And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

[Steen]

nay


Hi Jono, I’m fine thank you and hope the same is the case in your camp

I do hope that you are right and I am wrong, but the the pixel peeper and nay sayer part of me is not too optimistic so far.

I guess I’ll just have to wait until I can judge some full resolution samples with my own eyes.

Do you by any chance have some illustrative full size 24 Mp APS-C examples for peepers like me, despite maybe being just born jpeg captures or whatever ?

And maybe even compared to the sweet spot 6 µm pixel pitch A900 which I suspect already takes us to the border of acceptable diffraction limitation.

I can agree that more pixels is better for printing to a certain size provided the pixels are actually used for print i.e. the image is not downsized substantially for print.
Otherwise I think I’m usually not able to see the advantage with my own eyes.

 

[ptomsu]

Physics cannot be fooled.

With sensors using pixel sizes as small as the A77 or Nikon 1 the limits are pretty much reached for the corresponding lenses. Sure one can get still further, but IQ is not necessarily increasing.

I suspect though that a big part in that equation for resulting high ISO is not mentioned yet - AA filters. I am pretty sure if Sony or Nikon would put weaker or NO AA filters in front of these sensors, they still could improve final IQ, micro contrast etc. Why these companies still insist on strong AA filters is unclear to me. Leica, Olympus (E5) and MFDB have clearly proved that one can also get stunning results without using AA filters. Actually even much better results compared to AA filters.

But in general I agree that a pixel size of 3um is to be the reasonable limit for APSC sized sensors. And building optics with higher resolution than 80 lpm is possible, but almost unrealistic if it comes to prices.

I was shocked when I first compared the output from E5 (12MP but no AA filter and great pro grade lenses) with A77 (24MP, AA filter and just good enough lenses - even if it was Zeiss labeled). The E5 wins hands down WRT IQ, micro contrast and tonality. It is very obvious that just increasing the number of MP does not necessarily increase final IQ.

And this proves another thing - if you want higher resolution with great IQ, micro contrast and tonality then you have to go for larger sensor size - means either FF SLR or MFDB.

 

[Steen]

an attempt to illustrate the importance of pixel quality


f/8 was as far as I could go here, already at f/11 visible diffraction set in and blurred the image details

camera Nikon D300
sensor width 23.6 mm
max picture dimension 4288 pixels
pixel pitch 5.5 µm
required optical resolution 91 line pairs / mm

I hope that my next camera will have a pixel pitch of at least ~ 6 µm, like e.g. the full frame 24 Mp Sony A900 and Nikon D3X.

click for larger - in some browsers the F11 key maximizes and again minimizes <-> the web browser window


Nikon D300 • Carl Zeiss Makro-Planar 2/100mm ZF • 1/50 sec at f/8 ISO 200 • Capture NX​

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

One shop in Bangkok is advertising the V1 already ($1,100 for the V1 2 zoom set), and I saw it on display at Nikon today. Looks veeeery nice. Almost tempting, I would say

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

Nah... they were just teasing. Delivery late October, they say...

 

[dick]

The Nikon 1 is available in the UK now from Jacobs, if you want to pay the price of a GH2 for something half as good.

 

[Terry]

The Nikon 1 is available in the UK now from Jacobs, if you want to pay the price of a GH2 for something half as good.

depends on what lenses and what system you use. I know from what I've seen usability and controls aren't the strong point of the current cameras but there are people that adding the Nikon makes more sense than adding the GH2 and starting from scratch on lenses.

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

depends on what lenses and what system you use. I know from what I've seen usability and controls aren't the strong point of the current cameras but there are people that adding the Nikon makes more sense than adding the GH2 and starting from scratch on lenses.

Add to that the cost of batteries, particularly for those who want to use the original brand ones. The V1 uses the same battery as the D7000 and probably most other Nikon DSLR cameras. The GH2 uses the same battery as... the GH2, and in this country, they cost nearly $100 a piece, if you can find them.

