Site Sponsors
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 50 of 154

Thread: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    392
    Post Thanks / Like

    And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    http://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/acil/index.htm


    From dpreview: Nikon has announced the J1 and V1 small sensor mirrorless camera. Built around what the company is calling the 'CX' format (2.7 FX) 10MP CMOS sensors , the cameras represent an entirely new line. Thet are able to shoot 1080p video and combines both phase detection and contrast detection autofocus.

    I am sure, Canon will be next...

  2. #2
    Senior Member bradhusick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Seattle, WA USA
    Posts
    2,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    53

    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    2.7X and slow lenses to boot.

    I am sticking with my Sony NEX-7 pre-order and also waiting to hear from Leica.
    Brad Husick

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    las vegas
    Posts
    419
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    i don't think it'll be the disaster a lot of people seem to think...but it's also not gonna find its way into my bag for >$1000 to get the prime. though, it wouldn't find its way there for half that either, so price is a moot point. lol

    i'd love the NEX7 + Zeiss 24...but the price is way out of my budget for a 3rd camera.

    the samples don't look half bad. which is encouraging, since official samples are usually pretty dreadful.

    http://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/acil.../j1/sample.htm
    http://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/acil.../v1/sample.htm
    --David

  4. #4
    Member Roel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    134
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Maybe someone in the nikon world will buy it, but I won't. Sticking with my NX11, APS-C sensor and my small, fast lenses.

  5. #5
    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Pratamnak
    Posts
    9,336
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2157

    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    I think this looks cool. It would have been even nicer if there was at least one f/1.4 lens available from the start though. If the images are good up to ISO 800, I think they have a winner.

  6. #6
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    3,623
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Sensor smaller than m4/3? no fast lenses, Even less room for shallow DOF, IMO I dont see any advantage over a Nex7 or m4/3.

  7. #7
    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Pratamnak
    Posts
    9,336
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2157

    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    If the hybrid AF system means that AF-S lenses can AF with the mount adapter, it's a very interesting concept. Then, the V1 can actually work as a supplement to and backup for a DSLR. Also, there are already good macro and portrait lenses available. Do I need yet another system with yet another lens mount? Yeah, sure

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    347
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    The two cameras have an odd set of specs. The J1 has no provision for an external flash so that one is obviously for the low end of the consumer market and the V1 with its alloy body and built in EVF has no built in flash but relies on a very low powered external flash with a custom connection - there are no other options.

    The lenses scream mass market but are generally well priced and the overall price of the cameras is well below many initial rumours.

    No fast glass.

  9. #9
    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Pratamnak
    Posts
    9,336
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2157

    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Oh, and Nikon; it will meter with AIS and other old lenses, right? Nikon, can you hear me? You didn't cripple the metering on this one too, did you?

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Tokyo, Japan
    Posts
    280
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    34

    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    With a 2.7x crop I can't really see it acting as a backup to a DLSR. You'd need a whole other set of lenses pretty much no matter what range you were shooting.

    I think it's an intriguing camera. The focus system seems like the big differentiator from m4/3s. It's hard to tell from the photos, but the biggest disappoint I have so far is that the lenses seem no smaller than m4/3s and maybe even larger and heavier.

    It's too early to call anyone a winner or loser. It looks like a reasonable system, just three years behind at this point. Hopefully it will see a lot of updates in the next two years.
    Charles - flickr

  11. #11
    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Pratamnak
    Posts
    9,336
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2157

    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by cjlacz View Post
    With a 2.7x crop I can't really see it acting as a backup to a DLSR. You'd need a whole other set of lenses pretty much no matter what range you were shooting.
    Nope, only a WA zoom is needed. Already a 17-50, standard zoom for DX, would be a 46-135mm (35mm eqv.). It wouldn't be the same of course, but in situations that aren't too demanding but still important to get the shot, it could work fine, and it takes up considerably less space than an extra DSLR body that most likely won't be used.

    Edit: The V1 uses the same battery as the D7000, unlike Panasonic who launches a new battery for almost every single camera. This also means that battery live will probably be very decent. I like this more and more

    EDit 2, about the mount adapter:
    "Autofocus may not perform as expected in some situations or with some lenses. Restrictions apply to mounting and functionality with some lenses." That means it will AF with at least some lenses, right? I wonder if my, ummm... 216-540mm AF-S will
    Last edited by Jorgen Udvang; 21st September 2011 at 02:11.

  12. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    2,115
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    I am fine with the sensor. But if Nikon didn't make sure they do smaller lenses as a result then their unique potential selling proposition on that end fails.

    The rest I can understand, except I think the price is a bit high.

