Site Sponsors
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 1 2
Results 51 to 83 of 83

Thread: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

  1. #51
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    3,623
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Sensor wise I believe! Not WRT all components - like lenses etc.

    But system wise (choice of lenses etc) it will be also true.
    Hi Peter,
    I dont have a D800 only a D700, si I cant judge from own experience, but I frankly couldnt imagine in which regard the Nikon sensor should be better than the S2 sensor...except noise at images over 640ISO.

    System wise/Choice of lenses Nikon offers much more for sure if choice means the quantity to choose from.
    If someone needs very wide, or very long glass, or zooms in a reasonable size I guess Canon and Nikon offer much more.
    But on the other side there is no 50mm Nikon lens which offers the same quality like the 70mm/2.5 S lens (I like 50mm fov a lot),
    there is not short tele lens from Nikon like the S-120/2.5 which works so well as a macro but also as a portrait lens.
    So I guess it really depends a lot which range of lenses one really needs (which I am sure is very different depending on the photographer).
    For my personal use I still own the Nikon for times when I would want to use fast continous AF, or longer Tele. Thats why I keep it but over the last 2 years I didnt really use the Nikon much. It might change when my kids start to do more sports.

  2. #52
    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Austria, close to Vienna
    Posts
    3,871
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    Hi Peter,
    I dont have a D800 only a D700, si I cant judge from own experience, but I frankly couldnt imagine in which regard the Nikon sensor should be better than the S2 sensor...except noise at images over 640ISO.

    System wise/Choice of lenses Nikon offers much more for sure if choice means the quantity to choose from.
    If someone needs very wide, or very long glass, or zooms in a reasonable size I guess Canon and Nikon offer much more.
    But on the other side there is no 50mm Nikon lens which offers the same quality like the 70mm/2.5 S lens (I like 50mm fov a lot),
    there is not short tele lens from Nikon like the S-120/2.5 which works so well as a macro but also as a portrait lens.
    So I guess it really depends a lot which range of lenses one really needs (which I am sure is very different depending on the photographer).
    For my personal use I still own the Nikon for times when I would want to use fast continous AF, or longer Tele. Thats why I keep it but over the last 2 years I didnt really use the Nikon much. It might change when my kids start to do more sports.
    Tom,

    I am not fighting the S2 or the D800 or .... etc.

    My simple comment is that the D800 has a MUCH MORE advanced sensor and processing engine like the S2 (or the H3D39, or ....). I do not like DXO tests, but just have a look and compare the D800 and H3D39 or even IQ140 or IQ180. Will not be possible for the S2 because they did not test it due to some reasons I don't know. And after having compared, then it becomes obvious where the sensor of the D800 is and where all the other sensors are.

    So my point is not that the D800 is better than ...... NO, but the sensor is better and in combination with Expeed3 it is a real competition to also and even an S2.

    Still waiting for my D800E, but I know already I will be very happy with it. And I also do not have all these issues with lenses, I think most of the modern nano coated lenses are pretty much up to the sensor.

    WRT a light tele which can do macro - 2.8/105 VR is the answer, maybe not as stellar as the Leica 120, but I would argue not too far way.

    Why do we have this discussion, just go and get a D800, you still have all your Nikon glass, and try it out yourself. And I am almost sure you will be a very happy camper.

    Peter

    BTW - time for Leica to bring the S3 I think in order to clearly differentiate again and also complete finally their lens lineup. Man how long is this S-lens story already going - sigh!

  3. #53
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Tom,

    I am not fighting the S2 or the D800 or .... etc.

    My simple comment is that the D800 has a MUCH MORE advanced sensor and processing engine like the S2 (or the H3D39, or ....). I do not like DXO tests, but just have a look and compare the D800 and H3D39 or even IQ140 or IQ180. Will not be possible for the S2 because they did not test it due to some reasons I don't know. And after having compared, then it becomes obvious where the sensor of the D800 is and where all the other sensors are.

    So my point is not that the D800 is better than ...... NO, but the sensor is better and in combination with Expeed3 it is a real competition to also and even an S2.

    Still waiting for my D800E, but I know already I will be very happy with it. And I also do not have all these issues with lenses, I think most of the modern nano coated lenses are pretty much up to the sensor.

    WRT a light tele which can do macro - 2.8/105 VR is the answer, maybe not as stellar as the Leica 120, but I would argue not too far way.

