
    I'll agree with the pixel peeping comments, but doesn't logic dictate that if and image looks better at 100% zoom, it should look better at full sized print resolutions?
    Only if the two files have the same number of MP. Certainly not in this case

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnie Utah View Post
    The better it looks, the larger prints you can make too. This also doesn't address the fact that having better detail and noise handling qualities at 100% gives the user the ability to crop the image and still retain decent quality when printed.
    But still it depends on the actual number of MP in the images you're comparing.

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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnie Utah View Post
    Jono, could you link us to that discussion at LL? I'd be interested in reading it.
    HI Lonnie
    it's in the A65 review:

    A65 first impressions at LL

    Scroll down to where it says 'A word of caution'

    all the best

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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Oh the size of print and the resolution needed depends utterly on the viewing distance.
    There are a lot of 10 mpx billboards out there.
    Generalizations are a trap.
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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    More seriously.
    I was always in the "let's have bigger pixels and less of them" camp until I had to do two wedding books at the same time - both shot in grisly english autumn light.
    One was with the D700 (universally acknowledged as a HIGH ISO winner)
    The other was with the Sony A900 (universally accepted to have poor high ISO characteristics).

    Both were done as Blurb books - so the output size was the same.

    In actual fact, the higher resolution of the Sony more than made up for the extra noise (in effect I was practicing pixel binning by scaling down to 12"x15" or whatever the large blurb books are). But there was also extra 'croppability' in the A900 file.

    These days I like the extra resolution - even if I'm not going to use it for huge prints (although it does of course mean that I CAN do huge prints if I want to). Larger sampling rates are usually better than smaller sampling rates! (even if that is a generalisational trap!).

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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Yup, and one reason I shoot 80mpx files usually.
    More flexibility and versatile.
    Also makes you look taller, people buy you more drinks, and members of the opposite sex take notice.

    Ah, I am kidding of course.
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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    Yup, and one reason I shoot 80mpx files usually.
    More flexibility and versatile.
    Also makes you look taller, people buy you more drinks, and members of the opposite sex take notice.

    Ah, I am kidding of course.
    -bob
    Mmm yes - but I already drink to much, and members of the opposite sex have always found me irresistible . . . perhaps that's why I've never gone medium format?

    and so am I kidding of course (at least about the opposite sex).

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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    But actually this topic was front and center in a stream of emails I had this weekend. The question was why not get the NEX 5N for better ISO performance than go for the NEX7's resolution..... I want the best of both worlds. I want the resolution so at low ISO I can print or crop however I want and at high ISO by the time I reduce 24mp back to 16mp (a full 1/3 reduction) I'm probably no worse off and get a similar performance.

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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    But actually this topic was front and center in a stream of emails I had this weekend. The question was why not get the NEX 5N for better ISO performance than go for the NEX7's resolution..... I want the best of both worlds. I want the resolution so at low ISO I can print or crop however I want and at high ISO by the time I reduce 24mp back to 16mp (a full 1/3 reduction) I'm probably no worse off and get a similar performance.
    Exactly Terry - I'm almost certain that 'pixel binning' in post processing on the NEX7 will give you equivalent high ISO performance . . . but upsizing on the NEX5 will certainly not give you the same resolution.

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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Exactly Terry - I'm almost certain that 'pixel binning' in post processing on the NEX7 will give you equivalent high ISO performance . . . but upsizing on the NEX5 will certainly not give you the same resolution.
    There may be a relationship that one could draw between rms luminance noise and resolution tradeoffs, but like Jono, I usually go for more resolution since no amount of processing can get that back

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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    There may be a relationship that one could draw between rms luminance noise and resolution tradeoffs, but like Jono, I usually go for more resolution since no amount of processing can get that back
    ^^ This. Which is why the NEX-5n beats the V1 hands down. Not only does it have more MP, it also has better noise handling characteristics than the V1. Win, win. (It also costs $200 less so win, win, win.)
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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Yes, but I think there are some interesting qualities in the J1 that should not be overlooked. The J1 also makes a lot more sense for someone invested in Nikon glass over the NEX.