    - Raist

  13. #13
    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Austria, close to Vienna
    Posts
    3,866
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    After reading through the specs for a while I must say I am not a fan of this concept. Similar to the Pentax Q concept. There will sure be enough to who this concept appeals, for my needs I would rather buy a serious compact like the XZ1 instead of such a system.

    I would have better liked a sensor at least the size of 43 or even better APSC.

    Obviously all the vendors need to be in the mirroeless system camp today. But the issue is that they also seem to listen too much to marketing and not to the needs of serious photographers.

    Maybe Leica will bring the perfect mirrorless system?

  14. #14
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Terry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    6,955
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1145

    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    The crop factor doesn't bother me that much. They kept the pixel count at 10mp so I would have expected on a sensor that is 4x larger than an LX5/XZ-1 that they would be able to get really good high ISO results. The camera only goes to 3200 with 6400 as Hi extended ISO.

    So, the limited pixel count/ISO is the surprise for me.

    On the upside the lower pixel count does allow for fast processing and the feature set seems to indicate that with a number of different high speed options in movies and stills. The lower end model only has an electronic shutter and the higher end has both electronic and mechanical (allowing for fast shutter speeds or different flash synch speeds).

    I'm surprised that they didn't get a fast portrait prime out there right away to make a mark on the more advanced users.....or at least a lens that would be really enticing.

    Buffer depth is impressive and something I do hit up against in m4/3:
    At maximum resolution, buffer depth with a mechanical shutter is rated at 42 frames in raw+JPEG Fine mode, 44 frames in raw mode, and 58 frames in JPEG mode. Buffer depths using the electronic shutter aren't yet available.

    Anyone notice from the pictures how square the LCD looks on the back....the camera is a 3:2 aspect ratio so I wonder how much screen real estate is compromised....aslo the LCD has a lot lower resolution than the EVF and seems a little lackluster given todays newest screens. Edit - whoops that LCD spec is for the lower end model not the high end model which is 921K and makes a lot more sense.

    Edit- I just tried to watch the "motion" samples. Not quite sure I know how it works or how manipulated the samples are. For instance there is a woman kicking a soccer ball. You see the kick and then there is a still. The still isn't really from the sequence but don't know what sort of post processing was done to get the music and still portion. Samples are here:

    http://www.imaging-resource.com/NEWS/1316578774.html
    Last edited by Terry; 21st September 2011 at 03:52.

  15. #15
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    jonoslack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    East Anglia & Cornwall (UK)
    Posts
    11,778
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    After reading through the specs for a while I must say I am not a fan of this concept. Similar to the Pentax Q concept. There will sure be enough to who this concept appeals, for my needs I would rather buy a serious compact like the XZ1 instead of such a system.
    Well, the sensor is 4 times as big as that on the Pentax Q, and 2.5 times as big as the XZ1 sensor.

    The advantage of course is that the lenses are going to be much smaller than m4/3 or NEX or Samsung, but the image quality will be much better than Pentax Q.

    Personally I'd also rather have an XZ1 as a 'pocket' camera, but I can see this system doing REALLY well as an only system for a lot of people, small, sexy (well, almost), should have pretty good image quality and decent low light capabilities. Excellent.

    But I'm sticking to my NEX7 order thank you very much!

    all the best

    Just this guy you know

  16. #16
    Senior Member peterb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Tysons Corner, Virginia
    Posts
    490
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    18

    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Just what the world needs...yet another format and lenses. I'm sure there are people who'll buy it simply because it's a Nikon.
    Last edited by peterb; 30th October 2012 at 16:17.
    Life is an infinite series of moments called..."now".
    My job is to capture them.

  17. #17
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Godfrey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Near San Jose, California
    Posts
    7,927
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by bradhusick View Post
    2.7X and slow lenses to boot.

    I am sticking with my Sony NEX-7 pre-order and also waiting to hear from Leica.
    Another format, another new system ... the main consideration for me is M-bayonet, manual focus lens compatibility. This new format, like the Pentax Q, is less useful for that.

    I'm quite pleased with the Ricoh GXR and the A12 Camera Mount. I'll wait to hear from Leica next too.

  18. #18
    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Austria, close to Vienna
    Posts
    3,866
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Well, the sensor is 4 times as big as that on the Pentax Q, and 2.5 times as big as the XZ1 sensor.

    The advantage of course is that the lenses are going to be much smaller than m4/3 or NEX or Samsung, but the image quality will be much better than Pentax Q.

    Personally I'd also rather have an XZ1 as a 'pocket' camera, but I can see this system doing REALLY well as an only system for a lot of people, small, sexy (well, almost), should have pretty good image quality and decent low light capabilities. Excellent.

    But I'm sticking to my NEX7 order thank you very much!

    all the best
    I agree that the Nikon concept will be appealing to lot of people. Albeit not to me. Then I stay rather with my M43 gear.