    Why do we have this discussion, just go and get a D800, you still have all your Nikon glass, and try it out yourself. And I am almost sure you will be a very happy camper.

    Peter

    BTW - time for Leica to bring the S3 I think in order to clearly differentiate again and also complete finally their lens lineup. Man how long is this S-lens story already going - sigh!
    IMO, this is an example of the relentless reliance on constant technical changes and so called essential upgrades that have little to no impact on one's creative photographic journey.

    Most of us with the S2 haven't even scratched the surface of what the camera and lenses are capable of ... let alone worry about what might be next, or next after that. Some folks seem so distracted with the science of photography, they've forgotten to keep pace with their own art of photography ... or don't have the time because they're busy touting the latest greatest instead of using it. BTW, I've been asked to write a blog entry, and this is the very subject I'm writing about.

    Frankly, in my profession I review a LOT of portfolios ... and there are simply very few cases where the photographer's ideas, and execution outstrips the camera they are using. It is usually the opposite, the camera is better than they are.

    My considered POV now is to live with a camera and extract every once of capability from it that I can while trying to advance my ideas and creativity ... in that pursuit, I haven't run into a "full buffer" with anything I own ... and the S2 is still better than I am able to use it.

    Lens spread in the S2 is a non-issue for me and apparently others. I don't use long lenses that much so the 180 is long enough, and the S24mm is next from Leica ... which is the equivalent of a 19 or 21mm or something like that in 35mm terms ... more than wide enough for my use. To date there has been nothing I could not shoot with the 4 lenses I have, and the 70 & 120 are by far the most used of the 4. I knew what was available going in, and it is just fine for me and is exactly what I need, no more or no less.

    YMMV.

    -Marc

  4. #54
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Godfrey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Near San Jose, California
    Posts
    7,929
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    IMO, this is an example of the relentless reliance on constant technical changes and so called essential upgrades that have little to no impact on one's creative photographic journey.
    ...
    Some folks seem so distracted with the science of photography, they've forgotten to keep pace with their own art of photography ... or don't have the time because they're busy touting the latest greatest instead of using it.
    ...
    My considered POV now is to live with a camera and extract every once of capability from it that I can while trying to advance my ideas and creativity ... in that pursuit, I haven't run into a "full buffer" with anything I own ...
    +1

  5. #55
    Subscriber and Workshop Member MGrayson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    1,575
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    4

    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    Amazingly, these two statements are NOT inconsistent:

    "This camera system is better than I am."

    "A better camera system would help me."

    It does not have to be one or the other. Indeed, you can throw in "I like this camera system more than that one", and STILL have no contradictions.

    --Matt

  6. #56
    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Austria, close to Vienna
    Posts
    3,871
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    Folks,

    a classical example of reading in a post what one wants to read! Read carefully what I said and then think about and do not just start defending what you have so far.

    I reiterate - I neither fight for the S2 (which obviously some continue to do) nor the D800, nor the 5D3 etc. I just said that DSLRs are coming IQ wise into the range of MFD and this at a much lower price with much more options and possibilities.

    Interesting how much many feel offended - although meanwhile we are in a 35mm instead of a MFD thread
    Life is an ever changing journey
    http://photography.tomsu.eu/
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/peter_...tography/sets/
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  7. #57
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    205
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    I would have to concur to a point that the D800 is 'getting close', not at the sensor level but as an overall instrument.

    As good as my H4D is, if the D800 gets on par with the older backs, or performs to 80% of modern MFDs, given the additional flexibility I get from much faster AF, ability to shoot at ISO3200 or higher without too much image degradation, and the D800/D4 being more rugged / weather-resistant to my H4D, and if most of my clients can't tell the difference, it might actually be an interesting (and more portable) alternative / option to my H4D in some cases.
    My images on 500px : http://500px.com/ghoonk
    H4D-40 | Xpan | Leica M9P | Leica M Monochrom | X100 | Hasselblad 500CM | 501CM | 503CXi
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  8. #58
    Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    30
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steen View Post
    Let's take it easy, it's only speculation about a sensor.

    50+ Mp has no place in 35mm format, in my opinion.
    What it takes is a new 33 x 44 mm sensor (like the Pentax 645D) in an S2 form factor body, a new mount and a new lens lineup.
    I wouldn't be surprised if Canon or Nikon or Sony entered Medium Format as the logical next flagship step in a couple of years.
    This makes zero sense to me. The medium format market is a very specialized niche. Even if Canon or Nikon were to take over the entire MFD market (highly unlikely), they'd still sell fewer medium format systems in a year than they do top-end DSLRs in a month. Significantly fewer.