    On my trip to Ireland in 2010 I took 1 A900 body and 2 NEX 5's as backups. The NEX or Nikons make a perfectly acceptable "digital back" solution to the kit and allows you to have a back up that does double duty. It serves as a real camera backup and as a compact system at the same time.

    I don't look at the sales of Sony or the Nikon system on Amazon right now since neither are available and it isn't clear who is taking pre-orders how many people are double or triple ordering, etc. Reliable sales information on either system is jut not reliable at this point in time.

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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Well, having made my remarks about resolution I think that the V1 is a thoroughly sensible and well thought through concept. . . . and unlike some, I think it'll be a spectacular success, mainly as a single system for enthusiasts.

    I'd just rather have a NEX 7! (or a NEX 5n come to that). But then I don't need to shoot sports at 60fps, and I'm not happy with a 10mp limit (whether I'm right or wrong about it).

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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    The J1 also makes a lot more sense for someone invested in Nikon glass over the NEX.
    With the 2.7 crop factor, I'm not convinced. This is especially true for someone like myself that shoots mostly ultra wide angle. The vast majority of my shots when landscaping are in the 16 mm range. To get that same field of view on the V1, I'd have to use a 6mm fisheye vs an 11mm lens on the nex. For someone with F-mount glass that was interested in that range, it would be just as easy and more practical to buy an F-mount to NEX adapter and manually focus.

    For my own personal photography, this is of utmost interest to me as much of my work is well off the beaten path covering long distances with big elevation gains, carrying heavy loads. Even when streamlined down to my "quick kit", a full frame body, a few F/2.8 lenses and a tripod (not to mention non-photographic essentials like water, food and other supplies), my pack is pretty heavy (15-20 lbs). The thought of something like a NEX body lightening the load while still giving me the ability to easily print up to 24x36" is very appealing.

    Edit: Here's an idea of how much gear I lug around on a regular basis. Ironically, this well know spot is right off the road. :lol:
    Last edited by Lonnie Utah; 26th September 2011 at 11:20.
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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnie Utah View Post
    With the 2.7 crop factor, I'm not convinced. This is especially true for someone like myself that shoots mostly ultra wide angle. The vast majority of my shots when landscaping are in the 16 mm range. To get that same field of view on the V1, I'd have to use a 6mm fisheye vs an 11mm lens on the nex. For someone with F-mount glass that was interested in that range, it would be just as easy and more practical to buy an F-mount to NEX adapter and manually focus.
    [/img]
    Well Lonnie - the answer is easy - you need an M9. You can have better resolution than any SLR will manage for less than a kilo with an M9 and a WATE.
    But I agree a NEX is much more practical than the new Nikon
    But I don't think the new Nikon is aimed at you!

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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    you need an M9.
    If you want to buy me one then AWESOME! If not, I think I just have to toughen up and bare the load...
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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Lonnie, please don't "bare" anything!

    Honestly, someone needs to link the spelling auto-correction to a grammar checker or we will have to "bear" more of these statements.
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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnie Utah View Post
    ^^ This. Which is why the NEX-5n beats the V1 hands down. Not only does it have more MP, it also has better noise handling characteristics than the V1. Win, win. (It also costs $200 less so win, win, win.)
    Buy what you want but it is not win, win, win.
    More likely it is compromise, compromise, compromise.
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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnie Utah View Post
    With the 2.7 crop factor, I'm not convinced. This is especially true for someone like myself that shoots mostly ultra wide angle. The vast majority of my shots when landscaping are in the 16 mm range. To get that same field of view on the V1, I'd have to use a 6mm fisheye vs an 11mm lens on the nex. For someone with F-mount glass that was interested in that range, it would be just as easy and more practical to buy an F-mount to NEX adapter and manually focus.

    For my own personal photography, this is of utmost interest to me as much of my work is well off the beaten path covering long distances with big elevation gains, carrying heavy loads. Even when streamlined down to my "quick kit", a full frame body, a few F/2.8 lenses and a tripod (not to mention non-photographic essentials like water, food and other supplies), my pack is pretty heavy (15-20 lbs). The thought of something like a NEX body lightening the load while still giving me the ability to easily print up to 24x36" is very appealing.