    NEX7 looks pretty nice, not sure if I should get on order as well.

    Cheers

    Peter

  19. #19
    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Pratamnak
    Posts
    9,336
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2157

    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    This is not about making the best camera, it's about branding. For most potential buyers, f/1.4 and f/3.5 are just numbers. Most DSLRs sell with kit lenses that start at f/3.5 and higher anyway. Microsoft didn't succeed because it was the best OS, but because IBM decided to use it. For cameras, there are no stronger brand names than Nikon and Canon. The 1 cameras seem to produce excellent results at least up to ISO 800, and the system seems to be as well integrated with existing Nikon DSLR technology as practically possible. A couple of thousand enthusiasts who frequent this and other online photography forums will keep on arguing about lack of fast lenses and noise at ISO 6400, but Johnny Normal doesn't see those problems. And if I'm being completely honest with myself, and when I look at the practicality built into the system, there's hardly any EVIL cameras and lenses that would integrate better with my existing Nikon lenses and bodies should I choose to continue using the camera industry's equivalent of Volvo.

    I think Nikon has done an excellent job here, and the very businesslike, almost utilitarian design of most components, will make the 1 system a serious contender to NEX, m4/3 and whatever the Samsung is called. People who already use Nikon and haven't invested in EVIL yet, will most certainly buy into the system. To top it off, there's even a pink model with lenses to match for the gf, bf or whoever else in the family who doesn't know that real cameras are black

  20. #20
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    271
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    http://arcrental.wordpress.com/2011/...the-j1-and-v1/

    It’s hard to discern the target demographic for the 1 cameras. At these prices and with this spec sheet, they are not competitive in the high-end mirrorless interchangeable lens market: pros and enthusiasts looking for a second “carry everywhere” camera when they are not on a shoot with their bulky full-frame or medium format camera. Likewise, consumers (the multi-color availability makes it looks like a nod to this demo) looking to “trade up” from compacts will balk at these prices, considering the entry-level models of the established mirrorless players, like the E-PM1 from Olympus, the Panasonic GF3 and Sony’s NEX-3C are cheaper and better spec’d. It’s unclear that the consumer market really cares about interchangeable lenses, but the promise of baked-in DSLR image quality, or something approaching it, is more compelling, and that’s something the 1 system is in the least advantageous position to offer.
    SONY A900
    Always outnumbered, never outgunned.
    My Site|Facebook Fanpage|

  21. #21
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    etrigan63's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Earth, Sol System (near Miami, FL)
    Posts
    2,501
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    21

    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    I'm with Brad on this one: Glad I pre-ordered the NEX-7.
    Carlos Echenique | Carlos Echenique Photography |Olympus OM-D E-M1 MK II | Olympus Pen-F - M.Zuiko 17mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 25mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 45mm f/1.8, Rokinon 12mm f/2 NCS, M.Zuiko 75mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 12-40mm f/2.8 PRO, M.Zuiko 40-150mm f/2.8 PRO

  22. #22
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    jonoslack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    East Anglia & Cornwall (UK)
    Posts
    11,778
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by etrigan63 View Post
    I'm with Brad on this one: Glad I pre-ordered the NEX-7.
    Hi Carlos
    So am I - (with Brad on this one). But I still think that this is a good move from Nikon with a sensible camera which will produce fine images without conflicting with their dSLR business. It certainly won't compete with NEX or m4/3 from an image point of view, but it'll be close, and it should knock the higher spec compacts into a cocked hat.

    I'd say it's what the Pentax Q system should have been

    Just this guy you know

  23. #23
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Tokyo, Japan
    Posts
    280
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    34

    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Nope, only a WA zoom is needed. Already a 17-50, standard zoom for DX, would be a 46-135mm (35mm eqv.). It wouldn't be the same of course, but in situations that aren't too demanding but still important to get the shot, it could work fine, and it takes up considerably less space than an extra DSLR body that most likely won't be used.

    Edit: The V1 uses the same battery as the D7000, unlike Panasonic who launches a new battery for almost every single camera. This also means that battery live will probably be very decent. I like this more and more :
    Ok, good point. The range on the 17-50 isn't unreasonable at all. Using the same battery is good. I just went out and bought a couple more batteries for my GF1 for my long hike. Didn't really want to, but it was cheaper than buying and Olympus camera and more batteries.
    Charles - flickr

  24. #24
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Los Angeles CA
    Posts
    262
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2

    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    I do not think that the market for these new Nikon cameras are people who participate on this forum. I think their market is P&S users that want better IQ. With Nikon's name on the cameras, I believe these camera will be a marketing success.

  25. #25
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    las vegas
    Posts
    419
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    i think the disappointment isn't with the product itself...but that it isn't for the people who participate on this forum (and its ilk).

    i would've loved a nikon nex7.
    --David

  26. #26
    Senior Member Lars's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Sunnyvale, California
    Posts
    1,811
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    19

    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    As a system, the main issue I see is sensor size, for the reason of shallow DOF. All other spec issues are fixable in future products.

    An m43 sensor wouldn't have made body or lenses much bigger, so that decision is a bit of a mystery to me. Clearly the marketing campaign focuses on the size of the camera body, perhaps the smallest replaceable-lens body on the market was a design criteria, which is fine, just not one I would have chosen if I had to compromise on sensor size.

    A V1 certainly won't fill my need for an SLR system. Would it replace my compact - currently a G11? Nope, too costly, and not pocketable with the normal zoom.

    Looking forward to seeing the next iteration. Until then, I am clearly outside the target demographic.

    My wishlist: Make a similar camera with a DX-size sensor, its own mount (keeping sensor to bayonet distance small) and an optional F adapter. (Yes I know, that sounds like a NEX-7.)
    Monochrome: http://mochro.com

  27. #27
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    271
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Lars Vinberg View Post
    As a system, the main issue I see is sensor size.....so that decision is a bit of a mystery to me.
    Not to me. The Nikon execs stated in the release press conference that the sensor was a 100% Nikon product and not a Sony offering. The sensor size is directly related to Nikons (in)ability to produce large high quality sensors. They just don't have that capability right now. So this is what you get, a camera that is "crippled" (in terms of crop factor and DOF) by a sensor that is "too small".

    Edit: Have you guys seen the v1 vs NEX-5N comparision at Pocket-Lint? It brings the
    SONY A900
    Always outnumbered, never outgunned.
    My Site|Facebook Fanpage|

  28. #28
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Terry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    6,955
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1145

    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnie Utah View Post
    The sensor size is directly related to Nikons (in)ability to produce large high quality sensors. They just don't have that capability right now.
    Any evidence to back this up? Pretty bold statement.

    I certainly don't get the sense that this choice of size was "dictated"

  29. #29
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    271
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    Any evidence to back this up? Pretty bold statement.
    Just look at history. Nikon has been using Sony sensors in all of their DSLR's for quite some time now. This is due to Nikon's inability to produce these large sensors themselves (If they could they would, right?) I always hear from Nikon shooters. "Sony needs nikon to make it's sensors profitable." I think that used to be true, when Sony was just getting in the game. However Sony's market share has been increasing every year, and thanks to the NEX line, last year Sony sold more cameras than anyone except Cannon. That's a lot more APS-C sensors being sold and put into Sony cameras....

    To me it's very savvy for Sony to supply Nikon with sensors for their DSLR's. Because if you wanted to cripple a business competitor, what better way to do it than to make them "dependent" on a critically important part you supply them, and the sever the business connection. My guess is that Sony will continue to sell Nikon chips until the time where Sony can make a set profit level on their sensors, without having to supply Nikon. At that point they'll quit selling to Nikon. Thanks to the success of the NEX line, this time seems to be closer than ever before. Since Nikon has no or limited ability to manufacture their own chips (or at least large sensors), they'd better hope and pray that the folks in Tokyo don't ever decide to do this. (I also theorize that this might be one reason for the delay in the D700 and the D3 replacement cameras, that the business relationship is already starting to crack, and Nikon can't get sensors for these cameras from Sony....)

    This new ICL camera and it's small sensor are the perfect indication Nikon's weakness in the market (to compete with m4/3 and the NEX). Nikon has seen the profitability of this segment of the market (small mirrorless cameras with big sensors) and were "forced" to introduce something or be left behind (Pana, Oly and Sony already have at least a two year head start). Yet since they have no ability to manufacture large sensors that the buyers in this market are after, they are stuck with this offering. I have no doubt that given their druthers, Nikon would have loved for this camera to have a m4/3 or larger sensor. But Sony's new cash cow in the camera market is the NEX line and they aren't going to shoot themselves in the foot by giving away that competitive advantage. Why would they sell sensors to a rival camera company for a product that would end up competing head to head with the NEX line?

    I've said for a long time that if Nikon doesn't make some investment in sensor manufacturing, that one day they will be a lens maker and not a camera maker.
    SONY A900
    Always outnumbered, never outgunned.
    My Site|Facebook Fanpage|

  30. #30
    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Pratamnak
    Posts
    9,336
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2157

    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    A paradox within all this is that integration between DSLRs and EVILs may be the turning point for some. Both Nikon and Sony are clearly addressing this, while Olympus and Panasonic are almost entirely abandoning the classic DSLR, except for the superb E-5. With Nikon, a combination of the V1, the D7000, whatever comes after the D700 and an F6, I will have four different media/formats that can mostly share lenses as well as batteries and chargers. I assume that the D700 replacement will also take SD cards, which adds another shared element (except the F6, which for some reason only accepts some ancient, canister based storage medium). I may not be a typical user, but as a "constant traveller", system integration has enormous value. The less I have to worry about bringing the correct accessories for the cameras I'm going to use, the more I can concentrate on what really matters; taking photos. The crop factor of the "1" system might not be ideal for shallow DOF, but it will turn any large aperture 35 or 50mm lens into a rather decent portrait tool. I can't really see what's not to like here.

  31. #31
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Terry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    6,955
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1145

    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    OK Lonnie, so just an opinion.

  32. #32
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Terry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    6,955
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1145

    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    A paradox within all this is that integration between DSLRs and EVILs may be the turning point for some. Both Nikon and Sony are clearly addressing this, while Olympus and Panasonic are almost entirely abandoning the classic DSLR, except for the superb E-5. With Nikon, a combination of the V1, the D7000, whatever comes after the D700 and an F6, I will have four different media/formats that can mostly share lenses as well as batteries and chargers. I assume that the D700 replacement will also take SD cards, which adds another shared element (except the F6, which for some reason only accepts some ancient, canister based storage medium). I may not be a typical user, but as a "constant traveller", system integration has enormous value. The less I have to worry about bringing the correct accessories for the cameras I'm going to use, the more I can concentrate on what really matters; taking photos. The crop factor of the "1" system might not be ideal for shallow DOF, but it will turn any large aperture 35 or 50mm lens into a rather decent portrait tool. I can't really see what's not to like here.
    This reminds me in a different way to a good post (completely unrelated) I read a short time ago.

    http://daringfireball.net/2011/09/new_apple_advantage

  33. #33
    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Pratamnak
    Posts
    9,336
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2157

    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Lonnie,
    As far as I know, even Canon, among many others, uses Sony sensors for their p&s cameras, and Pentax uses a Sony sensor in the K-5. Sensor manufacturing is big business for Sony, and I would be surprised if they locked themselves out of that market. It has never been revealed who makes the sensor for the D3s and D700, but it has been clearly stated that they are designed by Nikon, and although Nikon doesn't have manufacturing facilities themselves, there are others who do, also within Japan.

  34. #34
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    271
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    OK Lonnie, so just an opinion.
    No Terry, not an opinion, a fact. LMGTFY Show me one example of a Nikon DSLR sensor, designed and manufactured totally by Nikon in the past 3 years. Nikon simply hasn't had the ability to produce sensors larger than 1/1.7" until this camera.
    SONY A900
    Always outnumbered, never outgunned.
    My Site|Facebook Fanpage|

  35. #35
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Terry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    6,955
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1145

    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnie Utah View Post
    No Terry, not an opinion, a fact. LMGTFY Show me one example of a Nikon DSLR sensor, designed and manufactured totally by Nikon in the past 3 years. Nikon simply hasn't had the ability to produce sensors larger than 1/1.7" until this camera.
    Yes Lonnie,
    Follow your own, very condescending, link and click on the third Link about the D3 and other full frame sensors.

  36. #36
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    271
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Lonnie,
    As far as I know, even Canon, among many others, uses Sony sensors for their p&s cameras, and Pentax uses a Sony sensor in the K-5. Sensor manufacturing is big business for Sony, and I would be surprised if they locked themselves out of that market.
    Thank you for helping me make my point. Why do you think the Pentax Q doesn't have a full sized (m4/3 or larger) sensor? It's the same reason. Sony wants to dominate the Mirrorless ICL camera business and they aren't giving away that advantage by selling sensors to a competitor.
    SONY A900
    Always outnumbered, never outgunned.
    My Site|Facebook Fanpage|

  37. #37
    Tanegashima
    Guest

    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnie Utah View Post
    Just look at history. Nikon has been using Sony sensors in all of their DSLR's for quite some time now. This is due to Nikon's inability to produce these large sensors themselves (If they could they would, right?) I always hear from Nikon shooters. "Sony needs nikon to make it's sensors profitable." I think that used to be true, when Sony was just getting in the game. However Sony's market share has been increasing every year, and thanks to the NEX line, last year Sony sold more cameras than anyone except Cannon. That's a lot more APS-C sensors being sold and put into Sony cameras....

    To me it's very savvy for Sony to supply Nikon with sensors for their DSLR's. Because if you wanted to cripple a business competitor, what better way to do it than to make them "dependent" on a critically important part you supply them, and the sever the business connection. My guess is that Sony will continue to sell Nikon chips until the time where Sony can make a set profit level on their sensors, without having to supply Nikon. At that point they'll quit selling to Nikon. Thanks to the success of the NEX line, this time seems to be closer than ever before. Since Nikon has no or limited ability to manufacture their own chips (or at least large sensors), they'd better hope and pray that the folks in Tokyo don't ever decide to do this. (I also theorize that this might be one reason for the delay in the D700 and the D3 replacement cameras, that the business relationship is already starting to crack, and Nikon can't get sensors for these cameras from Sony....)

    This new ICL camera and it's small sensor are the perfect indication Nikon's weakness in the market (to compete with m4/3 and the NEX). Nikon has seen the profitability of this segment of the market (small mirrorless cameras with big sensors) and were "forced" to introduce something or be left behind (Pana, Oly and Sony already have at least a two year head start). Yet since they have no ability to manufacture large sensors that the buyers in this market are after, they are stuck with this offering. I have no doubt that given their druthers, Nikon would have loved for this camera to have a m4/3 or larger sensor. But Sony's new cash cow in the camera market is the NEX line and they aren't going to shoot themselves in the foot by giving away that competitive advantage. Why would they sell sensors to a rival camera company for a product that would end up competing head to head with the NEX line?

    I've said for a long time that if Nikon doesn't make some investment in sensor manufacturing, that one day they will be a lens maker and not a camera maker.
    Sorry.

    1. Nikon (Nippon Kogaku) always was about lenses. They started manuf. lenses before cameras, the Nikkor brand is older than the Nikon brand, and the first camera that came with Nikkor lenses was a Canon.

    2. Nikon, like Canon CAN make sensors, you don't know but Nikon makes IC steppers, the equipment used to make integrated circuits and other nanotechnology products like CPU's, RAM, CMOS sensors, etc. Sony can't. That's why Nikon and Canon have "toys" like Nano-Crystal coating (now Canon has it's own knock-off they call sub-wavelenght coating or whatever). In fact, Nikon was awarded by Intel, Intel is world leading manufacturer of highest complexity and most advanced IC's available in the world!

    3. Sensors like the D3 series and D700 are Nikon's.

  38. #38
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    271
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    Yes Lonnie,
    Follow your own, very condescending, link and click on the third Link about the D3 and other full frame sensors.
    The one from nikonRUMORS? Didn't I say designed AND manufactured 100% by Nikon? Well, it's well understood fact that nikon may have "designed" the sensor (many speculate that Nikon simply gave sony the specifications they wanted), but it was manufactured in a Sony production facility. It's a well know fact that Nikon has no silicone wafer production ability of their own (Jorgen's post backs me up on this), so no matter how hard you try, you can't win this argument.

    Edit: From that same article...

    “Nikon have announced that they designed the sensor. Nikon has no wafer fabrication capability so they outsource the sensor production, but they are keeping the foundry close to their chests, so close that we must speculate to identify the source. The obvious choice would be Sony, who build the sensor used in the Nikon D2X, however there are no Sony markings on the device, and the device structure is markedly different from the other Sony CIS we have analyzed. We considered Matsushita/Panasonic the device structure has similarities to the Panasonic CIS we have seen, but it is sufficiently different that we have doubts that it is theirs. Thus we are speculating who else could be the manufacturing source. I believe Nikon would stick with a Japanese foundry. An interesting possibility is Renesas, they have close ties with Nikon, supplying several imager processor chipsets, they have a patent portfolio in image sensors indicating they have active r+d in this field, and they have the fab capabilities.”
    http://www.chipworks.com/en/technica...sor-economics/
    SONY A900
    Always outnumbered, never outgunned.
    My Site|Facebook Fanpage|

  39. #39
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Terry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    6,955
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1145

    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Lonnie.
    That is where you are 100% wrong. I'm not trying to win anything and that attitutde is not within the spirit of this forum.

  40. #40
    Tanegashima
    Guest

    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnie Utah View Post
    The one from nikonRUMORS? Didn't I say designed AND manufactured 100% by Nikon? Well, it's well understood fact that nikon may have "designed" the sensor (many speculate that Nikon simply gave sony the specifications they wanted), but it was manufactured in a Sony production facility. It's a well know fact that Nikon has no silicone wafer production ability of their own (Jorgen's post backs me up on this), so no matter how hard you try, you can't win this argument.
    LOL!

    So what?

    Sony can't make lenses, Tamron does make them for Sony.

    Sony can't make IC steppers, Nikon, Canon, etc. make them for Sony.

    And when you put Nikon's "owner", Mitsubishi group, it's even more interesting.

    Mitsubishi has:

    Cars, Trucks, Planes, and Oil to run them, and makes and sells electricty too, as well as equip. to make the the plants to make electricity, and has houses (real estate), a bank too, so you can pay them, and, of course, to use the paper and plastic. And not forget Mitsubishi pencil, so you can write on their paper. And so many other things.