    The investment to produce such a new system meanwhile would be very large - lenses, accessories, and most of all sensors.

    Cramming more millions of pixels into a 35mm sensor would be silly in my humble opinion, there are already too many of them for my taste, they simply get too small.
    So I think the logical answer to the question is that it will more likely be a new Medium Format camera, or something in between 35mm and genuine MF.
    Much more likely that we see newer sensor designs and better processing. Losing the Bayer array could substantially increase detail without requiring any increase in pixel density and the loss of the mirror and mechanical shutter would majorly increase quality as well.

    DH

  9. #59
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    3,623
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Folks,

    a classical example of reading in a post what one wants to read! Read carefully what I said and then think about and do not just start defending what you have so far.

    I reiterate - I neither fight for the S2 (which obviously some continue to do) nor the D800, nor the 5D3 etc. I just said that DSLRs are coming IQ wise into the range of MFD and this at a much lower price with much more options and possibilities.

    Interesting how much many feel offended - although meanwhile we are in a 35mm instead of a MFD thread
    Peter -
    I am not offended at all - I just dont share your opinion regarding sensors.
    Regards, Tom

  10. #60
    Senior Subscriber Member Steen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Denmark, CPH
    Posts
    2,500
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    12

    Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    Quote Originally Posted by dhazeghi View Post

    (...) The medium format market is a very specialized niche. Even if Canon or Nikon were to take over the entire MFD market (highly unlikely), they'd still sell fewer medium format systems in a year than they do top-end DSLRs in a month. Significantly fewer. (...)

    I for one think it depends on the price.

    And I cannot imagine that it will necessarily continue to be so expensive to manufacture e.g. a 33 x 44 mm sensor, I guess it also depends on the amount you can sell (which again depends on the price).

    The manufacturers may be able to find a more competitive price to volume ratio. After all we are talking about electronics where prices tend to decrease over time.

    I just think it may at some point be a more logical step to enlarge the sensor area rather than keeping cramming more and more and smaller and smaller pixels into the same sensor size.

    But I'm sure you are right that sensor technology will go on improving.

  11. #61
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    No offense felt here either Peter, I simply don't agree with your conclusions, and have seen nothing but words rather than images that make the points. Perhaps convincing to the ear, but totally unconvincing to the eye.

    It may be a matter of language ... but the term "not fighting for" implies others are, which is a conclusion solely based on technology, and not enough association with what one's creative objectives may be ... a further indication to me of an odd obsession with technology for the sake of technology.

    -Marc

  12. #62
    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    1,579
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Folks,

    a classical example of reading in a post what one wants to read! Read carefully what I said and then think about and do not just start defending what you have so far.

    I reiterate - I neither fight for the S2 (which obviously some continue to do) nor the D800, nor the 5D3 etc. I just said that DSLRs are coming IQ wise into the range of MFD and this at a much lower price with much more options and possibilities.

    Interesting how much many feel offended - although meanwhile we are in a 35mm instead of a MFD thread
    Mostly just the Leica S2 shooters!

  13. #63
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    Mostly just the Leica S2 shooters!
    Now this is sounding more like a Nikon thread ...
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  14. #64
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Godfrey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Near San Jose, California
    Posts
    7,929
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    I think this notion of a D800 "getting close" to medium format ignores the true difference between MFD and 35mm-derivative digital ... which is the format dynamics themselves.

    How well the sensors perform, how many pixels, etc. are all really irrelevant at one point or another. What sets medium format apart from 35mm and from large format is the format itself, which implies a different coupling of field of view to depth of field driven by the dimensions of the format. THAT's why I like to work with the M9 over the M8, or the Pentax 645 over a Pentax K5. Those are the significant dynamics of the imaging, not whether one has more or less pixels than the other.
    Godfrey - GDGPhoto Flickr Stream
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  15. #65
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    333
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    How well the sensors perform, how many pixels, etc. are all really irrelevant at one point or another. What sets medium format apart from 35mm and from large format is the format itself, which implies a different coupling of field of view to depth of field driven by the dimensions of the format. THAT's why I like to work with the M9 over the M8, or the Pentax 645 over a Pentax K5. Those are the significant dynamics of the imaging, not whether one has more or less pixels than the other.
    That's certainly one point of view, but it's not why everyone chooses a format. I've shot 4x5 longer than anything else, and depth of field issues have only been relevant to my work as an inconvenience. I'm never using selective focus. So theoritically, a smaller format could equal 4x5 for my purposes.