    Edit: Here's an idea of how much gear I lug around on a regular basis. Ironically, this well know spot is right off the road. :lol:

    Yup,
    I think you might be well to pick up a full frame anything and three lenses and go light.
    that pack will kill you someday
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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    Buy what you want but it is not win, win, win.
    More likely it is compromise, compromise, compromise.
    -bob
    You're obviously not a fan of "the Office", as my reply was a veiled pop culture reference....
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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnie Utah View Post
    You're obviously not a fan of "the Office", as my reply was a veiled pop culture reference....
    Ah that explains it.
    Maybe explains all of it.
    -bob

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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnie Utah View Post
    With the 2.7 crop factor, I'm not convinced. This is especially true for someone like myself that shoots mostly ultra wide angle. The vast majority of my shots when landscaping are in the 16 mm range. To get that same field of view on the V1, I'd have to use a 6mm fisheye vs an 11mm lens on the nex. For someone with F-mount glass that was interested in that range, it would be just as easy and more practical to buy an F-mount to NEX adapter and manually focus.
    The only EVIL system that has a lens with a 16mm eqv. FOV is m4/3 with the rather good Panasonic 7-14mm. The widest lens for NEX at the moment is the 16mm (24mm eqv.), and even on NEX cameras with less pixels, it isn't a particularly good lens, at least not with regards to sharpness. Samples I've seen with the 5n taken with the 18-55mm at wide angles don't look good in the corners either, and I don't see any reason to believe that it will improve by increasing the pixel count by 50%.

    Nikon has already shown a mock-up of a "wide-angle landscape zoom" lens, so there's clearly something in the making. We obviously don't know how good or bad that lens will be, but if anything, it's easier to make a good WA lens for a small sensor than for a larger one if the physical size of the lens is the same.

    When I discussed NEX with the man who on a regular basis empties my wallet in exchange for optical items made from glass, plastic and aluminium yesterday and asked him if the NEX 7 would make him take up Sony again (which he gave up a year ago for many good reasons), he replied that he could probably sell a lot of them. "But what when people start asking for good quality lenses? Basically, there's only one at the moment, the 24mm.", he answered.

    Interestingly, while internet fora are full of Nikon vs. Sony discussions at the moment, m4/3 seems to be the only one of these systems that is useable on a broad basis, with lots of good quality lenses and a wide choice of bodies. If the lenses are up to it, shooting with the NEX 7 would enable me to print 26% larger than with a GH2 used in 3:2 mode, but from what I've seen so far, I don't think they are up to it, at least not in the corners, which make those 26% a rather theoretical value.

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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Nikon has already shown a mock-up of a "wide-angle landscape zoom" lens, so there's clearly something in the making. We obviously don't know how good or bad that lens will be, but if anything, it's easier to make a good WA lens for a small sensor than for a larger one if the physical size of the lens is the same.
    C'mon Jorgen - I'm sure that the Nikon will be fab, but just like the m4.3 cameras (the excellent 7-14 lens notwithstanding) . . . This is not the perfect camera for landscape (and nor are they) - even if the corners are sharp.

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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    The widest lens for NEX at the moment is the 16mm (24mm eqv.),
    Not true. There are several A-mount lenses from multiple lens makers in the 11-18 or 10-20mm range that will fit on the NEX with the LA-EA1 and soon to be release LA-EA2. The LA-EA2 will even PDAF those lenses for you.

    What you MEANT to say was there are no E-mount lenses for the NEX in that range. This 100% get's to my main issue with the 1 series. Even if you did put F-mount lenses on them, they aren't in the equl focal lengths that I need, and it's doubtful that a quality lens could be made that goes that wide given the physical constraints of the system.
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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnie Utah View Post
    Not true. There are several A-mount lenses from multiple lens makers in the 11-18 or 10-20mm range that will fit on the NEX with the LA-EA1 and soon to be release LA-EA2. The LA-EA2 will even PDAF those lenses for you.

    What you MEANT to say was there are no E-mount lenses for the NEX in that range. This 100% get's to my main issue with the 1 series. Even if you did put F-mount lenses on them, they aren't in the equl focal lengths that I need, and it's doubtful that a quality lens could be made that goes that wide given the physical constraints of the system.
    Lonnie - since you have decided in a hundred different ways that the Nikon makes no sense for you, why do you hang out on this thread?

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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnie Utah View Post
    Not true. There are several A-mount lenses from multiple lens makers in the 11-18 or 10-20mm range that will fit on the NEX with the LA-EA1 and soon to be release LA-EA2. The LA-EA2 will even PDAF those lenses for you.

    What you MEANT to say was there are no E-mount lenses for the NEX in that range. This 100% get's to my main issue with the 1 series. Even if you did put F-mount lenses on them, they aren't in the equl focal lengths that I need, and it's doubtful that a quality lens could be made that goes that wide given the physical constraints of the system.
    One of the points with EVIL systems is compactness. If I have to use DSLR lenses to get sharp photos, I might as well buy a DSLR. The size of the body is not the biggest advantage with EVIL. Lens size is (except for Sony, since the NEX lenses are almost as large as DSLR lenses anyway).

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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    C'mon Jorgen - I'm sure that the Nikon will be fab, but just like the m4.3 cameras (the excellent 7-14 lens notwithstanding) . . . This is not the perfect camera for landscape (and nor are they) - even if the corners are sharp.
    If landscape photography includes a 48 hour trek or many days and nights on trains, buses, boats and planes, they are.

    I do less than 10% of my photography at more than ISO 400 but 100% of my photography with sharp lenses. So which should I choose, clean high ISO or sharp lenses?

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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    If landscape photography includes a 48 hour trek or many days and nights on trains, buses, boats and planes, they are.

    I do less than 10% of my photography at more than ISO 400 but 100% of my photography with sharp lenses. So which should I choose, clean high ISO or sharp lenses?
    There are good reasons for either side of the argument. One and perhaps the most important one is your style and how they fit.
    I know quite a few folks especially amongst the younger crowd that claim that sharpness is over-rated. I have a hard time agreeing but that pretty much indicates that their is a choice for everyone out there.
    -bob

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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    There are good reasons for either side of the argument. One and perhaps the most important one is your style and how they fit.
    I know quite a few folks especially amongst the younger crowd that claim that sharpness is over-rated. I have a hard time agreeing but that pretty much indicates that their is a choice for everyone out there.
    -bob
    Sharpness is overrated, but it's great to have a choice. The same goes for high ISO I guess, if one needs it. What puzzles me is how we went from doing rather well with ISO 400 10 years ago to needing at least 6400 these days. With film, I shot more than 50% with Velvia. That was ISO 50 for those with a short memory, 7 - seven - stops slower than 6400. That's like going from f/1.4 to f/16. What are people using all those fast primes for? Mantelpiece decorations?

    Oh, and the young crowd... they use camera phones, don't they? I know one who is on the waiting list for a Nokia N9. It will replace his Nikon, I believe. For most people, that's probably a more relevant choice than any NEX, 1 or m4/3. I'm of the impression that it can be used for wireless phone calls as well. Technology nowadays, eh?

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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    One of the points with EVIL systems is compactness. If I have to use DSLR lenses to get sharp photos, I might as well buy a DSLR. The size of the body is not the biggest advantage with EVIL. Lens size is (except for Sony, since the NEX lenses are almost as large as DSLR lenses anyway).
    I tell you what. Why don't you come out here with me, and we'll go a little hiking. Let's say nothing really hard, just 10-15 miles (16-24 Km) with 2,000-3,000 (600-1,000 M) vertical feet of elevation gain at elevations of 9,000-10,000'+ (2,800 - 3,100+ M). You can carry my A900 and I'll carry my nex with equivalent DSLR lenses. When we are done, I'll let you revisit your hypothesis.
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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnie Utah View Post
    I tell you what. Why don't you come out here with me, and we'll go a little hiking. Let's say nothing really hard, just 10-15 miles (16-24 Km) with 2,000-3,000 (600-1,000 M) vertical feet of elevation gain at elevations of 9,000-10,000'+ (2,800 - 3,100+ M). You can carry my A900 and I'll carry my nex with equivalent DSLR lenses. When we are done, I'll let you revisit your hypothesis.
    Thanks, but I'd rather carry my m4/3 gear. More resolution and less weight