    Sony may be big, but Mitsubishi is HUGE!

  41. #41
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    271
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanegashima View Post
    So what?
    So this means nikon ends up putting out a nonsensical mirrorless because they can't make their own large chips. Sony knows the future of the camera market is Mirrorless ICL (and cell phone CCD sensor based cameras). They already have early establishment with the NEX line. In short, they learned their lesson with the betamax.

    You stated that the Nikkor brand is older than the Nikon brand and they were lens makers first. I predict a return to their glorious past...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanegashima View Post
    Sony can't make lenses, Tamron does make them for Sony.
    And that would be Carl Zeiss, thank you.

    And with a little digging, it's not hard to discern that you have a direct affiliation with Nikon/Mitsubishi...
    SONY A900
    Always outnumbered, never outgunned.
    My Site|Facebook Fanpage|

  42. #42
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Terry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    6,955
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1145

    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnie Utah View Post


    And that would be Carl Zeiss, thank you.
    Zeiss doesn't manufacture the Zeiss branded Sony lenses. Shall I Google that for you?

  43. #43
    Tanegashima
    Guest

    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnie Utah View Post
    So this means nikon ends up putting out a nonsensical mirrorless because they can't make their own large chips. Sony knows the future of the camera market is Mirrorless ICL (and cell phone CCD sensor based cameras). They already have early establishment with the NEX line. In short, they learned their lesson with the betamax.

    You stated that the Nikkor brand is older than the Nikon brand and they were lens makers first. I predict a return to their glorious past...



    And that would be Carl Zeiss, thank you.

    And with a little digging, it's not hard to discern that you have a direct affiliation with Nikon/Mitsubishi...

    1. NEX cameras are so ridiculous, they look like a credit card with a lens attached. They aren't as compact as a p&s, neither universal as a bridge, not a good working tool as a DSLR, and not even "cute" as a M43 camera.

    2. Carl Zeiss doesn't even make Carl Zeiss photographic lens, do you think they make lens for Sony?

    3. So what if I had?

  44. #44
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Terry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    6,955
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1145

    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    By the way Lonnie,
    In my opinion - this post undermines your entire argument as to why they chose a 2.7x crop. If Nikon has the ability to design sensors, and access to a manufacturer with a fab to manufacture their designs, there doesn't seem to be a reason why they would be boxed in to "accepting" a sensor size that is not of their choosing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnie Utah View Post
    The one from nikonRUMORS? Didn't I say designed AND manufactured 100% by Nikon? Well, it's well understood fact that nikon may have "designed" the sensor (many speculate that Nikon simply gave sony the specifications they wanted), but it was manufactured in a Sony production facility. It's a well know fact that Nikon has no silicone wafer production ability of their own (Jorgen's post backs me up on this), so no matter how hard you try, you can't win this argument.

    Edit: From that same article...




    http://www.chipworks.com/en/technica...sor-economics/

  45. #45
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    271
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    They don't manufacture the Zeiss branded Sony lenses.
    True, but the CZ lenses were originally developed and designed by Zeiss, and Zeiss oversees the production in Japan, and they QA/QC the lenses to make sure they are up to their specs. It's also true that Ziess isn't in competition with Sony making camera bodies either, so you're analogy, while not without truth, is a little skewed. (To me the original issue is having a critical part for your cameras being made by your direct competitor).

    To me lenses are a bit different than bodies as there are multiple manufactures that make lenses for every system, so you have multiple options on what you can buy for your own camera. One can put Nikon/Canon/Sony, Sigma, Tamron, tokina, etc etc lenses on a Nikon/Canon/Sony system. The decision point for most consumers when they buy a new camera is what manufacture to go with. Once you are "locked into" a mount system, weather it be Nikon, Canon, Sony, Pentax, etc, you are pretty much forced to use the camera offerings from that manufacture as they are released. (Of course one always has the option to sell your gear and change systems) This isn't true for lenses for the reasons stated above. The subtle point here, is why would folks want to spend more money for an identical sensor in a Nikon vs Sony offering. (The answer there has always been the native lens lineup for the Nikon system, although, I personally believe that's a false argument. However, I can also see why it wins people over).

    We've drifted a little far afield here, and my original premise/question still stands. Does Nikon still put a small sensor in this camera if they had the ability to produce an APS-C sized sensor? I think the answer is no, for all the obvious reasons everyone around the internetz has already stated.
    SONY A900
    Always outnumbered, never outgunned.
    My Site|Facebook Fanpage|

  46. #46
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    271
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    By the way Lonnie,
    In my opinion - this post undermines your entire argument as to why they chose a 2.7x crop. If Nikon has the ability to design sensors, and access to a manufacturer with a fab to manufacture their designs, there doesn't seem to be a reason why they would be boxed in to "accepting" a sensor size that is not of their choosing.
    Yes, it does, IF their sensor maker is Sony.