  16. #66
    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Austria, close to Vienna
    Posts
    3,871
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    Well all these format discussions - I think that even more important than the advantages / disadvantages a certain format brings is, how big or how small a camera (system) can be built. We all know that too big is not good (heavy and clumsy and not very easy to use for action), as well as too small (small starts for me where I cannot comfortably operate a camera with my fingers).

    And only then comes the format question.

    Sure that if one really wants to achieve highest IQ, then nothing will top a tech cam with attached MFDB. But this is a different area of photography as most of us do in their daily job/practice. I also like to work with a tech cam and play around and optimize all before I take the shot, but can you imagine photographing my 9 months old daughter like that? I can't.

    So I think that the D800 (or any other camera offering the D800 feature set) just hits the best in many areas, especially combined with high IQ.

  17. #67
    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Austria, close to Vienna
    Posts
    3,871
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    No offense felt here either Peter, I simply don't agree with your conclusions, and have seen nothing but words rather than images that make the points. Perhaps convincing to the ear, but totally unconvincing to the eye.

    It may be a matter of language ... but the term "not fighting for" implies others are, which is a conclusion solely based on technology, and not enough association with what one's creative objectives may be ... a further indication to me of an odd obsession with technology for the sake of technology.

    -Marc
    Marc, should we do a count how many cameras an systems you bought (changed) over the past 2 years? I think you would top me for sure!

    I understand your love for the S2 and quite frankly, if I could afford and justify one, I would also go for it. Simply I have no business I can justify it for and am not willing to spend the money to just own it for pure pleasure - there are other pleasures I prefer before that

    So the D800 comes just right in here with unbelievable IQ at this high pixels count and this is what I will leverage. This system will bring me close to the S2 IQ, with much higher flexibility (I am talking about 1 or 2 zooms for it) at a much better price point (1/10) of a comparable S2 system.

    What would you do in my place?
    Life is an ever changing journey
    http://photography.tomsu.eu/
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/peter_...tography/sets/
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  18. #68
    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Austria, close to Vienna
    Posts
    3,871
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    Peter -
    I am not offended at all - I just dont share your opinion regarding sensors.
    Regards, Tom
    Tom,

    did you have a look to all the not so perfect image samples we have seen till now from the D800? WRT that I only can say that this sensor is superb and only hope that Leica would use the same sensor in an upcoming M10 and the same technology in an upcoming S3. So convinced I am.

    Plus of course with an upgraded Maestro processing engine.

    Also this sensor easily plays my old H3D39 sensor on the wall. You finally have to accept that the sensor in the S2 is a 5 year old design and 5 years in his area mean a lot! This is nothing bad at all, but finally we have to accept that.

    Sure everybody can say that the technology is developed enough and stay with it for some years or forever, but knowing you (from your posts) I rather doubt that you belong to this breed of people. I rather consider myself meanwhile of having become more conservative (whatever that means)

    Best

    Peter

  19. #69
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    3,623
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    Mostly just the Leica S2 shooters!
    Since you have justified that you did not get the S2 earlier in the thread I justified/comitted that I do like the S2-IQ.

    Now seriously. I think options are allways great so new sensors are great and in the end the only thing that counts is that something works fine for the user/owner for whatever reason. What I DO NOT LIKE is to discuss if something IS better than something else, thats why I sometimes respond to such statements saying I dont believe it is better.

    I have tried so many times to compare cameras and systems, and there are so many factors included that it is near impossible for me to do this in a scientific way.
    The best thing is for me to shoot a system for some time, look at the real world results and see if I like the images.
    This includes also how good a camera works for me when taking the image (for example I feel big viewfinders are good for my compostion and framing).

    I know this is a strange unscientific word but for me I like images where I feel they do not look "digital". Images where you look at it and say it looks deep, 3d, natural, powerfull. Sometimes you look at an image and even though you cant find anything wrong technical, it still looks like a (falt, dull) digital image. And there are other images where you look at it and feel you are "in".

