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Thread: D800

  1. #101
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    Re: D800

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    They didn t eliminate the AA filter ...they still have the 2 low pass filters same as the D800 ..they just did not impart the blur (they use different filters ) . I am totally amazed that they didn t price the camera at $4000 .
    Roger, re-read what I posted. The AA part is the LiNbO3 (Lithium Niobiate). I have taken apart enough of the AA/UV/IR filter stacks to type what I did.

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    Re: D800

    Quote Originally Posted by pophoto View Post
    I don't think Nikon will release a 36MP camera that will shoot themselves in the foot with regards to the current lenses not being able to handle it....
    Ha! Like Canon did? They quickly released some Mark II lenses after the 1Ds Mark III IIRC, e.g. the 16-35 and 24L.

  3. #103
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    Re: D800

    Most definitely exciting times. It should be extremely interesting when the D800E is put through its paces and accurate and real world assesments can be made with regards to various lens performance and requirements in order to extract maximum potential from it's sensor. When this is done, especially with the raw files, we'll all have a better handle on the capability and strengths and possible weaknesses of this camera.

    It will be interesting to see how the resulting D800e images will compare "head on" to medium format, especially to the current crop of 40MP models. No doubt the medium format manufacturers are well aware of the situation regarding competition and although it might take quite some time, I'm sure will respond by upping the ante, in making their entry level 40 MP backs (or cameras in the case of the 645D) competitive in both pricing structures, technology, and/or raising the MP level for these backs/cameras...all to increase the level of image quality output. Of course there are obvious differences between a 40MP MF backs & cameras vs. a 36MP 35mm DSLR, but those real and perceived differences are not always recognized by those who initially contemplate making a move from 35mm to MF and often only go simply by "the MP numbers".

    I'm personally waiting to see and eventually try out optics on a D800E body when lenses are shot at the more open apertures. Something tells me that even the best lenses currently out there, are going to be "stressed" when performance across the entire frame is considered, when shot at wider apertures....although of course for landscape shooters, their target f-stop will be close to the diffraction limit.

    This is where cameras like the S2 may have a distinct advanatge, in the ability of the lenses for that system, to be shot close to wide open and still take advantage of resolving power of the entire system. It remains to be seen how the D800E compares, in general.

    Dave (D&A)
    Last edited by D&A; 8th February 2012 at 08:52.

  4. #104
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    Re: D800

    Well, it turns out that they haven't actually left out the AA filter - they've just changed it so that it does't blur the image.

    If you scroll down near the bottom you'll see details of the AA filter and why they don't charge less. (seems like a strange definition of NO AA FILTER to me!)

    Rob Galbraith link

    Interestingly - I was at my local pusher, and he said that he had 130 pre orders for the 800, and only 35 for the 800e.

    I'd guess that for those who haven't previously had a camera without AA filter (most Nikon users) then the 800 sounds like a safer bet.

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    Re: D800

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    I'd guess that for those who haven't previously had a camera without AA filter (most Nikon users) then the 800 sounds like a safer bet.
    Him: Can I buy a $3300 camera?

    Her: WHAT!

    Him: It is the only camera I will ever need.

    Her: That is what you always say!

    Him: Well, I could get it for less than $3000...
    Actually, looking at the Nikon examples, I am not sure the AA filter is having a real impact. I hope someone does a direct comparison, but I think there may be nothing in it.

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    Re: D800

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Actually, looking at the Nikon examples, I am not sure the AA filter is having a real impact. I hope someone does a direct comparison, but I think there may be nothing in it.
    Keep in mind the online samples are processed JPEGs with likely beta-level software/algorithms, etc. I think if they published some RAW files (and we had a means to decode them) it might be a little more interesting.

    Even Canon hasn't offered better with their 1Dx samples for the same reason (which look quite disappointing at this stage, actually).

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    Re: D800

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Negative View Post
    Ha! Like Canon did? They quickly released some Mark II lenses after the 1Ds Mark III IIRC, e.g. the 16-35 and 24L.
    Actually, that's very true, but I at least they quickly did something about it. I think for Nikon their primes are completely new, so I would have thought this was in their consideration and most of the sample images on the website were taken with their trinity zooms.

