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Thread: d800/ACR/Neat image

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    d800/ACR/Neat image

    from the NEF examples available on web, first is 100% crop from in camera jpg, second raw conversion with ACR and neat image applied to left part of crop. (ISO 6400)
    What do you think?

    jpg from camera

    DSC_1475a by sergio lovisolo, on Flickr

    ACR conversion

    DSC_1475dn by sergio lovisolo, on Flickr

    Sergio

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    Senior Member Antonio Chagin's Avatar
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    Re: d800/ACR/Neat image

    Hi Sergio..

    Where are these NEF files??

    ACH

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    Re: d800/ACR/Neat image

    Here. Яндекс.Народ

    Put numbers in box and clic 1zip

    Sergio

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    Senior Member Antonio Chagin's Avatar
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    Re: d800/ACR/Neat image

    Thank you..!!

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    Re: d800/ACR/Neat image

    While the internal JPEG does not satisfy me, the ACR conversion is pretty good!

    Would be interesting to see the complete image!

    Peter

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    Re: d800/ACR/Neat image

    We are talking about 6400 ISO here...

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    Re: d800/ACR/Neat image

    For full size from camera jpg and ACR conversion with no noise reduction, click
    on related images and go to the "view all sizes" page.
    Later i'll post a Neat image sample.

    jpg from camera

    DSC_1475 by sergio lovisolo, on Flickr

    acr conversion

    DSC_1475acr by sergio lovisolo, on Flickr


    Sergio

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    Re: d800/ACR/Neat image

    Neat image applied (click on image and go to "view all sizes" page

    DSC_1475nr by sergio lovisolo, on Flickr

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    Re: d800/ACR/Neat image

    For the first ACR example, I assume when you say "no noise reduction" both the sliders were set at zero? If so, that's pretty amazing for 6400 ISO and so many megapixels! As for the in camera jpg, well, I guess it's still pre-production firmware and might improve? Not that I've ever shot JPG's...

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    Re: d800/ACR/Neat image

    Quote Originally Posted by tjv View Post
    For the first ACR example, I assume when you say "no noise reduction" both the sliders were set at zero? If so, that's pretty amazing for 6400 ISO and so many megapixels! As for the in camera jpg, well, I guess it's still pre-production firmware and might improve? Not that I've ever shot JPG's...
    I also do not care about JPEGs ....

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    Re: d800/ACR/Neat image

    Quote Originally Posted by tjv View Post
    For the first ACR example, I assume when you say "no noise reduction" both the sliders were set at zero? If so, that's pretty amazing for 6400 ISO and so many megapixels! As for the in camera jpg, well, I guess it's still pre-production firmware and might improve? Not that I've ever shot JPG's...
    Sliders in default settings, luminance 0, color 25.
    I must say that, looking at sample images posted on Nikon site, I have been very disappointed. Weak files, colors resembling acrylic paint, uncertain details, a sense of inconsistence.
    Conversion with ACR dramatically changes the situation. Files look very close
    (if only a little less deep) to those that I get from the pentax 645D, and perhaps
    with a little less noise at 1600 iso. Beginning to think....

    Sergio

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    Re: d800/ACR/Neat image

    Ah, I see. I didn't think the color slider was zeroed so thanks for clearing that up. Either way, it's still very impressive. The fact that we're analyzing a 6400ISO file and being this critical is saying something about how amazingly far technology has come. I'm looking forward to hearing how this new camera behaves in the wild.

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    Senior Member Antonio Chagin's Avatar
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    Re: d800/ACR/Neat image

    Asa 25.000 at 50% in ACR. You can see my corrections..


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    Re: d800/ACR/Neat image

    Wow, again I'm impressed. The details seem to hold up well all things considered.

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    Re: d800/ACR/Neat image

    As Guy Mancusio and others have pointed out numerous times ... shooting high ISO in decent light is no test of a camera's high ISO ability. Almost any camera will do well. It is in the challenging light where ISO 6400 would be employed that the true ability is revealed.

    -Marc

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    Re: d800/ACR/Neat image

    Marc, unfortunately we have only a few samples available. But the following one is in tungsten light at 2200 deg. exposed for the lamps with at significative
    underexposure for the ambient. (6400 iso nominal)
    Blue channel has been amplified to reach daylight equivalent WB.(this renders the image a little unnatural)
    At a print size of 20x30 inches noise is very well controlled (practically not visible) on full field.
    Not so bad, I think.

    ciick on image and go to "see all sizes"page


    DSC_1478acrn by sergio lovisolo, on Flickr

    Sergio

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    Re: d800/ACR/Neat image

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    As Guy Mancusio and others have pointed out numerous times ... shooting high ISO in decent light is no test of a camera's high ISO ability. Almost any camera will do well. It is in the challenging light where ISO 6400 would be employed that the true ability is revealed.

