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Thread: Could there be no D4x due to the D800 ??

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    Could there be no D4x due to the D800 ??

    Hello :

    Just wondering if there would not be a D4x cause Nikon "mostly" has the D800 with 36MP ?

    Will the "x" versions be discontinued ?

    Any thoughts ?


    Jai


    ps : Similar question has been posted on another forum.

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    Senior Subscriber Member Steen's Avatar
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    maybe slightly off topic


    I'd like to start a new rumor that the D3X flagship successor will initiate a new "larger than full frame" series, like another brand once put it

    With a larger sensor, probably 36x48mm or just 30x40mm, and a new mount called NX or maybe MX.

    In a form factor like the D3X (or the Leica S2 for that matter).

    No mirror slap, no mechanical shutter, no mechanical capture shake.

    And a new series of medium format lenses.

    Nikon will not gain a lot of income by introducing this high end product, but the brand will gain prestige.

    And if Nikon doesn't do it, Canon will at some point, or Sony will.

    Don't trust me on this

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    Re: Could there be no D4x due to the D800 ??

    Some photographers don't believe pixel resolution is the end all and be all spec and that pixel pitch is important. Canon believes that and it seems Nikon does as well, which is why the rumored 36MP sensor is not ending up in the "flagship" model.

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    Re: maybe slightly off topic

    Quote Originally Posted by Steen View Post

    With a larger sensor, probably 36x48mm or just 30x40mm, and a new mount called NX or maybe MX.


    What I don't really understand is the current obsession of pretty much all the camera makers with the letter X.

    Is there any significance attached to this wrt to photography?

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    Re: maybe slightly off topic

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    What I don't really understand is the current obsession of pretty much all the camera makers with the letter X.
    Y




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    Re: Could there be no D4x due to the D800 ??

    As much as I wish for Steen's rumor to be true, I think the x line is dead for now. It used to stand for a higher resolution image but Sony showed with the price level of the A900 - and Canon with the 5DII - that pixel count alone doesnt merit a flagship price level. It would seem that an 11 fps 16 Mpx sports shooter is pushing the limits of technology more, especially if you factor in professional demands for processing speed, buffer size, reliability etc, which is what Nikon's F and Dn lines have been all about even from the start. Not saying that D3x is just about pixel count, but as good as the D3x is, it's still a very low volume product.

    As for pixel count, I welcome the step up to 36 Mpx. This will pressure lens designers even more for corner resolution. As much as I love my Sigma 50, I dread the moment when it has to endure the torture of shooting resolution targets wide open.
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    Re: Could there be no D4x due to the D800 ??

    IF the D800 is 36MP then I don't see any reason for an x. What would that be? A D4 yes, especially if it has a choice of producing very clean 16MP files at something like 10 fps. But not a D4x...

    The 24MP from my a850 makes 16x24 prints sing. With a 36MP body this quality would be extended to 20x30. Beyond that, I personally don't really care. Even in 20x30, going from 24 to 36MP is a pretty marginal step up (compared to 12 to 24 - that's FAR more obvious).

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    Re: Could there be no D4x due to the D800 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Jan Brittenson View Post
    IF the D800 is 36MP then I don't see any reason for an x. What would that be? A D4 yes, especially if it has a choice of producing very clean 16MP files at something like 10 fps. But not a D4x...

    The 24MP from my a850 makes 16x24 prints sing. With a 36MP body this quality would be extended to 20x30. Beyond that, I personally don't really care. Even in 20x30, going from 24 to 36MP is a pretty marginal step up (compared to 12 to 24 - that's FAR more obvious).
    They'll probably make some kind of flagship camera, even if 99% of the customers go for the cheaper model. It's a question of showing technological ability and innovation, but also about offering something to those who need or want the ultimate machinery, regardless of weight, size and price. I'm currently buying a D2Xs, which in most ways inferior to my D300, because it offers handling and abilities in some areas that the D300 doesn't.

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    Senior Subscriber Member Steen's Avatar
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    off topic


    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post

    What I don't really understand is the current obsession of pretty much all the camera makers with the letter X.

    Is there any significance attached to this wrt to photography?