    Luckily for me, my canon lenses are all 'L II', and I never kept the 16-35, I don't think this is a good lens, perhaps it is to others!

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    Re: D800

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Well, it turns out that they haven't actually left out the AA filter - they've just changed it so that it does't blur the image.

    If you scroll down near the bottom you'll see details of the AA filter and why they don't charge less. (seems like a strange definition of NO AA FILTER to me!)

    Rob Galbraith link

    Interestingly - I was at my local pusher, and he said that he had 130 pre orders for the 800, and only 35 for the 800e.

    I'd guess that for those who haven't previously had a camera without AA filter (most Nikon users) then the 800 sounds like a safer bet.
    Actually in the Nikon website it describes that a extra filter was added to the D800E version to cancel out the effects of the AA (blur filter)

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    Re: D800

    On top of all my reading, it was described either on the Nikon site or from their testers, that the higher MP has brought in the effects of MF, that bad handling picks up more blur (from shake/vibration) and shooting in higher shutter speeds or using a tripod is more advised in certain circumstances, this to me is very interesting .... don't know what to make of it until I get one in my hands.

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    Re: D800

    Quote Originally Posted by pophoto View Post
    Actually, that's very true, but I at least they quickly did something about it. I think for Nikon their primes are completely new, so I would have thought this was in their consideration and most of the sample images on the website were taken with their trinity zooms.

    Luckily for me, my canon lenses are all 'L II', and I never kept the 16-35, I don't think this is a good lens, perhaps it is to others!
    True, true. Canon did move swiftly on that one. Go figure, I had the Mark I 16-35 (and still do). You're right; it's not a very good lens all things considered, even on 1.3x crop - I can only imagine how it much be on FF. But I refuse to get the Mark II (or the new 24-70 Mark II) partly because I'm done with buying filters; I like that I can share 72/77 filters across all my L primes and zooms... Not about to add 82mm as well. And I like my "classic" 24-70 just fine. The "reverse zoom" and hood arrangement is actually better than on the new one which uses a more normal system now.

    As much as I love my Canons and L lenses, if they can't come up with a decent body soon, I might just can the whole platform. Truth be told, since going Leica (and Hassy) back in 2008 I've been using the Canon stuff less and less to the point I hardly use it anymore. With the cash I could buy a nice MF system instead.

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    Re: D800

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    About diffraction on the D800E - take a look at Diglloyd.com

    Lloyd has a theory about diffraction being actually the perfect match for the high resolution - f11 being the fstop which will effectivly eliminate any possible moiree :

    diglloyd.com blog - Nikon D800E: More on Moiré

    Cool - in german we call this catch two flies with one hit.

    Regards
    Stefan
    diffraction is diffraction the D4 looks a lot smarter

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    Re: D800

    Whether this camera fits your needs or not the D800 will be a home run for Nikon and they will sell everyone they can build. I also see some who trash the V1 but despite those views this has also been a huge success for them. Between the D4 and D800 Nikon is going to have a very good year.

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    Re: D800

    Once I got a D3x I was amazed by the tonality, detail and robustness of the files.

    I sold my D3 and D700 and never looked back.

    The D800E will be another step forward. I expect the files to be mind blowing.

    Will they be as good as a $40,000 MF camera?

    In my hands, much, much better.

    In the hands of a tripod using, low ISO MF master? I don't actually care.

    For me, it's gold.

    I'm also excited that Nikon brought the low volume E model to market for just $300 more.

    Once I have a D4 and a D800E I imagine my D3x will be on the block.

    Best,

    Bill
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    Re: D800

    Bill,
    I have to agree with you. While MFD has it's amazing capabilities, the fact that I have to rob a bank to pay for one and keep a DSLR around for the low-light, fast action stuff I usually shoot keeps me from making the jump. While the D800E is not an MFDB by any stretch of the imagination, it's good enough for me.
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    Re: D800

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    They didn t eliminate the AA filter ...they still have the 2 low pass filters same as the D800 ..they just did not impart the blur (they use different filters ) . I am totally amazed that they didn t price the camera at $4000 .
    Roger, I will retract my earlier post. I have no idea what Nikon are doing here.

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    Re: D800

    Well some of us Nikon DSLR users have experience with their cameras coming direct from the factory with no AA filter. But the last one was in 1998 or so, before the D1.

    The Nikon D1 pictures lack the Pop that the Nikon E3 pictures have.

    I paid Kodak an extra $4000 to leave the IR cut filter off of a DCS200. They had to do a custom run of the CCD's through the Fab line. That was 20 years ago. Process change and testing can be expensive for smaller runs.

    I'm glad to see the D800e in Nikon's line-up.

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    Re: D800

    I just rip these AA/UV/IR filter stacks out myself and convert them for multi-spectral or UV only or IR only use.

    I do have an ongoing (ambitious) project to get rid of the Bayer dyes to have a true monochrome cam. It would be D40x or a D200 or a D300- all are lined up for this purpose.

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    Re: D800

    I wonder if Kodak's original process of annealing the cover glass with the IR cut filter is responsible for it going 20 years and still working. The cover glass is impossible to remove. I tried with one.

    Other cameras- the filters are easily removed.

    I've read that some people have used acetone to take off the Mosaic color filters. This would not work on the Kodak sensors- the RGB filter is under the cover glass.

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    Re: D800

    The sensors I have looked at (Sony & Panasonic) have a permanent clear glass cover, hermetically sealing the sensor. This is is epoxied. It is quite a task to remove it without damaging the sensor. After that one gets to see the sensor with a Microlens layer and under that are the Bayer dyes. No acetone (nail polish remover) won't cut it for any of these operations.

    Each of these operations warrant multiple sacrifices.

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    Re: D800

    Quote Originally Posted by pophoto View Post
    On top of all my reading, it was described either on the Nikon site or from their testers, that the higher MP has brought in the effects of MF, that bad handling picks up more blur (from shake/vibration) and shooting in higher shutter speeds or using a tripod is more advised in certain circumstances, this to me is very interesting .... don't know what to make of it until I get one in my hands.
    Doesn't surprise me, given my experience with the S2 and other MF systems - 36MP does require different technique than 12MP, for sure. Forget shooting at 1/60s handheld, with the "standard" lens....Even 1/125s is hit and miss...Once you get into these resolution numbers and if you wish to take full advantage of them (and you do, because otherwise the images look like c..p), you really need to either (a) use a tripod, or (b) shoot handheld at faster shutter speeds - 1/250s minimum with the 70mm lens and 1/500s even better or (c) use flash. And of course, focusing needs to be spot on, there is zero room for error, centimeters and sometimes millimeters make a difference...I suspect many people who buy the D800 will go through a bit of a learning curve first, and wonder initially why their 36MP images don't look as good as they had thought they would. Then they may realize that there is no free lunch and that MF-like resolution requires using MF-like shooting technique...which is not what they necessarily wanted ...My conclusion - for shooting handheld, in available light, a 15-20MP FF camera really is a better choice.

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    Re: D800

    Quote Originally Posted by baudolino View Post
    Doesn't surprise me, given my experience with the S2 and other MF systems - 36MP does require different technique than 12MP, for sure. Forget shooting at 1/60s handheld, with the "standard" lens....Even 1/125s is hit and miss...Once you get into these resolution numbers and if you wish to take full advantage of them (and you do, because otherwise the images look like c..p), you really need to either (a) use a tripod, or (b) shoot handheld at faster shutter speeds - 1/250s minimum with the 70mm lens and 1/500s even better or (c) use flash. And of course, focusing needs to be spot on, there is zero room for error, centimeters and sometimes millimeters make a difference...I suspect many people who buy the D800 will go through a bit of a learning curve first, and wonder initially why their 36MP images don't look as good as they had thought they would. Then they may realize that there is no free lunch and that MF-like resolution requires using MF-like shooting technique...which is not what they necessarily wanted ...My conclusion - for shooting handheld, in available light, a 15-20MP FF camera really is a better choice.
    +1

    Now, you may be wondering (as I do) what is the point of NEX-7 with a 24MP sensor.

    I am desperately looking for a grip for this little beast to make it more stable.

    Flash lit pictures are just brilliant.

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    Re: D800

    The Leica S2 has no image stabilization. That makes a tremendous difference; I can handhold the Sony a850 and 24-70 down to 1/25 pretty easily, especially with a vertical grip and a pole or something to lean against. I seriously expect Nikon to announce a 24-70/2.8 VR before long.

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    Re: D800

    And the S2 lenses are slower. Which means shooting wide open in limited light you have to use a higher ISO than on a D800 - and a shorter shutter speed due to no VR. It adds up.
    Monochrome: http://mochro.com

  24. #124
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    Re: D800

    Quote Originally Posted by Jan Brittenson View Post
    The Leica S2 has no image stabilization. That makes a tremendous difference; I can handhold the Sony a850 and 24-70 down to 1/25 pretty easily, especially with a vertical grip and a pole or something to lean against. I seriously expect Nikon to announce a 24-70/2.8 VR before long.
    S2 sensor is bigger ... really a different comparison thing. All the S2 did was bridge the gap between 35mm handling and that of the typical MFD. Not as stable as a 35mm DSLR with IS or VR lenses, but easier to hand-hold than a MFD rig. In other words, a form factor that's a bit more versatile than the typical MFD camera.

    D800 is a pretty cool camera that ups the ante over cameras like the Canon 5D-II and Sony A900/850 for those wanting a high resolution 35mm DSLR at a reasonable price point. For those users, what's not to love?

    Personally, I'll wait for the Sony entry since every lens I have for it is already stabilized, and I subjectively prefer the Zeiss rendering and Sony's take on color over that of Nikon by a good margin.

    Congratulations to Nikon users! Nikon has come a long way in just a few years.

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    Re: D800

    Quote Originally Posted by Lars Vinberg View Post
    And the S2 lenses are slower. Which means shooting wide open in limited light you have to use a higher ISO than on a D800 - and a shorter shutter speed due to no VR. It adds up.
    Again, a comparison between Apples and Watermelons which has been throughly hashed out in the other "Poll" thread, and need not be repeated here.

    IMO, the comparison should be against the crop of 35mm DSLRs and any user's specific needs ... including against Nikon's own D4 and any strong rumor indications from other makers. Real need and actual applications should be the criteria I would think.

    Impact on MFD? Probably. It'll lessen the dreams of an incremental move to the low end of MFD for people that would have to make a large financial "systems" commitment based on number of pixels alone. For those that grasp the whole MFD IQ story, this camera won't mean much ... unless they can't afford it ... in which case, it's not an issue, they aren't a true prospect for MFD anyway.

    This camera also solves an age-old dilemma for those who travel and had to agonize over what to take to do walk-abouts and street shooting, and also capture high res renderings of the exotic sites. What a wonderful solution, a really small powerhouse of a camera that will fit many shooters needs, but not all.

    -Marc

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    Re: D800

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Again, a comparison between Apples and Watermelons which has been throughly hashed out in the other "Poll" thread, and need not be repeated here.

    IMO, the comparison should be against the crop of 35mm DSLRs and any user's specific needs ... including against Nikon's own D4 and any strong rumor indications from other makers. Real need and actual applications should be the criteria I would think.
    Yes sorry about that - it's so easy to get dragged into those kinds of discussions. As always, I would add that cost is perhaps the most important factor.
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    Re: D800

    Well folks,

    I do not care about any comparisons, just ordered my D800E

    The best camera released ever IMHO

    Peter
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    to E or not to E


    To E or not to E ...

    On the Japanese Nikon website there is a comparison of D800 and D800E with regards to resolution and moiré.

    D800 / D800E

    At the middle of the page click the blue link below the pictures of the stone picture and the kimono picture respectively.

    The comparison to the right of the images will slowly pop up.

  29. #129
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    Re: D800

    So even in these samples the D800E looks more impressive to me

    Peter

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    Re: to E or not to E

    Quote Originally Posted by Steen View Post
    To E or not to E ...

    On the Japanese Nikon website there is a comparison of D800 and D800E with regards to resolution and moiré.

    D800 / D800E

    At the middle of the page click the blue link below the pictures of the stone picture and the kimono picture respectively.

    The comparison to the right of the images will slowly pop up.

    Below is a link to the comparison page in English.

    Nikon | Imaging Products | Nikon's original technology - Nikon D800/D800E

    Ben

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    D800


    Thanks for the link, Ben

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    D800


    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post

    So even in these samples the D800E looks more impressive to me

    I agree with you, Peter

    so if the prices of the Standard version and the E version were more or less the same I would also go with the E version ...

    or maybe I'll just sit on my hands and wait forever for the camera I really want: the true entry level FF 16 Mp Nikon D750XLPP*

    *extra large pixel pitch (or something like that)

    I have this obsession with big and bright optical viewfinders

    and big, fat photosites

    oldfashioned, I guess

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    Re: to E or not to E

    Quote Originally Posted by Steen View Post
    On the Japanese Nikon website there is a comparison of D800 and D800E with regards to resolution and moiré.

    D800 / D800E
    I think this is just for illustration purposes. No raw converter that has support for cameras without AA filters, and correctly identifies the camera used, will produce something like that.

  34. #134
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    Re: D800

    Quote Originally Posted by Steen View Post



    I agree with you, Peter

    so if the prices of the Standard version and the E version were more or less the same I would also go with the E version ...

    or maybe I'll just sit on my hands and wait forever for the camera I really want: the true entry level FF 16 Mp Nikon D750XLPP*

    *extra large pixel pitch (or something like that)

    I have this obsession with big and bright optical viewfinders

    and big, fat photosites

    oldfashioned, I guess
    Or go for the D4 - seems to be the right camera for you

    Peter

  35. #135
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    Re: D800

    I can help wondering if my old Nikon lenses just appreciated or depreciated in value on the second hand market... 85/1.4D, 135/2D DC, 16/2.8D Fisheye, 20/2.8D, 50/1.8 AIs, 180/2.8D, 12-24/4G DX, 80-200/2.8D, 300/4 AF... any good on a D800/E?

    From my own experience, especially the 180/2.8D and 300/4 are razor sharp, but that's on a D700... oh wait, I did use them on my D2X as well, that should be closer to D800 pixel pitch.
    Monochrome: http://mochro.com

  36. #136
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    Re: D800


    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post

    Or go for the D4 - seems to be the right camera for you

    only the high end high speed D4 is not exactly 'entry level', pricewise
    and I also prefer the smaller form factor
    being the slowest gun in The West I could do with a very basic and very slow entry level FF model
    not at all an easy decision for me
    either I can just sit and wait (for how long?)
    or pay what it takes to shoot the D800 while waiting for the D750XLPP
    sigh, deep thoughts ...

  37. #137
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    Re: D800

    Quote Originally Posted by Steen View Post



    only the high end high speed D4 is not exactly 'entry level', pricewise
    and I also prefer the smaller form factor
    being the slowest gun in The West I could do with a very basic and very slow entry level FF model
    not at all an easy decision for me
    either I can just sit and wait (for how long?)
    or pay what it takes to shoot the D800 while waiting for the D750XLPP
    sigh, deep thoughts ...
    Isn't D750XLPP just a longer name for D700? 16 vs 12 Mpx isn't that much of a step up. And if, as hinted by Nikon, D700 will receive a significan price drop while staying in production then it just might be what you are looking for?
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    Senior Subscriber Member Steen's Avatar
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    D800


    yes, you are probably right, Lars, but it bothers me a little to use too much money on the three and a half year old D700
    if at least they would put the D3S sensor into a D700S model it would feel more like sort of a new and up to date camera
    but if as you say there will actually be a significant price drop on the D700 then it might be a sensible FF choice while waiting
    do you remember where you have seen this hint ?

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    Re: D800

    Quote Originally Posted by Steen View Post
    do you remember where you have seen this hint ?
    Not sure, IIRC it was a comment from someone at Nikon, either Japan USA or Sweden. Then again, maye that person didnt speak for Nikon.

    EDIT: NikonRumors mentioned the same thing: Nikon D800 vs. D700 specs comparison | Nikon Rumors

    "I was told that the D700 will go down in price in the next few days - in France for example, the price is expected to drop from the current EUR 2,100 to EUR 1,800. I have no confirmation about US prices yet."
    Last edited by Lars; 13th February 2012 at 15:13.
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    Re: D800


    Thanks, Lars !

    - - - - -

    Here's a link to some full sized high ISO samples

    Nikon D800 High ISO Image Samples

    NB: The images are JPEGs, straight out of the camera.

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    Re: D800

    Quote Originally Posted by Steen View Post
    Thanks, Lars !

    - - - - -

    Here's a link to some full sized high ISO samples

    Nikon D800 High ISO Image Samples

    NB: The images are JPEGs, straight out of the camera.
    I looked at those samples over the weekend - but now I realize that what I thought was an ISO 3200 image was actually ISO 25600. Most impressive - at the pixel level I think it matches D700 which means binned down to 12Mpx it will be even better. Would you agree?
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    Re: D800

    That's what I am hoping.
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    Re: D800

    Not only high ISI is looking pretty impressive, also the resolution at lower ISO.

    Cannot wait to get my hands on my D800E

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    Re: D800

    Quote Originally Posted by Steen View Post
    yes, you are probably right, Lars, but it bothers me a little to use too much money on the three and a half year old D700
    if at least they would put the D3S sensor into a D700S model it would feel more like sort of a new and up to date camera
    but if as you say there will actually be a significant price drop on the D700 then it might be a sensible FF choice while waiting
    do you remember where you have seen this hint ?
    I'm not sure there will be a significant price drop on the D700 - or that there will be the flood of D700's onto the secondhand market that some are expecting. I suspect that a lot of amateur/semi-professionals like me will hang on to their D700 as a low light, high ISO, camera and buy a D800E for landscape and other high quality, good lighting, work. Others may buy a D700 along with a D800E for the same reason. I just wish they both used the same battery and charger…
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    Re: D800

    I just looked at second hand prices on ebay, D700 doesnt seem to be dropping sharp.

    D3x is another story though, my guess is that even though supply is limited, demand is almost nonexistent until D800 gets a chance to prove itself.
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    Re: D800

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Not only high ISI is looking pretty impressive, also the resolution at lower ISO.

    Cannot wait to get my hands on my D800E
    It's clearly the camera you've been waiting for Peter

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    Re: D800

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    It's clearly the camera you've been waiting for Peter
    I think his intentions have been vague at best, surely you're over thinking it Jono

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    D800


    so much for the so-called friendly tone around here

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    D800E


    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post

    Not only high ISI is looking pretty impressive, also the resolution at lower ISO.

    Cannot wait to get my hands on my D800E

    I had the opportunity to handle the D800 + D800E as well as the D4 two days ago at a Nikon demo event in a store.
    I'm looking forward to upgrade from my D300 for the larger end brighter optical viewfinder alone.
    But in general I can assure you that each of them looks delicious and feels good in the hands, brilliant high-end design, despite my secret wish for a 'DM3A' some day
    Unfortunately we were not allowed to shoot with our own memory cards, rather disappointing though probably to be expected.
    I see no reason to doubt that the E version with the cancelled Anti-Aliasing filtration will be a fabulous candidate for your landscape shooting, Peter

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    Re: D800

    Steen, The EM-5 comes close to your DM3A.

    Check out the links in this with the images at 100% and upscaled 4X.

    43 Rumors | Blog | New Olympus E-M5 news roundup...(new E-M5 accessories and info abotu Four Thirds lens support)

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