As a Panasonic and Nikon user, these are real concerns. I still get good results from "old" cameras like D80, D300 and GH1, and in many aspects, the V1 is equal to or better than all of those. Build quality also seems to be better than the Panasonics. So it's a realistic alternative. I doubt that I'll leave Panasonic completely anytime soon, since the GH bodies are very suitable for some of my work, but for travel and casual photography, there will be competition from the small Nikon. I can also see myself carrying a Nikon FX camera plus a V1 body in the future, instead of an FX and a DX, to save weight/space and to have access to two cameras with totally different capabilities.

 

[ptomsu]

Add to that the cost of batteries, particularly for those who want to use the original brand ones. The V1 uses the same battery as the D7000 and probably most other Nikon DSLR cameras. The GH2 uses the same battery as... the GH2, and in this country, they cost nearly $100 a piece, if you can find them.

As a Panasonic and Nikon user, these are real concerns. I still get good results from "old" cameras like D80, D300 and GH1, and in many aspects, the V1 is equal to or better than all of those. Build quality also seems to be better than the Panasonics. So it's a realistic alternative. I doubt that I'll leave Panasonic completely anytime soon, since the GH bodies are very suitable for some of my work, but for travel and casual photography, there will be competition from the small Nikon. I can also see myself carrying a Nikon FX camera plus a V1 body in the future, instead of an FX and a DX, to save weight/space and to have access to two cameras with totally different capabilities.

Good to hear you have found your solution

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

Good to hear you have found your solution

Peter,
I don't have one solution, I have many. Cameras are the ultimate food substitutes

As mentioned above, I'm not likely to leave m4/3 (it's an ideal system for motor sports among other things), and I'm even getting some 4/3 gear for when I need/feel for an optical viewfinder. So far, I have a couple of excellent 4/3 lenses and one body, and another body and a lens more is hopefully very close. Unfortunately, my E-5 fund disappeared into an F6 the other day, but who knows what the future brings...

 

[dick]

The Nikon 1 is available in the UK now from Jacobs, if you want to pay the price of a GH2 for something half as good.

depends on what lenses and what system you use. I know from what I've seen usability and controls aren't the strong point of the current cameras but there are people that adding the Nikon makes more sense than adding the GH2 and starting from scratch on lenses.

When lenses are £3,000 each or £20k for a set, the cost of lenses is a significant factor, but not for the GH2.

I can use my old film Nikon mount lenses on the GH2, and my newest Nikon body is the FM...

¿do Nikon have anything in the same league as the 20mm f1.7?

¿have you seen the Nikon 1 sample video on the Jacobs web site?

 

[ptomsu]

Peter,
I don't have one solution, I have many. Cameras are the ultimate food substitutes

As mentioned above, I'm not likely to leave m4/3 (it's an ideal system for motor sports among other things), and I'm even getting some 4/3 gear for when I need/feel for an optical viewfinder. So far, I have a couple of excellent 4/3 lenses and one body, and another body and a lens more is hopefully very close. Unfortunately, my E-5 fund disappeared into an F6 the other day, but who knows what the future brings...

Well,

I am pretty close to sell my E5 with SHG glass, so that seems to be the future for me.

Too much disappointment Olympus to let the E system die and on the other side not even follow up appropriately with the m43 system, Panasonic currently already light years ahead.

Seems for me that I have had enough of Olympus marketing

 

[Terry]

When lenses are £3,000 each or £20k for a set, the cost of lenses is a significant factor, but not for the GH2.

I can use my old film Nikon mount lenses on the GH2, and my newest Nikon body is the FM...

¿do Nikon have anything in the same league as the 20mm f1.7?

¿have you seen the Nikon 1 sample video on the Jacobs web site?

Nobody is right or wrong here. For instance, I could care less if any of these camera even had a video function. So, to me comparing the video features is meaningless.

That just leads me back to the point I made before. Technically, you could say the GH2 is a more complete camera but that doesn't mean it is the right solution for everyone.

 

[ptomsu]

Nobody is right or wrong here. For instance, I could care less if any of these camera even had a video function. So, to me comparing the video features is meaningless.

That just leads me back to the point I made before. Technically, you could say the GH2 is a more complete camera but that doesn't mean it is the right solution for everyone.

+1

Peter