    In Nikon's case I suspect that the "X" may be a graphic illustration of the diagonals for the frame / format which then can be either "DX" for Digital Only or "FX" for the Full 35mm, and recently "CX" probably for Compact system - it's pure guessing, I have no idea.
    Still, that was why I imagined a possible Nikon Medium format might get the designation "MX" for Medium, or "NX" for the next-new-nonsense-name ... or whatever
    We may never know.

    As for the D3X model designation my guess would be something like "extra" or "extended", but who really knows or cares, the important thing is: how much is it

    And besides, why Fuji, Sigma, Leica and others have also recently used this X letter designation, I have no idea.
    Maybe it's just a trendy letter these years, and next year it will be something else, who knows ?

    Hm, Merry Zmas doesn't look good

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    Re: Could there be no D4x due to the D800 ??

    The "X" has always been popular in consumer marketing, not least with cars. It stands for "eXtra" but is also a symbol for the unknown. Ford used it extensively in Europe during the sixties and seventies (XL, GXL etc.) and CitroŽn at some point named their models AX, BX and CX.

    Panasonic is also using the X now (GX and the new X-series lenses).

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    Re: Could there be no D4x due to the D800 ??

    I don't know, Dx0 mark sensor ratings put the NEX-7 with it's sub-atomic photosites in the upper ranks. I'll venture the D4x will have 56 megapixels, being an FX version the same technology. I would expect them to pull another DxO point out of it across the board, and maybe even whip up some noise magic sauce to distance itself further. Using one diffraction limit calculator of many, it appears 56 megapixels in a 36x24 sensor would start to degrade after stopping down past f/6.4ish and that would likely be our dirty little secret/cross to bear. That'll buy them another cycle to get the medium format thing going.
    Last edited by danielmoore; 21st January 2012 at 23:07. Reason: type

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    Re: Could there be no D4x due to the D800 ??

    I think there might very well be a D4x, there are people that probably want both the larger resolution as well as the larger body, better sealing, better vertical shooting, more robust body, etc...

    Even with the D700 there were still people buying a D3...

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    Re: Could there be no D4x due to the D800 ??

    I think there will be a D4x.
    It's not expensive for Nikon to change sensors in the D4 body.
    That's really what they did with the D3.

    Shooters like me prefer a more solid body like the D4 instead of the D800 which is really a pro-sumer camera.

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    Re: Could there be no D4x due to the D800 ??

    What would the point of a D4x be now that the D800 has 36MP and no AA filter? Same software and electronics as the D4 too. I think Canon and Nikon learned that the x and ds lines just don't make any sense anymore. They've been wanting to combine both the sports and landscape cameras for a long time. The market told them it was time to do so in the last generation. They would get no benefit from losing money, introducing another very low volume product.

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    Re: Could there be no D4x due to the D800 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Dustbak View Post
    I think there might very well be a D4x, there are people that probably want both the larger resolution as well as the larger body, better sealing, better vertical shooting, more robust body, etc...

    Even with the D700 there were still people buying a D3...
    There might be a market for a D4x, but the question that both Nikon and Canon must answer is - Does the potential volume justify creating and supporting a marginal product? I could be wrong, but I think the answer is NO.

    I was one of the ones who "upgraded" from the D700 to the D3. Well, I realized that was a mistake. While the portrait grip was nice, I had to carry that extra weight around even when I wanted to use it in landscape mode. At least for me, the answer is a camera with no grip. Nikon reducing the weight and size of the D800 shows Nikon is aware of the market demand for better handling.

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    Re: Could there be no D4x due to the D800 ??

    There is a market! Lot's of people bought a D3x!
    Did Nikon make money with the D3x,of course they did.

    Like I said before,it doesn't cost that much to replace the sensor in the D4 and call it a D4x.
    I would buy one on the spot.

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    Re: Could there be no D4x due to the D800 ??

    You'd need 2.5x the processing speed and 2.5x the buffer if you want to keep the frame rate with 36 Mpx. And if you don't care about frame rate then perhaps the D800 is the right camera?
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    Re: Could there be no D4x due to the D800 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Rethmeier View Post
    There is a market! Lot's of people bought a D3x!
    Did Nikon make money with the D3x,of course they did.

    Like I said before,it doesn't cost that much to replace the sensor in the D4 and call it a D4x.
    I would buy one on the spot.
    How many people bought the D3x?

    How much money did Nikon make?

    Has the market changed?

    How much would it cost to change the sensor and rebadge the body and packaging?

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    Re: Could there be no D4x due to the D800 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    How many people bought the D3x?

    How much money did Nikon make?

    Has the market changed?

    How much would it cost to change the sensor and rebadge the body and packaging?
    I quess,we will have to wait and see.

    I also expect the D4x to have a on/off AA filter.

    Now we are talking!

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    Re: Could there be no D4x due to the D800 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Rethmeier View Post
    There is a market! Lot's of people bought a D3x!
    Did Nikon make money with the D3x,of course they did.

    Like I said before,it doesn't cost that much to replace the sensor in the D4 and call it a D4x.
    I would buy one on the spot.
    A lot of people also bought 1Ds MIII. Then when the 5DII came out, the sales of the 1Ds plummeted. I think both companies know there is massive cannibalization. I could be wrong, but I still think there will never be another x model again unless there is a 50mp FF sensor next year to match the NEX-7 sensor's pixel density. Anyway, I'm not against an x model, I just think Nikon has learned from the Canon 5DII experience.

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    Re: Could there be no D4x due to the D800 ??

    I think the 5DII is popular mainly for it's video use.

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    Re: Could there be no D4x due to the D800 ??

    There's a market for a D4X if Nikon can build in enough features to make it an attractive option. The first thing hat spring to my mind is more processing capacity, but also things like built in ND-filter, selectable AA-filter as mentioned above, hybrid viewfinder etc.

    While it often seems as if everything useful has been included in a product, the suppliers manage to churn out another new gadget or two. Would any of us have anticipated the kind of cameras we are using now, say ten years ago? It will never end.
    Last edited by Jorgen Udvang; 7th February 2012 at 19:57.

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    Re: Could there be no D4x due to the D800 ??

    D3x second hand prices should be a good indicator. My guess is they will plummet over the next six months. D800 should be significantly superior on almost all fronts, so that would be an indicator of how much people are willing to pay for the D3/D4 style body.
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    Re: Could there be no D4x due to the D800 ??

    if there's going to be a d4x, i imagine three viable options off the top of my head:

    1) larger than FX format a la leica S2, or slightly larger at 32x48 perhaps (i.e., stitch 4 DX sensors together...taking the sony 24mp sensor for example, that's a 96mp beast).

    2) scale up the sony 24mp DX sensor to 54mp

    3) scale up the nikon 1 sensor to 72mp

    option 3 would be hideously diffraction limited, technically...but the nikon 1 actually takes remarkable photos for what it is, and scaled up, i imagine it would be pretty mind blowing. i would bet the sheer resolution would do a fair job of fighting off the diffraction, in effect.

    option 1 would be using a noisier sensor, but at 96mp and MF size, does it even matter?
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    Re: Could there be no D4x due to the D800 ??

    In my opinion...theree would still be a D4x..Ive been waiting for it for a long time..Nikon wouldnt let us down!!!

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    Re: Could there be no D4x due to the D800 ??

    As a dealer, based on the types of users that buy cameras, I would strongly suspect there will be no D4x ... at least for some time. Maybe in the future they might migrate the new sensor into the D4 body, but the demand for this type of body is pretty low. The same applies for the D1x .. I don't suspect a high resolution version of this from Canon at least for some time.

    Currently the market seems to be in 3 or 4 distinct segments. the top two you have the sports/news shooters who need rugged, fast, high ISO, fast focus. Birders and wildlife shooters usually like the same gear. Then you have the people shooters and the landscape shooters and the like. There are a LOT more of them, and they are much more budget conscious. Resolution is their priority, and current ISO performance makes them happy. (when I mean a lot, i'm talking in the order of hundreds to 1). the d800 and the comparable Canon is their bread and butter pro camera.

    Canon found this out the 5D Mark2, which pretty much killed sales of the 1Ds Mark3. 1D Mark3/4's still had a certain following, but hardly anyone wanted a 1Ds3. Certainly there are exceptions to this, but that's the current reality.

    I applaud them both, because they could have chosen a different path, forcing the ones that wanted the higher resolution to pay for all the other technology that goes into their top of the line cameras (which is a substantial expense). This is where Nikon has been over the past few years with the D3x and they have lost shooters to canon because the cost was too high. You could buy a 5dMark2 and a couple of good canon lenses for less than a d3x.

    Now they've got it right, and looks like they've hit a home run with the combo of the D4/d800. Many of those Nikon shooters that moved to Canon still have their glass ... some will be coming back.

    As a dealer we still feel Nikon had a hole in their line up but today we met with the rep. We were excited today that despite the announcement we moved the final d700 body - nothing like getting stuck with a body no one wants (such as the 1DMark4's I have gathering dust on the shelf). According to our rep (and yes, reps don't always know everything) the Nikon d700 is not being discontinued, but will shortly see a price adjustment. If they drop it far enough it will work out well. Smart too ... it's still a great camera, so why not leverage the technology a little longer.
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    Re: Could there be no D4x due to the D800 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Fox View Post
    According to our rep (and yes, reps don't always know everything) the Nikon d700 is not being discontinued, but will shortly see a price adjustment. If they drop it far enough it will work out well. Smart too ... it's still a great camera, so why not leverage the technology a little longer.
    If Nikon were to release a D700s update with the D3s sensor (video, high ISO), you'd have two great cameras (D700s and D800) filling different but complementary needs, and the D700s would not cannibalize on the D4 sales (older tech, lower MP, slower AF, smaller buffer vis a vis D4). And given Nikon's history of reusing sensors, this makes perfect sense (plus it further recoups RD and production costs already in place).

    But, I may just be dreaming....

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    Re: Could there be no D4x due to the D800 ??

    Ever tried using a manual focus lens on D700 (or Canon 1DS)? It is painful - I can hardly see things through it. Maybe Sony A900 is better, but I have never tried it. Nikon D3 viewinder was wonderful to look through - I could actually see what I was focusing. So yeah, just because of viewfinder and my manual lenses I would like D4x. Actually, what I would like to see is d800 HP.

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    Re: Could there be no D4x due to the D800 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnius View Post
    Ever tried using a manual focus lens on D700 (or Canon 1DS)? It is painful - I can hardly see things through it. Maybe Sony A900 is better, but I have never tried it. Nikon D3 viewinder was wonderful to look through - I could actually see what I was focusing. So yeah, just because of viewfinder and my manual lenses I would like D4x. Actually, what I would like to see is d800 HP.
    Doesn't the new D800/E have a 100% viewfinder, compared to the 97/98% of the D700?
    With this, is there really a need to the D4X, and what do you guys really expect from it, apart from more MP? I'm asking because I'm curious as to what the D800/E will not give you now?

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    Re: Could there be no D4x due to the D800 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by pophoto View Post
    Doesn't the new D800/E have a 100% viewfinder, compared to the 97/98% of the D700?
    With this, is there really a need to the D4X, and what do you guys really expect from it, apart from more MP? I'm asking because I'm curious as to what the D800/E will not give you now?
    Well, Canon 1Ds also has 100% viewfinder, but it is still so difficult to use manual focus lenses. I don't think it is the size %, it is "exit pupil". Canon no longer has it (shame, as I like the quality of the files it produces) and Nikon D3 (and D4 I hope) does. So specs be damned, seeing is believing.
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    Re: Could there be no D4x due to the D800 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Lars Vinberg View Post
    You'd need 2.5x the processing speed and 2.5x the buffer if you want to keep the frame rate with 36 Mpx. And if you don't care about frame rate then perhaps the D800 is the right camera?
    Why on earth would you need a fast frame rate with a D4x?

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    Re: Could there be no D4x due to the D800 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Rethmeier View Post
    Why on earth would you need a fast frame rate with a D4x?
    I'm at an air show at the moment. Fast frame rate, a deep buffer and lots of megapixels, yes, please. Even the D2Xs runs out of buffer space on occasions here (typically when a fighter plane makes a sharp turn with afterburner and all).

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    Re: Could there be no D4x due to the D800 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Rethmeier View Post
    Why on earth would you need a fast frame rate with a D4x?
    That was referring to the post above mine that asked for simply replacing the D4 sensor with the D800 sensor. Lots more data to process so for that to make sense processing capacity would have to be beefed up. Otherwise you might as well get a D800 with a grip.
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    Re: Could there be no D4x due to the D800 ??

    If there ever will be a D4x,I bet you it won't be the same as a D800 with a grip.
    Nikon can't be that stupid.

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