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    nay


    As a passionate pixel peeper and nay sayer I recommend that you stick to your 8.5 and 6 m pixel pitch cameras

    My expectation is that this new generation of cameras with pixel sizes around 3.5 - 4 m will require aggressive in-camera noise reduction, optics of unrealistic resolving power and governmental cancellation of diffraction .-)

    Of course, at the end it’s all just a matter of personal preferences.
    Some want pixel quantity, others (like me) prefer pixel quality.



    is this development really what we want ...


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    Re: nay

    Quote Originally Posted by Steen View Post
    As a passionate pixel peeper and nay sayer I recommend that you stick to your 8.5 and 6 m pixel pitch cameras

    My expectation is that this new generation of cameras with pixel sizes around 3.5 - 4 m will require aggressive in-camera noise reduction, optics of unrealistic resolving power and governmental cancellation of diffraction .-)

    Of course, at the end its all just a matter of personal preferences.
    Some want pixel quantity, others (like me) prefer pixel quality.



    is this development really what we want ...

    HI Steen
    I hope you're well - interesting comparison here.
    I remember visiting Minolta . . erm . . . 20 years ago? The same discussion had come up with respect to the Minolta Vectis and the resolving power of lenses.

    The point was that lenses made for smaller film (read sensor) inherently have better resolving power than those made for large sensors (if this were not the case, then phones would be a catastrophe) - I'm no optical specialist, but I believed what I was told!

    So, of course, the argument with respect to the D3s vs the A900 is relevant - but not so relevant between them and the A77 and the V1, because of the smaller sensors.

    Sure, bigger pixels are going to be better for 100% pixel peeping, but in my experience more pixels is often better for printing to a certain size.

    As for noise - I haven't applied noise reduction to anything under 1600 ISO for at least a couple of years - it might be there, but with higher mp it really isn't relevant unless you want to print huge and view from an unreasonably close distance. . . . . . . or view onscreen at 100%!

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    nay


    Hi Jono, Im fine thank you and hope the same is the case in your camp

    I do hope that you are right and I am wrong, but the the pixel peeper and nay sayer part of me is not too optimistic so far.

    I guess Ill just have to wait until I can judge some full resolution samples with my own eyes.

    Do you by any chance have some illustrative full size 24 Mp APS-C examples for peepers like me, despite maybe being just born jpeg captures or whatever ?

    And maybe even compared to the sweet spot 6 m pixel pitch A900 which I suspect already takes us to the border of acceptable diffraction limitation.

    I can agree that more pixels is better for printing to a certain size provided the pixels are actually used for print i.e. the image is not downsized substantially for print.
    Otherwise I think Im usually not able to see the advantage with my own eyes.

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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Physics cannot be fooled.

    With sensors using pixel sizes as small as the A77 or Nikon 1 the limits are pretty much reached for the corresponding lenses. Sure one can get still further, but IQ is not necessarily increasing.

    I suspect though that a big part in that equation for resulting high ISO is not mentioned yet - AA filters. I am pretty sure if Sony or Nikon would put weaker or NO AA filters in front of these sensors, they still could improve final IQ, micro contrast etc. Why these companies still insist on strong AA filters is unclear to me. Leica, Olympus (E5) and MFDB have clearly proved that one can also get stunning results without using AA filters. Actually even much better results compared to AA filters.

    But in general I agree that a pixel size of 3um is to be the reasonable limit for APSC sized sensors. And building optics with higher resolution than 80 lpm is possible, but almost unrealistic if it comes to prices.

    I was shocked when I first compared the output from E5 (12MP but no AA filter and great pro grade lenses) with A77 (24MP, AA filter and just good enough lenses - even if it was Zeiss labeled). The E5 wins hands down WRT IQ, micro contrast and tonality. It is very obvious that just increasing the number of MP does not necessarily increase final IQ.

    And this proves another thing - if you want higher resolution with great IQ, micro contrast and tonality then you have to go for larger sensor size - means either FF SLR or MFDB.

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    an attempt to illustrate the importance of pixel quality


    f/8 was as far as I could go here, already at f/11 visible diffraction set in and blurred the image details

    camera Nikon D300
    sensor width 23.6 mm
    max picture dimension 4288 pixels
    pixel pitch 5.5 m
    required optical resolution 91 line pairs / mm

    I hope that my next camera will have a pixel pitch of at least ~ 6 m, like e.g. the full frame 24 Mp Sony A900 and Nikon D3X.


    click for larger - in some browsers the F11 key maximizes and again minimizes <-> the web browser window


    Nikon D300 Carl Zeiss Makro-Planar 2/100mm ZF 1/50 sec at f/8 ISO 200 Capture NX

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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    One shop in Bangkok is advertising the V1 already ($1,100 for the V1 2 zoom set), and I saw it on display at Nikon today. Looks veeeery nice. Almost tempting, I would say

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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Nah... they were just teasing. Delivery late October, they say...

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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    The Nikon 1 is available in the UK now from Jacobs, if you want to pay the price of a GH2 for something half as good.

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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by dick View Post
    The Nikon 1 is available in the UK now from Jacobs, if you want to pay the price of a GH2 for something half as good.
    depends on what lenses and what system you use. I know from what I've seen usability and controls aren't the strong point of the current cameras but there are people that adding the Nikon makes more sense than adding the GH2 and starting from scratch on lenses.

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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    depends on what lenses and what system you use. I know from what I've seen usability and controls aren't the strong point of the current cameras but there are people that adding the Nikon makes more sense than adding the GH2 and starting from scratch on lenses.
    Add to that the cost of batteries, particularly for those who want to use the original brand ones. The V1 uses the same battery as the D7000 and probably most other Nikon DSLR cameras. The GH2 uses the same battery as... the GH2, and in this country, they cost nearly $100 a piece, if you can find them.

    As a Panasonic and Nikon user, these are real concerns. I still get good results from "old" cameras like D80, D300 and GH1, and in many aspects, the V1 is equal to or better than all of those. Build quality also seems to be better than the Panasonics. So it's a realistic alternative. I doubt that I'll leave Panasonic completely anytime soon, since the GH bodies are very suitable for some of my work, but for travel and casual photography, there will be competition from the small Nikon. I can also see myself carrying a Nikon FX camera plus a V1 body in the future, instead of an FX and a DX, to save weight/space and to have access to two cameras with totally different capabilities.

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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Add to that the cost of batteries, particularly for those who want to use the original brand ones. The V1 uses the same battery as the D7000 and probably most other Nikon DSLR cameras. The GH2 uses the same battery as... the GH2, and in this country, they cost nearly $100 a piece, if you can find them.

    As a Panasonic and Nikon user, these are real concerns. I still get good results from "old" cameras like D80, D300 and GH1, and in many aspects, the V1 is equal to or better than all of those. Build quality also seems to be better than the Panasonics. So it's a realistic alternative. I doubt that I'll leave Panasonic completely anytime soon, since the GH bodies are very suitable for some of my work, but for travel and casual photography, there will be competition from the small Nikon. I can also see myself carrying a Nikon FX camera plus a V1 body in the future, instead of an FX and a DX, to save weight/space and to have access to two cameras with totally different capabilities.
    Good to hear you have found your solution

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    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Good to hear you have found your solution
    Peter,
    I don't have one solution, I have many. Cameras are the ultimate food substitutes

    As mentioned above, I'm not likely to leave m4/3 (it's an ideal system for motor sports among other things), and I'm even getting some 4/3 gear for when I need/feel for an optical viewfinder. So far, I have a couple of excellent 4/3 lenses and one body, and another body and a lens more is hopefully very close. Unfortunately, my E-5 fund disappeared into an F6 the other day, but who knows what the future brings...

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