    -Marc
    Absolutely! It's the only way to test for high ISO performance from any camera, especially where unavoidable pockets of significant underexposure in such images exists and can be compared to the entire image taken in challenging light.

    Sergio, the ISO 6400 image you just posted looks promising (especially in lower corners) and from the small amount of files at higher Iso's I've seen so far from the D800, I have to say I've been a bit surprised (pleasantly) so far but am looking forward to extensive evaluation when the body is available for testing.

    Dave (D&A)

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    Re: d800/ACR/Neat image

    Me too Dave for sure. Totally agree on the tungsten vs noise scenario, simply no better way to tell and more important than anything it's tungsten light we are usually pushing the ISO hard anyway. Looking forward to testing this cam out no question as I am already buying glass and supplies in anticipation of it. I'm ready to go , let's hope NIkon is US friendly on shipment allotment. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: d800/ACR/Neat image

    BTW it does look promising but after ISO 3200 I really don't care as I would not be shooting that high anyway. I come from shooting Kodachrome with a max of ISO 80. Now that was a challenge. This stuff is a walk in the park now. ROTFLMAO
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    Re: d800/ACR/Neat image

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    BTW it does look promising but after ISO 3200 I really don't care as I would not be shooting that high anyway. I come from shooting Kodachrome with a max of ISO 80. Now that was a challenge. This stuff is a walk in the park now. ROTFLMAO
    LOL...yes, I recall the days when ISO 200 was a real eye opener and wondered how I ever got along with any ISO less than it I guess it's all relative.

    Funny, but now some complain if ISO 128,000 isn't clean!

    To be fair, it's of course easier to work with the lower ISO's when good lighting of some sort is employed, but for those shooting fast moving (indoor) performing arts, when the lighting at times is extremely low and a high enough shutter speed is manditory, the higher ISO's can certainly be a savior.

    As for Nikon releasing bodies fast enough....if past history is any indicator...the Pro bodies like the D1 thru D3 series were first released in drips and drabs in order to get feedback from pro's if there were any glitches that could quickly be addressed in early production. It was usually in Dec. and a dealer might receive 1-3 bodies prior to the New Year. Bodies like the D200/D300/D700 were released in relatively large #'s all at once. I'm guessing it's going to be the latter case with regards to the D800.

    Dave (D&A)

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    Senior Subscriber Member Steen's Avatar
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    ISO 6400 in challenging light


    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post

    As Guy Mancusio and others have pointed out numerous times ... shooting high ISO in decent light is no test of a camera's high ISO ability. Almost any camera will do well. It is in the challenging light where ISO 6400 would be employed that the true ability is revealed.

    -Marc

    So, how about the above tungsten light shot, Marc, don't you think it looks good ?


    I would have liked a pixel pitch of about ~ 6 m just like the sensors in your A900 and your S2 respectively.

    But for a 4.9 m pixel pitch camera at ISO 6400 I actually think the above tungsten light shot looks rather impressive.

    At least it makes me optimistic.

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    Re: d800/ACR/Neat image

    Quote Originally Posted by sergio lovisolo View Post
    Marc, unfortunately we have only a few samples available. But the following one is in tungsten light at 2200 deg. exposed for the lamps with at significative
    underexposure for the ambient. (6400 iso nominal)
    Blue channel has been amplified to reach daylight equivalent WB.(this renders the image a little unnatural)
    At a print size of 20x30 inches noise is very well controlled (practically not visible) on full field.
    Not so bad, I think.

    ciick on image and go to "see all sizes"page


    DSC_1478acrn by sergio lovisolo, on Flickr

    Sergio
    That's not bad at all for 6400 on a high res camera ... Typical flatness of high ISO, but the details are rendered nicely and the noise structure doesn't offend like some can. Promising.

    -Marc

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    Re: d800/ACR/Neat image

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    Absolutely! It's the only way to test for high ISO performance from any camera, especially where unavoidable pockets of significant underexposure in such images exists and can be compared to the entire image taken in challenging light.

    Sergio, the ISO 6400 image you just posted looks promising (especially in lower corners) and from the small amount of files at higher Iso's I've seen so far from the D800, I have to say I've been a bit surprised (pleasantly) so far but am looking forward to extensive evaluation when the body is available for testing.

    Dave (D&A)
    Sergio,

    To add a question to my comments (above)...I assume with this particular image (that was taken at ISO 6400), that no neat image or post processing noise reduction program was applied? Additionally do you have some idea what the in-camera menu was set regarding noise? "low" or "off"? Thanks!

    DAve (D&A)

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    Re: d800/ACR/Neat image

    Dave,
    I converted with ACR and default noise settings (luminance 0, color 25) this eliminates
    the faint chroma noise. Than I applied neat image controlling that the finest detail present
    would not be blurred. Just for comparison, I'll post a copy with no raw noise processing.
    This should eliminate also any effect of the in camera menu for jpg conversion.
    Sergio

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    Re: d800/ACR/Neat image

    Quote Originally Posted by sergio lovisolo View Post
    Dave,
    I converted with ACR and default noise settings (luminance 0, color 25) this eliminates
    the faint chroma noise. Than I applied neat image controlling that the finest detail present
    would not be blurred. Just for comparison, I'll post a copy with no raw noise processing.
    This should eliminate also any effect of the in camera menu for jpg conversion.
    Sergio
    Hi Sergio,

    Posting that would be great and it would be good for comparitive purposes. Thanks!

    Dave (D&A)

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    Re: d800/ACR/Neat image

    It has been necessary to crop the image, in order to comply with flickr upload limitations without excessively compressing the file.
    I find that file is very flexible, for exposure, wb, noise correction and so on.
    Just the default chroma slider application, and chroma noise is gone in ACR.
    And the file is also very responsive to a very light neat image application with
    no generation of jpg artifacts.(note that histogram shows 1 stop underexposure)

    No neat image, all acr noise sliders at 0


    DSC_1478acrc by sergio lovisolo, on Flickr

    Sergio

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    Re: d800/ACR/Neat image

    Wondering if noise setting off in camera is really off outside of there software. I know Capture NX2 you have the option of turning it on and off. I just don't want it applied to say ACR or C1 for that matter. I would assume on/off with in-camera jpeg is just what it says . Just curious on the NEF file.
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    Re: d800/ACR/Neat image


    Quote Originally Posted by sergio lovisolo View Post

    (...) No neat image, all acr noise sliders at 0 (...)

    Ok, now that's more like what I would normally expect from ISO 6400, i.e. something I would still try to avoid if possible.

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    Re: d800/ACR/Neat image

    Well, we must consider that a raw is just a bunch of datas that must be converted by some media to appear as an image. At the end, the result is all that matters, and in this
    case i have been pleasantly surprised.
    ACR and other programs are there to tune the raw to generate a final usable output, and
    D800 files have -at this preliminary state- shown a good dose of robustness and flexibi-
    lity, also with a shot like this that is clearly underexposed.
    Images (jpg) on Nikon site are really disappointing, notwistanding the notoriety of photographers behind them, while these badly executed raws are more useful to understand real capabilities of this camera.

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    Re: d800/ACR/Neat image

    Thanks for posting!
    I'm a little confused though, so this is with ACR with ALL NR sliders at 0? Color is not at the default of 25?
    Thanks again,
    Tim

    Quote Originally Posted by sergio lovisolo View Post
    It has been necessary to crop the image, in order to comply with flickr upload limitations without excessively compressing the file.
    I find that file is very flexible, for exposure, wb, noise correction and so on.
    Just the default chroma slider application, and chroma noise is gone in ACR.
    And the file is also very responsive to a very light neat image application with
    no generation of jpg artifacts.(note that histogram shows 1 stop underexposure)

    No neat image, all acr noise sliders at 0


    DSC_1478acrc by sergio lovisolo, on Flickr

    Sergio

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    Re: d800/ACR/Neat image

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Wondering if noise setting off in camera is really off outside of there software. I know Capture NX2 you have the option of turning it on and off. I just don't want it applied to say ACR or C1 for that matter. I would assume on/off with in-camera jpeg is just what it says . Just curious on the NEF file.
    Guy, specifically speaking about the NEF's (although I assume it also applies to jpegs), my understanding is that it's always been in previous Pro Nikon bodies, that when you shut "off" NR via the menu setting within the camera body, that in camera noise reduction is "off" and not applied to the file. The option Nikon gives you is say if you had set it to "off", "low", or any NR setting and then brought the RAW file into NX2, you would be able to change your choice to any other one offered. Conversely, once you pick a NR level "in-camera" or even select "off", you can't change you choice if you've brought the file into say ACR instead of NX2.

    Of course, who knows what hocus pocus algorithims are applied to all images during the cameras recording of a NEF, in order to achieve cleaner high ISO files to begin with, prior to setting any in-camera NR option.

    Dave (D&A)

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    Re: d800/ACR/Neat image

    Quote Originally Posted by tjv View Post
    Thanks for posting!
    I'm a little confused though, so this is with ACR with ALL NR sliders at 0? Color is not at the default of 25?
    Thanks again,
    Tim
    Tim, yes, color noise slider to 0 too in this conversion, as asked by Dave.
    My findings are that raw D800 files are very responsive to corrections applied
    in ACR -with the color noise slider at the default setting 25, color noise is completely eliminated-and that luminance noise is very well controlled with
    e.g. neat image, such that after conversion a 6400 iso D800 image is not that far from a 645D 1600 iso.
    When the first real images (those posted on the Nikon site are IMO disappointing, flat, uncertain jpg conversions ) will begin to show, I am sure
    that the real quality of files will be evident.


    Sergio

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    Re: d800/ACR/Neat image

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    ..... The option Nikon gives you is say if you had set it to "off", "low", or any NR setting and then brought the RAW file into NX2, you would be able to change your choice to any other one offered. Conversely, once you pick a NR level "in-camera" or even select "off", you can't change you choice if you've brought the file into say ACR instead of NX2.

    Dave (D&A)
    Hi Dave,

    Lightroom/ACR or any other RAW converter, except NX2, cannot read the in-camera settings (except the WB, and even the latter is a guess as Nikon choose to encrypt the data). So it really does not matter what your in-camera settings are when shooting RAW. Whether you had noise reduction "on" or "off", your image will look the same when imported into LR/ACR. From there you can apply as many noise reduction you want - or none at all.

    Of course, when you had noise reduction "on" in-camera, you will see that effect on the LCD on the back of the camera, as only an embedded JPEG is shown.

    cheers,
    Remko

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    Re: d800/ACR/Neat image

    Thanks again Sergio!
    In my opinion, without knowing all the variables, I reckon this is more than great for my purposes and certainly a big step up from my D700 considering the massive resolution gain. As long as the low ISO files have good colour depth and editing headroom, I can't see how the D800/E wouldn't make its way into my gear bag.
    T

    Quote Originally Posted by sergio lovisolo View Post
    Tim, yes, color noise slider to 0 too in this conversion, as asked by Dave.
    My findings are that raw D800 files are very responsive to corrections applied
    in ACR -with the color noise slider at the default setting 25, color noise is completely eliminated-and that luminance noise is very well controlled with
    e.g. neat image, such that after conversion a 6400 iso D800 image is not that far from a 645D 1600 iso.
    When the first real images (those posted on the Nikon site are IMO disappointing, flat, uncertain jpg conversions ) will begin to show, I am sure
    that the real quality of files will be evident.


    Sergio

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    Re: d800/ACR/Neat image

    Quote Originally Posted by Remko View Post
    Hi Dave,

    Lightroom/ACR or any other RAW converter, except NX2, cannot read the in-camera settings (except the WB, and even the latter is a guess as Nikon choose to encrypt the data). So it really does not matter what your in-camera settings are when shooting RAW. Whether you had noise reduction "on" or "off", your image will look the same when imported into LR/ACR. From there you can apply as many noise reduction you want - or none at all.

    Of course, when you had noise reduction "on" in-camera, you will see that effect on the LCD on the back of the camera, as only an embedded JPEG is shown.

    cheers,
    Remko
    Hi Remko,

    Thats the way I used to understand it, but in multiple conversations with Nikon, they claim that when shooting RAW, if the in-camera NR setting is say on medium and you bring the file into LR or ACR, it will show the effects of NR. I never quite understood how that could be. I have to go back to the D800 guide but if I am not mistaken, I thought they also implied the same things (but don't quote me on that). Thanks!

    Dave (D&A)

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    Re: d800/ACR/Neat image

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    Hi Remko,

    Thats the way I used to understand it, but in multiple conversations with Nikon, they claim that when shooting RAW, if the in-camera NR setting is say on medium and you bring the file into LR or ACR, it will show the effects of NR. I never quite understood how that could be. I have to go back to the D800 guide but if I am not mistaken, I thought they also implied the same things (but don't quote me on that). Thanks!

    Dave (D&A)
    Hi Dave,

    The proof of the pudding is in the eating, is it not ? ;-)
    So I just made a small test and set my D3 to 6400 ISO and made two shots; one with High ISO Noise reduction in-camera set to "Off" and another one with the setting "High".

    I imported both photos into the most recent version of Capture NX2 and into LR 4.
    I then zoomed in to 100%.
    In NX2 you do see the difference between the two photos very clearly. And yes, you can switch the Noise reduction to other settings including "Off".
    In LR4 there is no difference at all between the two photos.

    There is only one in-camera setting that does influence your RAW photo and that is Active D-Lighting (ADL). The reason is that it works by underexposing your imaging to preserve the highlights. If you import that image into NX2 you get a "good" looking image by having NX2 using a kind of Fill Light algorithm. But importing that same image into any other RAW converter and you are left with a grossly underexposed image. You cannot undo this ADL in-camera setting afterwards in other RAW converters.

    Maybe people from Nikon were mixing things up?? Or, maybe, it is the classic FUD (Fear Uncertainty and Doubt)?? "Heh, you have to use NX2 or .....", who knows?

    I have no experience with ADL, other then playing a bit with it when I first got my camera. I do not like ADL to interfer with my RAW, and if needed I use exposure bracketing.

    Hope this helps.

    cheers,
    Remko

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    Re: d800/ACR/Neat image

    Thanks ever so much Remko for both your Noise reduction test and the one with ADL. With regards to setting noise reduction and shooting RAW, it always made sense to me that it would have no effect on the image when importing it into "ACR", "LR" or any post processing software other than NX2. Yet Nikon kept insisting in the conversations I had with them, that it would, although by conventional wisdom, I didn't understand how? I never looked into this much for two reasons. The first was I was never a fan of NX2, simply because it was always too slow for processing extremely large # of files at a time. Secondly, if a file or files do need some form of noise reduction, I generally prefer to use a 3rd party noise reduction program. As for ADL, like yourself, I too do not want it to influence my RAW exposure.

    I may have read or interpreted it wrong, but I thought the wording in the D800 guide did state that setting noise reduction in RAW would have an effect on these types of files, but only with NX2 can one can change the NR setting in post processing. This is in contrast to using other RAW processors other than NX2, where the chosen setting "is" applied to the Raw file and is "set" and cannot be changed. I'll have to go back to the guide and reread what they wrote.

    Thanks again for posting this....makes sense!

    Dave (D&A)
    Last edited by D&A; 17th March 2012 at 07:08.

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    Re: d800/ACR/Neat image

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    I may have read or interpreted it wrong, but I thought the wording in the D800 guide did state that setting noise reduction in RAW would have an effect on these types of files, but only with NX2 can one can change the NR setting in post processing. This is in contrast to using other RAW processors other than NX2, where the chosen setting "is" applied to the Raw file and is "set" and cannot be changed. I'll have to go back to the guide and reread what they wrote.

    Thanks again for posting this....makes sense!

    Dave (D&A)
    Glad I could be of any help, Dave!

    I am not sure I understand you correctly about settings that are applied to RAW files that cannot be changed in other RAW converters.
    One of the beauties of shooting RAW is that the chosen in-camera settings, IF they are taken into account by your RAW converter at all, can be changed afterwards to whatever you feel comfortable with without having a negative impact on the image quality. Only with JPEGs the in-camera settings are baked into your photo.
    So when e.g. using ACR as your converter, it even does not matter what your in-camera settings were, as they cannot be read by ACR, except the setting for white balance. And even the latter is more of a guess, due to Nikon's choice of encrypting this information.

    But again, maybe I misunderstood you.

    Cheers,
    Remko

  39. #39
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    Re: d800/ACR/Neat image

    Hi Remko,

    Put more simply, Nikon on a number of occasions has implied that with RAW images (NEFS), that regardless of what in-camera setting one chooses for noise reduction, it can be changed in NX2....whereas if one chooses a particular noise reduction in-camera setting and then brings that NEF into a RAW conveter other than NX2, it cannot be changed. WHen questioned further they implied that in-camera noise reduction when shooting RAW does impact the image but simply it cannot be changed unless one uses NX2. This is obvious wrong or an unintentional misinterpretation and I think (although may be mistaken), that they now implied the same thing in their D800 guide. I think though from what I briefly read in the guide, their statement can be interpreted two different ways.

    In any case as to not confuse the issue, I don't really see any way at present that noise reduction can be applied to a RAW "NEF"file and then take effect and be interpreted by any RAW converter except NX2.

    Dave (D&A)

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