    1). Sony already has a strong foothold with the NEX system. The NEX7 is selling like wildfire, and the 5n is doing strong business too. Sony doesn't want to lose this advantage.

    2). Nikon sees the success of the NEX system, the so called writing on the wall, and wants to jump into the mirrorless ICL camera game. They go to their old "partner" Sony and ask about using a Sony APS-C sensor in Nikon's new ICL camera.

    3) Sony does not want to lose it's already established advantage in the ICL camera market. Sony tells nikon to look elsewhere.

    4). Nikon still wants to jump into the ICL camera game. Logically they still want to put the largest sized sensor they can in their ICL camera. But they have no source for an APS-C (or even m4/3) sensor and can't afford to wait until they can make one on their own. They see how large they can scale up the sensors from their coolpix cameras, and this is what we get. A small sensor, 2.7 crop factor, low resolution offering.

    This is a camera that is aimed at the intermediate market, but with a price that is too high for that market ($1149 for the V1 and the 2 lens kit, $649 for the J1 and the 10-30mm zoom). Personally, for $150 less, if one wanting to stay "brand loyal", I'll get the coolpic p7100. Sure the sensor is smaller and it's a lower video resolution, but I get real pocketability, much better controls, a standard flash hotshoe, stereo sound (the 1 is mono :huh and an articulating screen. Did mention it was $150 less?
    SONY A900
    Always outnumbered, never outgunned.
    My Site|Facebook Fanpage|

  47. #47
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Terry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    6,955
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1145

    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Nikon is already buying and using the sensor that is in the NEX cameras. So is Pentax.

  48. #48
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    271
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    Nikon is already buying and using the sensor that is in the NEX cameras. So is Pentax.
    For their DSLR's, not mirrorless. And it's the sensor that's in the 5n, not the NEX-7.

    Sony could simply refuse to sell anymore than what is needed/contracted for the d7K or the K5, forcing Nikon and Pentax to look elsewhere for their mirrorless cameras. Do you really think it's a coincidence that both of these makers, after using Sony sensors in their DSLR's, use their own sensors in mirrorless offerings?
    SONY A900
    Always outnumbered, never outgunned.
    My Site|Facebook Fanpage|

  49. #49
    Tanegashima
    Guest

    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnie Utah View Post
    Yes, it does, IF their sensor maker is Sony.

    1). Sony already has a strong foothold with the NEX system. The NEX7 is selling like wildfire, and the 5n is doing strong business too. Sony doesn't want to lose this advantage.

    2). Nikon sees the success of the NEX system, the so called writing on the wall, and wants to jump into the mirrorless ICL camera game. They go to their old "partner" Sony and ask about using a Sony APS-C sensor in Nikon's new ICL camera.

    3) Sony does not want to lose it's already established advantage in the ICL camera market. Sony tells nikon to look elsewhere.

    4). Nikon still wants to jump into the ICL camera game. Logically they still want to put the largest sized sensor they can in their ICL camera. But they have no source for an APS-C (or even m4/3) sensor and can't afford to wait until they can make one on their own. They see how large they can scale up the sensors from their coolpix cameras, and this is what we get. A small sensor, 2.7 crop factor, low resolution offering.

    This is a camera that is aimed at the intermediate market, but with a price that is too high for that market ( for the V1 and the 2 lens kit, for the J1 and the 10-30mm zoom). Personally, for less, if one wanting to stay "brand loyal", I'll get the coolpic p7100. Sure the sensor is smaller and it's a lower video resolution, but I get real pocketability, much better controls, a standard flash hotshoe, stereo sound (the 1 is mono :huh and an articulating screen. Did mention it was less?
    It's the SAME sensor.

    There isn't yet a camera from Sony with the NEX7/A77 sensor, so what?

    Look, we already know that Sony is taking over the world. You are going to win big. We will all be forced to buy Sony cameras. Our cameras will stop working because Sony makes the sensors for Nikon and puts a little bomb in every one of them.

  50. #50
    Tanegashima
    Guest

    Re: And Nikon launches a Mirrorless....

    Cool story bro. CZ doesn't make lenses, so does Sony.

    Yes, Sony puts a bomb in every sensor they "sell" to Nikon and Pentax, and when they want, our cameras will explode and break our lenses and will kill us all.

    Putting a MF lens in a M43/NEX body is stupid, it's so stupid to use MF this days, even more with and EVF Is like owning a mercedes-benz body with an steam engine.




    And Nikon and Pentax don't need to tag with Sony. Nikon can start 'fab. of sensors anytime they want. And they can tag with Foveon or Fuji for example. Fuji makes already a pretty good APS-C sensor.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •