And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

[Lars]

Tanegashima,

I'm not going to disagree with you, because I want your company to continue this line of thinking...



...and get left (farther) behind.

Lonnie,

No disrespect intended but this post comes across as if Nikon's failure is on your personal agenda.

If that is so, what motivates you?

If not, perhaps reformulate? Surely you would agree that Nikon getting into the EVIL game heats up the competition which is good for us consumers?

-Lars

 

[raist3d]

That's it!

I Completely agree!



For most people, a portrait is turning on the camera on the widest setting and stretch the arm while doing a stupid face...

So a camera like this even will be an overkill...

When I wrote what I wrote I mean, seriously, you can do a portrait shot with the Nikon system as it is.

- Raist

 

[raist3d]

Finally we agree.

It is my understanding, that for dealers, the margins on Sony's are better than the margins for Nikon's. If that is true, which camera(s) do you think brick and mortar dealers are going to push?

You don't know that. Not for the new system.

- Raist

 

[raist3d]

http://nikonrumors.com/2011/09/22/p...o-buy-the-new-nikon-1-mirrorless-camera.aspx/

77% vote no on this new camera. Ouch.

The people that go and read that website, *are not* the target market of Nikon's camera. As such it's a meaningless poll. Reminds me of the many 43rd rumors polls where they ask a question:

"So what you think? That lens from Pentax/Canon/Nikon/Sony will make the X system competitor to micro four thirds owners attractive? Would you sell your micro four thirds equipment to go for that other one now?"

And 95% vote "no". Well, surprise! It's a bit like asking in a church how many that are in the church believe in God. ;-)

- Raist

 

[Lars]

Check out these test images. To my untrained eye, it looks like the 5n is superior by at least a couple of stops....

That link didnt work for me, but I did manage to extract this translated link instead:
http://www.microsofttranslator.com/...2/compact-nikon-v1-bruit-electronique-12.html

Interesting to note is that the article in the link claims that the V1 sensor is designed but not manufactured by Nikon. Whether that statement is correct can of course be discussed.

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

Finally we agree.

It is my understanding, that for dealers, the margins on Sony's are better than the margins for Nikon's. If that is true, which camera(s) do you think brick and mortar dealers are going to push?

I know several camera shops in this country who threw out Sony when they realised that Sony sometimes sold cameras in their own shops at prices close to wholesale.

 

[jonoslack]

Interesting remarks from Thom. As Terry says - there are probably a lot of things which you can do with this setup that people haven't yet thought about.

As for the target audience, I'm sorry but I can see soccer Mom's going for it big time.

Personally I'm not interested, as I really do want more than 10mp - I don't often want to print 24" prints, but I do sometimes, and I can never tell which shot it's going to be.

 

[Tanegashima]

^^ That's not what I'm saying. The # of shots in all these compacts is about the same. But there is a difference in trying to power a secondary AF adapter for f-mount vs using MF legacy glass. MF using no secondary power, while AF uses alot.

You are so dumb you know?

You can just put a lens an turn off AF and VR, voilá, "zero" power.

Or put a MF/screw AF lens on that adapter and take a zillion shots.


If you are worried about the autonomy, either you are a photojournalist using a WRONG camera, or you are just a bad photographer.

You don't need more than 24 photos for a day.

 

[Lonnie Utah]

I want a good method of getting AE and a good AF!

You can just put a lens an turn off AF and VR, voilá, "zero" power.

Ok, so which one is it? You say you want good AF, be then you tell us to turn AF off to save power? That seems like circular logic to me.

If you are worried about the autonomy, either you are a photojournalist using a WRONG camera, or you are just a bad photographer.

And your arguments are so weak that you have to stoop to personal insults. It's OK I have thick skin. But this does nothing to advance your line of reasoning.

You don't need more than 24 photos for a day.

That's rich. Would you care to expound on that for us please?


I'll say it again, one of the brilliant things about small bodied large sensor cameras is the ability to adapt almost any type of glass to it, which is simply impractical with this system. With the crop factor (small sensor), low resolution, high price, no real size gain over other offerings, lack of tiltable screen, it's just not a practical solution when you start looking at what else is out there.

I THINK that nikon put this out there with these specs so it would not compete with their DSLR systems (which have been losing market share of the past year or so). That's an OK plan, if you don't have any other competition out there. But you do. You've got m4/3, other mirrorless systems like the NEX, entry level DSLR's, point and shoots and cell phones all trying to get at this mid level market in some way. I'm not sure this camera falls into any niche' right now that allows it to tap into what people want and what they are purchasing.

 

[Lonnie Utah]

Good Interview regarding the 1 series from The Imaging Resource. It answered a lot of questions for me.

http://www.imaging-resource.com/NEW...i, General Manager R&D, Nikon Imaging Company

A couple of things gleaned from the article. It looks like Nikon put a significant amount or R&D into this camera. Some of the processing stuff going on behind the scenes is pretty impressive really (I still don't think it makes up for the "flaws" of the system, but I was impressed nevertheless).

The most telling thing in the interview was this:

Masahiro Suzuki: When we started with this development, it was quite some time ago, it was prior to the Micro Four Thirds launch. So we were actually some steps ahead of those guys, and our aim was to achieve the most for image quality and high performance--especially for speed--responsiveness, compactness, and ease of use. Those factors combined led to this camera. So rather than adopting Micro Four Thirds, we believe this new format is better.

The design of this camera with regards to sensor makes much more sense now. It seems that the design for this camera was basically set 2ish years ago, before the popularity of mounting MF lenses to these cameras really hit. I would speculate, that at this point Nikon had too much invested in this system to change directions to a large sensor camera.


There was also some insight as to the target market.

Masahiro Suzuki: Basically, they’re currently compact-only users, but who are eager to step up, seeking a better quality image; but who feel that a DSLR would be too much, because of the complexity, or the bigger size. So, there's some hesitation for a DSLR.

Dave Etchells: Okay, so it's kind of the traditional customer that the industry is seeing as the compact system camera user; people that are stepping up who don't want the complexity or size of DLSRs.

MS: Mmm, yes.

The question left unanswered by this is all the ones we've already asked here. Will those users pay the prices these cameras are listed at when there are other offerings out there with better specs at the same or lower cost?

So Lars asked several posts back about why I was taking shots at this little camera. Honestly, it's just brand loyalty sparring, nothing more (But it does help educate me as to what's out there and the +/-'s of all sorts of cameras). But on the other hand, I really couldn't make sense of why this camera had the price and specifications listed. I was honestly confused. Kind of like the X100. From a technical point of view (mainly the fixed lens), that one doesn't make sense to me. However, I totally understand it from a aesthetic point of view. Not to the point of forking over $1,200 for one, but I do understand why folks would. But these little cameras, don't even have the X100 cool factor going for them, and I'm not sure why anyone would rationally, and logically decided they needed one....

Oh, and this...

Masahiro Suzuki: We developed it; we engineered and developed this sensor inside Nikon. But for the production side, that is done by our partner.

 

[ptomsu]

I must say I am really overwhelmed by all this enthusiasm to discuss about the merits and/or flaws of this new 1 Nikon system

For this price, quite honestly if I wanted one, I would just go and buy it and not waste my time arguing if it is a good choice or not.

After being very sceptic in the beginning, I must say that my mind changed to "this is a real cool little camera system" - not sure if I will not just buy one and one or two lenses

 

[Terry]

The bit about speed and throughput coupled with a fast F mount prime with phase detect is a VERY interesting way to get fast capture rates, with focus, with fast glass and this is what Thom Hogan was alluding to yesterday.

Funny they say they were working on this since before m4/3 - Panasonic will say that they were working on this for several years before they launched m4/3.

 

[Lonnie Utah]

Nevermind.

 

[Terry]

At 10fps there is full AF -which includes phase detect. Only at 60fps is it locked. From the press release:

"When the action is happening, users can also shoot at a fast 10 frames per second (fps), with full adaptive AF for frame after frame of images with incredible sharpness and detail. Additionally, the scene can be captured at full resolution up to a staggering 60 fps (AF locked), which is the world's fastest continuous shooting speed."

 

[Lonnie Utah]

^^ Yeah, I mis-remembered and edited my comment (before I saw this post ).

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

Nikon has clearly addressed one of the stumbling stones of electronic photography: Processing power. Few if any digital cameras can measure in responsiveness with even the simplest film SLR, and with an increasing load of processing going on in-camera, as a result of more resolution, electronic viewfinders, optical corrections, "need" for noise free images at astronomical ISO numbers, processing speed has clearly struggled to keep up the pace.

If these new Nikon camera really delivers in this area, Nikon has done an admirable job, and it will be interesting to see how the technology will influence their future DSLRs, both with regards to speed, responsiveness and design.

 

[Tanegashima]

Yes, and it beats all recent M43 cameras, Samsung, and delievers noisier images than the NEX5, but crispier, with better tonal range and more detailed (i.e. less "noise ninja" than Sony).

Here: http://www.digitalcamerainfo.com/content/Nikon-Mirrorless-J1-Digital-Camera-Review/Sample-Photos.htm

Believe if you can.

 

[Lonnie Utah]

I was surprised at how much noise there is in the J1 images even at ISO 200.

Compared to the (now discontinued, NEX-5. In my mind that isn't quite fair. To make it even, they should have used the 5n. Oh, well. It doesn't matter as the NEX-5 appears superior anyway...

These are un-edited crops right from the images posted on digitalcamerainfo.com.

 

[Tanegashima]

It's simple, Sony over-process their images right from base ISO, so you can post un-meaningful crops on internet forums...

 

[Lonnie Utah]

It's simple, Sony over-process their images right from base ISO, so you can post un-meaningful crops on internet forums...

You really think the nikon crop is better than the sony in this one? What I think your trying to illustrate is the nikon has more detail? However, with all the noise in the J1 image, what do you think is going to happen to the so called "detail" when you apply any sort of noise reduction to the file in post. Bye, bye details. At least with the Sony file, working in RAW, you'd have a chance of pulling the details because there isn't the base luminance noise in the file. I don't really care too much about what a camera JPG engine does to a file, I care about what the RAW files look like. If the noise is that bad in the J1 files AFTER running through the in camera jpg engine, I can't imagine how bad they are in RAW with no NR applied...

And I'm also not 100% sure that part of what is going on in that photo is the result of the expand DOF in the J1 due to the small sized sensor. From the photo's I've seen from the 1 series on the web, the is basically no background blur on any image I've seen from these cameras, even wide open. The reason I say this is the bundles of thread on the NEX image appear soft on that image. These stick farther out into space than any other thing in the still life (At f/10 this surprises me a little bit, and I'm not 100% sure it's the right answer.) Yet the text on the grey board behind that is sharp on the NEX image. However, you look at the head of the Rosie the Riveter, it appears sharper on the NEX image.

NEX

J1

Edit: If you look at Amazon's top 100 DSLR's, the NEX-7 (with the kit lens) is the top selling mirrorless right now trending upwards in the mid teens (14 when I posted this). The NEX-7 body only is trending up in the low 20's, two versions of the NEX-5n are in the mid to high 20's. The first 1 series offering is the V1 two lens kit in the mid to high 30's with the 1 lens kit is 1 spot lower. In just 6 short days, the J1 has fallen out of the top 100. There are 9 different NEX offerings in the top 100, compared to 3 Nikon 1 series offerings. It looks like lots of people had waited to see what Nikon had up it's sleeve and have decided to pass in favor of the NEX system. Nikon 1 Series = too little, too late.