    And without being able to explain why - this seems to happen more often to ME (I can only talk about me) with images from medium format and also shots from the M9 than with images from DSLRS.
    Thats why I use the equipment I use.
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  20. #70
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    3,623
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Tom,

    did you have a look to all the not so perfect image samples we have seen till now from the D800? WRT that I only can say that this sensor is superb and only hope that Leica would use the same sensor in an upcoming M10 and the same technology in an upcoming S3. So convinced I am.

    Plus of course with an upgraded Maestro processing engine.

    Also this sensor easily plays my old H3D39 sensor on the wall. You finally have to accept that the sensor in the S2 is a 5 year old design and 5 years in his area mean a lot! This is nothing bad at all, but finally we have to accept that.

    Sure everybody can say that the technology is developed enough and stay with it for some years or forever, but knowing you (from your posts) I rather doubt that you belong to this breed of people. I rather consider myself meanwhile of having become more conservative (whatever that means)

    Best

    Peter
    Hi Peter,
    and if the sensor in the S2 was 20 years old. What counts for me is what I see and if I like it.
    I have owned the d2h,d2x,d200,d300,d3,d3x and today the d700. So I have seen several steps from sensor generation to the next.
    If I sometimes look on old images I still believe that the "old" d2h and d2x sensors were maybe more to my taste than what followed later on.
    I sold the d3x 2 years ago because the images didnt "wow" me as much as the Sinar 22MP back I had and the Leica M9 did. SO I thought too much money for a d3x wich is not used much and I replaced it with a d700 for the occasional actipon shots.

    I guess the D800 or the 50MP d4x (if this happens) are a big step forward, but I also dont believe in wonders.
    Saying the D800 is great is one thing where I would agree, saying MF sensors are outdated is something else, where I can not agree.

    I have to admit however that I recently used the D700 after a longer pause and thought -wow, that fast AF is nice, very nice. Still my favorite image from that day came from the M9.

    So see, you better give up to convince me, I am stuburn.

  21. #71
    Not Available
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    471
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    For a while I too thought that more than 20 or so MP in a 35mm digital camera would be counter productive, but looking at the results of the D800 I have to say that that is not the case. They managed to cram 36 MP in and improve dynamic range. Auto focus, fast and clear as day live view, uncompressed video out, 4 fps and more fps in crop mode... And for half the price of a DF body that doesn't even have a sensor......

    Format size does count, but being able to shoot film I think is more empowering from a creative stand point than the modest format gain from FF 35mm DSLR to MF 645 DSLR.

    If I really want the look of medium format that really does look significantly different to a top of the line DSLR I'll choose the Mamiya RZ, Fuji gx680 or 4x5. Fuji gx680 being the first choice.

  22. #72
    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    1,579
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    Since you have justified that you did not get the S2 earlier in the thread I justified/comitted that I do like the S2-IQ.

    Now seriously. I think options are allways great so new sensors are great and in the end the only thing that counts is that something works fine for the user/owner for whatever reason. What I DO NOT LIKE is to discuss if something IS better than something else, thats why I sometimes respond to such statements saying I dont believe it is better.

    I have tried so many times to compare cameras and systems, and there are so many factors included that it is near impossible for me to do this in a scientific way.
    The best thing is for me to shoot a system for some time, look at the real world results and see if I like the images.
    This includes also how good a camera works for me when taking the image (for example I feel big viewfinders are good for my compostion and framing).

    I know this is a strange unscientific word but for me I like images where I feel they do not look "digital". Images where you look at it and say it looks deep, 3d, natural, powerfull. Sometimes you look at an image and even though you cant find anything wrong technical, it still looks like a (falt, dull) digital image. And there are other images where you look at it and feel you are "in".

    And without being able to explain why - this seems to happen more often to ME (I can only talk about me) with images from medium format and also shots from the M9 than with images from DSLRS.
    Thats why I use the equipment I use.
    Thanks for your opinion. It is most certainly valid as it pertains to your experience. Nobody is saying the S2 can't compete, it's just for the price to quality ratio, the D800 is close, very close. The free thinking ideas don't always mesh here because the "old boys," circle the wagons when their brands are painted in the most un-flattering way. Forums are great places to exchanges ideas, critiques, and in some cases, vent! I'm glad you enjoy the S2, it is a great camera, just not for me.

  23. #73
    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    1,579
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    Quote Originally Posted by FredBGG View Post
    For a while I too thought that more than 20 or so MP in a 35mm digital camera would be counter productive, but looking at the results of the D800 I have to say that that is not the case. They managed to cram 36 MP in and improve dynamic range. Auto focus, fast and clear as day live view, uncompressed video out, 4 fps and more fps in crop mode... And for half the price of a DF body that doesn't even have a sensor......

    Format size does count, but being able to shoot film I think is more empowering from a creative stand point than the modest format gain from FF 35mm DSLR to MF 645 DSLR.

    If I really want the look of medium format that really does look significantly different to a top of the line DSLR I'll choose the Mamiya RZ, Fuji gx680 or 4x5. Fuji gx680 being the first choice.
    Nicely stated Fred!

    Perhaps, you could post more images soon of lower MP cameras and film too. Your photography and ideas seem to resonate with me and I think its refreshing to have both sides of an issue represented.
    Last edited by johnnygoesdigital; 2nd April 2012 at 09:16.

  24. #74
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    Thanks for your opinion. It is most certainly valid as it pertains to your experience. Nobody is saying the S2 can't compete, it's just for the price to quality ratio, the D800 is close, very close. The free thinking ideas don't always mesh here because the "old boys," circle the wagons when their brands are painted in the most un-flattering way. Forums are great places to exchanges ideas, critiques, and in some cases, vent! I'm glad you enjoy the S2, it is a great camera, just not for me.
    It is "close" to your way of thinking and in your opinion ... which is fine, for you ... glad it is.

    For others, it is not "close", and especially not "very close" ... but each of us can only speak to what and how we see, just as you do. For me, the difference between Leica optics and how they render aesthetically compared to Nikon's offerings is like from Earth to Pluto, not Earth to the moon However, I've always held that opinion and nothing I currently see or have used from Nikon has altered that opinion.

    Also note that I have extensively used a Nikon D3X with each of the best optics they had at the time including many lenses that are still current and recommended for the D800 ... 14-24, 24-70 and the 200/2 VR. I see nothing so far that changes how the lenses make images by adding 12 meg to the D3X, even if it is newer sensor technology ... I have always preferred the concept of micro-contrast for acuity of image such as employed by Leica, Schneider and Zeiss compared to other optical philosophies (which is why for 35mm work, I dumped all Nikon gear and got a A900 with all Zeiss designed AF optics). If you do not buy into that concept there's nothing that can be said to alter that, and frankly I don't care if you do or not.

    "Free thinking ideas are not welcome" and "old boys circling the wagons" feels very dismissive of other opinions that are contrary to yours. All each of us are trying to do is select the tools that best help us express our aesthetic sensibilities or even biases ... after all it is our work, not someone else's.

    The price disparity is nothing new (especially regarding Leica), and harping on it means nothing to those who have chosen, could afford to choose as they like, and got what they wanted. I feel the exact same way about lighting gear BTW ... where the same type of debates rage daily. Folks are free to select PCB lighting, and I'll stick with Profoto for the same reasons I select certain camera's and lenses.

    All the best to what ever you select ... let's make images!

    -Marc

  25. #75
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    333
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    I'm very happy that over the last couple of decades, as my work has matured, the finer distinctions between one piece of gear and another have become increasingly unimportant. I put more energy into the question "does this serve the vision?" and less into "is this the very best techincal quality that's theoretically possible?"

    To put it in perspective, German MTF charts used to be a hobby of mine, and I spent 18 months formulating my own black and white film developer. That kind of energy now goes into looking, studying ideas, and producing work (ok ... I'm not completely over it all. This last month has involved way too much geeking out over threads like this).

    The short of it is, I'm relieved to be finding a camera like the d800 "good enough," becuse it will allow me to do more work, and to spend more time thinking about issues of consequence, than my 4x5 ever did. Not that I'm getting rid of that camera, or that the d800 will be an appropriate substitute all the time. But at the very least, it has earned itself a chair at the debate table, and for much of my serious work, it will go beyond "very close."

  26. #76
    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    1,579
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    It is "close" to your way of thinking and in your opinion ... which is fine, for you ... glad it is.

    For others, it is not "close", and especially not "very close" ... but each of us can only speak to what and how we see, just as you do. For me, the difference between Leica optics and how they render aesthetically compared to Nikon's offerings is like from Earth to Pluto, not Earth to the moon However, I've always held that opinion and nothing I currently see or have used from Nikon has altered that opinion.

    Also note that I have extensively used a Nikon D3X with each of the best optics they had at the time including many lenses that are still current and recommended for the D800 ... 14-24, 24-70 and the 200/2 VR. I see nothing so far that changes how the lenses make images by adding 12 meg to the D3X, even if it is newer sensor technology ... I have always preferred the concept of micro-contrast for acuity of image such as employed by Leica, Schneider and Zeiss compared to other optical philosophies (which is why for 35mm work, I dumped all Nikon gear and got a A900 with all Zeiss designed AF optics). If you do not buy into that concept there's nothing that can be said to alter that, and frankly I don't care if you do or not.

    "Free thinking ideas are not welcome" and "old boys circling the wagons" feels very dismissive of other opinions that are contrary to yours. All each of us are trying to do is select the tools that best help us express our aesthetic sensibilities or even biases ... after all it is our work, not someone else's.

    The price disparity is nothing new (especially regarding Leica), and harping on it means nothing to those who have chosen, could afford to choose as they like, and got what they wanted. I feel the exact same way about lighting gear BTW ... where the same type of debates rage daily. Folks are free to select PCB lighting, and I'll stick with Profoto for the same reasons I select certain camera's and lenses.

    All the best to what ever you select ... let's make images!

    -Marc
    Marc-

    You make excellent points, Whenever I, or others disagree, most believe it's because we have an ax to grind, which is usually not the case. I've even mentioned before, that I was PM'd, by a member, suggesting I should not disagree with too much here and follow the flow... hmm, not likely. Opinions are not necessarily based on fact, but a large number of inputs here, suggest a majority of people think they do. I keep my posts civil, and based on my experience only. I would encourage others to not be so offended if someone disagrees, but expensive camera purchases get personal, and i'll try to keep that in mind too.

    With that in mind... For the D800, I'll shoot usually with Zeiss primes only, although the 60mm nikkor- micro 2.8 is a decent contender!. Lenses are most certainly the weak link in any sensor combo, and to your credit, Leica is the best.

  27. #77
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    Marc-

    You make excellent points, Whenever I, or others disagree, most believe it's because we have an ax to grind, which is usually not the case. I've even mentioned before, that I was PM'd, by a member, suggesting I should not disagree with too much here and follow the flow... hmm, not likely. Opinions are not necessarily based on fact, but a large number of inputs here, suggest a majority of people think they do. I keep my posts civil, and based on my experience only. I would encourage others to not be so offended if someone disagrees, but expensive camera purchases get personal, and i'll try to keep that in mind too.

    With that in mind... For the D800, I'll shoot usually with Zeiss primes only, although the 60mm nikkor- micro 2.8 is a decent contender!. Lenses are most certainly the weak link in any sensor combo, and to your credit, Leica is the best.
    Actually, we have some agreement here ... when I shot the D3X (and D3, and F6 for B&W film), I had a whole set of the Zeiss ZF optics and DID prefer them as many others do. The 50/2 specifically was stellar in its rendering ... alas, my eyes couldn't manually perform up to the lenses even with a new split diagonal bright focusing screen and large excellent magnifier. Thus the move to AF Zeiss lenses for the Sony.

    Prior to all this, I always shot with Contax cameras including the ill fated FF 6 meg ND, and then adapted many Zeiss lenses to a Canon FF camera ... CY like the 21/2.8, 28/2, 50/1.2 and 85/1.2 ... but again my eyes eventually manually failed the lenses

    When I sprung for the S2 it was a retirement gift to myself, yet I took over a year before committing to it because the drive was for the lenses and there weren't enough of them available. I fully expected much higher meg 35mm DSLRs to be coming and wasn't surprised by the D800 at all, and fully expect Sony to follow ... didn't matter, I was after the Leica lenses and the look they produce. IF the S2 had been manual focus, I wouldn't have even given it a second thought.

    -Marc

  28. #78
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Godfrey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Near San Jose, California
    Posts
    7,929
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    Quote Originally Posted by paulraphael View Post
    I'm very happy that over the last couple of decades, as my work has matured, the finer distinctions between one piece of gear and another have become increasingly unimportant. I put more energy into the question "does this serve the vision?" ...
    I have to +1 this bit.

    My old photo mentor often used to say there were only three important things to great photography:

    - where to stand
    - what to point the camera at
    - when to press the shutter button

  29. #79
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    3,623
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    I have to +1 this bit.

    My old photo mentor often used to say there were only three important things to great photography:

    - where to stand
    - what to point the camera at
    - when to press the shutter button
    and thats why you guys read and post in a thread called "52MP D4X"?

  30. #80
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    I have to +1 this bit.

    My old photo mentor often used to say there were only three important things to great photography:

    - where to stand
    - what to point the camera at
    - when to press the shutter button
    You missed one . Get Lucky. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  31. #81
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    333
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    and thats why you guys read and post in a thread called "52MP D4X"?
    Well, touché, obviously.

    But I'm not advocating ignoring the nuts and bolts. Just taking the emphasis off the hamster wheel of chasing that last couple of percentage points of ... whatever it might be. That becomes an avocation in itself. The same energy (and funds) can be directed toward doing the work.

    I'm an artist, so funds are predictably limited more than if I were a top-tier commercial photographer or law firm partner with a hobby. So the questions are about doing an honest cost/benefit analysis. It's not "can I see the difference between this print and that print?"—of course I can. Anyone here can. I'm asking, "is the difference between this print and that print worth the money, time, and energy that could be spent on other aspects of this endeavor?" Framing it this way has led me make different choices than I did ten years ago.

    I'm bumming around this forum specifically because questions like this. I'm trying to improve my work by downsizing. I'm seeing the first dslr that looks capable doing what I'll ask of it, and am excited about the way it's going to effect my workflow and productivity. And like a lot of people, I'm doing a lot of speculating about it before it finds its way into my mailbox.
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  32. #82
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    3,623
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    Quote Originally Posted by paulraphael View Post
    Well, touché, obviously.

    But I'm not advocating ignoring the nuts and bolts. Just taking the emphasis off the hamster wheel of chasing that last couple of percentage points of ... whatever it might be. That becomes an avocation in itself. The same energy (and funds) can be directed toward doing the work.

    I'm an artist, so funds are predictably limited more than if I were a top-tier commercial photographer or law firm partner with a hobby. So the questions are about doing an honest cost/benefit analysis. It's not "can I see the difference between this print and that print?"—of course I can. Anyone here can. I'm asking, "is the difference between this print and that print worth the money, time, and energy that could be spent on other aspects of this endeavor?" Framing it this way has led me make different choices than I did ten years ago.

    I'm bumming around this forum specifically because questions like this. I'm trying to improve my work by downsizing. I'm seeing the first dslr that looks capable doing what I'll ask of it, and am excited about the way it's going to effect my workflow and productivity. And like a lot of people, I'm doing a lot of speculating about it before it finds its way into my mailbox.
    Well, in the end I am not here to defend the S2 or MF (even if I sometimes do), but because I am -like you -interested how good the D800 and an eventually coming D4x could work and what others think about those cameras.

  33. #83
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    Actually, this has been a somewhat refreshing thread, and I for one applaud the notion of concentrating on pursuing the art of photography as it relates to gear ... as nicely stated by paulraphael.

    While I am at a stage of life and past success that allows me to select any damned thing I want, that success (advertising creative) was built on the shoulders of being an artist. As such, it is not beyond my memory that such things as a Leica S2 would have been as remote a possibility as winning the Mega Lotto. In art school I often had to select between a tube of paint or having lunch ... the paint always won. Sometimes I'd play cards in the student lounge and either have both, or neither.

    Even today with the option of selecting anything, there are still "artistic" priorities that force decisions ... I recently sold off some exotic lenses that many would die to own, and re-invested all the proceeds into additional lighting equipment ... because the impact on my photographic art and commercial work would be far more visible than another f/stop or 20 more mega pixels.

    So, I totally agree that we should set aside the notions of "better than" which is subjective to each person's creative objectives and/or end use, and concentrate on what something can do, so people can see if it fits or not.

    Also keep in mind that some of the criteria argued here is meaningless to some other photographers. I don't shoot 9 month olds and the kids running around the backyard with my studio camera ... and frankly wouldn't invest in a 36meg Nikon to do that either. When I shoot in the studio it is always tethered, all manual, using T/S and often a different finder ... and it's for clients that are pickier than most on this forum, they inspect for perfection and bitch a storm if too much retouching is required ... and how they use the same shots can range from the web to 8' commercial prints lining the walls of a trade show booth with viewers inspecting the product details at nose length. The day I stop doing that work is the day I can sell off my 60 meg MFD system.

    Choices are need driven ... some need more, and some have other more pressing priorities.

    -Marc

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •